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never to be outdone by KP, Flintoff seems to have taken his turn at having a pop at a sky commentator who upset him.
"Flintoff's rage was sparked by Atherton's criticism of several current England players, with Atherton's analysis clearly infuriating the mercurial all-rounder.
"He’s a p***k. He’s a f****** p****," Flintoff told the London Evening Standard. "He sits there making judgments about players that are much better than he ever was, believe me, he’s a p****.
"How can he talk about a player like Alastair Cook, who is 10 times the player he ever was? He has a much bigger average and will go on and on. Atherton averaged in the 30s for England and yet he thinks he can judge others."
The tirade is the latest in a long line of tension between Flintoff and Atherton, who is a Sky pundit and a cricket columnist for the Daily Telegraph, with former England skipper Atherton once scathing about Flintoff's hopes of captaining his country.
And the 34-year-old Flintoff had no qualms about revealing his feelings on Atherton to the Standard's reporter: "I don’t care. Say what you like. There’s no love lost there," he said."
i am left wondering when these comments were made and in what context. perhaps late in the afternoon at the oval match? i do hope the booze was slightly to blame because he's not done himself any favours. in fact worse than that: he looks like a borish bitter fool.
firstly knight is a shocking commentator, atherton is, imo, a very capable one and a good written journalist to boot.
secondly atherton's success as a player has no bearing on his right to commentate and criticise others: mandatory reticence because the target of the criticism is a more successful player than the critic is not a rule of commentary.
thirdly fred would do well to remember cook's performance against pakistan in the summer of 2010: that's the sort of bowling atherton had to face every test match he played in for most of his career.
"Flintoff's rage was sparked by Atherton's criticism of several current England players, with Atherton's analysis clearly infuriating the mercurial all-rounder.
"He’s a p***k. He’s a f****** p****," Flintoff told the London Evening Standard. "He sits there making judgments about players that are much better than he ever was, believe me, he’s a p****.
"How can he talk about a player like Alastair Cook, who is 10 times the player he ever was? He has a much bigger average and will go on and on. Atherton averaged in the 30s for England and yet he thinks he can judge others."
The tirade is the latest in a long line of tension between Flintoff and Atherton, who is a Sky pundit and a cricket columnist for the Daily Telegraph, with former England skipper Atherton once scathing about Flintoff's hopes of captaining his country.
And the 34-year-old Flintoff had no qualms about revealing his feelings on Atherton to the Standard's reporter: "I don’t care. Say what you like. There’s no love lost there," he said."
i am left wondering when these comments were made and in what context. perhaps late in the afternoon at the oval match? i do hope the booze was slightly to blame because he's not done himself any favours. in fact worse than that: he looks like a borish bitter fool.
firstly knight is a shocking commentator, atherton is, imo, a very capable one and a good written journalist to boot.
secondly atherton's success as a player has no bearing on his right to commentate and criticise others: mandatory reticence because the target of the criticism is a more successful player than the critic is not a rule of commentary.
thirdly fred would do well to remember cook's performance against pakistan in the summer of 2010: that's the sort of bowling atherton had to face every test match he played in for most of his career.
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Speaking to the London Evening Standard at a Sky TV party at London's Oxo Tower on Tuesday night
i don't imagine it was a dry evening.
i don't imagine it was a dry evening.
Totally agree DStyle Flintoff was a legend for England but he has let himself down here. Atherton captained a poor England side and always gave his all for the team - he is entitled to express his opinions as a commentator and writer. Flintoff obviously on the pop.
The reality of Flintoff is completely different from the happy-go-lucky, 'people's hero' public image.
He is a calculating, manipulative individual with bullying tendencies. It is astonishing how many in cricket dislike him - including most of the current England team. He has his coterie of admirers - Harmison, Udal, Key etc - but many people regard him with deep suspicion.
He is a calculating, manipulative individual with bullying tendencies. It is astonishing how many in cricket dislike him - including most of the current England team. He has his coterie of admirers - Harmison, Udal, Key etc - but many people regard him with deep suspicion.
Freddie, sadly, is out of order and probably regrets his comments now he's sobered up. Athers is a first class commentator and journalist as well as a batsmen who came up against top class bowlers that don't exist these days (Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, McGrath, Warne, Murali, Wasim, Waqar). Tough runs.
fwiw, atherton averaged 49.39 when you exclude his innings against McGrath, Walsh, Ambrose, Donald, Warne, Pollock, Waqar and Wasim who collectively did for atherton 90 times out of his 205 concluded innings
sad to see really. feels like he's deliberately keeping up his media profile purely to get the budget supermarket ads. anyone who watched him in his pomp has to feel disappointed at that.
