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12 Sep 12
11:25
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Date Joined:
05 Jan 10
Tony Evans@TonyEvansTimes
First news trickling out and it's ugly. Blood taken from bodies to test for alcohol. If none, they checked for criminal records.
First news trickling out and it's ugly. Blood taken from bodies to test for alcohol. If none, they checked for criminal records.
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This is the Full Report it's in PDF form so it'll take a short while to download. 395 pages.
http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1213/hc05/0581/0581.pdf
http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1213/hc05/0581/0581.pdf
just watching Newsnight - i'd forgotten about Jack Straw : he stopped todays enquiry from happening 13 years ago.
He's complicit in this.
He's complicit in this.
Anaglogs Daughter
Excepts from Irvine Patnick statement that led to The Suns "The Truth" headline
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/SYP000017520001.pdf
After PM´s statement...... I take this is all sh1te now
Excepts from Irvine Patnick statement that led to The Suns "The Truth" headline
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/SYP000017520001.pdf
After PM´s statement...... I take this is all sh1te now
Bettor - congratulations, has the penny finally dropped?!!
Yes, the police fabricated stories, perpetuated myths and changed statements which portrayed their actions in a negative light. In short they conducted a smear campaign against the LFC fans to save their own skins.
Yes, the police fabricated stories, perpetuated myths and changed statements which portrayed their actions in a negative light. In short they conducted a smear campaign against the LFC fans to save their own skins.
Problem is VS the timescale of 23 years alone presents problems. Some will claim Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, others maybe dead or seriously ill.
Cameron did say after Truth must come Justice so it will be interesting to see what develops.
Cameron did say after Truth must come Justice so it will be interesting to see what develops.
I think,and hope,that,at the very least,the inquest verdicts will be overturned.
I went to this game with my dad albeit as a Forest fan and in the opposite end....... to say this could have happened to anybody at any ground around the country at the time is an understatement.
While far from being a Liverpool fan myself i think anybody commenting on this event should read this written in 2009 on a Forest forum to see what effect it had on just one individual who attended that event that day...........I have added this to a thread on the chit chat forum but thought i would add it here seeing as folk are talking about it i just thought it would be good to get a different perspective on it other than from a Liverpool or government source about the feeling on the day.......
********************************************
The time has come to put any petty squabbles aside.
On this day twenty years ago, I stood with some friends on the Spion Kop at Hillsborough.
From a cold, misty start in Nottingham, it turned quickly into a beautiful day. A gorgeous, sunny, warm, blue sky day. After last season's disappointment, I looked forward to a positive result today.
Pretty much first into the Spion Kop when they opened the gates at 12. Noticed that when the 5 of us arrived we outnumbered the stewards by 4.
Gets to 2 o'clock, and it's getting busy in our end. 100 yards away, it appeared that most Liverpool fans hadn't arrived yet, since there was plenty of concrete visible in the left and right sections of the "away" end.
"International Rescue" by Fuzzbox played on the Tannoy. It got busier and tighter in our end. Liverpool fans were still to arrive by the looks of things.
I remember our fans me and friends included chanting "What's it like to have no fans" and similar...it was clear that few of the dedicated Scousers had arrived, such was the empty space visible either side of the goal at the other end.
But there comes a point when having stood in, and looked at terraces for many years before this day, you realise that the middle section opposite you is rather densely packed.
Meanwhile where you are, you're having trouble getting the Polo mints out of your pocket, owing to the press of people round you. Stood in FRONT of a crush barrier (thank you, Dad, for teaching me THAT one early in my terrace life), you're uncomfortably squashed.
The players emerge, the teams are announced over the Tannoy, and you're ready. I can barely move, such is the weight of people round me. At the other end, it's apparent that a large number of Liverpool fans are going to miss at least the start of the game cos there's still acres of terrace concrete visible from our end.
The game kicks off. Early chances cause the usual swaying on the terraces. The crush barriers divide the flowing waves of humanity into horizontal blocks. 'Twas ever thus.
Forest force two corners in the opening couple of minutes and the expectation grows, only for a Liverpool break to dampen the spirit. A shot from Liverpool's Peter Beardsley goes narrowly over the crossbar, and the usual surge behind the Scouse goal.
Only this one doesn't end horizontally. For a moment the people stop flowing forward, then the horizontal line breaks forward in a curve.
Around this time, we can see Liverpool fans in the upper tier seats reaching down and pulling fans up from the terrace below presumably, we think, to afford them a better view.
"What a bunch of w*****s!!" cry 20,000 standing Forest fans.
A few Liverpool fans start climbing over the front fence of the terrace and jump on to the area behind the goal. "What a bunch on w*****s!!"
More fans lifted up, more fans over the fence.
A policeman runs onto the pitch and says a few words to the referee, who leads the players off the pitch.
******************************************
It is six minutes past three o'clock, on Saturday the 15th of April, 1989.
******************************************
In my pocket is a small transistor radio. I manage to get it out and turn it on to Peter Jones who's doing the commentary from this game on Radio 2 (is now Radio 5Live).
They are as bewildered as we are. Overcrowding. Fighting. Pitch Invasion. They don't know.
Ten or fifteen minutes later, with seemingly hundreds or possibly thousands of people straning to listen to my radio's little speaker, somes the awful report that..."we have unconfirmed rumours that three people have been seriously hurt in a crush behind the Liverpool goal".
The chanting from the Forest end dies down, an ambulance appears from our right, and as the number of Liverpool supporters on the pitch grows, a line of policemen is deployed to separate 'them' from 'us'.
We watch helplessly as injured people are brought towards our end of the pitch by fans and police, and laid down in the penalty area in front of us to recover. We can barely move in our end. My friend next to me was a qualified First Aider his parents both Doctors. Even if he'd been able to get to the front of our end, it was clear that no-one was being allowed out of our end for any reason.
On my radio, the awful news breaks that..."...perhaps one person may have been killed and several others injured in a crush...but these are unconfirmed reports".
We stand and watch as more and more injured fans are laid out to recover in the penalty area before us.
******************************************
To my dying day I will remember a Liverpool fan in a white shirt being carried by 6 people, on a ripped-down yellow advertising hoarding. His black jacket was draped over him. As the carriers crossed the half-way line, the jacket slipped off and fell to the floor.
His bearers stopped, and carefully placed the "stretcher" on the ground. They picked up the coat, and with great dignity placed it carefully over the poor bugger's head.
He was then carefully and respectfully picked up and carried to the area in front of us, and carefully placed on the ground, his coat moved to cover his head.
I think it was at that point that the full enormity of the situation dawned on all of us.
That guy was dead.
Dead.
And he had been placed with the 40-50-60-or-so of the other "injured", "recovering" people.
They were dead too.
All of them.
Dead.
And there we were chanting abuse over their heads for the last half hour.
Dead.
All of them.
Meanwhile the radio kept on with the doom-laden reports of "perhaps three people have been killed...." For once in my life, I knew better than the radio.
Come 4.15 or so, finally, FINALLY the PA cracks into life. "This is Kenny Dalglish."
Fifty-five thousand people in the stadium. Apart from some distant cries from the other end, you could have heard a pin drop.
"This is Kenny Dalglish. Clearly a major disaster is happening here.... " The rest of the speech is immaterial. It was met with warm applause from all remaining fans. He asked us to be patient for a while as the emergency services dealt with the injured, and that shortly the exit gates would be opened, and would we all please make our way calmly out of the ground and go home.
The radio is still telling me that perhaps 3 people have been killed, but this isn't confirmed.
Half-past four, the exit gates are opened, and 20,000 shocked, stunned, quiet Forest fans make their sad, disbelieveing way to their cars, buses, vans.
On the radio, I think Peter Jones had realised what had happened. Barely able to restrain his own tears, he told a stunned nation that..."a young lad, about 9 years old has just come up to our commentary position, and asked if he can use our phone to call his mum, because he has lost his Dad.
Of course he can phone."
******************************************
"BBC Radio Sheffield, the news at Five O'Clock.
South Yorkshire Ambulance Service has confirmed that seventy-two football fans have been killed at this afternoon's..................................."
We were at the traffic lights, in front of probably ten thousand Forest fans, all going home. I think most of us had that radio station on.
I got out of the car, and tried desperately to breathe in fresh air.
As I looked down the road, I wasn't the only person throwing up.
Not quite sure how we got home that night, but I remain grateful to my friend Sunil for getting us home.
A bit of tea, and news and Match Of The Day on TV. No music, no fanfare. Just a dark screen, and a few still images:
Fans sitting, shell-shocked.
Ambulances.
People hugging.
People crying.
Metal fencing.
Ninety-five fans died that afternoon.
Fans like me.
In the ground early, in order to get a good place to stand.
Killed by the unrelenting weight of humanity crushing the life and breath out of them.
The ninety-sixth victim, Tony Bland, died about three years later when his life support machine was turned off.
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While far from being a Liverpool fan myself i think anybody commenting on this event should read this written in 2009 on a Forest forum to see what effect it had on just one individual who attended that event that day...........I have added this to a thread on the chit chat forum but thought i would add it here seeing as folk are talking about it i just thought it would be good to get a different perspective on it other than from a Liverpool or government source about the feeling on the day.......
********************************************
The time has come to put any petty squabbles aside.
On this day twenty years ago, I stood with some friends on the Spion Kop at Hillsborough.
From a cold, misty start in Nottingham, it turned quickly into a beautiful day. A gorgeous, sunny, warm, blue sky day. After last season's disappointment, I looked forward to a positive result today.
Pretty much first into the Spion Kop when they opened the gates at 12. Noticed that when the 5 of us arrived we outnumbered the stewards by 4.
Gets to 2 o'clock, and it's getting busy in our end. 100 yards away, it appeared that most Liverpool fans hadn't arrived yet, since there was plenty of concrete visible in the left and right sections of the "away" end.
"International Rescue" by Fuzzbox played on the Tannoy. It got busier and tighter in our end. Liverpool fans were still to arrive by the looks of things.
I remember our fans me and friends included chanting "What's it like to have no fans" and similar...it was clear that few of the dedicated Scousers had arrived, such was the empty space visible either side of the goal at the other end.
But there comes a point when having stood in, and looked at terraces for many years before this day, you realise that the middle section opposite you is rather densely packed.
Meanwhile where you are, you're having trouble getting the Polo mints out of your pocket, owing to the press of people round you. Stood in FRONT of a crush barrier (thank you, Dad, for teaching me THAT one early in my terrace life), you're uncomfortably squashed.
The players emerge, the teams are announced over the Tannoy, and you're ready. I can barely move, such is the weight of people round me. At the other end, it's apparent that a large number of Liverpool fans are going to miss at least the start of the game cos there's still acres of terrace concrete visible from our end.
The game kicks off. Early chances cause the usual swaying on the terraces. The crush barriers divide the flowing waves of humanity into horizontal blocks. 'Twas ever thus.
