Rabid Brexiteers and Remainers

But they get more exercise than us non-marchers.

True mouse

but they must live boring lifes.

I`d rather enjoy a drink and the company of a fellow gambler than someone who rabbitts on about politics.

Probably the only marches that aka hasn`t been on

I'd rather stand on a motorway flyover waving a saltire and shouting freedom at ever passing car.
A great day out for the children as well and not as tiring as marching.

As a remainer I can understand why BREXITeers are pissed off but it beggars belief that they are blaming TM.  She's tried her hardest to get BREXIT through and she's basically been blocked by Labour.  If you can't get a majority, it should be that the motion that gets the most votes is the deal that gets done.

It`s been blocked by her own Tory MPs and her DUP pals.

Theresa May is a clown. Worst PM ever. She is bringing it back for a 4th time Opposers will submit eventually or end up in a lunatic asylum

May has conducted a debate within the Tory Party and has not been interested in trying to reach a concensus with other parties.
Labour have essentially reacted to that.

Regardless of how one voted, she has made a once great country a laughing stock throughout the world.

There was never going to be a consensus.  There isn't one.  Not even Houdini could've reached one.

We are a laughing stock, but it's got far more to do with Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson than TM

Parliament has done that Mac by demanding that No Deal was taken off the table.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

and the public ofc, who are about as pragmatic as a scuba diver in The Sahara

True clydebank. The people with power were never going to let it happen and it never will.

There's almost certainly always been a concensus in the Commons for a "soft" Brexit. May was too interested in trying to cosy up to Smoggy and Co to even try.
Having said that Cameron was the main culprit in all of this. He hasn't been given the discredit he deserves.

I agree SS. Cameron to blame.

She's tried her hardest to get BREXIT through and she's basically been blocked by Labour

if there has been a more wrong political comment on here; i died a while back. She's been trying to derail brexit since Lancaster House & still human beings can't grasp it? I think i'll join mumsnet

Cameron getting blamed for putting the question to the electorate by posters who are saying we should have a second referendum and ask the electorate again. Yes I can see where you're coming from.

Where have I ever said we should have a 2nd referendum? Completely the opposite. Get yer facts right.

Cameron to blame for calling it in the first place thinking it had no chance of happening.

btw, before i join the mums with sense; watching her squirm on her front bench seat, has been the highlight of my political life. I hope she regrets the day she fell into the job til the day she can cook an omelette

There is a majority consensus that it isn't a no deal BREXIT, which TM's deal was, but there is no overall consensus on any version of it as all indicative votes failed

She us trying to derail it all right by trying to pass a deal where we leave in name but nothing changes.

ironically, no deal BREXIT is now fave (of all the different alternatives)

I agree with Bap. It`s great fun seeing the Tories **** up and lose all credibility around the world.

tmm there's very little support for no deal.  Had she played that card she'd have never got remotely close and you could genuinely argue that she let the country down

tmm there's very little support for no deal.  Had she played that card she'd have never got remotely close and you could genuinely argue that she let the country down

I also agree  with her deal little changes.  It's why remain is the sensible choice

They won`t let it happen clydebank, they will rebuke it. Brexiteers will be disgusted and rightly so, for at least a week or two, then everything will return to normal and we will all get on with our mundane existences

I agree with Bap. It`s great fun seeing the Tories **** up and lose all credibility around the world.

Doesn't say much for Corbyn and the Labour party who are currently 8 points behind the Tories in the polls.

A properly run and established centrist party would wipe the floor atm.  However bad the Tories currently are, they are also up against the weakest opponents in my lifetime

Not a single membe rof the Shadow Cabinet with any business experience AFAIK, as no one with any business experience could ever support such a cleless leadership.

We have had all that crap before with the "Gang Of Four" and look how that ended up. England is a two party state (Labour/Tory) and always will be.

I came to the conclusion when reading their bios that actually Diane Abbott is the intellectual heavyweight amongst them

It won't be much longer imo.  BREXIT anger will see to that

Wasn't Diane a PR advisor to Ratners?