Who were Athertons contemporaries as openers of all Test match playing nations parallel to his career who were facing the same Mustard bowlers as Athers? how do their averages compare?
Taylor and slater avg 43 and 42 for oz and of course didnt have to face warne and mcgrath
Flintoff...
Test batting average 31.77
Test bowling average 32.78
Some awesome bowling spells will live long in the memory, along with a few large whacks with the bat.
Atherton...
Test batting average 37.69
Some of his knocks will certainly live long in the memory.
imo Atherton is one of the shrewdest pundits around.
There's nothing in the above stats to say that either man's opinion is more worthy.
And why should stats determine who's allowed to comment?
John Arlott's stats please?
Test batting average 31.77
Test bowling average 32.78
Some awesome bowling spells will live long in the memory, along with a few large whacks with the bat.
Atherton...
Test batting average 37.69
Some of his knocks will certainly live long in the memory.
imo Atherton is one of the shrewdest pundits around.
There's nothing in the above stats to say that either man's opinion is more worthy.
And why should stats determine who's allowed to comment?
John Arlott's stats please?
Regards athertons contemporaries.... I give you Alec Stewart, average about forty. Freddie clearly on the sauce when he made this statement.
Atherton opened the batting in an era when bowlers seemed to be a lot better imo
McGrath
Donald
Ambrose
Walsh
Akram
Younis
Warne
his average is worth more now
I think this goes back to the old Lancashire days from memory when Flintoff was just starting out
McGrath
Donald
Ambrose
Walsh
Akram
Younis
Warne
his average is worth more now
I think this goes back to the old Lancashire days from memory when Flintoff was just starting out
What is Atherton supposed to do - check the average of a batsman and if it is higher than his own refrain from making any comments about the player ? He is just doing his job. A lot of this is about comments Atherton made about Flintoffs suitability, rather lack of, for the England captaincy.
yep bonkers
is flintoff saying that the general cricket public, many of which hold him up as great peoples champ have no right at all to express a view too
is flintoff saying that the general cricket public, many of which hold him up as great peoples champ have no right at all to express a view too
Flintoff is a ****. Athers is an erudite pundit who was as a cricketer easily Flintoff's equal. He also played against tougher attacks. Anyone who has seen Flintoff making a fool of himself on TV most notably on 'league of their own' will know he's nothing but an attention seeking prat.
Flintoff in terms of numbers was mediocre, his rep is basically based on 2005 and that's it.
Athers, Stewart, Tresco, Thorpe and KP all much better test match players than him.
He's a d**k.
Flintoff in terms of numbers was mediocre, his rep is basically based on 2005 and that's it.
Athers, Stewart, Tresco, Thorpe and KP all much better test match players than him.
He's a d**k.
one thing is for sure
it will be an expensive night on the p1ss for freddie
this tirade will lose him a lot of fans
it will be an expensive night on the p1ss for freddie
this tirade will lose him a lot of fans
ahem, 
, i think i made that point in my opening post.
anyhoo. either flintoff is monumentally stoopid or it is, as daphne says, more about the lancashire days.
the 2006 article atherton wrote was hardly a scathing criticism of flintoff's captaincy abilities.
atherton seemed to suggest his concerns about his suitability were more about his game being compromised, comparing him to botham, along with concerns about his friendliness when he felt more steel was needed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/2338220/Strauss-must-give-England-a-new-focus.html
, i think i made that point in my opening post.anyhoo. either flintoff is monumentally stoopid or it is, as daphne says, more about the lancashire days.
the 2006 article atherton wrote was hardly a scathing criticism of flintoff's captaincy abilities.
atherton seemed to suggest his concerns about his suitability were more about his game being compromised, comparing him to botham, along with concerns about his friendliness when he felt more steel was needed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/2338220/Strauss-must-give-England-a-new-focus.html
To be fair dirkdiggler Flintoff was brilliant 2003 -2005.
This has been bubbling under for years due to Athers daring to question the marketing success of "Freddie" by looking at the facts rather than the hype/PR.
The transformation of Andrew Flintoff the junior chess champion to "Freddie" the tabloid and lads' mags hero has been impressive piece of work by agents/advisors
No doubt they'll be pleased to see him further apeing (sic) "Beefy" Botham by resorting to the "How many wickets have you taken for England then ?" argument to someone's opinion they don't like
The transformation of Andrew Flintoff the junior chess champion to "Freddie" the tabloid and lads' mags hero has been impressive piece of work by agents/advisors
No doubt they'll be pleased to see him further apeing (sic) "Beefy" Botham by resorting to the "How many wickets have you taken for England then ?" argument to someone's opinion they don't like
The comments are nonsense, athers is one of the best if not the best cricket commenator on tv anywhere in teh world right now, he's also a pretty good cricket writer to boot.
