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to put this in perspective - Tranmere had a similar amount for the Leyland Daf homecoming in 1991. Liverpool had 1 million in 2005.
I hope these facts help when when we debate about big clubs.
I hope these facts help when when we debate about big clubs.
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tony_soprano2
21 May 12 14:06
Liverpool had 1 million in 2005
yes, but only cos the bus happened to go past a benefits office on dole day
21 May 12 14:06
Liverpool had 1 million in 2005
yes, but only cos the bus happened to go past a benefits office on dole day
What i'd like to know is who counts the people attending?
Not a chance there were less than 80,000 in Seville, but guestimates of 20,000,000
are over egging the omelette a wee bit
are over egging the omelette a wee bit
DOESN´T MATTER ONE DIDDLY BIT.....
NOW DAYS ITS WHOEVER HAS THE RICHEST OWNERS WINS....
SOMETHINK LIVERPOOL SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF BEFORE KNOCKING BACK THE ARABS IN 2007
NOW DAYS ITS WHOEVER HAS THE RICHEST OWNERS WINS....
SOMETHINK LIVERPOOL SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF BEFORE KNOCKING BACK THE ARABS IN 2007
Mr Soprano,just shows who the club is with the most glory-hunters.
Luton had 30,000 fans at Wembley yesterday against York's 8,000 but it didnt do them much good, likewise the likes of Sheffield Wednesday/United and Leeds whilst Wigan and QPR laud it up in the Prem. Chelsea's average attendance is only 2,000 less than Liverpools anyway!
Chopper we haven't won the league for over 20 years....your point is not very well thought through
Other reports say 200,000 lots were still coming back from Munich, another thing is how many Chelsea fans live in Chelsea, most would have been on the piss the night before, Liverpool fans try and show a bit of class for once. Understandably the yids are pissed off but most true fans of other teams would have been happy for the cup with the big ears to be won by an English team.
CHELSEA WERE PROUD OF YOU.
CHELSEA WERE PROUD OF YOU.
Biancoceleste - if liverpool had a bigger stadium we would have a far bigger average attendance than chelsea.
liverpool wouldnt fill a bigger stadium.
as soon as they start losing they get thousands of empty seats
http://forums.thisisanfield.com/index.php?/topic/12969-empty-seats-prove-hodgson-lfc-relationship-doomed-mark-lawrenson/
as soon as they start losing they get thousands of empty seats
http://forums.thisisanfield.com/index.php?/topic/12969-empty-seats-prove-hodgson-lfc-relationship-doomed-mark-lawrenson/
Why don't you always sell out?
I'm not disputing the size of Liverpool as a club anyway, just stating how sad and jealous Liverpool fans have been for so long without winning the league, you were disliked when you were good but for different reasons to now.
The parade for Chelsea is not just what was shown on T.V that was the final place the bus stopped.
We sold all our tickets for the final plus the 20,000 or so without who couldn't be at the parade due to travelling back from the final, anyway we did it.
I'm not disputing the size of Liverpool as a club anyway, just stating how sad and jealous Liverpool fans have been for so long without winning the league, you were disliked when you were good but for different reasons to now.
The parade for Chelsea is not just what was shown on T.V that was the final place the bus stopped.
We sold all our tickets for the final plus the 20,000 or so without who couldn't be at the parade due to travelling back from the final, anyway we did it.
tony_soprano2
21 May 12 20:00
not bollox angel. just a fact
but you cant fill the stadium you've got (see previous link)
21 May 12 20:00
not bollox angel. just a fact
but you cant fill the stadium you've got (see previous link)
It was a pretty lame parade seeing as they had just won the Champions League. I guess this was reflected in the low profile it was given on the news channels.
When Liverpool and Man U won, the parades themselves were big news.
Guess its not much of a parade with a few thousand local supporters and a Russian billionaire.
When Liverpool and Man U won, the parades themselves were big news.
Guess its not much of a parade with a few thousand local supporters and a Russian billionaire.
The sad thread starter will desperately try for anything. Dont care if there was no-one there. I was there yesterday couldnt give a shoite European Champions 2012. Never mind sweetcheeks
carlos12345 21 May 12 20:09
It was a pretty lame parade seeing as they had just won the Champions League. I guess this was reflected in the low profile it was given on the news channels.
