Woman in bank criticised my gambling

Srich:

If you're a successful gambler you should maintain a float in betfair, then regularly withdraw small amounts from betfair and when you need the money.

But you're making regular small deposits and occasional large withdrawls (your words), which is not the profile of a successful gambler.

why isnt it? I dont make consistent profit, I build up my finances on Betfair, then withdraw them when I need to, there is no point putting small amounts in the bank and then putting them into Betfair again later on, that would make the bank situation worse.

But that's exactly what you're doing! Exactly what you say will make things worse is what you're doing. You're making a large withdrawl then putting it back in later!

Why not just leave £100 in your betfair account which you use to make money, and then every week withdraw down to £100.

That way you're never depositing, only withdrawing.

You're making the same amount of money, without all the depositing only to withdraw when you need it.

Srich..Cannot have it.Why draw attention to yourself by going overdrawn.Keep plenty of money in your current account and let them contact you ...

I think what I may do is withdraw funds to that account, take it out in cash and pay it into another account to deposit with.

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer this one.

ah, now the insults start, knew you were on here to get a bit of trolling in before bedtime.

was she fit or a minger?

she was on the phone, but the one from December was a minger.

and I have not seen her in the branch since, so she was obviously not good at the job or got promoted, the latter of which seems unlikely.

You just suggesting that you do something that we all told you to do a few pages back, so I hinted to a slower wit.

I'm not here to troll, I'm here to point out that you don't seem to be being realistic about the income you're generating from betfair. If you're having to withdraw £100 from betfair because you "need the cash" then betfair clearly isn't providing you a £200/week that even a minimum wage job can provide.

Im realistic enough to know that it is enough to keep me going without having to work, and that it has the potential to make a big profit at any time during the year, which going to work and spending money on booze on a Friday night, spending the weekend hungover and going to work again the next week would not do.

why does she care what going in and out of your bank account? what does she gain from critising you? people like this are really annoying

because she sees the word Betfair on the statement, thinks that I am going to run up a huge debt, despite never having done so in nine years on this site, and makes a moral judgement.

They seriously dont have any idea whats going on . Trading on betfair is a tough job . Takes time to figure out how best to execute your plans anyway . If you can make it happen , great work and carry on . I don't see why a bank should give you that kind of stick . I'll probably stuck some money up their **** or change to smaller denomination money and bury them with it . FFS , the banks needs to wake up their idea .

She has probably seen other punters in severe trouble and was maybe trying to warn you to be careful, in a way she was looking out for you but she has indeed over stepped the mark.

By the way do you play on soccer horses or what?

she wasnt warning me about gambling, she was telling me that it was against bank rules, which, it isnt. She was not friendly, quite rude in fact, and even when I tried to explain how it was statistical trading not gambling, she wouldnt let me get a word in.

Yes, I bet on most sports - but I have systems on tennis and football.

I note with interest that my entirely constructive list of suggestions has disappeared from this thread.

I wonder if it was the nationality or the shirtlessness that caught the eye of the gestapo.

I'm off to bed to watch a re-run of Fantasy Island !!

Sorry I will clarify.  I think this is what Srich was saying that avi nailed.

Still, he made few comments about gambling, fees from credit cards and **** like that. Bloke really looked decent and it was rather something what he was supposed to say then he wanted to, nevertheless I was shocked. I've got more savings then most of blokes at my work, never had any loan, debt or any **** like it. I've got savings, decent income, but because of BETFAIR I suddenly became a ****ing disgrace.  Later, had similar story with other cashier (woman). It is not right, as nobody is making any comments about my friends indecent behaviour, drinking and bankruptcies. Crazy world.

If I go out on a Friday night, buy some pints with my mates, then go on to a club, does the bank call me and say 'how often do you do this, I dont think it is wise to drink like that, you could become an alcoholic, you must stop or we will cancel your card', I would be offended, just as I am offended that they criticise people for gambling.

If you were offended by it, just keep calm, ask to speak to the manager and then suggest to him that in light of the way a member of his staff talked to you, you are considering closing your account with them. Say that you expect him to tell his staff to keep their opinions to themselves and that you would like an apology.

of course there's a difference from a bank's point of view.  how many people have you heard of that have managed to spend £100ks on beer in a few months?

gamblers havent either, sugarfoot, unless they were rich to start with - no bank would lend them that amount otherwise.

They dont care about your wellbeing its just your ability to repay debts. If you are living within an line of credit such as an overdraft and the account shows dozens and dozens of gambling transactions then of course the account will be flagged up.

