We're being stitched up on Brexit

No intention at all of abiding by the referendum result.

Never thought of it this way but sounds about right

Hard not to think like that given how May seems unworried by her current predicament.

Will be interesting if Spain do throw a spanner in the works

The so called 'negotiations' of the past eighteen months were so weak on the UK's behalf the real agenda is obvious. Any decent negotiator worth the title would have played hardball and secured us a great deal months ago.

Spain can vote against it Dan but they can't veto it as our press first reported.
DUP won't accept it, the SNP and LibDems will vote against as will quite a few of her own party leaving her only hope rebels in the Labour party.
I think you'd get long odds on that.

We're fooked

David Davis or Dominic Raab probably could have got a decent deal but were not allowed to. Look how May has gone from "Brexit means Brexit" and "no deal is better than a bad deal" to now saying "my deal or no Brexit."

we all know their will be controlled 2nd vote.

I don't think May wants to win the vote.

not aftertiming iv'e said this from day 1-NOTHING MUCH WILL CHANGE.

like mays "effort" in the last general election, tried her best to lose,could not have run a worse campaign if they tried.

At what cost if we remain in the EU?
A bill for all their costs is a certainty and our rebate either kicked into touch or dramatically lowered.
Be in a worse position.

the damage was done when she signed article 50. She knew exactly what she was doing. We should have just left; with a middle finger pointing straight across the channel

Paying for tax free pensions of MEP's is mental, we will have to pay for their decisions via tax.

Ibrahima Sonko • November 21, 2018 10:54 PM GMT
we all know their will be controlled 2nd vote.

I've believed all along that a 2nd vote would return a different result to the original referendum . I am certain that the majority of votes cast would still be in favour of leaving the EU , but they would simply declare the result that they wanted all along . Electoral fraud is not limited to third world dictatorships .

tories will be destroyed at the next election. struggling to see why so many backbenchers especially those in marginal seats so happy to go down this route

The fact the Tories don't seem to mind if they deliver a Corbyn government tells you a lot. They know:

If we leave the EU we're out for good

If we give them Corbyn we'll be back in no time

And the Great British public fall for it every time

The noises I'm hearing about Spain + France re fishing + Spain over Gibraltar = **** off.

I'm starting to get very angry and I was originally only about 60/40 leave. God knows how angry fervent leavers will be gettingh at this BULLSH!T.

We'll have the Euro within 5 years

Its been a hoax from the start,bloody woman should go down in history as kick out and shamed but no the papers say she is a good woman put in a differcult place,what a load of monumental b0llocks

I cannot believe she's getting away with it

Where are the so called "hard brexiteers"?

Nov 21, 2018 -- 10:53PM, Torquemada wrote:

David Davis or Dominic Raab probably could have got a decent deal but were not allowed to. Look how May has gone from "Brexit means Brexit" and "no deal is better than a bad deal" to now saying "my deal or no Brexit."

She should have never been allowed to do this in the first place

I honestly believe they lost the majority on purpose (mays performance was so bad in that election campaign it was obvious now) so as to weaken our hand

Its been the most disgusting stitch up in history

She loses the majority = nothing happens, loses brexit secs on a 6 month cycle = nothing happens, looks pethetic when with top EU officials = nothing happens, comes up with the most pathetic deal ever and loses most of her party's backing yet nothing happens.

Cameron, Blair, Brown, Major etc all got smashed in the media for their ball dropping, yet May is standing tall and looking strong

Its disgusting

Good grief, we're into some full on X-Files conspiracy nonsense now

Socially and politically, we are well beyond what kind of a Brexit deal we will get.

It's now a question of what the outcome of this deal will be.

If May gets her deal through, it'll be presented as an 'emperors new clothes' triumph of her stubbornness and political will. The fact that it was neither of these is irrelevant. It's kicking a problem down the road for future governments to deal with and still leaves us divided as a nation, with everyone feeling betrayed.

If May doesn't get her deal through, then an easy option would be for a third referendum (n.b not a second referendum or the risibly-named 'Peoples Vote'). At which point we really are into guesswork. What will the options be on the ballot paper. Can a return to the EU happen, Article 50 having been invoked? If so on what basis? That's before we get to the effect on social cohesion and one's investment in a democracy in name only (certainly I won't be voting in that referendum or any elections in the rest of my lifetime, since it has been clearly established that my vote doeasn't count in the face of big business and vested interests).

If we leave without a deal and revert to WTO, then project fear MkII will ramp up again (although I note Mark Carney has toned down the rhetoric now, saying the Wh0re of Threadneedle St is prepared for such a scenario, as opposed to it being the end of the civilisation as he was predicting a year ago). How long we are allowed to trade within WTO rules and how prepared we are to 'take back control' and develop a coherent, forward and outward looking business and social strategy outside of the EU, depends very much on the balls, vision and competence of our politicians - and I'm not too optimistic on that score.