When Liverpool and Man U won, the parades themselves were big news.
Guess its not much of a parade with a few thousand local supporters and a Russian billionaire.
What a load of nonsense people will desperately grasp onto anything
It was a pretty lame parade seeing as they had just won the Champions League. I guess this was reflected in the low profile it was given on the news channels.
When Liverpool and Man U won, the parades themselves were big news.
Guess its not much of a parade with a few thousand local supporters and a Russian billionaire.
What a load of nonsense people will desperately grasp onto anything
bet you had a great time sj
ive never been to a trophy parade. can imagine its very emotional
ive never been to a trophy parade. can imagine its very emotional
Nice and intimate with your mates there. Not like one of those big parades the big teams have eh?
Big teams? Only 22 teams have won the European cup, only 5 from England big enough for me
Lovely day out , plenty of room to walk round , no queues at the bars and loads of parking space
Hamburg, Celtic, Red Star Belgrade, Dortmund, PSV, Aston Villa, Steaua Beucharest and now Chelsea. All one time winners.
SJ doesn't hurt at all. I just find the whole chelsea thing very embarrassing.
Why am I sad? for pointing out you're not a big team? Or that you have plastic fans with no passion for the game? Did you take your plastic flag with you?
Why am I sad? for pointing out you're not a big team? Or that you have plastic fans with no passion for the game? Did you take your plastic flag with you?
http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/season-ticket-waiting-list
Angel: We've got a season ticket waiting list of 70,000 plus. Given what's happened to our club over the past few years it's understandable some people are going to get p1ssed off. But if a new manager can get us playing at the level we need to, then we'd have no problems filling a big stadium.
Angel: We've got a season ticket waiting list of 70,000 plus. Given what's happened to our club over the past few years it's understandable some people are going to get p1ssed off. But if a new manager can get us playing at the level we need to, then we'd have no problems filling a big stadium.
"Liverpool had 1 million in 2005."
Christ almighty its like the first sex pistols gig isnt, or seeing the beatles at the cavern
first it was 100,000
then it was 250,000
then a few years later it was 500,000
now its 1million
(more than twice the population of the entire city)
give it another 10 years of Liverpool decline and it will be 50million
What next
240 year waiting list for season tickets, honest...
****ing crackers
Christ almighty its like the first sex pistols gig isnt, or seeing the beatles at the cavern
first it was 100,000
then it was 250,000
then a few years later it was 500,000
now its 1million
(more than twice the population of the entire city)
give it another 10 years of Liverpool decline and it will be 50million
What next
240 year waiting list for season tickets, honest...
****ing crackers
if a new manager can get us playing at the level we need to, then we'd have no problems filling a big stadium
ffs, you can say that about any team. in reality, as soon as you started playing badly the fans fecked off and you had 12,000+ empty seats
ffs, you can say that about any team. in reality, as soon as you started playing badly the fans fecked off and you had 12,000+ empty seats
tony_soprano2 21 May 12 20:20
SJ doesn't hurt at all. I just find the whole chelsea thing very embarrassing.
Why am I sad? for pointing out you're not a big team? Or that you have plastic fans with no passion for the game? Did you take your plastic flag with you?
Cos you have to lie babycakes. Where are you getting your 70,000 and million figures from babe? It hurts doesnt it eh? One minute they're plastic fans one minute they're racists. Go do do some research babe. Try youtube mate and the 70's and 80's away support then come back once you've stopped crying about saturday night
SJ doesn't hurt at all. I just find the whole chelsea thing very embarrassing.
Why am I sad? for pointing out you're not a big team? Or that you have plastic fans with no passion for the game? Did you take your plastic flag with you?
Cos you have to lie babycakes. Where are you getting your 70,000 and million figures from babe? It hurts doesnt it eh? One minute they're plastic fans one minute they're racists. Go do do some research babe. Try youtube mate and the 70's and 80's away support then come back once you've stopped crying about saturday night
pootle you are a bitter bore
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/4581645.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/4581645.stm
Pootle 21 May 12 20:23
"Liverpool had 1 million in 2005."
Christ almighty its like the first sex pistols gig isnt, or seeing the beatles at the cavern
first it was 100,000
then it was 250,000
then a few years later it was 500,000
now its 1million
(more than twice the population of the entire city)
give it another 10 years of Liverpool decline and it will be 50million
Classic aint it?