You have no regular income (no job), your account has lots of gambling transactions, you are in a out of an overdraft. The lender would be mad not to speak to you about this.

they are not a lender, though, at the moment.

s or a? seems to be suffering from greece syndrome. the belief that other people have an obligation to lend him money but that he retains the right to be offended if they express an opinion on what he should and shouldn't do with it.

as above

Did they criticise you though?

Saying it's against their rules is different. Saying that gambling with debt can be a problem isn't criticising you directly, it's a warning and also is a true statement.

Why not just clear your overdraft with your savings and save the money you spend on fees and interest? You'll also find your bank would then not give two hoots about your gambling habit.

The hard truth I suspect is that you're not a winning gambler, I would guess you're a guy who got lucky a few times and you've got into your head that "gambling is easy" and "you're good enough to be pro" and that "you're bound to win soon".  This is part of why bookmakers always win. If people lose all their money then the bookies have them. If people win money they get into their head that they can repeat that more often and eventually lose it all back.

She's a woman - all women are wary of gamblers ,they don't really understand odds and stuff

there is nothing to clear, now, it was a temporary problem caused by an account fee

"at the moment" isn't the point. tell them you're happy to give up your overdraft facility and you will have a point.

maybe, coachbuster, because the man I spoke to after that call agreed that she was wrong.

If you're overdrawn then they ARE lending you money.

gamblers havent either, sugarfoot, unless they were rich to start with - no bank would lend them that amount otherwise.


---------------------------

suggest you google "stole to fund gambling" or similar.  there are plenty of hits

She had a point,she was out of order saying so in the bank but get over it and move on. You know if it works for you so stop letting it fester within you cos it only puts your judgement off skew.

Also I know of stories of plenty of gamblers who've managed to rack up 40-60k debt through gambling. Every case is sad and a tragedy but it's far from uncommon.

yeah treetop, I know what youre saying, although Im talking about a phone call now, not that previous incident.

They could manage that only if they are working though ror. Even if I wanted to, I would not be able to do that via the bank.

Maybe, or if they have a house to mortgage, or an inheritance to blow, etc.

Either way, the bank was right to raise a flag. If you were confident of your position you should have just confidently dismissed it. But it's annoyed you, and got under your skin.

Deal with it.

But maybe it's annoying you because you don't really have a good riposte.

Is your 3 month P&L above 1k profit? Is it above £1k loss?

"Professional gamblers" can have lean weeks, they can even have lean months but if you're having a lean quarter then give up and get a real job.

Funny that this thread came up today...

I was asked by my bank to "seek alternative banking arrangements" after having a similar discussion, i.e. after being asked about transactions to and from Betfair (and not huge ones, either, just a few hundred here and there). No, I don't have nor have I asked for an overdraft, or a loan, or anything of the sort - so the bank is not a lender to me.

I think it's absolutely disgraceful. Since when are the banks - THE BANKS!!! - our moral arbiters? Who died and nominated them to that position? Are they refusing "banking facilities" to arms traffickers? Drug barons? Madams who make their living out of prostitution - or to put it another way, owners of "escort agencies"? I bet they don't, if there is enough cash sloshing about in their account.

Is it a different bank?

Just get an account without an overdraft and you'll be spared all the "outrageous moralisation".

Or does a successful gambler need to borrow from the bank?

Lloyds.

Ror, do try to read the full post and take time to absorb it.

I specifically said within it that I DO NOT have an overdraft facility, a loan or a credit card, nor have I ever asked for one, therefore the bank is not a lender to me.

Clear enough?

*(I hate sanctimonious people)*

Was it unsolicited or part of a sit down checkup? They do this to everyone, they basically are desperate to lend to people but flags on your account means they can't sell your product. (They won't lend to someone regularly depositing to betfair.)

They want commission therefore they want you to stop gambling so they can lend to you.

In a similar meeting an advisor suggested to me that I 'get a pay rise' so I'd be in range of buying a house. It's not meant to be offensive it's just selling.

Sorry I misread the (non-double) negative in your post and thought you did have an OD facility blackat.

And I'm not sanctimonious, I have no problem with gambling, I just don't have a problem with what the bank said to the OP. I don't think I'm alone in that.

I also found myself concerned with some of the views that SofA held (such as "no one gambles for fun") which flagged in my mind that he might be getting himself in trouble.

He then decided to go on the defensive (while at the same time dodging any of the questions asked of him) which led us here...

I answered angrily to you, Ror, and I apologise for that.

It was totally unsolicited. Basically, I tried to transfer some money - which I did have - to Betfair. That transfer was blocked. I called the bank to ask what was happening, I was transferred to the security division. After I assured them I initiated the transfer, it was unblocked. So far, so good.

