Why Can't There Be a Hard Border in Northern Ireland/Ireland

What happens if Scotland becomes Independent and joins the EU after we leave the EU, will there be a hard border between England and Scotland.

I doubt either England or Scotland would want that.
Probably look to have the same freedom of movement similar to that enjoyed by the ROI an NI but of course the same issues as now in Ireland will rise should Scotland apply to join the EU.

I can't see Scotland being given another indy vote for many years to come by a Conservative Government.

If England were to leave and then Scotland join the EU, surely it would have to be up to Scotland to work out all the border arrangements and put a proposal to England.

Then the English would then take every opportunity to block any and all suggestions.

Looking at the Irish situation, that seems to be the way that it works.

The Irish are incapable of compromise on any given issue and are always prepared 
to threaten violence or resort to violence if they can’t get their own way

Eventually you have to walk away

I'm incensed by the attitude of the tin pot taoiseach of a tin pot country who hasn't the brains to understand that if there's no deal the EU will insist he creates a custom border somewhere or other.
Once this matter is finally resolved I wouldn't be unhappy to seek retribution by imposing trade restrictions with Ireland with a view to inflicting severe damage on their economy.
If the IRA resurface as a result then so be it ;they will have to face the consequences.

Good post  , also the Irish should lose the right of freedom of movement they should not be allowed the rights
to live and work in Britain , that should stop

May should never have conceded upfront that it would continue

It should have been made quite clear to the Irish that they are part of the EU now

And must accept those responsibilities

Isn't it galling Posy you sign the GFA,forgot all about it with your fanfare of sunlit uplands and unicorns and now relying on Gove,Boris and Rees-Mogg?
You created your own crock o sheet,nothing was wrong with leaving but your arrogance and ineptitude is pathetic,always someoneelses fault though,surely not the tory party who put party 1st and country 2nd.

If the Irish and the eu don’t care about the gfa

Don’t expect the British to do so either, that would just be rude

Ok lfc, i will put that last post in the how long is a piece of string category.

That doesn’t concern me either , as long as the Irish don’t start threatening violence that’s fine

pa lapsy you don't attempt to answer the point that if we leave without a deal the EU will force Eire to implement custom controls at/near/elsewhere the border.

Leo has simplified it, "Essentially what the UK has done is repudiate the deal that we negotiated in good faith with your goverment under Theresa May,and now sort of put half of that back on the table and are saying that is a concession".

I don't see how there cannot be a border on both sides if there is a no deal Posy.

So if you agree that there will be a border should there be 'no deal' then it's pointless/vindictive to adopt their current stance.

They can do and  should  do so

As we have seen in the past the Americans have been very fair.  The U.K. less so

No,i don't, there isn't one now,it was an agreement you(UK) co signed with Ire/US, you will break that pledge,not Ireland, no one wants it in the surrounding counties and some people will have to go through it a dozen times a day.

The border won’t change , there will have to be custom checks away from the border

I know that might send the Irish into a tizzy , grow up

And stop threatening violence

Put a link up who is "threatening violence" lfc.

If you are part of the EU , that’s irelands responsibility
Not ours

pl I’m not concerned about the threat of violence ...

If you aren’t

If it doesn’t exist ? very good

Let’s move on

Well you are just making unsubstantiated claims so, you said "stop threatning violence", why?

deary me , this is what happens when you try to debate with the Irish
Poor boris

ok pl there is no threat of violence , happy now ?

ok let’s get into trade talks

I sincerely hope there isn't,it would be a shame and there isn't enough "reason" imo.

Yeah,good luck with your trade talks,they seem to be on the quietish side at the moment.

