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a much stricter and prolonged lockdown? A vaccine is years away, if it ever comes. Herd Immunity is highly unlikely anywhere in the world with current rates of infection. The ad hoc, stop/start, hope for the best approach currently employed here and in the States is not working so far. Are the leaders of the westerm world just waiting and hoping the virus will die out? We can't totally wreck the economy, but we can't let hundreds of thousands of people die either. If we don't get on top of testing, tracking and tracing in a real and meaningful way, the consequences could be much worse than we realise.
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Exactly. Exactly.
It's a nonsense. When politicians try to face up to reality they are attacked. And the ones who say it'll all just get better and who treat us like children are praised, as they attack the people living in the real world.
"Are the leaders of the westerm world just waiting and hoping the virus will die out?". Well that's either the Nicola Sturgeon strategy OR she just wanted 1 extra week to prove she was a proper leader and start an argument. Hmm.
"If we don't get on top of testing, tracking and tracing in a real and meaningful way, the consequences could be much worse than we realise."
Well .. How will this work out? If this becomes endemic, and like seasonal flu, are we all going to be constantly tracked and tested?
As it was pointed out the other day, if the TTI is on word only, and not proper testing, the ability for "subscribers" (posibly malicious) to be **** and manipulate it is pretty bad..
It's a nonsense. When politicians try to face up to reality they are attacked. And the ones who say it'll all just get better and who treat us like children are praised, as they attack the people living in the real world.
"Are the leaders of the westerm world just waiting and hoping the virus will die out?". Well that's either the Nicola Sturgeon strategy OR she just wanted 1 extra week to prove she was a proper leader and start an argument. Hmm.
"If we don't get on top of testing, tracking and tracing in a real and meaningful way, the consequences could be much worse than we realise."
Well .. How will this work out? If this becomes endemic, and like seasonal flu, are we all going to be constantly tracked and tested?
As it was pointed out the other day, if the TTI is on word only, and not proper testing, the ability for "subscribers" (posibly malicious) to be **** and manipulate it is pretty bad..
May 16, 2020 -- 1:43AM, Just Checking wrote:
Exactly. Exactly.It's a nonsense. When politicians try to face up to reality they are attacked. And the ones who say it'll all just get better and who treat us like children are praised, as they attack the people living in the real world. "Are the leaders of the westerm world just waiting and hoping the virus will die out?". Well that's either the Nicola Sturgeon strategy OR she just wanted 1 extra week to prove she was a proper leader and start an argument. Hmm."If we don't get on top of testing, tracking and tracing in a real and meaningful way, the consequences could be much worse than we realise."Well .. How will this work out? If this becomes endemic, and like seasonal flu, are we all going to be constantly tracked and tested?As it was pointed out the other day, if the TTI is on word only, and not proper testing, the ability for "subscribers" (posibly malicious) to be **** and manipulate it is pretty bad..
And here is another one of yours where you force the SNP/Sturgeon into it.
If we had a very strict and protracted lockdown that got the numbers down low enough to enable track and trace, it still looks like we would need lockdowns and restrictions. S Korea usually cited as the best at track and trace but they still have all schools and nightlife shut. China are sporadically locking down cities and there's even concerns in Wuhan, Singapore another track and tracer that needed lockdown.
The only reason to justify a legal lockdown is hospitals being over run.
That has not happened.
So give the people the facts and about the risks and let them choose what to do on an individual basis.
That has not happened.
So give the people the facts and about the risks and let them choose what to do on an individual basis.
"The only reason to justify a legal lockdown is hospitals being over run.
That has not happened.
So give the people the facts and about the risks and let them choose what to do on an individual basis."
Exactly.
That has not happened.
So give the people the facts and about the risks and let them choose what to do on an individual basis."
Exactly.
ffs, give it up,
for the millionth time your not doing it on an individual basis, your actions effect other,s ,the only way your doing it on an individual basis is if your in lockdown,the very thing you don't want
no ones this thick surely,must be an act
for the millionth time your not doing it on an individual basis, your actions effect other,s ,the only way your doing it on an individual basis is if your in lockdown,the very thing you don't want
no ones this thick surely,must be an act
No idea what you mean by a prolonged and much stricter lockdown but it sounds like something me and plenty of others would say bollox to.
1tp calling other people thick. How many times before this stops being funny :)
We'll just have to accept that if you're fat or old or just plain unlucky with your health, then the days have gone when you can keep expecting or demanding the right to live like a teenager until the age of 90.
If you're young and healthy, then go out, work hard, play hard.
If you're a thin 58-year-old male like me, be sensible about what you do and who you do it with. It's not the end of the world not to travel up to London for a packed-out gig any more.