Forest force two corners in the opening couple of minutes and the expectation grows, only for a Liverpool break to dampen the spirit. A shot from Liverpool's Peter Beardsley goes narrowly over the crossbar, and the usual surge behind the Scouse goal.
Only this one doesn't end horizontally. For a moment the people stop flowing forward, then the horizontal line breaks forward in a curve.
Around this time, we can see Liverpool fans in the upper tier seats reaching down and pulling fans up from the terrace below presumably, we think, to afford them a better view.
"What a bunch of w*****s!!" cry 20,000 standing Forest fans.
A few Liverpool fans start climbing over the front fence of the terrace and jump on to the area behind the goal. "What a bunch on w*****s!!"
More fans lifted up, more fans over the fence.
A policeman runs onto the pitch and says a few words to the referee, who leads the players off the pitch.
******************************************
It is six minutes past three o'clock, on Saturday the 15th of April, 1989.
******************************************
In my pocket is a small transistor radio. I manage to get it out and turn it on to Peter Jones who's doing the commentary from this game on Radio 2 (is now Radio 5Live).
They are as bewildered as we are. Overcrowding. Fighting. Pitch Invasion. They don't know.
Ten or fifteen minutes later, with seemingly hundreds or possibly thousands of people straning to listen to my radio's little speaker, somes the awful report that..."we have unconfirmed rumours that three people have been seriously hurt in a crush behind the Liverpool goal".
The chanting from the Forest end dies down, an ambulance appears from our right, and as the number of Liverpool supporters on the pitch grows, a line of policemen is deployed to separate 'them' from 'us'.
We watch helplessly as injured people are brought towards our end of the pitch by fans and police, and laid down in the penalty area in front of us to recover. We can barely move in our end. My friend next to me was a qualified First Aider his parents both Doctors. Even if he'd been able to get to the front of our end, it was clear that no-one was being allowed out of our end for any reason.
On my radio, the awful news breaks that..."...perhaps one person may have been killed and several others injured in a crush...but these are unconfirmed reports".
We stand and watch as more and more injured fans are laid out to recover in the penalty area before us.
******************************************
To my dying day I will remember a Liverpool fan in a white shirt being carried by 6 people, on a ripped-down yellow advertising hoarding. His black jacket was draped over him. As the carriers crossed the half-way line, the jacket slipped off and fell to the floor.
His bearers stopped, and carefully placed the "stretcher" on the ground. They picked up the coat, and with great dignity placed it carefully over the poor bugger's head.
He was then carefully and respectfully picked up and carried to the area in front of us, and carefully placed on the ground, his coat moved to cover his head.
I think it was at that point that the full enormity of the situation dawned on all of us.
That guy was dead.
Dead.
And he had been placed with the 40-50-60-or-so of the other "injured", "recovering" people.
They were dead too.
All of them.
Dead.
And there we were chanting abuse over their heads for the last half hour.
Dead.
All of them.
Meanwhile the radio kept on with the doom-laden reports of "perhaps three people have been killed...." For once in my life, I knew better than the radio.
Come 4.15 or so, finally, FINALLY the PA cracks into life. "This is Kenny Dalglish."
Fifty-five thousand people in the stadium. Apart from some distant cries from the other end, you could have heard a pin drop.
"This is Kenny Dalglish. Clearly a major disaster is happening here.... " The rest of the speech is immaterial. It was met with warm applause from all remaining fans. He asked us to be patient for a while as the emergency services dealt with the injured, and that shortly the exit gates would be opened, and would we all please make our way calmly out of the ground and go home.
The radio is still telling me that perhaps 3 people have been killed, but this isn't confirmed.
Half-past four, the exit gates are opened, and 20,000 shocked, stunned, quiet Forest fans make their sad, disbelieveing way to their cars, buses, vans.
On the radio, I think Peter Jones had realised what had happened. Barely able to restrain his own tears, he told a stunned nation that..."a young lad, about 9 years old has just come up to our commentary position, and asked if he can use our phone to call his mum, because he has lost his Dad.
Of course he can phone."
******************************************
"BBC Radio Sheffield, the news at Five O'Clock.
South Yorkshire Ambulance Service has confirmed that seventy-two football fans have been killed at this afternoon's..................................."
We were at the traffic lights, in front of probably ten thousand Forest fans, all going home. I think most of us had that radio station on.
I got out of the car, and tried desperately to breathe in fresh air.
As I looked down the road, I wasn't the only person throwing up.
Not quite sure how we got home that night, but I remain grateful to my friend Sunil for getting us home.
A bit of tea, and news and Match Of The Day on TV. No music, no fanfare. Just a dark screen, and a few still images:
Fans sitting, shell-shocked.
Ambulances.
People hugging.
People crying.
Metal fencing.
Ninety-five fans died that afternoon.
Fans like me.
In the ground early, in order to get a good place to stand.
Killed by the unrelenting weight of humanity crushing the life and breath out of them.
The ninety-sixth victim, Tony Bland, died about three years later when his life support machine was turned off.
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| report block user
1st time poster exposing himself as either a complete c0ck or really feckin stupid!
Metal fencing.
Ninety-five fans died that afternoon.
Fans like me.
In the ground early, in order to get a good place to stand.
Killed by the unrelenting weight of humanity crushing the life and breath out of them.
The ninety-sixth victim, Tony Bland, died about three years later when his life support machine was turned off.
I remember the SUN printed pictures a few days later which have haunted me evermore of 2 girls so badly squashed against
the fences that the paint was squashed onto their skin!...to think that the papers mad money out of that !!!!!....SUN=SCUM!!
Ninety-five fans died that afternoon.
Fans like me.
In the ground early, in order to get a good place to stand.
Killed by the unrelenting weight of humanity crushing the life and breath out of them.
The ninety-sixth victim, Tony Bland, died about three years later when his life support machine was turned off.
I remember the SUN printed pictures a few days later which have haunted me evermore of 2 girls so badly squashed against
the fences that the paint was squashed onto their skin!...to think that the papers mad money out of that !!!!!....SUN=SCUM!!
I still remember the great Peter Jones reporting on that day.....
MOST POLICE ARE SCUM, THE SUN NEWSPAPER IS SCUM BEYOND BELIEF WE ALL KNOW THAT, POLITICIANS ARE ANOTHER LOT YOU CAN ADD, AGAIN NOT ALL BUT A LARGE MAJORITY.
LIVERPOOL FANS NOT PERFECT BUT THE LIES BY THE THREE TYPES OF PEOPLE LISTED ABOVE SHOULD HAVE BEEN EXPOSED WAY BEFORE 23 YEARS HAD PASSED, THESE PEOPLE THOUGH HAVE NO CONSCIENCE SO WILL NO DOUBT SLEEP WELL ONCE AGAIN TONIGHT, I JUST WONDER IF THE NET IS IN FACT CLOSING IN ON SOME OF THEM AT LONG LAST.
LIVERPOOL FANS NOT PERFECT BUT THE LIES BY THE THREE TYPES OF PEOPLE LISTED ABOVE SHOULD HAVE BEEN EXPOSED WAY BEFORE 23 YEARS HAD PASSED, THESE PEOPLE THOUGH HAVE NO CONSCIENCE SO WILL NO DOUBT SLEEP WELL ONCE AGAIN TONIGHT, I JUST WONDER IF THE NET IS IN FACT CLOSING IN ON SOME OF THEM AT LONG LAST.
I wouldn`t hold your breathe.From what`s been said prosecuting might be a bit difficult.Hope not.
I remember the picture of those poor girls like it was yesterday. Heartbreaking stuff really.
what a t w a t
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183986/Hillsborough-disaster-Manchester-United-fan-hiding-death-threats-tattoo-taunting-Liverpool-over.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183986/Hillsborough-disaster-Manchester-United-fan-hiding-death-threats-tattoo-taunting-Liverpool-over.html
"It has absolutely nothing to do with being late, being ticketless or being drunk."
I assume the 2007 fiasco was completely different then in Athens?
"Others had paid £100 for what they knew were forgeries but they hoped might get them through. “What have you got?” one fan asked another as they jostled in the first queue. “A piece of paper that’s as good as a piece of s***e,” he replied before turning to his teenage son. “Don’t worry, lad, we’ll get in. It’s the European Cup final, we always get in.” And how were they intending to do so? “We’re going to steam the c***s,” he explained."
I assume the 2007 fiasco was completely different then in Athens?
"Others had paid £100 for what they knew were forgeries but they hoped might get them through. “What have you got?” one fan asked another as they jostled in the first queue. “A piece of paper that’s as good as a piece of s***e,” he replied before turning to his teenage son. “Don’t worry, lad, we’ll get in. It’s the European Cup final, we always get in.” And how were they intending to do so? “We’re going to steam the c***s,” he explained."
Sep 12, 2012 -- 11:34PM, Value Seeker wrote:
What I don't really understand is the mechanics of the trajedy has been known for a long time. The change of policing arrangments that leD to the disaster has been known for so many years and it is very obvious that the outcome would have been the same whatever teams fans had been in attendance so why has it taken this amount of time for these conclusions to be reached.It was self evident that a cover up or bending of the truth had taken place in an attempt to save the necks of those responsible and it seriously dismays me that succesive governments chose to ignore the truths starng them in the face and refused to countenance an enquiry of this form.The actuality is worse than I ever suspected however and I'm a forgiving man but those responsible must be brought to justice.
The mechanics were well understood and it shouldn't be forgotten that that Taylor Report blamed Police failures not the fans.
The shocking bit yesterday was the extent of the cover up, efforts to deflect blame and the fact so many lives could potentially have been saved in the aftermath. It's quite unbelievable this cover up could have held for so long. None of the documents or evidence were new so why have successive governments not acted sooner? Surely more of those responsible could then have faced justice. I was moved yesterday by the reports and press coverage, particularly by the dignity of families like Trevor Hicks.
The thing I most hope for though is an end to some of the vile chanting by fans of numerous clubs about deaths in football grounds. It's got to stop.
Java - wtf has that got to do with this thread little man?
The FAs statement this morning falls short of an apology. Why can't they say sorry for hiring an unsafe stadium, with a dubious safety record and no safety certificate for the 'greatest cup competition in the World'?
I'm curious. It's clear that the police butchered the situation at Hillsborough.
But were there no ticketless fans at the ground on that day? It seems clear the attitude after the disaster in 2007 was to turn up and get yourself in even if it put your fellow supporter in danger. I am simply wondering if this was the same on the day of the Hillsborough disaster?
But were there no ticketless fans at the ground on that day? It seems clear the attitude after the disaster in 2007 was to turn up and get yourself in even if it put your fellow supporter in danger. I am simply wondering if this was the same on the day of the Hillsborough disaster?
If this is not a question that is allowed to be asked let me know and I'll leave the thread to the police bashers.
Java. Both the Justice Taylor Report and the Hillsborough Report yesterday make it crystal clear that ticketless fans was not an issue.by lo
Using the turnstile counters and doing an entrance head count using video it has been shown that the number of people in the end at the time of the tragedy was less than the capacity of the Leppings Lane End.