What next
240 year waiting list for season tickets, honest...
****ing crackers
"Liverpool had 1 million in 2005."
Christ almighty its like the first sex pistols gig isnt, or seeing the beatles at the cavern
first it was 100,000
then it was 250,000
then a few years later it was 500,000
now its 1million
(more than twice the population of the entire city)
give it another 10 years of Liverpool decline and it will be 50million
Classic aint it?
What next
240 year waiting list for season tickets, honest...
****ing crackers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCQqiOlhY8c
Now go and have a lie down mongoloid mike. And that was when we're shoite. Get over saturday it happens
Now go and have a lie down mongoloid mike. And that was when we're shoite. Get over saturday it happens
So you believe that more than twice the population of the entire city turned up ? Forget what a radio presenter said, and think for a minute, do you actually believe thats true, and logistically possible?
There arent enough flights from norway for starters.
As for bitter, I'll leave that to you trying to score points on chelsea with your bitter thread
Most delusional fans on the planet, here is to another summer of the final piece of the jigsaw
There arent enough flights from norway for starters.
As for bitter, I'll leave that to you trying to score points on chelsea with your bitter thread
Most delusional fans on the planet, here is to another summer of the final piece of the jigsaw
Chelsea are NOT a big club when it comes to fan base that is a fact but that means nothing imo
Why do they need to be a big fan base club?
Man Utd / Liverpool & Celtic are by far the biggest clubs fan base wise on these shores
Fans do not = success
Why do they need to be a big fan base club?
Man Utd / Liverpool & Celtic are by far the biggest clubs fan base wise on these shores
Fans do not = success
Pootle the scenes are there for all to see on You tube. However many there were there, it was an immense night and there aren't many clubs who could rival that.
When people say we're no longer a big club people should look at those scenes.
When people say we're no longer a big club people should look at those scenes.
Pootle the scenes are there for all to see on You tube. However many there were there, it was an immense night and there aren't many clubs who could rival that.
When people say we're no longer a big club people should look at those scenes.
When people say we're no longer a big club people should look at those scenes.
Oh LOL he's a Liverpool fan PMSL. Did you count the million on youtube?
one triumph in 20 years doesnt make you big club. it makes the triumph a novelty.
May 21, 2012 -- 8:18PM, carlos12345 wrote:
Hamburg, Celtic, Red Star Belgrade, Dortmund, PSV, Aston Villa, Steaua Beucharest and now Chelsea. All one time winners.
WHO WERE THE FIRST BRITISH WINNERS ?
I don't think anyone is stupid enough to say Chelsea aren't a big club, THEY ARE
But fan base wise they are a million miles behind the 3 I mentioned and others and it will never ever be close but that is not a barometer for success it is simply the amount of people follow the club.
I think it is a testament to teams like Liverpool especially that they have so many world wide fans despite not title in so many years yet the fans keep turning up.
Newcastle also might not be world wide but have such fantastic home based fans that truly do deserve success based on how many turn up year after year despite no trophies.
THEY are the types of fans I respect rather than the band wagon jumpers who seem to frequent this and other forums
But fan base wise they are a million miles behind the 3 I mentioned and others and it will never ever be close but that is not a barometer for success it is simply the amount of people follow the club.
I think it is a testament to teams like Liverpool especially that they have so many world wide fans despite not title in so many years yet the fans keep turning up.
Newcastle also might not be world wide but have such fantastic home based fans that truly do deserve success based on how many turn up year after year despite no trophies.
THEY are the types of fans I respect rather than the band wagon jumpers who seem to frequent this and other forums
I think it is a testament to teams like Liverpool especially that they have so many world wide fans despite not title in so many years yet the fans keep turning up
but they don't. see my link earlier to 12,000+ empty seats
but they don't. see my link earlier to 12,000+ empty seats
Newcastle? Pretty sure I saw the Cockney mafia protests earlier this year and last year. They went away when they started doing well but its still the same owner
Chelsea so actually have a fair fanbase worldwide from being in the Champions League for so many years. But in the UK it's actually quite small considering. Sunderland, Villa, Newcastle and Everton all have bigger UK fan-bases.