The next time you`re standing on the Kop End singing "The Fields Of Liverpool" lfc1971, just remember that it was originally an Irish rebel song about British tyranny. Your beloved stadium gets its name from a field in Ireland that was at the back of the ancestral home of an Irish migrant who became mayor of Liverpool in the 1870s. So forgive my reaction to your anti-Irish rhetoric and some of the other simplistic solutions being offered to the the Irish mess that is a result of British imperialism. Unfortunately we now live in a world where political leadership is driven by narcissism. Donald the Democrat who is now a Republican and Boris the pro-Europe advocate who is now a Brexiteer. They both are happy to change their minds and mess with ordinary peoples lives, depending on which way the wind blows most advantageously for them. At least with Maggie we all knew where we stood.

I only started to support Liverpool as a young boy because my favourite footballer was
Steve Heighway , remember him ?

He was Irish , he went to university in England , he was signed to play football in England , for an English club , I watched him play
his football and live and work , in England ,

Be thankful , to England , and stop talking sh1te

GFA is not holy writ.

It is a highly flawed accord, negotiated in a state of late-night frenzy.

It is not a set of eternal laws to live by dictated to Abraham from the Lord Thy God on Mount Sinai. Now 20 years old, the agreement could be regarded as having already served its purpose: getting the island’s excitable elements to stop killing each other. I’m not suggesting we chuck the thing. But that document was put together in different political circumstances: both nations entering into the agreement were members of the EU. Now one of them is leaving. If the document cannot accommodate this modification, something is wrong with the document, not with the historical change.

For people and paper alike, the key to survival is adaptation.

The GFA itself was full of dubious compromises and exceptions — the wholesale release of prisoners, including murderers who’d served mere months; the unprecedented granting to one nation of political say in the sovereign affairs of another — all in the service of expedience. If the GFA is possible, so are a few cameras between Newry and Dundalk.

Next: the policing of any national border involves entities on either side. On the British side of this one, Britain has been clear from the outset that the UK has no interest in heavy-handed customs or immigration enforcement (See Johnson's latest proposal). That is what is called ‘the UK’s business’, there being once again such a thing as ‘the UK’s business’ is what Brexit is all about.


Moreover, the EU’s professed helplessness in the face of its own bureaucracy is fake.

Eurocrats make all manner of exceptions to their own laws when it suits them. (For years, Brussels has turned a blind eye to Russia’s political manipulation of energy prices to different member states, in flagrant violation of EU law. Germany gets a sweetheart deal, so who cares if the Poles are screwed?)

Michel Barnier’s obduracy about the rules regarding external borders is a pose, just like his concern for ‘peace’. That guy doesn’t give a rat’s a$$ about Northern Ireland.

Lastly: what is the unspeakable consequence of a ‘hard border’? Chris Patten likened tinkering with Northern Irish border arrangements to carrying ‘a can of petrol and a box of matches’. Who’d light the petrol? Supposedly, IRA retrogrades, with Sinn Fein cheering them on and the Taoiseach - never averse to a bit of Brit-bashing populist Republican dog-whistling, complicit with this (and it's 'right-wing violence / backlash' we're supposed to be afraid of in the UK since Brexit was voted for? Yeah r-i-i-i-ght!)

If one customs official checks a single boot for smuggled cigarettes, then it’s back to Tube station bombings in London!

Really?!

This whole conundrum is contrived. The Irish border is the EU's problem, since we don’t have one. With a nominal volume of trade, the border is sortable. For policy should be a slave to purpose, not the other way around.

When bureaucracy goes wrong — look at the Home Office and the Windrush affair — it is a slave to itself. Agreements, rules, laws — they’re all malleable, mere methods by which we accomplish our aims.

The UK’s aim is to escape the EU, and the EU’s aim is to stop us (or extract as much money out of us for the continuance of 'the project' and to warn others what'll happen to them if they get a bit uppity).

How convenient of you to say the GFA is now outdated,hasn't it done to now what it set out to do?

Of course you would want it changed now,it was overlooked and wasn't put on the back of a bus at the time.

However the people that are in the border vicinty certainly don't want it(both sides) and would you?