The debate although brought up by flintoff has nothing to do with whther Athers is better or worse than cook or freddy. Is he a fair and intelligent commentator on the game who voices an honest and interesting opnion. The answer to all those questions is yes.
if we are going to get into who is better than who, and i honestly believe that should have nothing to do a commenator or journo's right to make judgements on players, the Cook will probably turn out to be Englands lead run scorer of all time, flintoff at his peak was an outstanding cricketer, a collosus who when at his best was not matched by anyone else on the field. as posted on another thread freddie had more exceptional series than any other allrounder in test cricket apart from Botham, Sobers.
Other Allrounders of course have better numbers, more runs more wickets more 5fers better averges. But if you analyse the numbers at his best fred had more series influnecing series than most.
That doesn't mean that he is in anyway correct about athers or that he is justified in saying what he said. But I hate it when people make him out to be some kind of half decent cricketer. When we all know at his best he a was an exceptional one.
The debate although brought up by flintoff has nothing to do with whther Athers is better or worse than cook or freddy. Is he a fair and intelligent commentator on the game who voices an honest and interesting opnion. The answer to all those questions is yes.
if we are going to get into who is better than who, and i honestly believe that should have nothing to do a commenator or journo's right to make judgements on players, the Cook will probably turn out to be Englands lead run scorer of all time, flintoff at his peak was an outstanding cricketer, a collosus who when at his best was not matched by anyone else on the field. as posted on another thread freddie had more exceptional series than any other allrounder in test cricket apart from Botham, Sobers.
Other Allrounders of course have better numbers, more runs more wickets more 5fers better averges. But if you analyse the numbers at his best fred had more series influnecing series than most.
That doesn't mean that he is in anyway correct about athers or that he is justified in saying what he said. But I hate it when people make him out to be some kind of half decent cricketer. When we all know at his best he a was an exceptional one.
And athers was a pretty good opening bat who held the batting order together through a dark period in english cricket, cook and freddy however are far superior player imo, if not far superior people, especially in the case of freddy who obviously is a bit of a prick.
http://blogs.espncricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/test_cricket/
this is a good analysis of allrounders in test cricket.
this is a good analysis of allrounders in test cricket.
Cook is aided by the fact that England have the majority of the best bowlers in the world imo
to say he is a far superior player is questionable
Freddie had moments of brilliance and had the talent to be one of the best.
Unfortunately his brain and body meant he got nowhere near imo
to say he is a far superior player is questionable
Freddie had moments of brilliance and had the talent to be one of the best.
Unfortunately his brain and body meant he got nowhere near imo
Athers has become a far better bat since his retirement, don't get me wrong he was a pretty decent player who faced some very good bowlers in his time, but he's still not in the same class as cook who's best is still to come imo.
Freddy like i posted earlier was an impact player, longevity is given such prominence when it comes to judging cricketers that we quite often miss players who dominate with exceptional performances for shorter periods, in his pomp fred was exceptional player. It is indeed a sad thing that he didn't play enough of his cricket at that peak level or for a longer period, but that doesn't take away from the fact that when he did play it he was one of the best.
Freddy like i posted earlier was an impact player, longevity is given such prominence when it comes to judging cricketers that we quite often miss players who dominate with exceptional performances for shorter periods, in his pomp fred was exceptional player. It is indeed a sad thing that he didn't play enough of his cricket at that peak level or for a longer period, but that doesn't take away from the fact that when he did play it he was one of the best.
Flintoff is simply an attention seeking boor who can't hold his booze
Flintoff is simply an attention seeking boor who can't hold his booze
I'd rate Athers higher than Cook. The standard of opposition bowling he had to face was on a different level to who England face the days. Against what we see today, Athers would bat for days.
How would Cook have fared against the same bowlers? Not sure but his 'jumpy', awkward defensive shots would make him very vulnerable.
It's weird for someone regarded as an accumulator rather than a dasher, that his defensive shots often don't appear to come easy to him. He is of course improving all the time, which has been his great strength.
How would Cook have fared against the same bowlers? Not sure but his 'jumpy', awkward defensive shots would make him very vulnerable.
It's weird for someone regarded as an accumulator rather than a dasher, that his defensive shots often don't appear to come easy to him. He is of course improving all the time, which has been his great strength.
Atherton a far inferior pedalo captain than Freddie imho .....
