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How would you feel, if it was shown that Sea the Stars, Frankel, Usian Bolt, were all doped? (for clarity they weren't, this just an analogy)
You would feel cheated, and rightly so.
You may have invested money in a ticket to watch these events, you may have had a bet on their opponents, but it was **** from the start, you couldn't win.
Now, let's examine the rangers case.
The press in scotland happily peddle the myth that scottish football needs rangers, we will go back in time a a bit now to examine this.
In the 1980s, the Scottish league was competitive, despite what you might read in the tabloids.
League winners, pre- souness/murray financial doping era.
1979–80 Aberdeen
1980–81 Celtic
1981–82 Celtic
1982–83 Dundee United
1983–84 Aberdeen
1984–85 Aberdeen
1985–86 Celtic
1986–87 Rangers
During this era, Scotland regularly qualified for world cups, Scottish players were in almost every English top team.
In Europe, Aberdeen won the cup winners cup and super cup, Dundee Utd. got to the uefa cup final and where robbed by Roma of a place in the European cup final itself.
(As a footnote, when rangers weren't winning, it was not uncommon for crowds of less than 10,000 at ibrox.)
So, Murray takes over rangers and, aided and abetted by the bank of scotland, the financial doping starts.
To explain this, let's use an example-
Celtic and rangers want to sign Johnny foreigner, now, Johnny couldn't really give a fling fk about either, he only wants the money.
Celtic say, we will pay you 10 grand a week, ok? (around 5k nett?)
Johnny talks to rangers, they say we wil pay you 10 grand a week... but... you will be keeping almost all of it, you will only be getting around half with Celtic, because they pay taxes there, geddit?
This was done through what is known as an EBT, employee benefit trust, which may deal with image rights and the like, and can be legal, if administered properly.
(Ronaldo, Rooney, Messi, etc. have huge image rights clauses as they are known worldwide.)
What rangers did, was to say, here is some salary, a small amount, that goes through the books, the rest is "loaned" to you, but... you never have to pay the "loan" back.
Now, with this financial advantage, (jeezo i could have managed them to 9 in a row) rangers dominate Scottish football.
You start to see the end of locally produced players, affecting the national team.
Other clubs try to keep up, we had the ridiculous situation of clubs like Dundee signing Ravanelli, Cannigia, Burley etc. we had St. Mirren with Archibald and some good Spanish players, totally unsustainable, as was to be found later.
We touched earlier on the subject of rangers relationship with the Bank of Scotland.
This same bank tried to close Celtic down, in 1994 for a debt of around 5 million. (Celtic were saved by Fergus McCann and others and the fans)
When Lloyds took over the BOS, they looked at rangers figures and almost fainted, (murray group alone was indebted to almost a billion,) they put their own man on the board, under threat of closure.
Even after all this, they could still have got out of the mess, if they had cut their cloth, made a deal with taxman, but that isn't the rangers way.
After being knocked out the champs league qualifier in 2008, by Kaunas, (and losing out on the 10 milion or so) they could have sold some players and run a tight ship, no, they went out and spent another 18 million on players, for what? to win the SPL? Beggars belief.
Even after this, they signed Jelavic, from Rapid, for 4.5 million, Wallace from Hearts, for 1.5 million.
Hearts are still owed 800k from that, Rapid over a million.
We then had the Craig White takeover, lol.
Now, within one hour of this, internet boards had the full list of failed companies this guy had run, how was he decribed in the Scottish media?
"Billionaire", "wealth off the radar" and suchlike nonsense.
So, back to the EBTs.
These players, in effect had double contracts, a big no no.
Every game rangers played that included any of these players has to be recorded as a 3-0 defeat. (to give an example a Scottish team were kicked out the cup for only having one date on a form, you should have 2)
That is over 700 games.
That is league titles lost, cups lost, European runs lost, how do you put a price on that? Impossible.
The Scottish teams who where denied the league and therefore the potential European riches, the teams they knocked out en route to manchester in 2008, they could all feel, quite rightly cheated.
This is the team that Scotland needs?
Scottish football will die without them?
I would take my chances.
You would feel cheated, and rightly so.