"The UK`s aim is to escape the EU"

Well it`s actually the aim of 17 million odd members of the electorate that want to leave the EU. A little less want to stay and a significant number either don`t give a toss one way or the other or were so ill-informed that they chose not vote. A lot of the problems in Northern Ireland resulted from a small majority forcing its will upon a large minority. Just because we`ve now moved a generation away from the troubles, people shouldn`t just think its forever locked in the past. The Republicans are still marching in their balaclavas and the Unionists are still banging their drums. Once a new generation comes along, they don`t understand how bad things really were, but the hatred still survives. So it doesn`t take much for the whole thing to kick off again. It`s funny that you`d mention Chris Patten considering what we see going on in Hong Kong at the moment.

As long as everyone respects the democratic referendum all will be well

I hope that’s not too difficult to understand , and that the Irish don’t continue to threaten violence

Now everyone in the U.K. , has to try and understand that simple principle

And if they vote in a referendum , respect that please

Too difficult to understand ?

I recently watched a programme about the Birmingham pub bombings

On the night of the bombings when so many were brutally murdered and maimed
and Irishman who was living in England at the time was calling into a patrol station
the news of that horrific atrocity was filtering through
At the patrol station he had to go and pay first

The worker at the station heard his accent and told him to fk off

As the Irish guy was telling this story , in the tv documentary
He seemed to be concerned only , about the fact that he was told to fk off
By the English owner of that petrol station , on that fateful night

Can you imagine

Don't see the point in the UK leaving now.

Boris tried to broker a better 'leaving deal' for the UK by playing a game of poker. But the politicians blocked him and tied him up like Houdini. If leaving without a deal is so abhorrent to most in the UK then maybe a new referendum will provide the result you seek? Was leaving with a deal one of the options in the referendum, or was it a straight in/out vote?

We have already voted to leave in no deal
That was the referendum

I voted to remain but if there’s another referendum i’ll certainly vote leave

If there has to be a second ref ( and there shouldn’t )
Make sure that option remains on the ballot
Again

Here it is ,

Do you want to leave the EU the cu , the sm , the ecj , and stop freedom of movement
or
Do you want to remain in the EU

Put it on the ballot , again

"The UK`s aim is to escape the EU"

Well it`s actually the aim of 17 million odd members of the electorate that want to leave the EU. A little less want to stay and a significant number either don`t give a toss one way or the other


Democracy is run by those who turn up

or were so ill-informed that they chose not vote. A lot of the problems in Northern Ireland resulted from a small majority forcing its will upon a large minority. Just because we`ve now moved a generation away from the troubles, people shouldn`t just think its forever locked in the past. The Republicans are still marching in their balaclavas and the Unionists are still banging their drums. Once a new generation comes along, they don`t understand how bad things really were, but the hatred still survives. So it doesn`t take much for the whole thing to kick off again. It`s funny that you`d mention Chris Patten considering what we see going on in Hong Kong at the moment.

How long do you think we - the entirety of the UK - should stay in thrall to the men of violence and suspend democratic decisions for fear of resprisal from hotheads who cannot see the undoubted benefits of peace? If this is a live issue, what measures are the present Taoiseach implementing, to curtail such deadly and illegal activity / blackmail?

.....or does it suit him to make dog-whistle overtures to 'The Boys' (much as it suits Farage to raise the spectre of right-wing violence if Brexit in any meanngful form, is not delivered)?

The leprechauns who smuggle red diesel will put a hex on you.

The present EU is very different to one we joined - that's an important fact; The EU is no longer geared towards economic prowess but political dominance, bureaucracy and lack of accountability.

Didn't you get the current extension in order to ratify the WA?

You had the "hulk" posturing and bullshitin up to a couple of weeks ago roaring and shouting that he wasn't interested in negotiating and now at the last minute desperately trying to throw a shambles of a solution at it(as said above).

All a bit late,easy to play the blame game,not much left.

Oct 9, 2019 -- 3:16PM, flushgordon1 wrote:

The leprechauns who smuggle red diesel will put a hex on you.