The two side pens had large empty spaces and people died largely because the crowd was not evenly spread in the containing pens.
Why can you not accept that?
Using the turnstile counters and doing an entrance head count using video it has been shown that the number of people in the end at the time of the tragedy was less than the capacity of the Leppings Lane End.
The two side pens had large empty spaces and people died largely because the crowd was not evenly spread in the containing pens.
Why can you not accept that?
I remember watching that disaster unfold on TV as a 19yr old. At the time you didnt know how much was fans or or coppers fault but I do remember one thing that definately was the fault of the police that always stuck in my mind.
When it became clear that people were being crushed you wondered why the police did not open up the fencing (it wasnt fixed and could be done so). You could see guys behind pointing at police angrily saying'open the gate fencing'. The c***ing coppers just smiled and laughed at them.
It really is class war. The police hate football fans and the establishment hate Liverpool as a whole because its Socialist and Militant.
It was a chance for the Police and the government to tarnish the whole of Liverpool and for 23 years they achieved that.
Think about this though. The Hillsborough tragedy was massive with loads of people looking at it and yet they still covered it up for 23 years.
How easy and often then is that the police doctor evidence to put people in the frame for smaller crimes.
Must happen DAILY.
This is a POLICE STATE. Make no mistake
When it became clear that people were being crushed you wondered why the police did not open up the fencing (it wasnt fixed and could be done so). You could see guys behind pointing at police angrily saying'open the gate fencing'. The c***ing coppers just smiled and laughed at them.
It really is class war. The police hate football fans and the establishment hate Liverpool as a whole because its Socialist and Militant.
It was a chance for the Police and the government to tarnish the whole of Liverpool and for 23 years they achieved that.
Think about this though. The Hillsborough tragedy was massive with loads of people looking at it and yet they still covered it up for 23 years.
How easy and often then is that the police doctor evidence to put people in the frame for smaller crimes.
Must happen DAILY.
This is a POLICE STATE. Make no mistake
It wasnt a live TV game, and whilst it was covered on Grandstand they didn't have any live pictures. No-one watching the drama on TV 'saw' the events unfolding.
"Why can you not accept that? "
I can accept it. Thanks for clarifying. So how did this seemingly idiotic mistake happen if there were the correct amount of fans for the stadium? Presumably that end of Sheff Wed's ground had been full to capacity hundreds of times before? Why did it not happen every time there was a full crowd?
I can accept it. Thanks for clarifying. So how did this seemingly idiotic mistake happen if there were the correct amount of fans for the stadium? Presumably that end of Sheff Wed's ground had been full to capacity hundreds of times before? Why did it not happen every time there was a full crowd?
"It really is class war. The police hate football fans and the establishment hate Liverpool as a whole because its Socialist and Militant"
Oh dear. Are you seriously suggesting that the government killed those fans intentionally, because they didn't like the fact they were Labour voters? Have you any idea how ludicrous your post is?
Oh dear. Are you seriously suggesting that the government killed those fans intentionally, because they didn't like the fact they were Labour voters? Have you any idea how ludicrous your post is?
Sep 13, 2012 -- 10:14AM, Java wrote:
"Why can you not accept that? "I can accept it. Thanks for clarifying. So how did this seemingly idiotic mistake happen if there were the correct amount of fans for the stadium? Presumably that end of Sheff Wed's ground had been full to capacity hundreds of times before? Why did it not happen every time there was a full crowd?
Remember it was not a normal game but an FA Cup semi with near 50:50 ticket allocation and fans unfamiliar with the stadium - its access, turnstiles and terraces. It's no coincidence that the other instances of crushing at Hillsborough was for FA Cup semi finals.
No. Im suggesting that they knew that the police lied and that what was printed in the papers was a lie taken from the S.Yorkshire police but they let it go ahead so the Liverpool fans took the blame for the disaster
Read the report.
There were not enough turnstiles to process a capacity crowd, and crushing to some extent had happened outside the ground before in exactly the same way. 1981 Spurs v Wolves had similar problems inside and outside the ground. After this, semi finals were not staged at Hillsborough anymore, but were reintroduced in 1987 when Cov won there and there were more problems. 1988 Forest v Liverpool it happened to a lesser degree.
1989 was worse for a number of reasons, read the report, but when the gate was opened to alleviate external crushing, fans went into already full central pens because unlike previous times when the central pens were at capacity, the tunnel leading to these pens was not closed off and fans were not directed to emptier side pens.
There were not enough turnstiles to process a capacity crowd, and crushing to some extent had happened outside the ground before in exactly the same way. 1981 Spurs v Wolves had similar problems inside and outside the ground. After this, semi finals were not staged at Hillsborough anymore, but were reintroduced in 1987 when Cov won there and there were more problems. 1988 Forest v Liverpool it happened to a lesser degree.
1989 was worse for a number of reasons, read the report, but when the gate was opened to alleviate external crushing, fans went into already full central pens because unlike previous times when the central pens were at capacity, the tunnel leading to these pens was not closed off and fans were not directed to emptier side pens.
The staff have worked there before though. Surely it is a rather simple procedure to put fans in one pen, and then open another pen when that one is full? And why would fans keep going into one pen when it was clearly full rather than wait for the next pen to open. It still makes no sense to me.
Java - read just a few pages from page 32 (or all if you wish) and it will hopefully make sense to you:
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf
Read the report ffs.
There was a procedure which was not adopted on this occasion.
There was a procedure which was not adopted on this occasion.
Sir Norman Bettison: 'I have nothing to hide' on Hillsborough operation
http://www.itv.com Thu 13 Sep 2012
Sir Norman Bettison, the most senior serving police officer involved with South Yorkshire Police's Hillsborough operation, said he had "nothing to hide".
Sir Norman, the current Chief Constable of West Yorkshire, faced calls to quit following an independent report into the tragedy in which 96 people were killed.
In a statement released on West Yorkshire Police's website, he said:
“
I really welcome the disclosure of all the facts that can be known because I have absolutely nothing to hide.
– Sir Norman Bettison
The report by the Hillsborough Independent Panel laid bare a shocking cover-up from police who attempted to shift the blame on to the 96 victims.
The report found that 164 police statements were altered, 116 of them to remove or alter "unfavourable" comments about the policing of the match and the unfolding disaster.
Sir Norman, who was involved in an internal inquiry held in the aftermath of the disaster, was an off duty police officer when he attended the game in 1989. He said:
“
The more we learn about events, the more we may understand. I sat through every single day of the Taylor Inquiry, in the summer of 1989. I learned so much. Taylor was right in saying that the disaster was caused, mainly, through a lack of police control.
Fans behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be. But it didn't cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick off approached.
I held those views then, I hold them now. I have never, since hearing the Taylor evidence unfold, offered any other interpretation in public or private.
Here is Sir Norman's statement in full:
“
The more we learn about events, the more we may understand. I sat through every single day of the Taylor Inquiry, in the summer of 1989. I learned so much. Taylor was right in saying that the disaster was caused, mainly, through a lack of police control.
Fans behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be. But it didn't cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick off approached.
I held those views then, I hold them now. I have never, since hearing the Taylor evidence unfold, offered any other interpretation in public or private.
It is against that backcloth that any documents with my name attached, out of the 400,000 revealed, must be seen. For example, the reference to preparation for the contributions hearing (the Court case to recover contributions to damages from Sheffield Wednesday Football Club and the stadium engineers who were also found, by Taylor, to be at fault) was to position South Yorkshire Police's liability against the Football Club, the stadium engineers and the Council which issued a defective safety certificate it was NOT to apportion any blame whatsoever to the fans.
In the absence of all the facts, I was called upon to resign 14 years ago, when I became the Chief Constable of Merseyside. I really welcome the disclosure of all the facts that can be known about the Hillsborough tragedy because I have absolutely nothing to hide.
I read the 395 page report from cover to cover last night and that remains my position. The panel, in my view, has produced a piece of work that will stand the test of time and scrutiny. Whilst not wishing to become a conducting rod for all the genuine and justified hurt and anguish, I would invite anyone to do the same as me and read the document and the papers on line. They document, in detail, my personal actions in respect of the Hillsborough tragedy, which were, in summary, as follows:
I purchased a ticket and was an off-duty spectator at the match. As soon as I realised the unfolding tragedy, I put myself on duty, giving immediate assistance behind the south stand. I later set up a receiving centre, at a local police station, for supporters who had become separated from friends and family (see my contemporaneous statement on line).
In 1989, I was a Chief Inspector in a non-operational role at Headquarters. Four days after the disaster (and after all the vile newspaper coverage had been written) I was one of several officers pulled together by the then Deputy Chief Constable, Peter Hays, to support him in piecing together what had taken place at the event.
By that time, the Chief Constable, Peter Wright, had handed over the formal investigation of the tragedy to an independent Police Force, West Midlands Police. It was West Midlands Police that presented evidence before the Taylor Inquiry. The South Yorkshire Deputy Chief Constable's team, under the leadership of Chief Superintendent Wain, was a parallel activity to inform Chief Officers of facts rather than rely on the speculation rampant at that time.
Another team was later created (see Hillsborough Independent Panel Report pages 54 and 55; page 186 (particularly para 2.6.35 which distinguishes the two separate teams; and page 319), to work with the solicitors who were representing South Yorkshire Police at the Taylor Inquiry, to vet statements from South Yorkshire Police Officers that were intended to be presented to the Inquiry (see Hillsborough Independent Panel Report Part 2, Chapter 11). I was not a member of that team. I never altered a statement nor asked for one to be altered. Two South Yorkshire Police teams have been conflated in the minds of some commentators.
I subsequently sat through each day of the Taylor Inquiry, briefing the South Yorkshire Chief Constable and Deputy Chief Constable on a regular basis. These briefings acknowledged and accepted the responsibility of the Force in the disaster. The evidence was overwhelming.
Shortly after the conclusion of the Taylor Inquiry, I was posted to other duties. I had nothing further to do with the subsequent Coroners Inquests and proceedings, other than occasional advice because of my knowledge of the evidence presented to the Taylor Inquiry.
– Sir Norman Bettison
http://www.itv.com Thu 13 Sep 2012
Sir Norman Bettison, the most senior serving police officer involved with South Yorkshire Police's Hillsborough operation, said he had "nothing to hide".
Sir Norman, the current Chief Constable of West Yorkshire, faced calls to quit following an independent report into the tragedy in which 96 people were killed.
In a statement released on West Yorkshire Police's website, he said:
“
I really welcome the disclosure of all the facts that can be known because I have absolutely nothing to hide.
– Sir Norman Bettison
The report by the Hillsborough Independent Panel laid bare a shocking cover-up from police who attempted to shift the blame on to the 96 victims.
The report found that 164 police statements were altered, 116 of them to remove or alter "unfavourable" comments about the policing of the match and the unfolding disaster.