The next day, I found my debit card blocked. When I called to ask them why, I was subjected to this interrogation about my transfers to and from Betfair and Moneybookers. I was then asked to make alternative banking arrangements and given 60 days to do so.

Surely it is simple for the bank to add the sum total of deposits against the sum total of withdrawls to determine if S&A has a problem rather than generalising that all gamblers/traders have a problem. Banks don't complain about the fees they collect on his account so what business is it of theirs as to what he does with his money. If they don't like it then close his account rather than spouting moral judgements. As stated earlier banks are gamblers/traders themselves.

"Surely it is simple for the bank to add the sum total of deposits against the sum total of withdrawls to determine if S&A has a problem"

Sleepless: They may have done just that, we only have his word that he's profitable and he admitted himself that his big win was 2 years ago. They may just be doing it over a rolling 2 year or 18 month period or with a moving average filter applied.

As an example, if I saw someone win 100k 2 years ago and lose 80k in 2 years since, I'd think they had a problem even though they were still 20k in profit, and I'd be wary of lending to them.

To trade shares of societies having a real economic activity and to trade bets on people in shorts running after a ball are two totally different things! Some people are really deluded on what they are doing here

Abolo how did your banks do in the GFC

What about trading in futures, abolo? You still think it's that much different from trading on Betfair?

If you do, I have a prediction on what the interest rates / copper prices / cocoa prices are likely to be in 5 years time. I can assure you it will be far less an educated guess than betting on over / under 2.5 goals in a football match happening in a few hours.

blackat: I do find that concerning then, and I think lloyds are generally more 'nosey' about customers habits than other banks from what I've read at moneysavingexpert forums.

But there's no excuse for rudeness from the bank, they ought to be profession and handle things more sensitively.

Unfortunately there are so many problem gamblers out there that I guess they have to act like this or they'll get their fingers burned on the problem cases.

Take a look at these figures from gamcare:

		2010/11			2009/10
Amount of debt disclosed	Total	HelpLine	NetLine	Total	HelpLine	NetLine
n=	599	570	29	1611	835	776
Under 6K	36%	38%	21%	39%	38%	39%
6K-10K	17%	14%	69%	16%	15%	17%
11K-20K	19%	20%	0%	19%	19%	18%
21K-50K	18%	19%	3%	16%	16%	16%
51K- 100K	4%	4%	0%	5%	5%	4%
100K and over	4%	4%	0%	3%	4%	2%
Bankruptcy	2%	1%	7%	2%	2%	2%
Individual Voluntary Arrangement	0%	0%	0%	1%	0%	1%

That's just those individuals who've got into debt, and got help from gamcare, and agreed to share the amount with gamcare.

Just to be clear, my 'concern' in my last post was concern about lloyd's behaviour.

She will have been sneakingly trying to find out if you were washing cash drug dealing tax evading all that kind of sh it.  I actually complained to my manager about the sly comments at sa tander sand got an apology when I showed a bank statement from barclays showing my work pay going in every month.
I used to go in sometimes with 1 k in cash as I used Santander for betting and stacking a bit of cash when I need cars holidays or something. I felt like a fuc king criminal

I'm not a specialist in economy, all what i know is that banks and stock exchanges was created to help economic activity, societies producing things useful to human life. They can do mistake, bet on the wrong societies, but they act in a useful domain. You can't compare it with sports, which are a meaningless amusement.

The fact is that banks should not lend money to any risky prospect but they also should not judge people on assumptions or generalisations, particularly when they have all the facts in front of them. You make valid points Ror but are you not also making too many assumptions about S&A.

Abolo how much money do you suppose that this meaningless amusement called sports injects into the economy.

Ror...you said "They won't lend to someone regularly depositing to Betfair". That's just not true in my experience. For many years I've made deposits and withdrawals to/from Betfair through a current account. During all that time I've had an authorised overdraft, which I never requested and which I sometimes use and sometimes don't. The bank have increased that overdraft from time to time, without me ever asking them to, and they've never once mentioned Betfair to me in person, on the phone or by letter.

Just to add they've also offered me loans/mortgages without me ever asking for one or availing myself of their offers.

sleepless, a trader on Betfair contributes for nothing to the big show that are professional sports. He just found a trick to get money. I don't have any problem with that, but there is nothing there to stand for or to be proud of. You are very good to guess which matches will finish with more than 2 goals? Fine, but in what is it useful to human kind, i can't see

dizzy:

How regular is regular, are you depositing several times a week most weeks?
Do you have another job that dwarfs the amounts you transfer in and out of betfair?

Why are you even on Betfair Abolo. You are contributing nothing to the "Big Show". Money made and lost on Betfair is recycled back into the economy just like any other.