You may have invested money in a ticket to watch these events, you may have had a bet on their opponents, but it was **** from the start, you couldn't win.
Now, let's examine the rangers case.
The press in scotland happily peddle the myth that scottish football needs rangers, we will go back in time a a bit now to examine this.
In the 1980s, the Scottish league was competitive, despite what you might read in the tabloids.
League winners, pre- souness/murray financial doping era.
1979–80 Aberdeen
1980–81 Celtic
1981–82 Celtic
1982–83 Dundee United
1983–84 Aberdeen
1984–85 Aberdeen
1985–86 Celtic
1986–87 Rangers
During this era, Scotland regularly qualified for world cups, Scottish players were in almost every English top team.
In Europe, Aberdeen won the cup winners cup and super cup, Dundee Utd. got to the uefa cup final and where robbed by Roma of a place in the European cup final itself.
(As a footnote, when rangers weren't winning, it was not uncommon for crowds of less than 10,000 at ibrox.)
So, Murray takes over rangers and, aided and abetted by the bank of scotland, the financial doping starts.
To explain this, let's use an example-
Celtic and rangers want to sign Johnny foreigner, now, Johnny couldn't really give a fling fk about either, he only wants the money.
Celtic say, we will pay you 10 grand a week, ok? (around 5k nett?)
Johnny talks to rangers, they say we wil pay you 10 grand a week... but... you will be keeping almost all of it, you will only be getting around half with Celtic, because they pay taxes there, geddit?
This was done through what is known as an EBT, employee benefit trust, which may deal with image rights and the like, and can be legal, if administered properly.
(Ronaldo, Rooney, Messi, etc. have huge image rights clauses as they are known worldwide.)
What rangers did, was to say, here is some salary, a small amount, that goes through the books, the rest is "loaned" to you, but... you never have to pay the "loan" back.
Now, with this financial advantage, (jeezo i could have managed them to 9 in a row) rangers dominate Scottish football.
You start to see the end of locally produced players, affecting the national team.
Other clubs try to keep up, we had the ridiculous situation of clubs like Dundee signing Ravanelli, Cannigia, Burley etc. we had St. Mirren with Archibald and some good Spanish players, totally unsustainable, as was to be found later.
We touched earlier on the subject of rangers relationship with the Bank of Scotland.
This same bank tried to close Celtic down, in 1994 for a debt of around 5 million. (Celtic were saved by Fergus McCann and others and the fans)
When Lloyds took over the BOS, they looked at rangers figures and almost fainted, (murray group alone was indebted to almost a billion,) they put their own man on the board, under threat of closure.
Even after all this, they could still have got out of the mess, if they had cut their cloth, made a deal with taxman, but that isn't the rangers way.
After being knocked out the champs league qualifier in 2008, by Kaunas, (and losing out on the 10 milion or so) they could have sold some players and run a tight ship, no, they went out and spent another 18 million on players, for what? to win the SPL? Beggars belief.
Even after this, they signed Jelavic, from Rapid, for 4.5 million, Wallace from Hearts, for 1.5 million.
Hearts are still owed 800k from that, Rapid over a million.
We then had the Craig White takeover, lol.
Now, within one hour of this, internet boards had the full list of failed companies this guy had run, how was he decribed in the Scottish media?
"Billionaire", "wealth off the radar" and suchlike nonsense.
So, back to the EBTs.
These players, in effect had double contracts, a big no no.
Every game rangers played that included any of these players has to be recorded as a 3-0 defeat. (to give an example a Scottish team were kicked out the cup for only having one date on a form, you should have 2)
That is over 700 games.
That is league titles lost, cups lost, European runs lost, how do you put a price on that? Impossible.
The Scottish teams who where denied the league and therefore the potential European riches, the teams they knocked out en route to manchester in 2008, they could all feel, quite rightly cheated.
This is the team that Scotland needs?
Scottish football will die without them?
I would take my chances.
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Thanks for taking the effort to post that Lump On, you have cheered me up no end
.
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A well presented post btw m8, pity it was about my club but there you go the truth hurts.
gretna won 3 league titles by living above their means , they went bust owing every club and the tax man money , no talk of striping these titles no talk of compensation to the clubs that were cheated , sporting integrity nah not yet...
