is religion a sign of mental illness or

Having an imaginary friend is not normal unless you are about 6

Try asking at your local mosque

Do they have them in Broadmoor?

I'm not religious but I think someone is looking after me
I do know that life  and people in this country was much better when people went to church and feared god

A person who lives on god's will is a much better person than those whos lives run on their own will

If you look at the people's faces on songs of praise they all look well and seem at peace with there selves

I remember going to a bowls match on a Sunday morning sat in my car outside the venue  .I saw all the bowlers comeing to the match full of beer from the night before.and i saw those people  going to church looking awake all clean and smart and thought to myself they might be the ones living the right life

Radio 4 did another episode of Born In Bradford today I, listened to it while driving round the dump as it happens. It illustrated the damage religion is doing to the children in the city, depressing listening.

Cast iron symptom of Mental Illness .
Only my opinion but looking at all the evidence I'm of the same opinion as @portmanpark

It allows you to lean on something else. It allows you to blame something else  ie  It is  ....' will, we hear a lot these days.

But as I know the mice built the earth as an experiment to find out what the question was (they already had the answer)  I have a very different view of the universe compared to many.

I must beam up and ask them if liverpool are going to win

bye for now!!

I don't think it's mental illness or stupidity. I'd say mostly, maybe 90% for believers which is a pure guess, it's down to cultural upbringing and subsequent lifestyle.

Charlie • September 17, 2019 5:41 PM BST
I don't think it's mental illness or stupidity. I'd say mostly, maybe 90% for believers which is a pure guess, it's down to cultural upbringing and subsequent lifestyle.

For most 'normal' folk a guess is based on at least some evidence

Give me some guesses of what you think then.

The 90% was a guess not the rest of the sentence.

I'd agree, Charlie. Apparently Muslim kids do 2 hours after school at a Madrasah learning the book, that's ten hours a week or 500 a year, no wonder they have never broken free after 60 years here.

Sep 17, 2019 -- 5:29PM, Reynard wrote:

Cast iron symptom of Mental Illness .Only my opinion but looking at all the evidence I'm of the same opinion as @portmanpark

So that means 100%. Where's the evidence of was that a guess based on nothing.

I read the Beano.
Another good comic is the Guardian.  If you read it you will know what the bbc's line will be that day.

It is based on 'Nothing' . Nothing in the way of any tangible evidence of any 'God' .

Sep 17, 2019 -- 5:45PM, saddo wrote:

I'd agree, Charlie. Apparently Muslim kids do 2 hours after school at a Madrasah learning the book, that's ten hours a week or 500 a year, no wonder they have never broken free after 60 years here.

Not just Muslims look at most religions around the world. People tend to follow the religions of their parents.

Sep 17, 2019 -- 5:48PM, Reynard wrote:

It is based on 'Nothing' . Nothing in the way of any tangible evidence of any 'God' .

You're changing the argument. You said 100% mental illness. Where's the evidence?

If you're going to slag me off for guessing then I'd at least expect you to have evidence of what you're talking about.

Some evidence?

I'm not suggesting that religion doesn't serve a purpose .
Much religious scripture is an excellent blueprint on how to live a virtuous and fruitful life . This is quite useful for those among us who struggle to grasp the difference between right and wrong .
Unfortunately the are many examples of 'believers' who still carry out evil acts , many in the name of their religion .

Charlie • September 17, 2019 5:51 PM BST
If you're going to slag me off for guessing then I'd at least expect you to have evidence of what you're talking about.

Who has 'slagged' you off ?

When you look at the beauty of the earth and all it has to offer .compared to the other planets it must make you wonder

For most 'normal' folk a guess is based on at least some evidence

I don't really think that was meant as a compliment.

So where's your evidence of "Cast iron symptom of Mental Illness ."?

So that qualifies as a 'slagging off' does it ?
A simple difference of opinion ?
WOW ! Someone's touchy

You're trying to worm your way out of what you said. You deliberately quoted 'normal' with a clear implication and then italicised some. Why bother?

do wah…….you have described nature and come to the conclusion ..I cant think of anything else so it must be god

Charlie • September 17, 2019 5:53 PM BST
Some evidence?

Hearing voices in one's head . Seeing apparitions .
Are these examples of experiences of someone deemed ' normal' ?

And still no evidence of what you said.

See above ..................

without any evidence

Evidence to the contrary , if you please ?