Mike Atherton is the Sachin Tendulkar of the Pennines imo. Two clowns both caught on camera blatantly tampering with the ball in Test matches, both subsequently fined and both pathetically denying their guilt to this day.
Flinto££ just reconfirming his status as a drunken clown, & a massively overrated one at that. As for Cook being far better than Athers, as has already been pointed out the one recent occasion, against Pakistan in 2010, when he faced bowlers of similar standard to what Athers faced for the bulk of his career he almost managed to get himself dropped.
Good article:
.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/569522.html
.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/569522.html
Those rose tinted glasses still working hey rock.
The fact that cook can't stick his front leg down the pitch with bat and pad together and let the ball just hit one of them cos there's no chance the umpire will give it out, be it against spin or pace, means he's had to become a better batsman than ather ever was. The changes in umpires decision making has forced a lot of players to become better batsman.
Obviously he struggled against amir but so did most that summer he was outstanding, though i'll take his runs away in aus thanks very much.
The fact that cook can't stick his front leg down the pitch with bat and pad together and let the ball just hit one of them cos there's no chance the umpire will give it out, be it against spin or pace, means he's had to become a better batsman than ather ever was. The changes in umpires decision making has forced a lot of players to become better batsman.
Obviously he struggled against amir but so did most that summer he was outstanding, though i'll take his runs away in aus thanks very much.
I'd also forgotten how easy it was to neutralise Curtly by thrusting the front foot down the pitch!
Athers averages against the top bowlers of his day
v Mcgrath 9.89
v Walsh 22.64
v Ambrose 25.76
v Donald 30.63
v Warne 32.20
v Pollock 20.50
v Waqar 26.00
v Akram 25.00
He did however average over 100 against
prasad, priest, Mbangwa, Hirwana, Abdul Razzaq, Nathan Astle, Matthews and Larsen
So athers faced good bowlers and didn't succeed against them, and when he faced sh*t bowlers he did, therefore he just cos he did face fast bowlers (despite the fact he didn't do any good against them) he's a better player.
v Mcgrath 9.89
v Walsh 22.64
v Ambrose 25.76
v Donald 30.63
v Warne 32.20
v Pollock 20.50
v Waqar 26.00
v Akram 25.00
He did however average over 100 against
prasad, priest, Mbangwa, Hirwana, Abdul Razzaq, Nathan Astle, Matthews and Larsen
So athers faced good bowlers and didn't succeed against them, and when he faced sh*t bowlers he did, therefore he just cos he did face fast bowlers (despite the fact he didn't do any good against them) he's a better player.
Has the medication not kicked in at this early hour? Those figures go towards defeating your own argument as they explain completely why Atherton's average was not considerably higher, ie it was dragged down by having to face such quality bowling on a consistent basis.
Conversely Cook's will be higher through having to face a load of relative junk, including the 'tremendous' Aussie attack of the last Ashes.
Conversely Cook's will be higher through having to face a load of relative junk, including the 'tremendous' Aussie attack of the last Ashes.
so cook scores runs against a bowling attack and they are junk, Sut if he fails against someone (amir for example) then he is rubbish.
All those figures prove is that when athers faced decent bowling he did no good against it, so yes he faced decent bowling but his record was terrible against that bowling, that doesn't prove anything it just proves he couldn't cope with the best bowlers around in his day.
Lets look at some of cooks averages against the bowlers he's faced in his career.
V amir 7.33
v Murali 14.00
v Morkel 47.16
v johnson 40.75
v Z Khan 25.50
v Mcgrath 47.33
v Ajmal 71.50
v Warne 43.00
I would put Steyn in there but he's never dismissed him despite being the best opener bowler in the world right now and arguably as good as all the names listed in athers bowlers list bellwo despite teh fact they've played 5 test matches against each otehr, where cook opens the batting and steyn the bowling.
I'll take young Alistair thanks very much.
By the way, i'm not saying athers wasn't amighty fine player, it's just cooks better that he was.
All those figures prove is that when athers faced decent bowling he did no good against it, so yes he faced decent bowling but his record was terrible against that bowling, that doesn't prove anything it just proves he couldn't cope with the best bowlers around in his day.
Lets look at some of cooks averages against the bowlers he's faced in his career.
V amir 7.33
v Murali 14.00
v Morkel 47.16
v johnson 40.75
v Z Khan 25.50
v Mcgrath 47.33
v Ajmal 71.50
v Warne 43.00
I would put Steyn in there but he's never dismissed him despite being the best opener bowler in the world right now and arguably as good as all the names listed in athers bowlers list bellwo despite teh fact they've played 5 test matches against each otehr, where cook opens the batting and steyn the bowling.