I've always said Liverpool are a big club, there are threads on here I argued it with Dawsy and others. Liverpool is still in the top 5 supported clubs in the world, with United, Barca, Madrid. No argument there from me at all, and is the second most successful in the country / joint most successful depending how you want to count things.
BUT numbers get massively exaggerated at such things, it was packed outside St Georges hall, but the numbers are just pulled out of the medias arse.
Take the recent 3 days of the 'Sea Giants' Over 3 Days they reckon 600,000 people went to the town centre to see the Giants. That is spread over 3 days, so 1million in one day, when half the city was staying indoors is unlikely.
Thing is there are different ways to measure 'big club'
Fan base, Overall Success
but there is also recent success to take into account (and I dont mean the league cup - sorry)
In terms of attracting players and a new manager, you arent a big club right now, you arent in the champions league and you will have a tough time getting back in it (it wont be next season no matter who you appoint) that means you cant attract players or managers who want champions league football, or who already have it.
The problem you face is that there are 6 rich clubs in England now, and only 4 champions league spots.
Have you seen the new money figures for it as well - next season prize money throughout is effectively double this seasons
Unless the CL opens to 6 clubs, 2 of the rich 6 are going to find it hard over the next few years.
So yeah, lots of supporters and a big club in global terms, but no way did 1million people turn out that day and also, lots of fans ultimately doesnt mean **** all compared to champions league footy
Sheff Wed get 30000 a week, they arent a big club anymore.
BUT numbers get massively exaggerated at such things, it was packed outside St Georges hall, but the numbers are just pulled out of the medias arse.
Take the recent 3 days of the 'Sea Giants' Over 3 Days they reckon 600,000 people went to the town centre to see the Giants. That is spread over 3 days, so 1million in one day, when half the city was staying indoors is unlikely.
Thing is there are different ways to measure 'big club'
Fan base, Overall Success
but there is also recent success to take into account (and I dont mean the league cup - sorry)
In terms of attracting players and a new manager, you arent a big club right now, you arent in the champions league and you will have a tough time getting back in it (it wont be next season no matter who you appoint) that means you cant attract players or managers who want champions league football, or who already have it.
The problem you face is that there are 6 rich clubs in England now, and only 4 champions league spots.
Have you seen the new money figures for it as well - next season prize money throughout is effectively double this seasons
Unless the CL opens to 6 clubs, 2 of the rich 6 are going to find it hard over the next few years.
So yeah, lots of supporters and a big club in global terms, but no way did 1million people turn out that day and also, lots of fans ultimately doesnt mean **** all compared to champions league footy
Sheff Wed get 30000 a week, they arent a big club anymore.
Hamsterdam 21 May 12 20:49
Chelsea so actually have a fair fanbase worldwide from being in the Champions League for so many years. But in the UK it's actually quite small considering. Sunderland, Villa, Newcastle and Everton all have bigger UK fan-bases.
Not according to this
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/real-football/373861-all-time-english-league-attendance-records.html
Villa and Everton are rarely sold out
Chelsea so actually have a fair fanbase worldwide from being in the Champions League for so many years. But in the UK it's actually quite small considering. Sunderland, Villa, Newcastle and Everton all have bigger UK fan-bases.
Not according to this
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/real-football/373861-all-time-english-league-attendance-records.html
Villa and Everton are rarely sold out
I think it is a testament to teams like Liverpool especially that they have so many world wide fans despite not title in so many years yet the fans keep turning up.
THEY are the types of fans I respect rather than the band wagon jumpers who seem to frequent this and other forums
Thing is, most of the worldwide fans of any club, are band wagon jumpers.
Thats not a dig at Liverpool, its just true or all sports / over seas fans.
Most over sea fans of clubs in any sport, have zero relation to a team other than they see them win something so start supporting them
THEY are the types of fans I respect rather than the band wagon jumpers who seem to frequent this and other forums
Thing is, most of the worldwide fans of any club, are band wagon jumpers.
Thats not a dig at Liverpool, its just true or all sports / over seas fans.
Most over sea fans of clubs in any sport, have zero relation to a team other than they see them win something so start supporting them
ffs, you can say that about any team. in reality, as soon as you started playing badly the fans fecked off and you had 12,000+ empty seats
We're not talking about any team though. We're talking about a side that hasn't won the title for over 20 years, yet only Real Madrid, United, & Barcelona, sell more replica shirts. Do you think United would sell out game after game if they were in a similar position ? Not a chance.