Sep 17, 2019 -- 6:04PM, Reynard wrote:

Charlie • September 17, 2019 5:53 PM BSTSome evidence?Hearing voices in one's head . Seeing apparitions . Are these examples of experiences of someone deemed ' normal' ?

How do you know they are a sign of being religious?

What do I know ? You seem to know everything

I'm still awaiting your evidence of "Cast iron symptom of Mental Illness" . Or you just trying to pretend you never said that.

See my post @ 6.04

6:04 you said see above. That's really good evidence.

OP needs a history lesson.

I guess he/she/other thinks Saunders, Fry, Nightingdale, Wilberforce, Shaftesbury, the Booths etc etc +100m were fruitcakes.

Re Shaftesbury - what does the Eros status on Picc Circus mean to you?

I offered an opinion and you went on the defensive . Now you are just being pedantic (or maybe plain stupid) .
I made two posts @ 6.04 and you opt to quote the one which you find less difficult to counter .

Ok
I didn't go on the defensive, far from it as you can see.

Do you really believe that all religious people do this: Hearing voices in one's head . Seeing apparitions .

It only requires a yes or no answer.

shaftsbury was a big noise in 1830s reform.  changing working conditions and general welfare - defo not too out of it

No , would be the direct answer , but most , if not all , follow those that claim to have !

religion, mans worst ever invention.

Sep 17, 2019 -- 6:17PM, Reynard wrote:

No , would be the direct answer , but most , if not all , follow those that claim to have !

So you said 100% before but now it's not. And your proof for: but most , if not all , follow those that claim to have

(no space before a comma by the way)

And to accuse someone who holds a different opinion to yourself as 'slagging you off' is going on the defensive .
Dunno why I'm bothering to have a discussion with one so touchy

Re Shaftesbury:

One of his biographers, Georgina Battiscombe, has claimed that "No man has in fact ever done more to lessen the extent of human misery or to add to the sum total of human happiness".[63]


And yet the OP and others think he and his like are mentally insane...On the contrary, they have given us what we enjoy and take for granted today.

Easier to criticise my punctuation than criticise my view . Says it all really . Job done . End of . Bye

No proof again. Shame on you.

I'll refer you to my post @ 6.05 and I'll pop back tomorrow to confirm that you still have no response

You are the one giving out all of these 'facts' but you have no proof. Nobody will believe you.

When you read the thread back you have been made to look very silly. You started arguing against my guess then have offered absolutely no evidence of you said.

Charlie • September 17, 2019 6:25 PM BST
You are the one giving out all of these 'facts' but you have no proof. Nobody will believe you.

Unlike various religious leaders , I don't require people to believe me in order to justify my existence

injera...……….those people are long dead...……….would they be believers now...……...science and our understanding as moved on since their day

Islamabad!

Sep 17, 2019 -- 5:19PM, Do wah Diddy wrote:

I'm not religious but I think someone is looking after me I do know that life  and people in this country was much better when people went to church and feared god A person who lives on god's will is a much better person than those whos lives run on their own will If you look at the people's faces on songs of praise they all look well and seem at peace with there selves

mushrooms

pp - you want a current list?

Most civilised democratic country's laws are based on Christian tenets.
Most Sh!tholes  are not.

The head of the genome project francis Collins became a Christian when out hiking he saw a waterfall frozen in 3 parts.....don't tell you don't think that's stupid

so injera no I don't want a list

flush...………..but in the ****s like parkistan they worship the SAME god.....

I am just thinking mental illness/religion/outrages link - it seems to be the in thing in the last decade.

Religion is the original project fear. It's the way an elite few control the many to maintain and augment their privileged position.
Being in control of the narrative they ordain regular repetition of the mantra by everyone from the earliest age thus cementing the indoctrination as the truth with a set of rules to be obeyed without question.
Some religions may have a marginally better outcome for the general population than others but the principal aim is the same.

don't forget the dosh, Mr 100/1

To fill a void or atone for an event (more likely unfortunate) in one's life. It's therapeutic fro some, not for yours truly.

We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them ‘religious’; otherwise, they are likely to be called ‘mad’, ‘psychotic’ or ‘delusional’.. clearly there is sanity in numbers.
It is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window.

   Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion

Fountain if there isn't a god then your spot on

but you can blame ......  someone's will etc   - a great scheme to wreak havoc and say ..........'it was his work' etc

I didn't forget the dosh Mr Baphornet, it's alluded to in the word "augment".
You are right it's very important, have you made a donation to the Notre Dame restoration fund?

i sent them my prized signed copy of Victor Hugos Les Mis (it seemed appropriate) to auction. I also included a copy of Charles Laughtons boxing novel Punishment i took in the ring  (even more appropriate)

To define the term " mental illness" you firstly have to define what could be construed as being " mentally healthy". Is it healthier for the mind to fabricate a belief in a book of mythology to create a purpose for a pointless finite existence with the belief there is a point and possible afterlife or believe we are all insignificant collections of dust particles hence descending into depression which is apparently " mental illness" and certainly not healthy for mind or body. I certainly believe there is a correlation between religion and intelligence and there have been numerous studies done showing a positive trend between declining IQ and the propensity to be religious.. lets face it regardless of mental illness, to believe that screaming and singing in a church or mosque following ancient texts written by man is the definition of something. I prefer to call it the illness of being fcking stupid personally.

Good point

You look at religion from the believers perspective and call it stupidity.
But how powerful do the enforcers(priests, imams etc) have been over the course of centuries that till today hardly any of them have been exposed as spreading mental illness? Where do they get this power from? Priests getting away with child abuse or imams getting away with spreading terrorism, where do they derive their power from?

You can't just call something stupidity, without acknowledging that if it indeed is stupidity, how come humans never exposed it? You're saying a guy makes up a religion and gets billions of peopls e to follow him for centuries, that guy is a fkin genius is he not? How about calling the prophets the greatest businessmen ever? Credit where its due.

In times gone by , ancient Egyptian civilisations believed the sun was pulled across the sky by a chariot with horses towing it like red rum in the national simply because they couldn't explain why the sun appeared to travel across the sky. Now we have " heaven and hell" in order to explain why "evil " events occur and the assumed karma waiting in the afterlife for those that commit these acts in order to make sense of something that can't be explained- it's the same principle using a child like mentality to give a purpose to something like santa claus for kids which most children under a certain age believe in... presumably you think the bright spark who created the idea of the tooth fairy , santa claus etc is  a " fcking genius " as well.

The average IQ is 100 in the population which essentially means the masses are asses and whilst there are plenty of "intelligent " people in society , there are huge swathes of society who are idiots. Taking human civilisation as a whole , a few hundred years isnt that long ago in terms of how long we have been on the planet and in the 16th/17th century we were burning women at stakes for having black hair and drilling holes in peoples heads to let the devil out with perceived mental illness. The human race isn't particularly advanced and it's only now we are beginning to question these dark age pagan rituals of " eating the body of Christ" and kneeling on a mat worshipping the paedophile prophet. Of course, people that believe this religious guff don't take too kindly to their simple mindset being questioned so anyone questioning it are threatened with hell or decapitation depending on your choice of mythological dogma you subscribe to.

But who is stopping people from coming together and saying this doesn't make sense, lets get over it. Collective stupidity?

Why would people " come together " and say lets get over it? Most people are atheist/agnostic in the UK or are of no religious denomination anyway- it's only in the more uncivilised backward countries that people are forced to believe in certain religions due to fear of death/imprisonment etc. People are free to believe what they choose ultimately, it's not for anyone to come together and say you aren't right in the head.. if I believed in singing goblins in my back garden screeching all things bright and beautiful playing trumpets it's no ones business bar mine. My issue with it is when it starts getting preached to others or we here of tax payers money used to fund mosques etc

hear *

over a quarter of german population pays church tax. Thats a lot of stupid people paying a lot of money for their belief. So even in a developed country people can't realize their stupidity. Why?

You believing in singing goblins may show your stupidity. But 20 million people paying 9% income tax to believe in singing goblins is another level. Surely the enforcer of this belief deserves credit for making people pay for such a stupid belief?

and using your figures over three quarters of the population don't pay church tax so that's the majority of people. I don't know what you mean by " enforcer "of this belief or what belief you mean as no one is enforced to believe anything and you can opt out of church taxes by opting out of the church which the majority of people do.

There is no one religion , so no one can take credit for anything. Even religions like Christianity have different branches of it with different beliefs ,catholic /protestant etc - it is what is had always been going back to greek Gods and Egyptian God Ra - people trying to find a purpose in their finite lives. Some people believe in Allah , some believe in Jesus , some believe in Buddha , scientologists believe in a galactic ruler called Xenu ( a darth vader type figure).. why is one more credible than the other and singing goblins more daft than the ones just listed?