Sir Norman, who was involved in an internal inquiry held in the aftermath of the disaster, was an off duty police officer when he attended the game in 1989. He said:
“
The more we learn about events, the more we may understand. I sat through every single day of the Taylor Inquiry, in the summer of 1989. I learned so much. Taylor was right in saying that the disaster was caused, mainly, through a lack of police control.
Fans behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be. But it didn't cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick off approached.
I held those views then, I hold them now. I have never, since hearing the Taylor evidence unfold, offered any other interpretation in public or private.
Here is Sir Norman's statement in full:
“
The more we learn about events, the more we may understand. I sat through every single day of the Taylor Inquiry, in the summer of 1989. I learned so much. Taylor was right in saying that the disaster was caused, mainly, through a lack of police control.
Fans behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be. But it didn't cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick off approached.
I held those views then, I hold them now. I have never, since hearing the Taylor evidence unfold, offered any other interpretation in public or private.
It is against that backcloth that any documents with my name attached, out of the 400,000 revealed, must be seen. For example, the reference to preparation for the contributions hearing (the Court case to recover contributions to damages from Sheffield Wednesday Football Club and the stadium engineers who were also found, by Taylor, to be at fault) was to position South Yorkshire Police's liability against the Football Club, the stadium engineers and the Council which issued a defective safety certificate it was NOT to apportion any blame whatsoever to the fans.
In the absence of all the facts, I was called upon to resign 14 years ago, when I became the Chief Constable of Merseyside. I really welcome the disclosure of all the facts that can be known about the Hillsborough tragedy because I have absolutely nothing to hide.
I read the 395 page report from cover to cover last night and that remains my position. The panel, in my view, has produced a piece of work that will stand the test of time and scrutiny. Whilst not wishing to become a conducting rod for all the genuine and justified hurt and anguish, I would invite anyone to do the same as me and read the document and the papers on line. They document, in detail, my personal actions in respect of the Hillsborough tragedy, which were, in summary, as follows:
I purchased a ticket and was an off-duty spectator at the match. As soon as I realised the unfolding tragedy, I put myself on duty, giving immediate assistance behind the south stand. I later set up a receiving centre, at a local police station, for supporters who had become separated from friends and family (see my contemporaneous statement on line).
In 1989, I was a Chief Inspector in a non-operational role at Headquarters. Four days after the disaster (and after all the vile newspaper coverage had been written) I was one of several officers pulled together by the then Deputy Chief Constable, Peter Hays, to support him in piecing together what had taken place at the event.
By that time, the Chief Constable, Peter Wright, had handed over the formal investigation of the tragedy to an independent Police Force, West Midlands Police. It was West Midlands Police that presented evidence before the Taylor Inquiry. The South Yorkshire Deputy Chief Constable's team, under the leadership of Chief Superintendent Wain, was a parallel activity to inform Chief Officers of facts rather than rely on the speculation rampant at that time.
Another team was later created (see Hillsborough Independent Panel Report pages 54 and 55; page 186 (particularly para 2.6.35 which distinguishes the two separate teams; and page 319), to work with the solicitors who were representing South Yorkshire Police at the Taylor Inquiry, to vet statements from South Yorkshire Police Officers that were intended to be presented to the Inquiry (see Hillsborough Independent Panel Report Part 2, Chapter 11). I was not a member of that team. I never altered a statement nor asked for one to be altered. Two South Yorkshire Police teams have been conflated in the minds of some commentators.
I subsequently sat through each day of the Taylor Inquiry, briefing the South Yorkshire Chief Constable and Deputy Chief Constable on a regular basis. These briefings acknowledged and accepted the responsibility of the Force in the disaster. The evidence was overwhelming.
Shortly after the conclusion of the Taylor Inquiry, I was posted to other duties. I had nothing further to do with the subsequent Coroners Inquests and proceedings, other than occasional advice because of my knowledge of the evidence presented to the Taylor Inquiry.
– Sir Norman Bettison
This bloke was made an Honorary Fellow of Liverpool John Moores University in 2004....
And knighted in 2006. I wonder what he got that for..
And knighted in 2006. I wonder what he got that for..
For people (Java in particular) asking about ticketless fans getting into grounds. Like many posters here of all clubs, I have witnessed many fans at every big game (from 1972 onwards)attempting and in some cases succeeding to enter grounds without a ticket.
How many do you think this involves? I don't have a definitive answer, but I would guess anything from 30 to 400. I have stood on The Kop at Anfield on many occasions when it seemed well over capacity. The difference with Hillsborough is that it was penned areas, and not open terracing. When the centre pens were already full, nobody in control stopped further fans from entering this area. The problem was further enhanced by the decision to open the exit gate outside, which led to many fans spilling inside, and the nearest entrance to that gate was the tunnel that led to the centre pens. Had police have closed this off prior to opening the exit gate, we would not have had the same outcome. Also for those who doubt that were I stood was relatively empty, look at the following links. I was stood close to the police control box, and there was plenty of space for me to move. http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/images/crowd.jpg http://e2.365dm.com/12/09/660x350/Hillsborough-disaster-Leppings-Lane-End_2827177.jpg
For those still blaming drunken fans, that has to be the biggest load of nonsense. As recently as us playing at home to Hearts in the Europa League, it is clear that fans in their droves drink extensively prior to a match. http://i48.tinypic.com/21dfz12.jpg
How many do you think this involves? I don't have a definitive answer, but I would guess anything from 30 to 400. I have stood on The Kop at Anfield on many occasions when it seemed well over capacity. The difference with Hillsborough is that it was penned areas, and not open terracing. When the centre pens were already full, nobody in control stopped further fans from entering this area. The problem was further enhanced by the decision to open the exit gate outside, which led to many fans spilling inside, and the nearest entrance to that gate was the tunnel that led to the centre pens. Had police have closed this off prior to opening the exit gate, we would not have had the same outcome. Also for those who doubt that were I stood was relatively empty, look at the following links. I was stood close to the police control box, and there was plenty of space for me to move. http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/images/crowd.jpg http://e2.365dm.com/12/09/660x350/Hillsborough-disaster-Leppings-Lane-End_2827177.jpg
For those still blaming drunken fans, that has to be the biggest load of nonsense. As recently as us playing at home to Hearts in the Europa League, it is clear that fans in their droves drink extensively prior to a match. http://i48.tinypic.com/21dfz12.jpg
there was a gentleman on 5 live this morning whose surname was Rodgers, didn't catch his first name but he was something to do with the leaders who started the action group. Nicky campbell asked him if he could be locked in a room with one person to ask questions to who would he pick, he replied margaret Thatcher. He was convinced that she knew more than was let out, now Tony said I was wrong yesterday but I still think there is something to it. South Yorks police thought they were untouchable in my opinion, and I now wonder how many miners were stitched up for things they never really did.
there is a report with factual information about what happened
people like nicky campbell will always take that and sensationalise it for his own gain
speculating about what thatcher did or didnt know is not helpful and people saying they are convinced about something they have no idea about are talking out of their backsides
people like nicky campbell will always take that and sensationalise it for his own gain
speculating about what thatcher did or didnt know is not helpful and people saying they are convinced about something they have no idea about are talking out of their backsides
Why was there big fences stopping the fans getting on the pitch?
If there were no fences everybody would have just overspilled onto the pitch.
If there were no fences everybody would have just overspilled onto the pitch.
i think everyone asking questions about why things happened or why the ground was the way it was should read the report - its very enlightening
Hillsborough: Boris Johnson apologises for slurs in 2004 Spectator article
Sep 13 2012
Boris Johnson today said he was "very, very sorry" for comments made in a 2004 Spectator article about Liverpool FC fans involved in the Hillsborough disaster.
Speaking in central London, the capital’s mayor said: "I’m very, very glad that this report does lay to rest the false allegation that was made at the time about the behaviour of those fans.
"I was very, very sorry in 2004 that the Spectator did carry an editorial that partially repeated those allegations, I apologised then and I apologise now.
"I do hope the families of the 96 victims will take some comfort from this report and that they can reach some sort of closure."
Mr Johnson went on: "I'm glad that this independent report has finally nailed the myth that drunken fans were in any way responsible for the deaths of 96 people.
"That was a lie that unfortunately and very, very regrettably got picked up in a leader in the Spectator in 2004, which I was then editing.
"I went to Liverpool to apologise unreservedly for that mistake and I repeat that apology today."
Mr Johnson caused uproar eight years ago after stating the reaction to Ken Bigley’s murder in Iraq had given rise to “mawkish sentimentality” in Liverpool.
The editorial in the Spectator magazine, edited by Mr Johnson, read: "[Liverpudlians] see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it."
Making explicit reference to the Hillsborough tragedy, it said the city of Liverpool failed to acknowledge "the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground."
The piece added: "The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident."
Later in 2004, Mr Johnson paid a visit to Liverpool in an attempt to build bridges and say sorry for the remarks.
Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2012/09/13/hillsbor...
Sep 13 2012
Boris Johnson today said he was "very, very sorry" for comments made in a 2004 Spectator article about Liverpool FC fans involved in the Hillsborough disaster.
Speaking in central London, the capital’s mayor said: "I’m very, very glad that this report does lay to rest the false allegation that was made at the time about the behaviour of those fans.
"I was very, very sorry in 2004 that the Spectator did carry an editorial that partially repeated those allegations, I apologised then and I apologise now.
"I do hope the families of the 96 victims will take some comfort from this report and that they can reach some sort of closure."
Mr Johnson went on: "I'm glad that this independent report has finally nailed the myth that drunken fans were in any way responsible for the deaths of 96 people.
"That was a lie that unfortunately and very, very regrettably got picked up in a leader in the Spectator in 2004, which I was then editing.
"I went to Liverpool to apologise unreservedly for that mistake and I repeat that apology today."
Mr Johnson caused uproar eight years ago after stating the reaction to Ken Bigley’s murder in Iraq had given rise to “mawkish sentimentality” in Liverpool.
The editorial in the Spectator magazine, edited by Mr Johnson, read: "[Liverpudlians] see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it."
Making explicit reference to the Hillsborough tragedy, it said the city of Liverpool failed to acknowledge "the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground."
The piece added: "The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident."
Later in 2004, Mr Johnson paid a visit to Liverpool in an attempt to build bridges and say sorry for the remarks.
Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2012/09/13/hillsbor...
"A mind is like a parachute,it doesn't work if it isn't open" Frank Zappa
he wasn't sensationalising anything, he asked the chap a straight forward question.
burton we could argue whether he was in this case or not
but i didn't specify this convo - i said in general. he asks questions to probe headline making responses
fact or no fact
i have very little time for people like him in the media
but i didn't specify this convo - i said in general. he asks questions to probe headline making responses
fact or no fact
i have very little time for people like him in the media
Another ''Profound'' apology this time from the FA
David Bernstein apologises for Hillsborough disaster
By Barney Corkhill, Reporter http://www.sportsmole.co.uk
FA chairman David Bernstein has apologised on behalf of the association for their part in the tragic events that occurred on April 15, 1989.