Dizzy is correct

Banks won't lend (i.e. credit cards, loans, mortgages) to you if you don't have a guaranteed source of income, i.e. salary. I work for a bank and I have had to shift my betfair transactions to a bank account external of the bank I work for to avoid arousing suspicion of my betfair activities.  Banks just don't tend to like gambling transactions on accounts as a general rule.

Ror..."Do you have another job that dwarfs the amounts you transfer in and out of betfair?"

Yes I have a job and the income comfortably exceeds the Betfair amounts.

"How regular is regular, are you depositing several times a week most weeks?"

No, not anything like most weeks. At a very rough average over the years perhaps I make about 2 transactions a month, sometimes deposits sometimes withdrawals, depending on how I'm getting on.

That's all fair enough Ror, the only bit I disagreed with was the "won't lend to someone regularly depositing to Betfair" statement.

Yes they won't lend without a 'proper' regular income, but it does not have to be great, and credit score far more important than wether or not you have gambling transactions

true, but 'irregular' transactions such as betfair etc can put banks off lending, or can hike up the apr in some instances as the customer may be perceived to be a higher risk. But yes, credit scoring does outweigh this.

Tobemory is on the money as usual I'd say.

Dizzy: I agree with what you say, although in my defence I meant "regular" as more than once a week, which I suspect SofA was doing for weeks on end.

sleepless, i'm here to try to make money, like everybody i guess, but i don't sing it in the streets. I hide it the most i can.

The banks role is no different to that of anyone else. Maximise profits while minimising risk. When it comes to so called gamblers they generalise that they are all a bad risk(and that may be the case) but for the sake of their shareholders should they not be assessing on a case by case basis. I am sure they would have little problem dealing with bookmakers who are also gamblers.

Where am I singing in the streets Abolo. I would never encourage anyone to get into this game but it is not my right to sit in judgement either.

My bank wouldn't loan me without a right fuss because of betfair transactions
I had about 40 k in San tander for a long while and like I said my earnings were paid into barclays.
I used  my card to buy a  car and cleaned almost all out   I went in the next day to ask if they would loan me a grand till the end of the months    They refused. Because all my transactions inward were cash or bet fair   They only relented when I showed my barclays statement showing my earnings

I agree i hated the way my statements looked when i was regulary using about 13 bookies accounts, only 3 of which were deposit ones which kept thee money (so for the others i had to deposit for every bet and they put the winnings in at midnight))

Made me look like a demented gambler .Went from having (when i just used betting shops) bank statements that were half a page long to having something come through the letterbox that was the width of a small novel

With Betfair should be easy (if you are doing ok) to just make a withdrawal once or month and no deposits at all.

OK so we agree, sleepless. I don't criticize Srichaphan, maybe the bank didn't show him enough respect, i was not there to judge, but he can't be surprised when a bank see sports betting in a suspicious manner

Fair enough Abolo. I have no problem with a bank refusing to loan money to a gambler but from what was said they did allow S&A an overdraft. The problem I have is that on this occasion this chick offered moral judgement on something she knows fck all about. I wonder if she smokes and drinks with her wages. I also think there is a big difference between sports betting and throwing coins into a slot or betting on the roll of a dice/flip of a card.

Coachbuster
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She's a woman - all women are wary of gamblers ,they don't really understand odds and stuff

Tut tut coach, so sexist!

Woman in Bank ...that's two things that get my goat right there

Ror, you may find it interesting to know that from summer '06 to April '09 I was a net depositor on Betfair. I was making consistent profits, and shifting my resources from where they were yielding little, to where I expected to be able to use them to make more (getting rid of traditional investments etc. to use the money to bet with).

It wasn't until November 2010 that I withdrew more than I deposited. Many people find this strange, and it doesn't seem to be a typical pattern for winners on here to be net depositors for such a long time despite winning consistently.

Earn enough money to get a private banking account with your own personal account manager, then....no worries

And by the way, the OP's post made me laugh, nice story.

None of my family and only a very few of my non-gambling friends know what I make. My girlfriend knows.

It's quite funny, because my dad for instance is often trying to convince me to get a proper job. If I was going to do anything else, it would likely be in business, where I'd be in with a chance of achieving something within a few years, rather than building a career over decades.

Anyway the moral is: There's no point getting upset with people when they don't understand what's going on, and don't want to understand. Maybe someone close to them has a serious gambling problem or something.

McChicken_Sandwich
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Earn enough money to get a private banking account with your own personal account manager, then....no worries Plain


Do you have that? You have to pay for this though right? I always thought this was just a status thing and didn't have any real value?