Hanx

Democracy is run by those that turn up

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter"
                               Winston Churchill



How long do you think we - the entirety of the UK-should stay in the thrall of men of violence

Well the gunmen are a direct product of imperialism. If Hitler had sent an army across the Channel in 1940, I`m sure he wouldn`t have been expecting a red carpet. Nobody wants anyone to be beholden to terrorism. The problem is that Boris "Dougal McGuire" Johnson can`t walk past a hornets nest without giving it a kick. He`s only interested in short term personal gain and doesn`t care about the consequences as long as he doesn`t have to suffer them.

Just over a third of the British electorate voted for Brexit, there was no stipulation about hard or soft. What difference does it make if it takes another year or even ten years to sort it out? It`s all very well for your average Brexiteer in Newcastle who`s far removed from the Irish border, but Northern Ireland didn`t vote for Brexit, nor did the Scots. The Irish government just want to stick by the terms of the GFA. It`s the only game in town and it`s working.

Guy Verhofstadt nails it this evening,everyone else is to blame except yourselves.

The EU trying to annexe a part of he UK for political ends and using their long time allies, the ROI, to help them.
When the GFA was agreed by the inept Blair nothing was put in place for this current situation.
Therefore after the integrity of the UK Union is recognised it would be time to revisit the Agreement and adjust accordingly.

Ultimately you can spend forever and a day talking but you will never get people like kkkattt or the Irish to change their mindset on anything
You have in the end to ignore them
The U.K. simply has to say we will implement the result of the democratic referendum and leave on a certain date

Tell them we would like to talk , but unfortunately times up

Why not have a referendum in the 6 counties?

2 choices

1/ Remain in the EU while still being part of the UK with a natural sea border between Ireland and UK.

2/ Leave the EU customs union with the rest of the UK.

The vote to leave the EU was not a country by country vote but of the UK as a whole.
We voted to leave as a Union.

Jack pratsaw, don't create threads on somwething you are clueless about. HTH.

The people of NI didn't though,they are the ones getting a border shoved on them,the dup have failed the people of NI.

Why as someone who lives in Northern Ireland who didn"t vote for brexit help facilitate the UK to achieve it by allowing a border to be put up in my country, can"t the English get it through their thick heads its not our problem its yours.

Hey Pa me oul segotia, hows it hanging, hope you are well and winning.

I'm grand BTF,nice to see you posting,always a level headed view. Still enjoying my modest punting.

Why use the term English? It is the UK government and they don't want a border.
It is the EU and the ROI saying we'll need a border.
pa lapsy surely it is SF letting down  NI by spitting out their dummy and refusing to take their seats.

While N Ireland is part of the UK there will have to be a border , thats how it is

Ah Aka,why the delay in the "cash for ash" inquiry? Arlene must be in the height of it? You actually can put morals and SF in the sentence on that episode.
Why have the dup neglected the majority wish of the people of NI? Started off with the billion but gone way past that.

So according to you lfc i have no rights whatsoever i have to accept a border, no matter what harm and chaos that will ensue and you are wondering why the Republic are fighting tooth and nail against it.

The U.K. needs all parts of the union to prosper post Brexit ( if it happens )

That means n Ireland must leave the customs union to allow it to benefit along with the rest of the U.K.

You see that will strengthen the union
Republicans wish to weaken it

N Ireland would effectively lose the ability to form its own trade policy
It would be dictated to by a foreign power , the EU

Lfc the english never have or never will give a toss about Northern Ireland, I lived through thirty years of troubles in this country and will oppose anything that could help drag us back to it again.

What Billion did the DUP get pa lapsy?
I know the NIA got a Billion.
I also know that one of the first projects to benefit from it was a SF project.