If you're a fat old bastard, then stay at home, watch the telly and don't keep whinging about not being able to hug the grandkids. They won't be missing it. They'll be out playing in the sunshine with their friends instead, where they should be. You won't be. Boo hoo.
If you're young and healthy, then go out, work hard, play hard.
If you're a thin 58-year-old male like me, be sensible about what you do and who you do it with. It's not the end of the world not to travel up to London for a packed-out gig any more.
If you're a fat old bastard, then stay at home, watch the telly and don't keep whinging about not being able to hug the grandkids. They won't be missing it. They'll be out playing in the sunshine with their friends instead, where they should be. You won't be. Boo hoo.
,think you,ll find there,s millions of young fit healthy people wont be playing or working hard ,because they,ll be short of billions of pounds worth of free childcare and free beds to rest their heads on,but good try,the drawing boards still open if you want to go back to it,
screaming from beneaththewaves:- one off the most disgusting statements I have had the displeasure to read on this forum, laced with hate and total lacking any empathy. I suggest you crawl back into your DIY bunker and stay everyone's good. Iam really pleased not to be your neighbour or ever make your acquaintance.
We'll just have to accept that if you're fat or old or just plain unlucky with your health, then the days have gone when you can keep expecting or demanding the right to live like a teenager until the age of 90.
If you're young and healthy, then go out, work hard, play hard.
If you're a thin 58-year-old male like me, be sensible about what you do and who you do it with. It's not the end of the world not to travel up to London for a packed-out gig any more.
If you're a fat old bastard, then stay at home, watch the telly and don't keep whinging about not being able to hug the grandkids. They won't be missing it. They'll be out playing in the sunshine with their friends instead, where they should be. You won't be. Boo hoo.
This post started off well, and I was agreeing with the jist of what you were saying, but you let yourself down the grandparents thing, why say that, many grandparents-grandkids are really close with each other and grandparents especially have probably being dying of loneliness without seeing their grandkids, for many of them it gives them meaning in their life and energy, what keeps them going. Also there are many grandkids out there who prefer being around their grandparents then their own parents.
If you're young and healthy, then go out, work hard, play hard.
If you're a thin 58-year-old male like me, be sensible about what you do and who you do it with. It's not the end of the world not to travel up to London for a packed-out gig any more.
If you're a fat old bastard, then stay at home, watch the telly and don't keep whinging about not being able to hug the grandkids. They won't be missing it. They'll be out playing in the sunshine with their friends instead, where they should be. You won't be. Boo hoo.
This post started off well, and I was agreeing with the jist of what you were saying, but you let yourself down the grandparents thing, why say that, many grandparents-grandkids are really close with each other and grandparents especially have probably being dying of loneliness without seeing their grandkids, for many of them it gives them meaning in their life and energy, what keeps them going. Also there are many grandkids out there who prefer being around their grandparents then their own parents.
He did qualify that statement with ' They won't be missing it. They'll be out playing in the sunshine with their friends instead, where they should be.' This is unarguably where they should be, if a choice has to be made.
He said the grandkids won't be missing it (hugs)
Ending with a punch in the stomach (fat) making light again of the bond between grandparents/grandkids = boohoo
A very odd ending to a bland early post, imo
Ending with a punch in the stomach (fat) making light again of the bond between grandparents/grandkids = boohoo
A very odd ending to a bland early post, imo
I only had one set of grandparents, and I can't recall ever looking forward to those weekly visits. A cup of sweet tea and battenburg cake, and sit down and be quiet. I don't think they enjoyed it much either, judging by the photos I have of the three of us together.
If either of them had ever tried to hug me, I would have wondered what on earth was going on. It would have been as weird as if my parents had tried it.
A different generation, I suppose.
Mind you i can't stand kids so if the economy is shredded because of us oldies then good.
F**k 'em, give 'em something to really slag us off about.
Boomer this boomer that. 'ave it!!!!!!
F**k 'em, give 'em something to really slag us off about.
Boomer this boomer that. 'ave it!!!!!!
I had to kiss my grandparents goodbye once they'd given me a 50p piece. (when i was a child i might add)
Jesus I'd have given 'em a pound to avoid that sloppy monstrous nightmare.
I'm coming round to Screaming's way of thinking
Jesus I'd have given 'em a pound to avoid that sloppy monstrous nightmare.
I'm coming round to Screaming's way of thinking
I think this is the point I was trying to get over. Some people are getting over-sentimental and plain overwrought about how things are and how they might be in the future.
The last 35 years have been truly exceptional. If you were lucky enough to be living in a part of the world like ours, you had everything you wanted or could dream of. You didn't have to give a stuff about your health or welfare, yet you had it all, right the way through to an age that was like something out of science fiction to previous generations. In the absence of any kind of genuine threat to your well-being or way of life, you had to invent things to get distressed or sad or annoyed about.