Could you even imagine Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell and Seamus Milne entering into trade talks with Donald Trump and his team?  Numpties against sharks.  Although tbh given Trumps support of Israel and Milne's hatred of it, together with wildly opposite political ideologies, we'd prolly end up with no deal and huge tariffs

John Snow on Channel 4 news an hour ago ...... "There are white people everywhere" . He really sounded quite shocked

He'd send Foreign sec Abbott to baffle Trump's even smaller brain.

Dominic Raab said just after he left his position in his first interview, that the EU/Barnier wanted/ackonweldged that a short Backstop arrangement would be necessary and that's what he was negotiating with them but May stepped in and removed the time-limited backstop instead - and it's the backstop which has been the downful of Brexit altogether and May, Rees-Mogg and other ERG members said they didn't like parts of her deal but could live with it if it were not for the backstop, which would leave Britain in a non existent negotiating positon.

May is completely at fault along with her Brexit adivisor Olly Robbins - how can you have a Brexit government where the Prime Minister is a Reaminer and her backseat driver is also a Remainer? Then you have Hunt in the cabinet who says he now wants leave but is a soft leaver. A customs union if you're all being honest is not really Brexit and neither is the indefinite backstop.

Boris and JRM are not to blame though I see their game, voted for the deal 3rd time in order to get rid of May and then pick the deal apart after she announced she'd leave if it went through. As fairly high profile figures they are they've never had any real sway over voting.

There should simply be another vote now, now that everyone knows how the land lies 3 years later, Remain, Leave with May's deal, Leave with no deal. And then that's it and we can all get on with out lives because most now are just past caring.

The problem though is defined withing s_h. That Brexit wasn't defined, that was the madness from the off, and why Brexit will fail whatever happens from here. You have allowed people to interpret it how they wanted to, and they will blame it not work on the implementation as a result. It will be it will have worked if it was done my way.

This is made worse by what imo the 2 key reasons people voted Brexit:

#1 Immigration, a number who voted for this reason thought it would mean the foreigners leaving which it won't, but they also will likely be even more upset when they realise their vote is going to directly lead to an increase in non-EU immigration, as for the types of people who voted this reason they see that as worse than EU immigration.

#2 The idea of taking back control. The problem here is this is just a sound bite, for 99% of people it's not something tangible, the average person will see zero material benefit from this.

Remaim - Leave with the deal on offer - Leave with No deal.
If they were the options how would you decide the winner?
Remain to my mind would have to beat both other votes combined otherwise we go with the greaer of the 2 leave options.
That would have to be a guaranteed by parliament.

Also think Boris and JRM have done more damage to themselves than good. Them voted for something they knew would lose anyway that they have spent the last few months describing as a slave state. It's not a good look for zero gain politically. On top of all that this is a deal that is not supported by the majority who voted leave in the first place, so they aren't even representing the people they claim to represent anymore.

I was actually somewhat surprised today when it was obvious it would still lose that JRM and Boris didn't switch back as they'd never really nailed themselves to voting for it before, there was always get out clauses and I was expecting them to use them so they weren't attached to what was a sure fire loser.

The most popular motion in the house was arguably the one put forward by Kenneth Clarke, rather than TM's deal

The other big mistake I think the leave MPs have made, and again surprise JRM and Boris have fallen into this trap. Is they have now just added more fuel to the leave vote being divided. If the leave MPs operated as a unit like the remainers have it would have been a much better look for them as having a unified position. This collapse in them now supporting something many said was worse than remain a few months ago just makes it look they are unprincipled stereotype politicians in it for their political career. The real damage though is it now comes an even tougher sell that "leave definitely voted for this", as they have made themselves look divided on what leave means.

The idea of May's deal being most popular because it got most votes is baloney anyway in sense of she's had 3 highly pushed votes, which she's whipped her largest party behind all 3 times, and still lost all 3. In normal times the PM's position would have been untenable after the first vote, and she's survived 3 of these, and perhaps a 4th is coming next week.