During an FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough, 96 Liverpool fans lost their lives in a crush that a panel yesterday found was largely avoidable.
Emergency services could have saved 41 of the 96 victims and a large amount of police statements were altered to shift the blame onto fans, it was revealed.
Hillsborough itself was chosen for the semi-final despite not having a safety certificate at the time, and Bernstein has now released an unreserved apology for that fact.
"We are deeply sorry this tragedy occurred at a venue the FA selected. This fixture was played in the FA's own competition, and on behalf of the FA I offer a full & unreserved apology," said Bernstein
"It is a matter of extreme regret and sadness that it has taken so long for these findings to be published and the truth to be told."
The FA had previously expressed their "profound sympathy" for the Hillsborough families
David Bernstein apologises for Hillsborough disaster
By Barney Corkhill, Reporter http://www.sportsmole.co.uk
FA chairman David Bernstein has apologised on behalf of the association for their part in the tragic events that occurred on April 15, 1989.
During an FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough, 96 Liverpool fans lost their lives in a crush that a panel yesterday found was largely avoidable.
Emergency services could have saved 41 of the 96 victims and a large amount of police statements were altered to shift the blame onto fans, it was revealed.
Hillsborough itself was chosen for the semi-final despite not having a safety certificate at the time, and Bernstein has now released an unreserved apology for that fact.
"We are deeply sorry this tragedy occurred at a venue the FA selected. This fixture was played in the FA's own competition, and on behalf of the FA I offer a full & unreserved apology," said Bernstein
"It is a matter of extreme regret and sadness that it has taken so long for these findings to be published and the truth to be told."
The FA had previously expressed their "profound sympathy" for the Hillsborough families
shirley the FA and Sheffield Wednesday must be lookin at a coporate manslaughter charge
Does anyone know if the FA queried SWFC before or after whether they had their safety certificate? If they knew beforehand then surely the game should`ve been played at another venue.
for sure they knew Hillsborough had no certificate, if not not you can add a gross negligence charge as well, this cover up goes far deeper than the emergency services
Java, if you had any sense of awareness then your questions would have been answered a long time ago.
Incidentally several 'near misses' had already happened at the Leppings Lane end @ Hillsborough and were narrowly diverted including a pitch invasion (Wolves v Spurs semi I think). And this even when all the pens in the Leppings Lane were being fully used, not just the central pen where the tragedy took place. Hillsborough was a ground that never even had a safety certificate!
I have been very impressed with the way proper football fans (regardless of club affiliation) are in universal agreement and indignation as to the events @ Hillsborough. But there is always one who cannot change 23 years of hatred no matter what the evidence clearly shows.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/how-twitter-saw-truth-day
https://twitter.com/OurKelly/status/245949512424779777/photo/1/large
Incidentally several 'near misses' had already happened at the Leppings Lane end @ Hillsborough and were narrowly diverted including a pitch invasion (Wolves v Spurs semi I think). And this even when all the pens in the Leppings Lane were being fully used, not just the central pen where the tragedy took place. Hillsborough was a ground that never even had a safety certificate!
I have been very impressed with the way proper football fans (regardless of club affiliation) are in universal agreement and indignation as to the events @ Hillsborough. But there is always one who cannot change 23 years of hatred no matter what the evidence clearly shows.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/how-twitter-saw-truth-day
https://twitter.com/OurKelly/status/245949512424779777/photo/1/large
Also Peter Robinson wrote to the FA prior to the semi Final asking that ends be switched for safety reasons. Of course the FA ignored this.
If it was law ,why were'nt Shef Wed prosecuted then?
hopefully we'll find out over the coming months, but to all intense and purpose it was an illegal game of professional football
Sep 13, 2012 -- 1:02PM, shudacuda wrote:
Why was there big fences stopping the fans getting on the pitch?If there were no fences everybody would have just overspilled onto the pitch.
There was at every ground at the time. They quickly came down after Hillsbrough.
For the want of a more substantial reasoning, it was because of the culture at that time.
Darlo - Highbury did not have fences - as a result the FA would not allow semi-finals to be played there.
Sep 13, 2012 -- 1:31PM, grumpygit wrote:
Does anyone know if the FA queried SWFC before or after whether they had their safety certificate? If they knew beforehand then surely the game should`ve been played at another venue.
The FA are as culpable in all of this as any other body or person.
Sep 13, 2012 -- 2:12PM, Mexico wrote:
Darlo - Highbury did not have fences - as a result the FA would not allow semi-finals to be played there.
Indeed you're right. Okay, so from my memory a lot of English grounds did then. Were then any/many others which didn't have this fencing?
So was it because of the fans behaviour,that there were high fences round the pitch?
The report is a detailed report based on all the evidence available, but just because there is no evidence suggesting drunken behavoiur and fans gaining access without tickets doesn't mean it didn't happen. 100%truth or facts will never be available, I'm not suggesting anything and the report is probally very close to the truth, just stating what I believe to a fact.
dsmith
What reason have for believing drunken behaviour/lack of tickets was part of the problem? Just asking a question.
What reason have for believing drunken behaviour/lack of tickets was part of the problem? Just asking a question.
It would be naive in the extreme to think that no fans were drunk. However I cannot for the life of me, given all the evidence, and what I saw with my own eyes, how this fact is in anyway relevant, other than the Poice trying to lay blame on drunken fans, and indeed when the coroner took blood samples, which proved dead fans were not inebriated, the police then looked for other excuses, via criminal records.
The Taylor report does include stuff on alcohol sales and ticketing in football grounds. Not sure if it was just an addendum or actually part of the response to what happened at Hillsbrough.
i think the reality of the report is that alcohol clearly didn't affect peoples decision making, nor did it make them aggressive or unruly and nor did it affect their ability to survive the events
on that basis alcohol is irrelevant
on that basis alcohol is irrelevant
dsmith
That is the most pointless post i have ever seen.
That is the most pointless post i have ever seen.
I'm saddened but not surprised that despite all the evidence people keep throwing in the comments about drunkenness and ticketless fans.
Such people used flawed logic. They argue or imply that the tragedy was caused by such behaviour and yet we all know that it was commonplace across football at that time. So why didn't we see Hillsborough type incidents every Saturday at grounds up and down the country?
The answer is not complicated. A combination of a potentially dangerous stand (access, turnstiles, signage, pens), poor management of the crowd, catastrophic policing decisions on the day and a totally inadequate emergency response led to the death of 96 fans.
Such people used flawed logic. They argue or imply that the tragedy was caused by such behaviour and yet we all know that it was commonplace across football at that time. So why didn't we see Hillsborough type incidents every Saturday at grounds up and down the country?
The answer is not complicated. A combination of a potentially dangerous stand (access, turnstiles, signage, pens), poor management of the crowd, catastrophic policing decisions on the day and a totally inadequate emergency response led to the death of 96 fans.
The victims wouldn't have been consuming alcohol, they were mainly all at the front arriving early and family's, but I was there in the forest end and had been drinking, the pubs were rammed like you would expect. But yes it seems this didn't play a part. How many stole in without tickets we will never know, how much a part of the blame this if any caused again we will never know.
ticketless fans are nothing to do with it
the slow turnstiles reached a point where they had crowding outside and they then dealt with it poorly
a few hundred ticketless fans wouldn't have changed anything about that
the slow turnstiles reached a point where they had crowding outside and they then dealt with it poorly
a few hundred ticketless fans wouldn't have changed anything about that
Ticketless and drunken fans, hooligans and whether the victims were criminals had nothing to do with whether Hillsborough was chosen, whether stewards were not manned to direct fans to the emptier pens, whether the stadium had a health and safety certificate, whether the ambulances were allowed inside the ground, whether the police chose to help, whether the fences crushed people.
its a bit like suggesting that if theres a plane crash because of engine failure, a guy that smuggled a knife onto the plane is at fault
you just have to look at the pictures. the pen to the left of the central pens where the crush took place is virtually empty at kick off time
Sorry if I've caused offence value seeker. I believe 99% but will never be 100% but I'll say no more it doesn't come across appropriately
value seeker
one question - i mean nothing by this just generally interested - were there any similar games like semi finals played there before?
just wondered if there was a reason why this hadn't happened before or maybe it had to a lesser extent?
one question - i mean nothing by this just generally interested - were there any similar games like semi finals played there before?
just wondered if there was a reason why this hadn't happened before or maybe it had to a lesser extent?
raj, it did. 38 spurs fans suffered crush injuries in the leppings lane end at 1981 semi final against wolves. they didn't hold another semi there until 1987 after that
thanks mafeking
if it could be any worse - that makes it so
truly shocking
if it could be any worse - that makes it so
truly shocking
yeh cheers
but the problem started outside the turnstiles didn't it - which was before the central entrance to the pens - is that right?
i just wondered if anything different happened that day to cause the build up at the turnstiles
as i said - not suggesting anything - just to clarify
but the problem started outside the turnstiles didn't it - which was before the central entrance to the pens - is that right?
i just wondered if anything different happened that day to cause the build up at the turnstiles
as i said - not suggesting anything - just to clarify
Yes it did Raj. The previous year there were police checking tickets quite a distance away from the turnstiles. Fans were then directed through passages made up of crowd control barriers, to the relevant turnstiles appertaining to their ticket, and thus into orderly queues. This did not happen in 1989, and people were allowed to stroll up to the turnstiles, which are sort of, off road, in a kind of semi enlosed space. This caused too many fans to be there, with no proper police control, and thus a bottleneck effect.
Tim Smith@TheTippingTim
Would never buy The Sun but its Sky TV and, ironically, Premiership footy that's Murdochs big cash cow. How about boycotting that too?
Would never buy The Sun but its Sky TV and, ironically, Premiership footy that's Murdochs big cash cow. How about boycotting that too?
Sep 13, 2012 -- 5:09PM, mafeking wrote:
raj, it did. 38 spurs fans suffered crush injuries in the leppings lane end at 1981 semi final against wolves. they didn't hold another semi there until 1987 after that
There was also a crush at the 1988 semi-final - again Liverpool fans. But that was ignored.
Named, blamed and shamed: The police chiefs who caused tragedy, smeared dead fans and fabricated evidence as families call for them to be prosecuted
http://bit.ly/QZ3xHg
http://bit.ly/QZ3xHg
Hillsborough: South Yorkshire Police consider IPCC referral
http://www.bbc.co.uk
South Yorkshire Police is reopening investigations into the force's conduct over the 1989 Hillsborough disaster.
The force is considering referring itself to the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC).
It follows a report that found officers changed statements and tried to blame Liverpool fans for the crush in 1989 which killed 96 people.
An investigation has also begun into West Yorkshire's chief constable, who was on duty at Hillsborough.
The crush was the result of overcrowding at the start of the FA Cup semi-final on 15 April 1989.