That might have to change. It won't actually be anything major in reality (some people, through age, health or sheer bad luck will have to forgo going to the pub or to Torremolinos, for instance). But it's the change in attitude which will jar. For the first time in decades, not everyone will be able to live their lives from the viewpoint of "I can do anything I want and worry about nothing - it's a human right, and I've earned it". Even if the obesity rates suggest that they only ever really used that freedom in order to drive between the supermarket and the telly.
The last 35 years have been truly exceptional. If you were lucky enough to be living in a part of the world like ours, you had everything you wanted or could dream of. You didn't have to give a stuff about your health or welfare, yet you had it all, right the way through to an age that was like something out of science fiction to previous generations. In the absence of any kind of genuine threat to your well-being or way of life, you had to invent things to get distressed or sad or annoyed about.
That might have to change. It won't actually be anything major in reality (some people, through age, health or sheer bad luck will have to forgo going to the pub or to Torremolinos, for instance). But it's the change in attitude which will jar. For the first time in decades, not everyone will be able to live their lives from the viewpoint of "I can do anything I want and worry about nothing - it's a human right, and I've earned it". Even if the obesity rates suggest that they only ever really used that freedom in order to drive between the supermarket and the telly.
May 16, 2020 -- 10:39AM, Dotchinite wrote:
No idea what you mean by a prolonged and much stricter lockdown but it sounds like something me and plenty of others would say bollox to.
I think you're right, and that is very understandable. But the alternative is also extremely unpalatable. I'm trying not to be political about this, but we really have been led up sh!t creek without a paddle, or even a boat. 
Killed too many people too quickly, so only the less dangerous mutations survived.
There's a theory that by locking down, the weaker mutations of the coronavirus aren't being given the chance to prosper. Only the severe forms are flourishing, in hospitals and care homes.
This is what a cousin of mine in Ukraine told me about my father (born in 1921):
Ваш батько Андрій, як Ви напевно знаєте, мав велику родину, всього в родині було 12 дітей, 3 померло в дитячому віці, а залишилось 9 – Єва, Марія, Іван, Михайло, Григорій, Андрій (Ваш батько), Ганна (моя бабуся), Катерина, Микола. Їхнього батька (Вашого діда) звали Андрій, а маму (Вашу бабусю) – Юлія. На жаль Єва, Марія, Іван та Григорій померли в молодому віці від хвороб ще до війни.
Your father Andrij, as you probably know, had a large family; in all the family had 12 children, three of whom died in infancy, leaving 9 - Eva, Maria, Ivan, Michaelo, Gregory, Andrij (your father), Hanna (my grandmother), Catherina, and Nichola. Their father (your grandfather) was called Andrij and his mother (your grandmother) Yulia. Unfortunately Eva, Maria, Ivan and Gregory died at a young age from disease before the war.
In other words, out of 12 children, disease killed seven before adulthood. Perhaps this explains the lack of sentimentality about children in my parents' generation compared with the current one. You simply couldn't be sentimental about children. Life would have been unbearable. They were treated essentially as miniature adults.
It might explain why I've felt dismissive about some of the complaints surrounding the way things have changed recently. What to some of you might be genuine emotional pain, which I'm a heartless so-and-so for dismissing, can easily feel like artificial hysteria from the point of view of how my parents and grandparents brought me up..
Ваш батько Андрій, як Ви напевно знаєте, мав велику родину, всього в родині було 12 дітей, 3 померло в дитячому віці, а залишилось 9 – Єва, Марія, Іван, Михайло, Григорій, Андрій (Ваш батько), Ганна (моя бабуся), Катерина, Микола. Їхнього батька (Вашого діда) звали Андрій, а маму (Вашу бабусю) – Юлія. На жаль Єва, Марія, Іван та Григорій померли в молодому віці від хвороб ще до війни.
Your father Andrij, as you probably know, had a large family; in all the family had 12 children, three of whom died in infancy, leaving 9 - Eva, Maria, Ivan, Michaelo, Gregory, Andrij (your father), Hanna (my grandmother), Catherina, and Nichola. Their father (your grandfather) was called Andrij and his mother (your grandmother) Yulia. Unfortunately Eva, Maria, Ivan and Gregory died at a young age from disease before the war.
In other words, out of 12 children, disease killed seven before adulthood. Perhaps this explains the lack of sentimentality about children in my parents' generation compared with the current one. You simply couldn't be sentimental about children. Life would have been unbearable. They were treated essentially as miniature adults.
It might explain why I've felt dismissive about some of the complaints surrounding the way things have changed recently. What to some of you might be genuine emotional pain, which I'm a heartless so-and-so for dismissing, can easily feel like artificial hysteria from the point of view of how my parents and grandparents brought me up..