If you just gave a free vote to everyone in the house of commons I don't believe for a second that May's deal would come out on top, most the Tories voting it are either doing to spite their face or on the government payroll which is like half the Tory MPs. The fact it has failed 3 times in these conditions tells you just how unpopular the deal is.

With a referendum at 3.15 and no deal at 3.55, a deal is still favourite.

@ n88uk. I would dispute that.
In respect of immigration the definition was of taking back control of our borders and limiting the numbers entering the UK.
It had nothing to do with expelling anyone.
Saying it would actually lead to more immigration is just not true and I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.
In the lead up to the referendum every politician was asked if leaving meant leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union and they all replied that it would. The pamphlet that was sent to every household also confirmed this.
So people voted with those 3 things in mind.

Mr Clarke’s customs union motion was narrowly defeated by 271 votes to 265 votes on Wednesday, with 34 Tory MPs joining Labour MPs and voting in favour.

Although you've got to be an idiot not to realise that Mr Calrke's custom union is much closer to remain than it is to no deal.  It's my preferred deal because it's the least bad option.

I agree most realised that akabula, but I have seen good numbers of people on TV in the last few years who literally thought it meant getting the foreigners out so these people exist in some number. And like I say I think the other people will be disappointed anyway as you will just get a spike in non-EU immigration instead. The immigration reason in itself is a sensitive topic, as you have some people who literally just want immigration to be cut but it's fair to say there's a good number of plain racists who voted for this reason hiding behind numbers who will end up gaining nothing from the end result.

Also I didn't say it will lead to more overall immigration, it will lead to more non-EU immigration, this is already happening as EU immigration has fallen, non-EU immigration has gone up, it will increase even more after Brexit.

And you can't ever have expected TM to support that, as it's clearly not what her party want or really BREXIT

On the last part the thing is I doubt most voters on either side even knew what those two things meant. Maybe they'd understand the single market as it's more obvious, but even now I guarantee a good number have no idea what a or the customs union is.

I mean ffs next week we've got MPs getting a lecture on the customs union and what it entails.

The referendum like most votes was won on a few quick sound bites rather than bogged down in policy like that.

I wouldn't touch the referendum market with a barge pole here. It's by 2020, there has to be a good chance if it is happens it won't happen until 2020 so no would win anyway here. I'm not sure if the odds are already taking this into account though as not seen prices elsewhere on like by 2021.

75% of mp's thereabouts voted Remain including Ken Clarke who put forward the Custom Union option so it's no surprise it garnered a lot of support, a customs union as per May's Mansion house speech, could not be apart of any true Brexit.


Should be a referedum held this summer.

If Brexit happens with no deal/no more freedom of movement of people, then what will actually happen in time is businesses will put pressure on government to open the doors wider and further for those from the commonwealth countries to fill the inevitable gaps left, as they wont want to pay more in wages to Brits.

The only way you will get no deal is by accident and tbh even then I think parliament votes to revoke before it allows no deal to happen. Tbh those that wanted no deal should have pushed for a 2nd ref on it ages ago, but of course they wouldn't as they can't really countenance supporting a 2nd ref, but if that's what you want you're just highly unlikely to get it any other way.

Which is one of the problems of Brexit, that ultimately pretty sure we will get a fudge one way or another. Politicians are trying to play the game of playing the middle ground that just leaves both sides pissed off if anything.

Didn't Boris say "there is no way we will leave without a deal when he was campaigning"  There was plenty of BS and lies from the likes of Nigel Farage.

It's why May's deal has to fail for both sides really. If May's deal blackmails it's way through in the end it will leave the country massively divided for a generation, leaving everyone feeling betrayed and almost certainly leaving us worse off.

This idea from Boris that you will just be able to tear it up is bs. We gave away that as our card ages ago from Gove, that's why the EU have insisted on the backstop and the likes as they know this was the initial plan, and now Boris is coming back to it as his save face card for backing the deal. In reality this will be impossible.