Dundee go on spending spree chasing success attract a few big names, eventually go bust owing every club money and not paying tax, use administration to wipe this debt clear,still no sign of this sporting integrity yet...
Again Dundee use administration to avoid paying clubs , talk of expulsion nah compensation clubs they cheated nah sporting integrity surely ..nope not yet..
Motherwell live above their means and use administration to wipe their debts surely this is unfair on the other teams apparently not ... SPORTING INTEGRITY IN SCOTLAND (TRADEMARK RANGERS)
Dundee go on spending spree chasing success attract a few big names, eventually go bust owing every club money and not paying tax, use administration to wipe this debt clear,still no sign of this sporting integrity yet...
Again Dundee use administration to avoid paying clubs , talk of expulsion nah compensation clubs they cheated nah sporting integrity surely ..nope not yet..
Motherwell live above their means and use administration to wipe their debts surely this is unfair on the other teams apparently not ... SPORTING INTEGRITY IN SCOTLAND (TRADEMARK RANGERS)
Skullery,
I never thought of that m8, never mind, they dont want to hear about this anyway.
It`s all about bashing what is left of the "Rangers".
I never thought of that m8, never mind, they dont want to hear about this anyway.
It`s all about bashing what is left of the "Rangers".
99% of English and Scottish law is based on whataboutery
case precedent
case precedent
Mack i just wish they would send Rangers down to Div 3 get it over with once and for all
Very good read, but lets brush all this under the carpet please, its the rangers way
Good post. Who needs the ****ijg Huns. People seem to think it was always just about Rangers and Celtic - rubbish. In the 70s Aberdeen were almost always challenging but came 2nd or 3rd, Hibernian also. In the 80s Aberdeen took control, Dundee Utd and Hearts also a major threat. There were 5 teams who could have won the league Then from the time you point out it all changed. Money took over. It became a boring league of 2 teams who played each other numerous times. Footnote - who were the last team to win a major European trophy fielding 11 men and one playing sub all from their homeland? Answer Aberdeen. I hope Rngers **** off and maybe then Scottish football will become competitive again.
jesus chicken what are you talking about? brush it under the carpet ? this is the most overly exposed story i have ever come acros , infact if there was a opposite of brushing under the carpet this is it
As a proud Loyalist I want to forget all this, go back to the good old times, buy the big players again and beat the dirty ****s. Thats all that matters.....This needs to be swept under the carpet (Ok, maybe a big hole will be needed to be dug under the carpet to hold all this) and we carry on living in our bubble,,,,, bliss
Yunt.
Dont call us HUNS m8.
We are fighting for our lives ffs!
Dont call us HUNS m8.
We are fighting for our lives ffs!
when Gretna F. C. won their titles they were financed by Brooks Mileson's millions . As history records this was perhaps unwise , but not illegal . When the cash stopped flowing into Gretna F. C. because of Brook Mileson's illness ( and eventual death ) , the club then got into a terrible financial mess .Their league titles were won fairly and squarely , and not by illegal means . So no need to take trophies away from them . They don't exist now anyway . Better to compare the late Rangers F. C. with the likes of Juve' or maybe even Dinamo Berlin .
Good Quiz question, hopefully soon it will be re-worded with 3 teams as opposed to 4.
Who are the only 4 teams currently playing in British top flight football to have never been relegated?
Answer - Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Wigan Athletic
Who are the only 4 teams currently playing in British top flight football to have never been relegated?
Answer - Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Wigan Athletic
Sorry perth you are wrong , Gretna were wound up owing 4 million HMRC players and other clubs...
Full details of its debts are revealed in a document obtained by BBC Scotland.
It lists a total of 139 known creditors including HM Revenue and Customs, former employees and a wide range of other individuals and companies.
The court document, drawn up by administrators Wilson Field Limited, gives a full and detailed account of the club's insolvency.
With land and property assets of only £824,000 against creditors claims of at least £3.7m, it says the club could be wound up and placed in voluntary liquidation.
Administrators' bill
The creditors claims include £1.7m allegedly "loaned" by owner Brooks
Full details of its debts are revealed in a document obtained by BBC Scotland.