On Wednesday, the Hillsborough Independent Panel, which spent two years trawling through more than 400,000 documents relating to the disaster, reported on its findings.
Resignation calls
Police bosses, including South Yorkshire's current chief constable, said charges should be brought if laws were broken.
In a statement the force said: "South Yorkshire Police is currently reviewing a wide variety of matters raised in the report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel with a view to making a referral to the Independent Police Complaints Commission."
Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg: "The wheels of justice must now turn"
Should such a referral be made, it is common practice that the IPCC be informed of which specific officers should be investigated.
South Yorkshire Police confirmed 195 officers who were on duty at Hillsborough still work for the force.
West Yorkshire's police authority is to investigate the role played by current chief constable, Sir Norman Bettison, who was a serving officer in the South Yorkshire force at the time of the disaster.
The Authority Chairman, Councillor Mark Burns-Williamson, said the matter has been referred to the Special Committee which oversees all conduct and complaints matters involving chief officer ranks.
Campaigners had called for Sir Norman, who has insisted the behaviour of some fans in the stadium made the job of the police "harder than it needed to be", to stand down.
Mr Burns-Williams said: "The Committee will review the report in detail along with any other relevant information, in consultation with South Yorkshire Police and will take whatever action is appropriate."
'Overwhelming misery'
The Mayor of Liverpool Joe Anderson has called for former Conservative MP Sir Irvine Patnick to be stripped of his knighthood after he was criticised in the report.
Sir Irvine, former Sheffield Hallam MP, was identified as being one of the sources for The Sun's story headlined "The Truth", which contained false allegations against fans.
Mr Anderson said he has "brought the Honours system into disrepute" and helped to bring "overwhelming misery" to the people of Liverpool.
Sir Irvine said he was "deeply and sincerely sorry" for the part he played, adding: "It is now clear that the information i received from some police officers at the time was wholly inaccurate, misleading and plain wrong.
"However I totally accept responsibility for passing on such information without asking further questions.
"So many years after this tragic event I am deeply and sincerely sorry for the part I played in adding to the pain and suffering of the victims' families."
The report published on Wednesday by the Hillsborough Independent Panel found police amended 164 of the statements made about the tragedy.
Of those, 116 were substantially changed to "remove or alter comments unfavourable" to the force.
The report also found that 41 of the 96 who died had the "potential to survive" and calls have been made for fresh inquests.
'Swift investigation'
The IPCC said the Hillsborough Independent Panel's report raised "extremely serious and troubling issues for the police".
A spokesman said the commission is reviewing the new documentation and awaiting a referral from South Yorkshire Police.
They added: "We also await the decision by the Attorney-General in respect of the inquests, and will liaise with the relevant parties to identify what should be investigated, and by whom."
Richard Wells, who led South Yorkshire Police from 1990 to 1998, said charges were "absolutely essential", and the force's current chief constable David Crompton said if statements have been falsified against the law, prosecutions should be brought.
A Home Office spokesman added: "It's important that any allegations of criminal misconduct are investigated swiftly and thoroughly and anyone who is found to have broken the law is brought to justice."
Justice Secretary Chris Grayling said a quick decision is expected from the Attorney General on whether the inquests will be reopened, and prosecutions will be considered.
He added: "Lessons need to be learned, actions need to follow quickly."
Other reactions from senior figures and families to the report have included:
Joan Hope, whose son John McBrien died in the tragedy, who said she was "disappointed because I was hoping for a statement saying the police were guilty"
Ex-Home Secretary Jack Straw, who said Margaret Thatcher's government created a "culture of impunity" in the police that led to the Hillsborough cover-up
Sir Norman Bettison, the current chief constable of West Yorkshire who was a senior officer in South Yorkshire Police's Hillsborough operation, who said he had "absolutely nothing to hide"
Shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper, who called for an Independent Police Complaints Commission criminal investigation into the conduct of officers
Nick Clegg, who also called for a criminal inquiry, adding: "I am reeling with horror at the revelations - despicable things happened. The wheels of justice must now turn but it seems to me there was criminal activity and police must pursue this"
West Midlands Police Assistant Chief Constable Gareth Cann, who said the force was to "consider and review the content of the Independent Panel's report" which said that it knew South Yorkshire officers altered statements
Football Association chairman Sir David Bernstein, who said the tragedy "should never have happened. Nobody should lose their lives when setting out to attend a football match and it is a matter of extreme regret and sadness that it has taken so long for these findings to be published and the truth to be told"
The Sun's editor Dominic Mohan, who said the newspaper was "deeply ashamed and profoundly sorry" for the headline The Truth on the front-page story which ran four days after the disaster
The Mayor of London Boris Johnson, who apologised for an article he wrote in 2004 in which he said Liverpool fans were partly to blame for the Hillsborough disaster
http://www.bbc.co.uk
South Yorkshire Police is reopening investigations into the force's conduct over the 1989 Hillsborough disaster.
The force is considering referring itself to the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC).
It follows a report that found officers changed statements and tried to blame Liverpool fans for the crush in 1989 which killed 96 people.
An investigation has also begun into West Yorkshire's chief constable, who was on duty at Hillsborough.
The crush was the result of overcrowding at the start of the FA Cup semi-final on 15 April 1989.
On Wednesday, the Hillsborough Independent Panel, which spent two years trawling through more than 400,000 documents relating to the disaster, reported on its findings.
Resignation calls
Police bosses, including South Yorkshire's current chief constable, said charges should be brought if laws were broken.
In a statement the force said: "South Yorkshire Police is currently reviewing a wide variety of matters raised in the report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel with a view to making a referral to the Independent Police Complaints Commission."
Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg: "The wheels of justice must now turn"
Should such a referral be made, it is common practice that the IPCC be informed of which specific officers should be investigated.
South Yorkshire Police confirmed 195 officers who were on duty at Hillsborough still work for the force.
West Yorkshire's police authority is to investigate the role played by current chief constable, Sir Norman Bettison, who was a serving officer in the South Yorkshire force at the time of the disaster.
The Authority Chairman, Councillor Mark Burns-Williamson, said the matter has been referred to the Special Committee which oversees all conduct and complaints matters involving chief officer ranks.
Campaigners had called for Sir Norman, who has insisted the behaviour of some fans in the stadium made the job of the police "harder than it needed to be", to stand down.
Mr Burns-Williams said: "The Committee will review the report in detail along with any other relevant information, in consultation with South Yorkshire Police and will take whatever action is appropriate."
'Overwhelming misery'
The Mayor of Liverpool Joe Anderson has called for former Conservative MP Sir Irvine Patnick to be stripped of his knighthood after he was criticised in the report.
Sir Irvine, former Sheffield Hallam MP, was identified as being one of the sources for The Sun's story headlined "The Truth", which contained false allegations against fans.
Mr Anderson said he has "brought the Honours system into disrepute" and helped to bring "overwhelming misery" to the people of Liverpool.
Sir Irvine said he was "deeply and sincerely sorry" for the part he played, adding: "It is now clear that the information i received from some police officers at the time was wholly inaccurate, misleading and plain wrong.
"However I totally accept responsibility for passing on such information without asking further questions.
"So many years after this tragic event I am deeply and sincerely sorry for the part I played in adding to the pain and suffering of the victims' families."
The report published on Wednesday by the Hillsborough Independent Panel found police amended 164 of the statements made about the tragedy.
Of those, 116 were substantially changed to "remove or alter comments unfavourable" to the force.
The report also found that 41 of the 96 who died had the "potential to survive" and calls have been made for fresh inquests.
'Swift investigation'
The IPCC said the Hillsborough Independent Panel's report raised "extremely serious and troubling issues for the police".
A spokesman said the commission is reviewing the new documentation and awaiting a referral from South Yorkshire Police.
They added: "We also await the decision by the Attorney-General in respect of the inquests, and will liaise with the relevant parties to identify what should be investigated, and by whom."
Richard Wells, who led South Yorkshire Police from 1990 to 1998, said charges were "absolutely essential", and the force's current chief constable David Crompton said if statements have been falsified against the law, prosecutions should be brought.
A Home Office spokesman added: "It's important that any allegations of criminal misconduct are investigated swiftly and thoroughly and anyone who is found to have broken the law is brought to justice."
Justice Secretary Chris Grayling said a quick decision is expected from the Attorney General on whether the inquests will be reopened, and prosecutions will be considered.
He added: "Lessons need to be learned, actions need to follow quickly."
Other reactions from senior figures and families to the report have included:
Joan Hope, whose son John McBrien died in the tragedy, who said she was "disappointed because I was hoping for a statement saying the police were guilty"
Ex-Home Secretary Jack Straw, who said Margaret Thatcher's government created a "culture of impunity" in the police that led to the Hillsborough cover-up
Sir Norman Bettison, the current chief constable of West Yorkshire who was a senior officer in South Yorkshire Police's Hillsborough operation, who said he had "absolutely nothing to hide"
Shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper, who called for an Independent Police Complaints Commission criminal investigation into the conduct of officers
Nick Clegg, who also called for a criminal inquiry, adding: "I am reeling with horror at the revelations - despicable things happened. The wheels of justice must now turn but it seems to me there was criminal activity and police must pursue this"
West Midlands Police Assistant Chief Constable Gareth Cann, who said the force was to "consider and review the content of the Independent Panel's report" which said that it knew South Yorkshire officers altered statements
Football Association chairman Sir David Bernstein, who said the tragedy "should never have happened. Nobody should lose their lives when setting out to attend a football match and it is a matter of extreme regret and sadness that it has taken so long for these findings to be published and the truth to be told"
The Sun's editor Dominic Mohan, who said the newspaper was "deeply ashamed and profoundly sorry" for the headline The Truth on the front-page story which ran four days after the disaster
The Mayor of London Boris Johnson, who apologised for an article he wrote in 2004 in which he said Liverpool fans were partly to blame for the Hillsborough disaster
Reading through all of this, and having been reminded earlier this evening by TV of the UNPUNISHED killing of Ian Tomlinson by PC Harwood, there is only one conclusion left: we need a fukcin revolution.
dont forget the jean charles de menezes and mark duggan murdered in london.
its a shame - i still believe a lot of police, politicians etc want to do good
but clearly there is an environment that allows some people to take advantage
but clearly there is an environment that allows some people to take advantage
i dont blame murdochs empire for this.
yes mckenzie was being a complete **** of the very highest order but what he did was justa fraction compared to what the police did re covering it up.
they used the paper (i mean bog roll) to cover it up.
yes mckenzie was being a complete **** of the very highest order but what he did was justa fraction compared to what the police did re covering it up.
they used the paper (i mean bog roll) to cover it up.
from football 365:
Not Just The Sun
While there is plenty of ire still quite rightly directed at The Sun for their front page 23 years ago, it's worth remembering that they weren't the only paper to repeat and prominently publish the allegations that have been proven not to be true.
'DEAD FANS ROBBED BY DRUNK THUGS' read the front page of The Daily Star on April 18.