Back in the 80's, United had a crowd of 55,000 for a home league match against Liverpool. The next home league game was against Wimbledon, & the attendance was a paltry 39,000. So your support has always been just as fickle.
We're not talking about any team though. We're talking about a side that hasn't won the title for over 20 years, yet only Real Madrid, United, & Barcelona, sell more replica shirts. Do you think United would sell out game after game if they were in a similar position ? Not a chance.
Back in the 80's, United had a crowd of 55,000 for a home league match against Liverpool. The next home league game was against Wimbledon, & the attendance was a paltry 39,000. So your support has always been just as fickle.
yes thats true, thats why i dont make stupid comments.
you are saying that if liverpool had a bigger stadium they would fill it. i disagree saying they are not succcessful enough.
you then go on to say that unsuccessful teams (like united in the 80s) didnt fill their stadiums (which is true, they didnt fill their stadiums).
thus you are contradicting yourself, and proving my point. unsuccessful teams dont fill very large stadiums (a point you make yourself)
you are saying that if liverpool had a bigger stadium they would fill it. i disagree saying they are not succcessful enough.
you then go on to say that unsuccessful teams (like united in the 80s) didnt fill their stadiums (which is true, they didnt fill their stadiums).
thus you are contradicting yourself, and proving my point. unsuccessful teams dont fill very large stadiums (a point you make yourself)
the thing that would go against liverpool in the bigger stadium debate is that they would be doing it at the wrong time in the cyclical way football goes.
when arsenal did it they were at the top, thus there was plenty of demand.
liverpool would not be able to fund a new stadium whilst at the same time make enough money available to the team manager to make the necessary purchases to get them into the cl, therefore the demand for more seats would not be as intense.
regarding this waiting list thing; every club knows that this is the flakiest stat they work with. it's one thing being on the list, it's another having to stump up the readies when offered a ticket, the drop out rate is phenomenal.
when arsenal did it they were at the top, thus there was plenty of demand.
liverpool would not be able to fund a new stadium whilst at the same time make enough money available to the team manager to make the necessary purchases to get them into the cl, therefore the demand for more seats would not be as intense.
regarding this waiting list thing; every club knows that this is the flakiest stat they work with. it's one thing being on the list, it's another having to stump up the readies when offered a ticket, the drop out rate is phenomenal.
FallenAngel,
The reason Liverpool weren't filling the stadium in 2010 was partly down to Woy, but mainly down to fans boycotting the owners, and It worked because eventually the fans forced them out.
How is the Green and Gold campaign going by the way?
The reason Liverpool weren't filling the stadium in 2010 was partly down to Woy, but mainly down to fans boycotting the owners, and It worked because eventually the fans forced them out.
How is the Green and Gold campaign going by the way?
Liverpool would fill 60k pretty much every week and 65k some but not all weeks I reckon.
I know a lad been on the season ticket list for a few years, but in that time he hasnt missed a home game, he wants a season ticket but he still goes anyway.
Its not like Liverpool sell 42000 season tickets every season, they cap them, at around 26,000 (I am sure one of them knows exact number?).
So there are people on the list who go anyway. Plus 70,000 is the number of people who have registered interest in a season ticket since 1996, it doesnt mean everyone would buy one now.
Its moot anyway, they aint building a new stadium any time soon, no one is
I know a lad been on the season ticket list for a few years, but in that time he hasnt missed a home game, he wants a season ticket but he still goes anyway.
Its not like Liverpool sell 42000 season tickets every season, they cap them, at around 26,000 (I am sure one of them knows exact number?).
So there are people on the list who go anyway. Plus 70,000 is the number of people who have registered interest in a season ticket since 1996, it doesnt mean everyone would buy one now.