Of course, people that believe this religious guff don't take too kindly to their simple mindset being questioned so anyone questioning it are threatened with hell or decapitation

By enforcer, i mean the person threatening people with death for instance. So if you leave Islam, its ok to murder you. Is that because a lot of stupid people came up with this? or just one smart person, the enforcer, made it up and told everyone to just do it?

or you could look at the catholic church as the enforcer, forcing people to pay to believe their own version of religion. Surely they are great businessmen and that needs to be acknowledged?

Wolf3011 stands up on a hill and tells everybody, if they want to believe in singing goblins in his backyard, they need to come up with 9% of their income tax payable to you.
20 million people turn up and your many generations can feed off it.

Surely you are special if you can sell that to a small group of people, let alone hundreds of millions?

All atheists are mentally ill obv - or as Paul said, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"

I don’t agree with Jordan Peterson all of the time but that is a great exchange that addresses this question from a Christian perspective quite beautifully…

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDDZIqPeHxc


His assertion is that the majority tend to dismiss religion as some kind of silly superstition without acknowledging its functional significance as the foundational principle of civilisation. The Bible shows us that salvation cannot be achieved via the state, salvation can only be achieved via the individuals adherence to the superordinate principle. The Logos, the truthful individual who follows the example set by Christ, “enacting the meta pattern of Christ’s life in their own”, “Pick up that heavy load”. This model is the foundation upon which our society is seated. To deny truth, to seek an alternative (progressivism) can only lead to corruption, chaos and civilizational downfall.

Essentially, it’s possible to acknowledge and respect the importance of that archetype without any belief in a supernatural deity.

That's true lux and you can read it in my earlier post of yesterday. The fact that order was imposed and maintained through superstitious fear for corrupt purposes does not mean that it has no benefits to civilisation. In the present era we seem to be testing if this order can be maintained by other philosophical ideas and some of the experiments have proceeded rather painfully and ended disastrously.
It's interesting to note that the project fear concept has often been used in other contexts such as for example Saddam's WMDs and mythical delivery systems in order to precipitate a decision to go to war. I'm sure you can think of others.

We aren't discussing whether it has benefitted society, the thread is asking whether religious people are mentally ill but the notion that something which has caused more war and deaths than any other man made creation with hundreds of thousands dying in the name of religion is fairly farcical. I think you are confusing law and religion with the former designed to control behaviour with consequences which has benefitted civilisation or attempts to despite so many examples of unfair laws etc whilst the latter is used as an emotional crutch to stave off the fear of death. What Saddams WMD have to do with religion I've no idea.

Sep 19, 2019 -- 11:21AM, detraveller wrote:

Wolf3011 stands up on a hill and tells everybody, if they want to believe in singing goblins in his backyard, they need to come up with 9% of their income tax payable to you.20 million people turn up and your many generations can feed off it.Surely you are special if you can sell that to a small group of people, let alone hundreds of millions?

Bearing in mind Christianity was "invented " hundreds of years ago, the idea that it was someone looking to make money from German church tax in 2019 is a fairly tenuous link unless you believe the holy spirit is coining it in as it floats around churches in Berlin.

Sep 19, 2019 -- 11:28AM, DickTurpin wrote:

All atheists are mentally ill obv - or as Paul said, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"

The fact you are quoting a passage in a book of mythology to back up an argument for mental illness doesn't bode well for your own mindset tbh.. what's next , snow white and the 7 dwarves ?

Wolf, the link is the project fear concept. religion being the original one.

Regarding whether religious belief is a sign of mental illness I would say not in the vast majority of individual believers.
It is more a manifestation of susceptibility to brainwashing from an early age which we all are and the persistence of that learning into adult life which  doesn't apply to everyone. It may also indicate a basic insecurity and a need for universal certainties as a "comfort blanket".

Just seen your last post Baph, made me smile.

I am just trying to imagine the kind of work that goes into creating a religion or a concept such as the sun is moved by a carriage of horses. One single person at some point comes up with an idea like this. Some ideas can't stand the test of time while others are still widespread. If religion is a mental illness, how does this illness spread from the creator's brain to the followers hearts? And then stay there for centuries without anyone making a cure?

If one is an atheist and knows for sure religion is fraud, would he then appreciate the kind of influence prophets have had on people, knowing they had nothing but a bunch of lies to work with? Such an achievement is nothing short of miraculous but I don't see anyone appreciating that. All I see is the stupid followers getting the blame.