Have recently been offered it, and have a meeting set up in a few weeks, they are also suggesting I might like to look at some of their investment products, I suppose commission will be heavy on those.

Thanks for your POV investor.

My story,about to split with my partner house valued at 225k no mortgage.My equity in the property is 70k which i intend putting down as  as part deposit on a property for myself,in total will deposit 90k so require a poxy 50k over 15 years to purchase a two bedroomed 140k property.

Have been full time on here for 8 years,been with our Lloyds friends for 30 years,have never needed to use my overdraft have the best credit rating you can get and in the region of 160k has gone from here and purple into my current account,thats clear taking any initial deposits into consideration.

I now also have a part time early morning cash office position with Asda earning around 7k a year between 6am and 11am which does not effect my time on here.

I approach Lloyds stating the need to borrow 50k and of course by putting down 90k where is the risk to them?Anyhow there is more chance of them employing Nick Leeson than them agreeing to a mortgage.They would rather accept an individual who is on agency work which i consider a greater risk,and to fuel my anger will not even  consider a mortgage on my Asda earnings as i wont earn enough to repay the monthly payments.

So much for customer loyalty but as they all p..s in the same pot,renting now seems to be my only option.

"where is the risk to them?"...

you get sick and can't gamble/work (depending on what insurance you have that risk might be somewhat mitigated), house prices fall 35% or more with a very stagnant market making it difficult to sell except at very much a "distressed" price. That's the risk to them I'd have thought. That scenario is a low risk but it does happen.

Norton, banks these days don't lend, period. Not to small businesses, not for mortgages... hardly to anyone.

I'm on the committee of a charity relatively rich in assets, but cash poor. We have a few property, total value about 1 Mil. We need to refurbish a couple of flats, at a generous estimate of 40K. Can we get a secured loan for that? Can we heck.

I suggest in these economic times many people do not have any income /sickness protection and have a mortgage,why would the way i make a living be more of a risk to the bank if this scenario occured?Someone in a manual labour position whose back has gone and does not receive sick pay is more of a risk, i can sit at a computer unless my arris is on fire!

If there is a 35% crash we are all fecked,wont happen.

The chance of a 35% fall in property prices are slim to none

Re "I suggest in these economic times many people do not have any income /sickness protection and have a mortgage,why would the way i make a living be more of a risk to the bank if this scenario occured?Someone in a manual labour position whose back has gone and does not receive sick pay is more of a risk, i can sit at a computer unless my arris is on fire!"

...that's fair enough Nortons, which is why I didn't say you'd be more of a risk than anyone else. I just pointed out the risk to the bank that you'd represent.


Re property prices...Many properties lost more than 35% of their value during the fall from the 2007 peak in this country. In the late 80s/early 90s when I lived in Tokyo it was common for people there to parrot the "can't go wrong with property mantra" as the bubble era profits piled up and money fell off the trees. Now, over 20 years after the peak was reached, property prices there still haven't reached the prices that were being paid then. Of course that probably won't happen here but any lender ruling out the possibility of a 35% fall would be a fool.

Location location location. If the property is in an ok area there is no chance at all of it dropping 35%.

I have just sold one of my properties in Surrey. I got full asking price and was sold in less than 2 weeks. I actually live in Dorset and a property close to me just sold in less than a week,again for full asking price

History has shown us, as clear as a bell, that "no chance at all of a property dropping 35%" is just plain foolhardy. I'd accept "very unlikely to fall by 35%" though.

NO chance in my "Spa " town, even though the brine baths have been closed!

Hmm..."no chance" reminds me of when Greece won the Euros after I'd laid them at 150-1 because I thought they had "no chance". More fool me. Every fall in asset prices is preceded by people saying a fall of such and such magnitude "can't happen". And then, sometimes, it happens. I saw it first hand in Tokyo, people paying absurd amounts of money for rabbit hutch size apartments in desirable locations in the city because "there is no top", and then woosh, down came the house of cards. All I'm saying is that just as the 100-1 shot horse doesn't have "no chance", he has a chance, it's just a question of quantifying it and looking at risk/reward, the same applies to other forms of investment, including property.

David i understand your reasoning but i find it impossible to understand the rigidity of the banks instead of considering each case on its merits.Its similar to the scenario of if your a financial advisor thats acceptable,state you earn a living through gambling on sport and people are disbelieving or consider you as social vermin.

Nortons I agree with you on that and if I was in your situation I'm sure I'd have the right hump being refused a mortgage given your own personal situation. Blackcat's post just up the page is pretty shocking too. Maybe Ror or one of the other guys who works in a bank can give us more insight into how loan applications are dealt with.