I'll take young Alistair thanks very much.
By the way, i'm not saying athers wasn't amighty fine player, it's just cooks better that he was.
To be fair to Athers, a surprisingly large number of his dismissals by McGrath would have been overturned on DRS! ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFXSTi56Bek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFXSTi56Bek
Could also point out that Athers suffered from a debilitating back condition which increasingly restricted him as his career progressed.
The interesting question is "who was the better bowler?" ;)
The interesting question is "who was the better bowler?" ;)
those cook figures are a bit disingenuous dougydougy, as you have to look at how many balls cook has actually faced against those bowlers and also at what point of those great bowlers' careers.
i also think there are an absolute raft of additional, and probably synergistic factors relating to the set up of the team, the management and most importantly the strength of the side and the unrelenting strength of the opposition atherton had to face, that make cook's life a great deal easier than atherton's ever was.
that said, i'm in little doubt that unless he is unlucky enough have his career curtailed by injury, cook will retire as england's leading run scorer in tests by a significant margin, and with it have earned the right to be considered as one of england's greatest ever test batsman.
but atherton will always have a special place in my memories. handed the captaincy at a young age, completely unsupported by those senior to him, managing a very ordinary and often unhappy side, facing some very strong fast bowling attack and playing through the end of his career in significant pain. there's a grit there that should make everyone want to treasure his career as a paragon of tenacity and stoicism. being called the cockroach by steve waugh is about as close to admiration as i reckon you'll ever get from him for a English cricketer, which is very high praise indeed.
and he was also a joy to watch when he was set.
i also think there are an absolute raft of additional, and probably synergistic factors relating to the set up of the team, the management and most importantly the strength of the side and the unrelenting strength of the opposition atherton had to face, that make cook's life a great deal easier than atherton's ever was.
that said, i'm in little doubt that unless he is unlucky enough have his career curtailed by injury, cook will retire as england's leading run scorer in tests by a significant margin, and with it have earned the right to be considered as one of england's greatest ever test batsman.
but atherton will always have a special place in my memories. handed the captaincy at a young age, completely unsupported by those senior to him, managing a very ordinary and often unhappy side, facing some very strong fast bowling attack and playing through the end of his career in significant pain. there's a grit there that should make everyone want to treasure his career as a paragon of tenacity and stoicism. being called the cockroach by steve waugh is about as close to admiration as i reckon you'll ever get from him for a English cricketer, which is very high praise indeed.
and he was also a joy to watch when he was set.
Without doubt Athers is, to steal a chapter heading about him from a Michael Parkinson book, 'A great Englishman'.
Still not without his faults though, he was definitely 'at it' with the dirt in the pocket & declaring on Hick was nothing short of shameful.
The fact that he still admits no wrongdoing over either of these incidents is greatly to his credit however-'never apologise, it's a sign of weakness'-John Wayne (in Big Jake I think!)-stubborn cussedness is a greatly underrated quality.
Anyway we are veering away from the main issue, ie Flinto££ is a total t!t
Still not without his faults though, he was definitely 'at it' with the dirt in the pocket & declaring on Hick was nothing short of shameful.
The fact that he still admits no wrongdoing over either of these incidents is greatly to his credit however-'never apologise, it's a sign of weakness'-John Wayne (in Big Jake I think!)-stubborn cussedness is a greatly underrated quality.
Anyway we are veering away from the main issue, ie Flinto££ is a total t!t
Actually re: Hick, with hindsight Athers is more nuanced in defending his declaration. Basically I think he says that it was in principle the right decision, taking all emotion out of it, given the match situation; but with hindsight he would not have done it because of the negative effect it had on the team/dressing room (and the converse positive feeling there would have been had he got his 100). And at the end of the day, England didn't win the match.
Arguably perhaps his apparent lack of appreciation for this sort of thing - harnessing personal milestones/ambition for the good of the team, rather than treating them as something to be in constant competition with it - was a factor in why he wasn't really a particularly good or successful captain (contrast, for example, with Strauss letting Bell get his century against Sri Lanka last year - a decision many continue to say was "wrong", despite the fact that England actually won the game!)
Arguably perhaps his apparent lack of appreciation for this sort of thing - harnessing personal milestones/ambition for the good of the team, rather than treating them as something to be in constant competition with it - was a factor in why he wasn't really a particularly good or successful captain (contrast, for example, with Strauss letting Bell get his century against Sri Lanka last year - a decision many continue to say was "wrong", despite the fact that England actually won the game!)
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