The reason I mentioned the church tax is because it is a case of people paying their hard earned money to be able to follow someone else's belief. If you think that isn't miraculous, try making people pay their money just so they can get a chance to believe in singing goblins in 'your' backyard.

A lot of moronic atheists equating Catholicism with Christianity.............mindless matter speaking drivel.

Mr 100/1 that was my intention

Sep 19, 2019 -- 2:39PM, DickTurpin wrote:

A lot of moronic atheists equating Catholicism with Christianity.............mindless matter speaking drivel.

If you are calling people who don't believe in God " moronic " , Lord knows what that makes you quoting the bible if you will pardon the pun. Unless your post is heavily laced on sarcasm I'd suggest the only thing robbed dickturpin is your one remaining brain cell. Adherence to the forms of Christian doctrine and practice which are generally regarded as Catholic is Catholicism so I haven't a clue what you are babbling on about unless the holy ghost has floated away with the above mentioned brain cell.

Sep 19, 2019 -- 1:46PM, detraveller wrote:

I am just trying to imagine the kind of work that goes into creating a religion or a concept such as the sun is moved by a carriage of horses. One single person at some point comes up with an idea like this. Some ideas can't stand the test of time while others are still widespread. If religion is a mental illness, how does this illness spread from the creator's brain to the followers hearts? And then stay there for centuries without anyone making a cure? If one is an atheist and knows for sure religion is fraud, would he then appreciate the kind of influence prophets have had on people, knowing they had nothing but a bunch of lies to work with? Such an achievement is nothing short of miraculous but I don't see anyone appreciating that. All I see is the stupid followers getting the blame.The reason I mentioned the church tax is because it is a case of people paying their hard earned money to be able to follow someone else's belief. If you think that isn't miraculous, try making people pay their money just so they can get a chance to believe in singing goblins in 'your' backyard.

No one knows anything for sure, everyone is effectively guessing but it's a guess on the balance of logical probability. You state it's miraculous people pay the church tax, but grown men are paid millions of pounds to run around in shorts kicking a modified pigs bladder about a patch of grass with thousands of peoples lives influenced by if it goes between two painted sticks so it's not that hard to believe.

My Betfair balance is modified every day by whether or not a small number of these highly paid men kick the ball between two painted sticks (and under a third) so they have a greater direct influence on me than the religionists.

well absolutely

Religion is for some and not others. It's also an escape from possibly an odious occupation, past or present. If it helps one god and well - it's also cheap and not abusive to others not conducive.

Sep 20, 2019 -- 12:07AM, wolf3011 wrote:

Sep 19, 2019 --  1:46PM, detraveller wrote:I am just trying to imagine the kind of work that goes into creating a religion or a concept such as the sun is moved by a carriage of horses. One single person at some point comes up with an idea like this. Some ideas can't stand the test of time while others are still widespread. If religion is a mental illness, how does this illness spread from the creator's brain to the followers hearts? And then stay there for centuries without anyone making a cure? If one is an atheist and knows for sure religion is fraud, would he then appreciate the kind of influence prophets have had on people, knowing they had nothing but a bunch of lies to work with? Such an achievement is nothing short of miraculous but I don't see anyone appreciating that. All I see is the stupid followers getting the blame.The reason I mentioned the church tax is because it is a case of people paying their hard earned money to be able to follow someone else's belief. If you think that isn't miraculous, try making people pay their money just so they can get a chance to believe in singing goblins in 'your' backyard.No one knows anything for sure, everyone is effectively guessing but it's a guess on the balance of logical probability. You state it's miraculous people pay the church tax, but grown men are paid millions of pounds to run around in shorts kicking a modified pigs bladder about a patch of grass with thousands of peoples lives influenced by if it goes between two painted sticks so it's not that hard to believe.

If you are referring to football, I wouldn't call football a mental illness. Neither will I call it stupidity. Its just a game. Yes people pay footballers a lot. But that pay is associated with the recognition and acceptance of their ability. They are making money off their skill, and people are paying to watch their skill in action. The money is being paid for something real. I doubt a footballer would be able to make people pay money for practicing inside his home with no one watching. If anyone's willing to pay me to play football in my room, I can send him my bank details.

If we assume religion is either mental illness or stupidity, the feat of those making money or buying influence with it becomes even greater. Because they are selling something that doesn't exist. And making millions of people pay for their version of that non-existent thing. Is that not genius?