It lists a total of 139 known creditors including HM Revenue and Customs, former employees and a wide range of other individuals and companies.
The court document, drawn up by administrators Wilson Field Limited, gives a full and detailed account of the club's insolvency.
With land and property assets of only £824,000 against creditors claims of at least £3.7m, it says the club could be wound up and placed in voluntary liquidation.
Administrators' bill
The creditors claims include £1.7m allegedly "loaned" by owner Brooks
good quiz question.....who are the only two laughing stock teams in world football to put silly little stars above the crest on their shirts who have never won the european cup or world cup......
answer.....rangers and aberdeen.......laugh, i nearly got me **** out
answer.....rangers and aberdeen.......laugh, i nearly got me **** out
Skullery
Politics apart.
I remember taking my boy to Stark`s Park years ago to watch Raith against Gretna.
Gretna won 3-1 & were 8/13 to win on the day which I availed myself about big time.
We had to be escorted to the Gretna end at half time as I cheered the whites when they went a goal up in the first half lol.
Politics apart.
I remember taking my boy to Stark`s Park years ago to watch Raith against Gretna.
Gretna won 3-1 & were 8/13 to win on the day which I availed myself about big time.
We had to be escorted to the Gretna end at half time as I cheered the whites when they went a goal up in the first half lol.
can i not say ****..which is sgaf backwards....wasn't using it in a gay way...so if i've offended any poufs i apologise
mack...Just think mack if Scottish sporting integrity had been invented years earlier and the SFA had used their delorean to wipe history you and your boy would not have been at that game
FFS numbskull, are you still at it 
It's everybody else's fault, what about the big boys that did it and ran away
Geez peace
Now just get yirselz tae phuck
It's everybody else's fault, what about the big boys that did it and ran away
Geez peace
Now just get yirselz tae phuck
flyget ... mancity have 3 stars above their crest , anyone know why ?
I think it has been established by many on here, you dont have the brains for a debate BRAVE ..
skullery , I am not on here to defend Gretna F. C. I know the S.P.L. had to pay the wages of their staff just to see them through to the end of the 07/08 season . So the S.P.L. fixtures could be played .But I still have to be convinced that they used illegal methods to gain their championships . They won division 3 then 2 then 1st division in 3 years running .Then they were in the S.P.L. playing their home matches at Fir Park Motherwell ,drawing pathetic crowds and paying for the hire of the ground . Brooks Mileson's money ( that was the lifeblood of the club ) dried up when he became seriously ill . There were contract disputes . The points total was almost a league record low . They were relegated months before the end of the season . The club was demoted to division 3 , where doubts about finances forced the club to dissolve itself.The fans formed a new club ( Gretna 2008 )that had no legal links with Gretna F.C. My guess is that things were ok on the financial front until the 07/08 season . The success they enjoyed winning trophies was prior to their financial malaise .Unless it can be proved their financial mismanagement gave them an unfair advantage when they were in the process of winning championships , their titles should remain on the record book . It was interesting to note that the administrators put in a bill of over 250,000 , that did nothing to help their debts of almost £4 million . To sum up they overstretched themselves and paid the ultimate price ; they ceased to exist !
north - I admire your optimism in hoping to elicit a comparably sensible response from numbskull
perth.....( the rise and fall of Gretna), Brooks mileson put 3 million into Gretna 1st and second division, IN 2006 to secure SPL PROMOTION he put 5million into gretna it is this 5 million ( overdraft) that put the club in trouble , after the collapse of his companies , he could no longer be the secured or guarantee of this overdraft ( gretna were now on their own ).
Now as i have said Rangers are guilty and should be punished and sent to DIV3 ..
let me just show you a few examples this mock outrage
gretna headlines going bust..
End of a romantic dream ..
fairyale ending for gretna (daily record )nothing about players not getting paid , no outrage at HMRC NOT GETTING PAID .
Now as i have said Rangers are guilty and should be punished and sent to DIV3 ..
let me just show you a few examples this mock outrage
gretna headlines going bust..
End of a romantic dream ..
fairyale ending for gretna (daily record )nothing about players not getting paid , no outrage at HMRC NOT GETTING PAID .