'POLICE ACCUSED DRUNKEN FANS' claimed The Daily Express on April 19, with the paper pointing to the 'loutish lack of self-discipline' and the 'impatient jostling and pushing outside the turnstiles' of fans.
An Express leader wrote: 'Many fans turned up without tickets...It is not for them, noisily and self-righteously, to lay the blame for the carnage at the feet of others, as though they themselves are completely blameless.'
And there was more. The Evening Standard wrote:
'How long will it take for it publicly to be acknowledged that fans themselves share the blame?...The catastrophe was caused first and foremost by violent enthusiasm for soccer, in this case the tribal passions of Liverpool supporters. They literally killed themselves and others to be at the game.'
And The Liverpool Daily Post wrote:
'At best it was unfettered zeal. At worst it was uncontrolled fanaticism and mass hysteria which literally squeezed the life out of men, women and children. This was yobbism at its most base. People without tickets who had no right to be there were crushing to death their fellow Scousers. When it comes to apportioning blame, the accusatory finger can also be pointed at Liverpool. Scouse killed Scouse for no better reason than 22 men were kicking a ball.'
So sure, direct your ire at The Sun, but don't reserve it for them.
Not Just The Sun
While there is plenty of ire still quite rightly directed at The Sun for their front page 23 years ago, it's worth remembering that they weren't the only paper to repeat and prominently publish the allegations that have been proven not to be true.
'DEAD FANS ROBBED BY DRUNK THUGS' read the front page of The Daily Star on April 18.
'POLICE ACCUSED DRUNKEN FANS' claimed The Daily Express on April 19, with the paper pointing to the 'loutish lack of self-discipline' and the 'impatient jostling and pushing outside the turnstiles' of fans.
An Express leader wrote: 'Many fans turned up without tickets...It is not for them, noisily and self-righteously, to lay the blame for the carnage at the feet of others, as though they themselves are completely blameless.'
And there was more. The Evening Standard wrote:
'How long will it take for it publicly to be acknowledged that fans themselves share the blame?...The catastrophe was caused first and foremost by violent enthusiasm for soccer, in this case the tribal passions of Liverpool supporters. They literally killed themselves and others to be at the game.'
And The Liverpool Daily Post wrote:
'At best it was unfettered zeal. At worst it was uncontrolled fanaticism and mass hysteria which literally squeezed the life out of men, women and children. This was yobbism at its most base. People without tickets who had no right to be there were crushing to death their fellow Scousers. When it comes to apportioning blame, the accusatory finger can also be pointed at Liverpool. Scouse killed Scouse for no better reason than 22 men were kicking a ball.'
So sure, direct your ire at The Sun, but don't reserve it for them.
Good post MM. I wasn't aware just how widely these reports went. The Standard and LDP are particularly shocking (especially in hindsight).
The Sun was obviously totally out of order, but it is also an easy target.
The Sun was obviously totally out of order, but it is also an easy target.
Sep 13, 2012 -- 9:31PM, G1_Jockey_4 wrote:
i dont blame murdochs empire for this.yes mckenzie was being a complete **** of the very highest order but what he did was justa fraction compared to what the police did re covering it up.they used the paper (i mean bog roll) to cover it up.
Because they knew certain papers - who had their own agenda against football fans - would swallow it without questions.
The Liverpool Daily Post's take on this is truly shocking. It's little wonder they've had to drop the word Daily from their title.
http://www.football365.com/mediawatch/8075362/Mediawatch
The Page That Wants A Sousaphone
It's hardly a surprise that Mr MacKenzie's apology was given short shrift...
Last Updated: 13/09/12 at 13:27
Mediawatch
Latest Articles
The Page That Won't Be Seeking Out The Bath Pics
The sky is falling in and England are on the rocks...
The Page That Will Always Gamble
Not the biggest surprise that the prannets didn't give Rafa big money, grandpa Brendan's big challenge and Roy as smart arse...
All Articles
Not Just The Sun
While there is plenty of ire still quite rightly directed at The Sun for their front page 23 years ago, it's worth remembering that they weren't the only paper to repeat and prominently publish the allegations that have been proven not to be true.
'DEAD FANS ROBBED BY DRUNK THUGS' read the front page of The Daily Star on April 18.
'POLICE ACCUSED DRUNKEN FANS' claimed The Daily Express on April 19, with the paper pointing to the 'loutish lack of self-discipline' and the 'impatient jostling and pushing outside the turnstiles' of fans.
An Express leader wrote: 'Many fans turned up without tickets...It is not for them, noisily and self-righteously, to lay the blame for the carnage at the feet of others, as though they themselves are completely blameless.'
And there was more. The Evening Standard wrote:
'How long will it take for it publicly to be acknowledged that fans themselves share the blame?...The catastrophe was caused first and foremost by violent enthusiasm for soccer, in this case the tribal passions of Liverpool supporters. They literally killed themselves and others to be at the game.'
And The Liverpool Daily Post wrote:
'At best it was unfettered zeal. At worst it was uncontrolled fanaticism and mass hysteria which literally squeezed the life out of men, women and children. This was yobbism at its most base. People without tickets who had no right to be there were crushing to death their fellow Scousers. When it comes to apportioning blame, the accusatory finger can also be pointed at Liverpool. Scouse killed Scouse for no better reason than 22 men were kicking a ball.'
So sure, direct your ire at The Sun, but don't reserve it for them.
The Page That Wants A Sousaphone
It's hardly a surprise that Mr MacKenzie's apology was given short shrift...
Last Updated: 13/09/12 at 13:27
Mediawatch
Latest Articles
The Page That Won't Be Seeking Out The Bath Pics
The sky is falling in and England are on the rocks...
The Page That Will Always Gamble
Not the biggest surprise that the prannets didn't give Rafa big money, grandpa Brendan's big challenge and Roy as smart arse...
All Articles
Not Just The Sun
While there is plenty of ire still quite rightly directed at The Sun for their front page 23 years ago, it's worth remembering that they weren't the only paper to repeat and prominently publish the allegations that have been proven not to be true.
'DEAD FANS ROBBED BY DRUNK THUGS' read the front page of The Daily Star on April 18.
'POLICE ACCUSED DRUNKEN FANS' claimed The Daily Express on April 19, with the paper pointing to the 'loutish lack of self-discipline' and the 'impatient jostling and pushing outside the turnstiles' of fans.
An Express leader wrote: 'Many fans turned up without tickets...It is not for them, noisily and self-righteously, to lay the blame for the carnage at the feet of others, as though they themselves are completely blameless.'
And there was more. The Evening Standard wrote:
'How long will it take for it publicly to be acknowledged that fans themselves share the blame?...The catastrophe was caused first and foremost by violent enthusiasm for soccer, in this case the tribal passions of Liverpool supporters. They literally killed themselves and others to be at the game.'
And The Liverpool Daily Post wrote:
'At best it was unfettered zeal. At worst it was uncontrolled fanaticism and mass hysteria which literally squeezed the life out of men, women and children. This was yobbism at its most base. People without tickets who had no right to be there were crushing to death their fellow Scousers. When it comes to apportioning blame, the accusatory finger can also be pointed at Liverpool. Scouse killed Scouse for no better reason than 22 men were kicking a ball.'
So sure, direct your ire at The Sun, but don't reserve it for them.
Just reflecting on it, the LDP cooments, which sound like they're from an editorial, are more shocking than The Sun report.
Although they were in the wrong, I can easily believe The Sun swallowing a briefing from a Tory MP and a Police force who had 'stood up to the miners'.
I find it incredible that a local paper would rush to a conclusion that ticketless fans were to blame. Quite amazing.
Although they were in the wrong, I can easily believe The Sun swallowing a briefing from a Tory MP and a Police force who had 'stood up to the miners'.
I find it incredible that a local paper would rush to a conclusion that ticketless fans were to blame. Quite amazing.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/hillsborough-everyone-in-football-has-waited-too-long-for-the-lies-to-be-exposed-8131085.html
Hillsborough: Everyone in football has waited too long for the lies to be exposed
It was a bleak, autumnal Liverpool day in 1989 when this correspondent’s working life began in the aftermath of the disaster that still had a hold on the place. It was a tight, grim hold and a prime professional preoccupation of those early weeks – reporting the case of Tony Bland, a 28-year-old who went off to Hillsborough and never saw those he loved again – was not joyful. Bland suffered brain damage that left him in a persistent vegetative state and it took his family four years simply to be allowed to withdraw life-prolonging treatment and allow him to die with dignity.
That short, bleak journey with Bland feels like a short lifetime ago now and makes it seem even more staggering that such an extraordinary volume of previously unknown detail on the fateful FA Cup semi final should have taken until yesterday – another bleak, autumnal one – to be delivered back to Liverpool.
There had been no QCs, no adversarial exchanges, no televised event, no leaks. Simply nine dignified individuals, led by a bishop, in two-and-a-half years of quiet, persistent pursuit of information. The quality and quantity of what they produced took your breath away – and blew away for ever the “3.15 cut-off”, words which have tracked the course of nearly a quarter of a century in this city, effectively clearing the way for the inquests that will surely prove that the deaths of 96 people were caused by misadventure, if not manslaughter.
The single most vital finding from yesterday’s report was that 28 people did not die as the inquest coroner, Stefan Popper, said they had done, and that another 31 had heart and lung functions after the Leppings Lane crush – meaning Popper’s inquests were deeply flawed. And yet, the devil for us all was in the small detail. I do still recall the air of collective indignation and determination within the Liverpool Daily Post offices that autumn of ’89, as a crusading zeal took hold to do the victims justice five months on from Hillsborough. But yesterday it emerged that even “we” had been initially swept along by the tide of lies about Liverpool fans propagated by people such as the Sheffield Tory MP Irvine Patnick, South Yorkshire Police Chief Constable Peter Wright, local Police Federation secretary PC Paul Middup and ex-Football Association chief executive Graham Kelly – and then disseminated by Sheffield’s Whites news agency.
The Panel told us that a mere three days after the disaster the Post’s magisterial columnist of that era, John Williams, wrote of how “gatecrashers wreaked their fatal havoc”, their “uncontrolled mass hysteria … literally squeezed life out of men, women and children.” It was “yobbism at its most base” as “Scouse killed Scouse for no better reason than 22 men were kicking ball…”
Williams’ supreme standard of work before his relatively early death should not allow him to be denigrated but yesterday told us how lies can be halfway around the world before the truth has its trousers on. The Manchester Evening News and Yorkshire Post were not covered in glory by the Panel either. Only The Times’ Simon Barnes immediately offered the enlightened view.
This was such an easy, lazy narrative, swallowed because of the preoccupations of that era – hooliganism, Margaret Thatcher’s membership schemes – and because Heysel was not such a distant memory. It took presence of mind not to swallow the disinformation which was further cooked up in the Pickwick Restaurant in Sheffield, where a 10am Special Joint Branch Board Meeting of the local police federation was held 24 hours after Williams’ article was published. That meeting, we now know, was joined by Wright, the Chief Constable, who wanted to talk about the “trauma” which had been inflicted on the force.