Yes, you have a point, screaming. With VE Day just a few days ago, we are quick to forget what previous generations had to go through. And we take an awful lot for granted.
I agree with the sentiments of Screaming. The point is this is not a battle we win then at some day we call it over, like we just have to give it one last push and a certain date it's all be ok. It might be that in 10 or 20 years time there is still no vaccine, or indeed never, and antiviral drugs just help "a bit". I.e. we may not be in a significantly different position to where we are now. We certainly can't go on like this.
If the ICU units are running at say 20-30% capacity why the hell should healthy young people not be allowed to go out and play football or meet their mates? Should all pubs just shut up for good? What will be so different next summer? Or the next? Sooner people accept the new reality and we move on the better imho.
Being angry at it or denying it doesn't help. It's like the 7 stages of grief.
If the ICU units are running at say 20-30% capacity why the hell should healthy young people not be allowed to go out and play football or meet their mates? Should all pubs just shut up for good? What will be so different next summer? Or the next? Sooner people accept the new reality and we move on the better imho.
Being angry at it or denying it doesn't help. It's like the 7 stages of grief.
best inform the right wing media,eradicated in London week after next were the headlines yesterday
If 1 person at a conference can infect 25 people I'd be wary of talk of "eradication".
s.f.w
Very interesting stuff and somewhere this will explain your lack of empathy. Which is very important emotion to experience.
Please don't be offended at my thoughts as none intended.
Very interesting stuff and somewhere this will explain your lack of empathy. Which is very important emotion to experience.
Please don't be offended at my thoughts as none intended.
San Quentin: No offence taken at all. It's made me think a lot. I used the wrong language, without thinking, and I shouldn't have.
And thank you to Just Checking, who understood what I'm trying to put over.
We may have to go back to the way humanity has always lived, bar the last few years: with a sense of caution, personal responsibility and limitations. And accepting that bad things happen to a lot of people, and it's not necessarily anyone's fault, or that things could or should have been different.
We may have to go back to the way humanity has always lived, bar the last few years: with a sense of caution, personal responsibility and limitations. And accepting that bad things happen to a lot of people, and it's not necessarily anyone's fault, or that things could or should have been different.
I used to moan about only being able to get a table at the Ivy once a month.
I don't think anyone is advocating a stricter or more prolonged lockdown than the one we've already had and I don't think any government is waiting for the virus to go away. If it does or if a vaccine is made then that's a bonus but the planing is for it not going away.
Case numbers need to drop a lot in the UK if tracking and tracing is to work. Not enough resources to track the current level of cases, so lockdown should continue for a while yet.
In the beginning they didn't know just how deadly the virus was but they have a fair idea now and it doesn't seem any more deadly than flu. Once case numbers drop and track and trace begins they'll have to let it spread in a controlled manner and within the limits of their track and trace resources until it becomes endemic like flu. In the beginning they let it spread in an uncontrolled manner and even encouraged the spread, which has led to a prolonged lockdown to stem the spread urgently and get cases down to a controllable level of spread - not quite there yet. Once they don't let that happen again and don't release lockdown too quickly they should be able to avoid the need for another full lockdown.
They may need to enforce restrictions more in Winter if it thrives more then and old people may have to isolate until it becomes endemic or until there's a vaccine but I don't see the lockdown getting any worse than it is and it will be released gradually in the near future and that could be the end of it. The old and vulnerable will have to take more precautions than they do for flu until there's a vaccine if ever.
Case numbers need to drop a lot in the UK if tracking and tracing is to work. Not enough resources to track the current level of cases, so lockdown should continue for a while yet.
In the beginning they didn't know just how deadly the virus was but they have a fair idea now and it doesn't seem any more deadly than flu. Once case numbers drop and track and trace begins they'll have to let it spread in a controlled manner and within the limits of their track and trace resources until it becomes endemic like flu. In the beginning they let it spread in an uncontrolled manner and even encouraged the spread, which has led to a prolonged lockdown to stem the spread urgently and get cases down to a controllable level of spread - not quite there yet. Once they don't let that happen again and don't release lockdown too quickly they should be able to avoid the need for another full lockdown.
They may need to enforce restrictions more in Winter if it thrives more then and old people may have to isolate until it becomes endemic or until there's a vaccine but I don't see the lockdown getting any worse than it is and it will be released gradually in the near future and that could be the end of it. The old and vulnerable will have to take more precautions than they do for flu until there's a vaccine if ever.
great post lurka..let's just hope it fizzles out like a lot of corona's do as the year wears on.
We all hope it fizzles out, but how many thousands will have died before it does?
we might see a similar thing happen at a similar time next year. this could be a yearly thing. we might have to build in a 2 - month winter lockdown-style holiday for most of heavily populated europe
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