People won't realise just how bad May's deal is until it happens but put simply there is no way the UK can get a good deal out of it. I've argued all along our bargaining position was poor but in May's deal it's literally zero, we are stuck in limbo at the EU's mercy until we agree a deal, why on earth will we get anything on our terms, it will be the EU give us these terms, take it or leave it, and we say no we're gonna do what exactly?

There certainly was a lot of misinformation which I'm sure not all was deliberate.
For out and out lies this takes some beating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLEIbC4JYgs

The country will be divided no matter what.

Yes but the government have managed to piss both sides off.

tbh the only way it might not be divided is if we have another referendum and vote leave again

The thing is I often see Tories talking about healing the divisions in the country is why this deal needs to go through. It's way, way too late for that. Their total mess has increased the divisions, because it just looks chaos and a total lack of leadership (because it is of course). If Tory's had forged a plan early on that would work for the house, it might not have been to everyone's delight but you would have given an idea of direction that would have allowed people to move on, instead they've allowed attitudes to fester for 3 years which has led to a hardening of attitudes. The idea of no deal and revocation would have been laughable 2 years ago, now that's what this government has driven people to with their incompetence.

I think you'll find that Labour have pissed off just as many people when it comes to an election

What the Tories really mean of course by that is heal the problems in the Tory party, because voting this deal through will not heal the problems amongst the people.

I think no BREXIT was a bigger price after the referendum than it is now, or at least a similar price.  It was someat like 5/2 that article 50 would never be triggered in the first place?

Er Labour haven't been in power though. With Labour I imagine the issue is have they done over enough to win the remain vote, I'm not convinced but until an election and their manifesto you don't know. There is still a lot of questions for them.

An election will be fought on Brexit if it happens, however the general election process goes beyond that. Labour have a lot of extreme seats at both ends, however most the heavy Labour leave seats are the Labour heartlands which have no chance of turning blue. People might have voted leave, but there's no chance these types vote Tory as they despise them. A lot of the battlegrounds are actually remain areas in the likes of London which will be interesting and again will make what the Conservatives choose to do highly interesting. I'm not sure Labour have done enough to necessarily win these areas, but if Conservatives lose them it could still lead to Labour coming to power anyway.

Can't remember original prices now. It's amazing in hindsight how little a deal was made from us triggering Article 50 without even the hint of an idea of an exit plan at the time. Triggering Article 50 with no plan was absolute madness.

The key to an election will be when it is and who loses votes to who?  Both main parties will lose votes?  Will remainers switch to the LDs or a new party?  We'll see plenty switching to the BREXI party if it hasn't happened, but will they Labour BREXITeers or Tory ones?  There are much more Tory leavers than Labour ones, but Labour clearly don't want BREXIT so a bigger portion of them will switch.

She triggered A50 because she wanted to take it off the table before the GE.

The vote to revoke article 50 had 75% of MPs in favour.
Deduct the SNP who vote against everything then the majority of Labour MPs voted for it.
Why no demand for clarity then? Makes no sense.

It's because at the time it was just viewed as getting the ball rolling, back then the idea we wouldn't get a deal was laughed off.

Sorry invoke article 50.

The rhetoric at the time was that once A50 was triggered that's it there is no going back.  Personally, I was going to vote LD had she not triggered it, but I lost the motivation to do that once she triggered it.  Was pointless anyway really because it was always a safe Tory seat, and I certainly wasn't going to vote Labour

Tbh I can't even remember the media on it at the time but is amazing in hindsight not much of a deal was made of what we were actually doing. We seemingly invoked Article 50 and it took us over a year after that to even come up with an idea of how we would leave, absolute madness.

I don't think anyone including the political commentators saw this as anything more than the first step in the process.
The importance of it in terms of starting the clock ticking was lost.
I have to be honest in all this, I saw TM as the best person to take us forward despite her being a remainer.

Maybe she was.  She was neutral really rather than a remainer so was meant to pull both sides of the party together.  She might have made mistakes, but so might anybody, and I do feel she did her absolute hardest to get a deal done.