Its moot anyway, they aint building a new stadium any time soon, no one is
Chelsea fans....now this is how proper clubs do a homecoming..
http://www.itnsource.com/en/shotlist/ITN/1982/05/28/AS280582003/?s=aston+villa+1982&st=0&pn=1
http://www.itnsource.com/en/shotlist/ITN/1982/05/28/AS280582003/?s=aston+villa+1982&st=0&pn=1
suso - the green and gold protests? probably petered out due to combination of apathy and united being able to challenge for honours. if a team is doing well the fans are happy, if not they complain. you know that yourself for your previous owners.
regarding comments about liverpool filling a 60,000 all weeks and 65,000 some weeks. I doubt that very much. but liverpools grasp of numbers never has been great. look at the posts claiming 1M turned up to see the CL trophy!!! look at the schoolboy thread about how many years since united won the title (the irony of liverpool fans posting on that makes them look even more deluded than ever).
liverpool seem to spend all the time talking about what they did or dreaming of what they could do if only they had blah blah and blah. You want to spend some time looking at where you are and start realising the situation. the job for liverpool is to try to start challenging for league honours and stop being just another club in the league.
regarding comments about liverpool filling a 60,000 all weeks and 65,000 some weeks. I doubt that very much. but liverpools grasp of numbers never has been great. look at the posts claiming 1M turned up to see the CL trophy!!! look at the schoolboy thread about how many years since united won the title (the irony of liverpool fans posting on that makes them look even more deluded than ever).
liverpool seem to spend all the time talking about what they did or dreaming of what they could do if only they had blah blah and blah. You want to spend some time looking at where you are and start realising the situation. the job for liverpool is to try to start challenging for league honours and stop being just another club in the league.
regarding comments about liverpool filling a 60,000 all weeks and 65,000 some weeks. I doubt that very much. but liverpools grasp of numbers never has been great. look at the posts claiming 1M turned up to see the CL trophy!!! look at the schoolboy thread about how many years since united won the title (the irony of liverpool fans posting on that makes them look even more deluded than ever).
Liverpool's current capacity is approx 45,000. Last season, despite only winning 6 league games at home, our average attendance was 44,248. Some opposition clubs not selling their full allowance is the reason why we never played to a full house every game. You posted a link relating to the Bolton game a couple of seasons ago when a large number of fans boycotted the game because of Roy Hodgson. The vast majority of those empty seats were season ticket holders. You're out of your tree if you think that LFC were sitting on 10,000 unsold tickets. You have absolutely no idea of how difficult it is to obtain a ticket for a Liverpool home game. My son & myself have been on the waiting list for over 7 years now. I know lots of people who haven't gone on the waiting list because of the length of time they'll have to wait. So only a blinkered fool would dismiss an official club statement saying there are over 70,000 people on the list. & only a blind fool would come to the conclusion, that even in our current state of affairs, LFC would have trouble in filling a much bigger stadium.
Liverpool's current capacity is approx 45,000. Last season, despite only winning 6 league games at home, our average attendance was 44,248. Some opposition clubs not selling their full allowance is the reason why we never played to a full house every game. You posted a link relating to the Bolton game a couple of seasons ago when a large number of fans boycotted the game because of Roy Hodgson. The vast majority of those empty seats were season ticket holders. You're out of your tree if you think that LFC were sitting on 10,000 unsold tickets. You have absolutely no idea of how difficult it is to obtain a ticket for a Liverpool home game. My son & myself have been on the waiting list for over 7 years now. I know lots of people who haven't gone on the waiting list because of the length of time they'll have to wait. So only a blinkered fool would dismiss an official club statement saying there are over 70,000 people on the list. & only a blind fool would come to the conclusion, that even in our current state of affairs, LFC would have trouble in filling a much bigger stadium.
Wouldn't it be better to just show some class and congratulate Chelsea instead of being bitter. I mean , I'm a Fulham fan and have spent most of my life disliking the Blues intensely , but even I can acknowledge what they've just achieved .
like i said, liverpool fans are all about "what we were", and "what we would do if only we had". never about what they are now (by that i mean the last 20+ years)
as the premier league goes, they're just another club
as the premier league goes, they're just another club
70k?
there were only a few hundred who turned up for the parade, and that includes the players staff and friends
there were only a few hundred who turned up for the parade, and that includes the players staff and friends
by the way, united need 3 or 4 very good signings to challenge for the title again this year. hopefully they will get them. if not, then the target will be CL qualification and not the title.
just being realistic about our chances. leave the blinkered stuff to other fans.
just being realistic about our chances. leave the blinkered stuff to other fans.
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