@mukdahan The UK government are fighting tooth and nail for a no hard border situation.
They have asked the EU and ROI to look at electronic options but they won't play ball.

now if people like muchadan wish to change that fine
They will have to vote for a United ireland

The border is there , there will need to be custom checks done somewhere just as in others parts of the U.K. and Ireland
Get over it

The border is there , there will need to be custom checks done somewhere just as in others parts of the U.K. and Ireland
Get over it

The problem with a United Ireland is obvious.
They could vote for it but would the ROI want to take on NI.
I doubt they would. Financial mess.

"Fighting tooth and nail", that is bolliux,they threw up a ludicrous proposal during the week which was rightly laughed at.

muchdahan there is no need to get so upset
There will be customs checks in the ROI and custom checks in the north

We can’t be any more equal than that

I never mentioned a United Ireland,i said a referendum in the 6 counties to stay in both the EU and UK.

How many on here (very few I expect) are aware of the 'peace walls' that exist in NI. These are 'Berlin style' walls to keep opposing factions apart, they are in themselves 'mini. borders, policed and closed at night. (6pm) 57 miles at the last count.The Government would have us believe only 21+ miles.

Yes in the United kingdom we have mini borders seperating fighting factions. My advice to many posters on here, especially the Irish hating lfc, is get a brain then get an education, buy a chunhk of humanity, as it's obviosuly not in you, then and only then come back here and debate. Pull out at your peril!.

Your starter for 10.

Let me leave you with this thought there was 3500 killed during the troubles and over 30000 seriously injured imagine if we had a population similar to the uk that would be 100000 killed and 750000 seriously injured now how would you like me to say to you 20 years after the troubles have ended that i would like to put up a border and possibly plunge you back into the nightmare again, i hardly think you would be too agreeable.

Spot on.^^^

More threats of violence from the Irish
Look btf , I’m not impressed that the Irish need walls to keep them apart

If that’s the case I suggest you stop whining about an imaginary wall at the border

Now we are not going to have to police you forever
You will have to learn to behave sometime
Now seems as good a time as any

It’s very simple , obey the law as we all have to do

Lfc why are you whining about the referendum its not legally binding it was simply a snapshot of what people were thinking, so you won the battle but hopefully lose the war, after all your happy to tell the irish to get over it.

@mukdahan. Nobody wants a return to the troubles other than the current dissidents.
But to simply avoid taking decisions in case it upsets them is unpalatable to most.
Foxy I lived and worked in NI and my wife is from their. I have a good understanding of the area.

And don’t expect anyone to pat you on the head and say well done
We’re not impressed

Ok. your starter for 10. https://theculturetrip.com/europe/united-kingdom/northern-ireland/articles/t...

muldahan I’m happy to accept the result of any referendum
Without trying to overthrough it or threaten violence

Now until the Irish can do likewise stop preaching

mukdahan. Referendums are advisory and not legally binding as you say but almost 100% of MPs said in parliament they would abide by its result.

Oh , and stop whining until you can understand that also

Hey aka, hope you are well my friend.

Whining! change the fckin record.

lfc, You really are a one dimensional 'That Was AlrightThen' the first letter of each word makes a word bannnded on here.

GN guys, can't be doing witht his phish.

Well boxing the fox comes on for a few minutes , just enough time to throw insults
And he’s gone
That’s good I don’t mind him being rude , it means I can be also :)

I remember the opinion polls of the 90s when almost 10% of the NI electorate favoured an independent NI.

Would that be the 1690s

If the U.K. leaves in no deal that’s ok
In fact it will be very good for the people of n Ireland
And bad for the ROI
That’s how it is

They could under those circumstances vote for a United ireland
they would  be mad to do so

Was that when you last tipped a winner Mac?

I thought that the 1690 quip was very quick witted aka.

I tipped on today but I was scared to send you it

I`ll get me coat

No it was very good.
Up with your Trilby music quip which btw probably wasn't that far from the truth.

Even Trilby appreciated that joke, he said today

don't ever bring your own jokes down, Mac when we have JCs  jokes to contend with

lol Bap - he had me laugh once but I forget the quip.

The GFA has been violated by all sides since it has been written.

Suddenly now it has been remembered about again by Remainers