Skullery , are you then saying that Getna F. C. should be stripped of the 1st division title . Because it was done on unpaid credit . Or that they are stripped of all trophies that they won , because eventually they were caught out financially and dissolved .I don't seem to have the indepth knowledge on their past tradings as you do , but I can't see how trophies won on merit ( sport wise and financially ) can be taken away . If you think a football club cannot win a trophy simply because they are in debt , then a hell of a lot of trophies will be getting stripped .I would imagine almost all !!!!!
Sussed it now 
If we all agree to being retrospectively outraged by HMRC not getting paid by Gretna,
der hun will then agree to getting themselves tae phuck
If we all agree to being retrospectively outraged by HMRC not getting paid by Gretna,
der hun will then agree to getting themselves tae phuck
As Cloughie might have said: "Put all those medals and
cups in a big bin, they are worthless because you
f**king cheated to win them"
cups in a big bin, they are worthless because you
f**king cheated to win them"
quote.... are you then saying that Getna F. C. should be stripped of the 1st division title . Because it was done on unpaid credit . Or that they are stripped of all trophies that they won , because eventually they were caught out financially and dissolved .
swap gretna for Rangers and that is exactly what everyone is saying..but add mock public outcry and hatred oh and dont forget sporting integrity .
Gretna ...ahh the fairytale ends
.... romantic dream dies
Rangers ... cheats tax dodgers
see the difference ..
swap gretna for Rangers and that is exactly what everyone is saying..but add mock public outcry and hatred oh and dont forget sporting integrity .
Gretna ...ahh the fairytale ends
.... romantic dream dies
Rangers ... cheats tax dodgers
see the difference ..
gretna cheated hmrc out of few hundred grand......der hun owes anything upto 150 million to the british tax payers....maybe if the chairman/directors/management/players paid some of the taxes that they owe,they wouldn't be called cheating fraudulent shtsyers..which of course they are.
so Gretna( half a mil HMRC ) dundee Motherwell are all innocent,
and Rangers are guilty with prejudice due to the amount .
and Rangers are guilty with prejudice due to the amount .
it's called prospective.....gretna do not exist anymore....as much as i'd like the same to happen to rangers, it won't......meanwhile the british tax payers has to make up the shortfall that rangers have stolen from the exchequer.....you owe us 3 brand new hospitals...so pay up.
Given the amount of taxpayer money that must go straight from the benefit office via buckfast stained hands straight into Celtic PLC coffers, technically speaking not paying tax was probably justified from a rivalry perspective.
nothing has changed it is mock outrage cos its Rangers , new Rangers old rangers still the most successful club in Scotland end of debate ...
quote...120 years of cheating by this time next week it will be 144 years ..
go on Einstien tell us about the 24 years we never cheated 144 -120
by this time next week it will be 144 years ..go on Einstien tell us about the 24 years we never cheated 144 -120
Re-assessed..
Who are the only 4 clubs currently playing in British top flight football never to be relegated from that division?
Ans: Celtic, Aberdeen, Wigan Ath and Ross Co.
Who are the only 2 teams currently in top division never to be relegated at all, ie from any division?
Ans: Celtic, Aberdeen
Who are the only 4 clubs currently playing in British top flight football never to be relegated from that division?
Ans: Celtic, Aberdeen, Wigan Ath and Ross Co.
Who are the only 2 teams currently in top division never to be relegated at all, ie from any division?
Ans: Celtic, Aberdeen
Rangers minded people will have revenge.no tv money.no sponsorship.Scottish football as we know it is dying,get used to supporting english teams.
1st post absolutely spot on....rangers are dead..rejoice
29/4/2012- Your Day is Coming !!!
Don't moan and groan at all the clubs you kicked for years, giving it back. Get answers from Minty Moonbeams ! Remember for every fiver we spent you'd spend a tenner. You reap what you sow and if Scottish football dies for today's decision well it was Murray who killed it not the other clubs !
You'll not be missed !
Don't moan and groan at all the clubs you kicked for years, giving it back. Get answers from Minty Moonbeams ! Remember for every fiver we spent you'd spend a tenner. You reap what you sow and if Scottish football dies for today's decision well it was Murray who killed it not the other clubs !
You'll not be missed !
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