It has been Liverpool’s greatest misfortune that across the course of inquests, tribunals, judicial reviews and scrutinies of evidence, no one arrived to correct the course of this narrative. The media delivered up another cast of bad guys in the guts of the Panel’s evidence yesterday but none of the acts chronicled was more unsavoury than the decision of the now discredited coroner, Popper, to take blood samples from the Hillsborough dead to establish the blood alcohol levels. (“Exceptional” was the word Bishop James Jones used to describe that act. These quiet men and women didn’t go for public character-bashing.) Paragraph 70 of the executive summary also speaks for itself. “A document disclosed to the Panel has revealed that an attempt was made to impugn the reputations of the deceased by carrying out Police National Computer Checks on those with a non-zero alcohol level.”
And somehow, as the years passed by and the memory of Hillsborough faded, Liverpool’s plaintive cries for those 96 lost souls became characterised as those of an obsessive, maudlin city. Boris Johnson said that Liverpool wallowed in a “victim status”, then proceeded to make a choreographed, farcical trip North to say sorry. The editor of The Sun at the time, Kelvin MacKenzie, popped up in December 2006 to say his paper told the truth. “I was not sorry then and I’m not sorry now,” he scoffed. I called his number to ask him more. He put the phone down.
Some did not lose sight of the real story, though. I count in their number Tony Hope, a supporter I met in Anfield Road’s Sandon Lounge on the 2005 night Liverpool won the Champions League in Istanbul when The Independent wanted a report from ground level. Hope repaired to the Hillsborough Memorial at half-time, with his team 3-0 down. His prayers were answered and I reported it. He asked for my business card and rang me on 25 May every year for five years or so. The believers have also included Andy Burnham MP, who paved the way for yesterday’s Panel and is wasted outside Government, and The Guardian’s David Conn, once of this parish.
The story still isn’t finished. Early yesterday afternoon Trevor Hicks, whose description of losing two daughters was as unbearable to hear this week on television as it always is, spoke out to say that prosecutions will be sought now and inquests pursued. A foul rain was beating down outside at the time, reminding us all that this was not a happy moment and that the truth had arrived 23 years too late.
Hillsborough: Everyone in football has waited too long for the lies to be exposed
It was a bleak, autumnal Liverpool day in 1989 when this correspondent’s working life began in the aftermath of the disaster that still had a hold on the place. It was a tight, grim hold and a prime professional preoccupation of those early weeks – reporting the case of Tony Bland, a 28-year-old who went off to Hillsborough and never saw those he loved again – was not joyful. Bland suffered brain damage that left him in a persistent vegetative state and it took his family four years simply to be allowed to withdraw life-prolonging treatment and allow him to die with dignity.
That short, bleak journey with Bland feels like a short lifetime ago now and makes it seem even more staggering that such an extraordinary volume of previously unknown detail on the fateful FA Cup semi final should have taken until yesterday – another bleak, autumnal one – to be delivered back to Liverpool.
There had been no QCs, no adversarial exchanges, no televised event, no leaks. Simply nine dignified individuals, led by a bishop, in two-and-a-half years of quiet, persistent pursuit of information. The quality and quantity of what they produced took your breath away – and blew away for ever the “3.15 cut-off”, words which have tracked the course of nearly a quarter of a century in this city, effectively clearing the way for the inquests that will surely prove that the deaths of 96 people were caused by misadventure, if not manslaughter.
The single most vital finding from yesterday’s report was that 28 people did not die as the inquest coroner, Stefan Popper, said they had done, and that another 31 had heart and lung functions after the Leppings Lane crush – meaning Popper’s inquests were deeply flawed. And yet, the devil for us all was in the small detail. I do still recall the air of collective indignation and determination within the Liverpool Daily Post offices that autumn of ’89, as a crusading zeal took hold to do the victims justice five months on from Hillsborough. But yesterday it emerged that even “we” had been initially swept along by the tide of lies about Liverpool fans propagated by people such as the Sheffield Tory MP Irvine Patnick, South Yorkshire Police Chief Constable Peter Wright, local Police Federation secretary PC Paul Middup and ex-Football Association chief executive Graham Kelly – and then disseminated by Sheffield’s Whites news agency.
The Panel told us that a mere three days after the disaster the Post’s magisterial columnist of that era, John Williams, wrote of how “gatecrashers wreaked their fatal havoc”, their “uncontrolled mass hysteria … literally squeezed life out of men, women and children.” It was “yobbism at its most base” as “Scouse killed Scouse for no better reason than 22 men were kicking ball…”
Williams’ supreme standard of work before his relatively early death should not allow him to be denigrated but yesterday told us how lies can be halfway around the world before the truth has its trousers on. The Manchester Evening News and Yorkshire Post were not covered in glory by the Panel either. Only The Times’ Simon Barnes immediately offered the enlightened view.
This was such an easy, lazy narrative, swallowed because of the preoccupations of that era – hooliganism, Margaret Thatcher’s membership schemes – and because Heysel was not such a distant memory. It took presence of mind not to swallow the disinformation which was further cooked up in the Pickwick Restaurant in Sheffield, where a 10am Special Joint Branch Board Meeting of the local police federation was held 24 hours after Williams’ article was published. That meeting, we now know, was joined by Wright, the Chief Constable, who wanted to talk about the “trauma” which had been inflicted on the force.
It has been Liverpool’s greatest misfortune that across the course of inquests, tribunals, judicial reviews and scrutinies of evidence, no one arrived to correct the course of this narrative. The media delivered up another cast of bad guys in the guts of the Panel’s evidence yesterday but none of the acts chronicled was more unsavoury than the decision of the now discredited coroner, Popper, to take blood samples from the Hillsborough dead to establish the blood alcohol levels. (“Exceptional” was the word Bishop James Jones used to describe that act. These quiet men and women didn’t go for public character-bashing.) Paragraph 70 of the executive summary also speaks for itself. “A document disclosed to the Panel has revealed that an attempt was made to impugn the reputations of the deceased by carrying out Police National Computer Checks on those with a non-zero alcohol level.”
And somehow, as the years passed by and the memory of Hillsborough faded, Liverpool’s plaintive cries for those 96 lost souls became characterised as those of an obsessive, maudlin city. Boris Johnson said that Liverpool wallowed in a “victim status”, then proceeded to make a choreographed, farcical trip North to say sorry. The editor of The Sun at the time, Kelvin MacKenzie, popped up in December 2006 to say his paper told the truth. “I was not sorry then and I’m not sorry now,” he scoffed. I called his number to ask him more. He put the phone down.
Some did not lose sight of the real story, though. I count in their number Tony Hope, a supporter I met in Anfield Road’s Sandon Lounge on the 2005 night Liverpool won the Champions League in Istanbul when The Independent wanted a report from ground level. Hope repaired to the Hillsborough Memorial at half-time, with his team 3-0 down. His prayers were answered and I reported it. He asked for my business card and rang me on 25 May every year for five years or so. The believers have also included Andy Burnham MP, who paved the way for yesterday’s Panel and is wasted outside Government, and The Guardian’s David Conn, once of this parish.
The story still isn’t finished. Early yesterday afternoon Trevor Hicks, whose description of losing two daughters was as unbearable to hear this week on television as it always is, spoke out to say that prosecutions will be sought now and inquests pursued. A foul rain was beating down outside at the time, reminding us all that this was not a happy moment and that the truth had arrived 23 years too late.
I'm not sure it was the paper's view as a whole, just one journalists article. There were other counter articles in the paper I believe.
Plus be careful commenting on cherry-picked sentences, without reading the whole article.
It puts is down in the gutter with some of the tabloids, who follow this route
Plus be careful commenting on cherry-picked sentences, without reading the whole article.
It puts is down in the gutter with some of the tabloids, who follow this route
Yes, BBs latter article posted shows it was a columnist at LDP not an editorial. Not as bad for the paper, but still pretty shocking.
Not sure what you mean about 'cherry picked sentences' if you're referring to the LDP article. It was six sentences and the words were very clea. It was hardly 'out of context'.
Not sure what you mean about 'cherry picked sentences' if you're referring to the LDP article. It was six sentences and the words were very clea. It was hardly 'out of context'.
A complaint against the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police which emerged following the Hillsborough disclosures has been referred to the police watchdog.
Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 01:04 PM
irishexaminer.ie
At today’s meeting of West Yorkshire Police Authority’s Special Committee, its members agreed to record a complaint against the Chief Constable, Sir Norman Bettison, and immediately referred it to the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) for investigation.
Chairman of the Special Committee, Richard Baldwin, said “A number of factors led to the committee taking the decision to refer the complaint to the IPCC, including the gravity of the subject matter, the wholly exceptional circumstances and a pressing need to maintain public confidence in both policing governance and the police complaints system.
“It is important that the facts are fully established and evidence considered from other sources before any further decisions are taken.
“The IPCC, as an independent body with a statutory duty to uphold the police complaints system, is best placed to conduct such investigations.”
Yesterday Sir Norman was forced to apologise for any upset caused by his statement that Liverpool fans’ behaviour made policing at the Hillsborough tragedy “harder than it needed to be”.
He said his role was never to “besmirch” the fans and said the Reds’ supporters were in no way to blame for the disaster.
The chief constable said he was “deeply sorry that impression and slight has lingered for 23 years”.
Sir Norman was an off-duty South Yorkshire Police inspector when he attended the game and was involved in an internal inquiry held by the force in its aftermath.
On Thursday he denied any wrongdoing but sparked fury with his comments, which led to calls for him to resign
Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 01:04 PM
irishexaminer.ie
At today’s meeting of West Yorkshire Police Authority’s Special Committee, its members agreed to record a complaint against the Chief Constable, Sir Norman Bettison, and immediately referred it to the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) for investigation.
Chairman of the Special Committee, Richard Baldwin, said “A number of factors led to the committee taking the decision to refer the complaint to the IPCC, including the gravity of the subject matter, the wholly exceptional circumstances and a pressing need to maintain public confidence in both policing governance and the police complaints system.
“It is important that the facts are fully established and evidence considered from other sources before any further decisions are taken.
“The IPCC, as an independent body with a statutory duty to uphold the police complaints system, is best placed to conduct such investigations.”
Yesterday Sir Norman was forced to apologise for any upset caused by his statement that Liverpool fans’ behaviour made policing at the Hillsborough tragedy “harder than it needed to be”.
He said his role was never to “besmirch” the fans and said the Reds’ supporters were in no way to blame for the disaster.
The chief constable said he was “deeply sorry that impression and slight has lingered for 23 years”.
Sir Norman was an off-duty South Yorkshire Police inspector when he attended the game and was involved in an internal inquiry held by the force in its aftermath.
On Thursday he denied any wrongdoing but sparked fury with his comments, which led to calls for him to resign
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