Even if we "leave" her deal means we still pay the money,thats billions with nothing in return

The one thing the deal guarantees  - is the reemergence of UKIP, which ironically, where the party that spawned a referendum vote in the first place.

slowly asphyxiated by a woman is a bad way to go. What you are watching now is a drip by drip loss of sovereignty and territorial integrity; even the Spanish are now after a strip of flesh. Sad to see, and even sadder that a fight isn't being put up by the cowards of Westminster

This is what UKIP wanted though. They never thought they could win. They wanted to mimic the SNP: - come a close second in the referendum and use it as a springboard to break cover and become mainstream. Fact is they panicked when that didn't happen. Farage legged it straight away and they were the dictionary definition of shambles after that.

At least Hanx has realised that his vote has counted for nothing....never has and never will do. The sooner people realise that it's big business that runs politics, the better. Ultimately, they are the ones that make the laws, it's the politicians who place them. So with that in mind, we leave without a deal, which means that EU countries can't trade with us. Well that won't last, how long will the German government last when Audi, Bmw, Volkswagen can't sell their cars? Citroen in France the same, Spanish hoteliers when they've realised that there are a few other countries that have warm weather for Brits to go to. Greece and Italy are skint and the rest of the Mickey Mouse countries offer nothing but take everything..and as for Ireland and its border, just build a wall and for all I care give Gibraltar to Spain, fugg all there anyway except for a few monkeys.

Nov 22, 2018 -- 11:49AM, PorcupineorPineapple wrote:

This is what UKIP wanted though. They never thought they could win. They wanted to mimic the SNP: - come a close second in the referendum and use it as a springboard to break cover and become mainstream. Fact is they panicked when that didn't happen. Farage legged it straight away and they were the dictionary definition of shambles after that.

'This is what UKIP wanted' (to win?) / 'They wanted to come a close second'

Eh?

You're right that UKIP have been a shambles and what's left of them are now being invited to 'do a (right wing) Momentum' and join the Conservative party with a view to deselecting pro-Remain Tory MP's. Good luck with that project (sarcasm).

As for Farage he's nothing more than a totemic 'Brexit Bogeyman' for Remainers, who's never had any real power.

here lies the problems, you have a government minister telling a business man his business (on politics live)

no businessmen involved in negotiations  - they are ALL politicos out for themselves and advancement of careeers - think of the book deals there will be after all this

I think the over involvement of 'business' in  Brexit has been 90% of the problem

Ever since the referendum result was known, the question has been largely about trade with a little bit of immigration cheese on top.

Unfortunately all you "trade experts" suddenly come out of the wood work and blather on endlessly, which incidentally is exactly what the globalist wanted, you’ve been effortlessly shifted onto accepting their rules of the game.

The Brexit result was when the people finally woke up to the fact their lives are controlled by a bunch of globalists who couldn't care less about our democracy or national sovereignty. Soros, Blair, the CBI, BoE, hand in glove with global business all of them people or organisations dedicated to the destruction of our national sovereignty, and that of other countries.

The global trade regime has been created to make it as easy as possible for the biggest investors and global corporations to write the rules, (incidentally if you look at America and NAFTA you'll find exactly the same arguments put forward for leaving that organisation - a lack of sovereignty, an undemocratic structure, and to much control by corporate/ banker interest).

So Brexit wasn't about leaving the EU it should have been about reestablishing global national sovereignty, not simply trying to get a better deal for the UK, because the simple truth is those who want to turn back Brexit are also the very same people who also control the global economy, therefore Brexit never made any sense.

We live in a globalised world controlled by powerful banking and financial interest they don't want us to upset the apple cart, so Brexit will finally be their victory not ours, because as soon as we started blathering about trade and not sovereignty we'd already lost

LATEST FROM THE HEAD OF THE EU

Mrs Merkel, who last month announced she was controversially stepping down as leader of her party but not as Chancellor of Germany despite previously saying the two roles go hand in glove, said ceding power to a superstate is a better form of patriotism.

She told the event, titled ‘Parliamentarianism Between Globalisation and National Sovereignty’: "In this day nation states must today - should today, I say - be ready to give up sovereignty.

With macron in the wings backing her to the hilt

and you wonder why people want to leave!!!

Merkel also said in 2010 that "multiculturism has utterly failed" and then a few years later invites 1 million people from hugely alien cultures to pitch up to her country, leading to massive internal turmoil.

That idiot is not exactly new at fundamentally contradicting herself.

LOL porcupine says that the idea that May the remoaner is trying to deliberately sabotage brexit while minimising damage to her party is a "conspiracy", (when it totally stands up if you think about her actions to date), then 20 minutes laters posts the total mentalist "conspiracy" that UKIP didn't actually want to leave the EU they just wanted a political career.

I find it perplexing that she's telling us all its what we want

Don't we or her party or Labour etc get a say in this ?

"its my way or the high way"

Tell her to f*** off

Indeed Hanx.

Today's older generation voted for the Common Market (Trade). For 40 years they've watched the CM morph into a giant superstate intent on the removal of national identity.

And guess what, the older generation (yup, the ones 'blamed' for Brexit) said, no thanks, not what we voted for.

How DID it get from "no deal is better than a bad deal" to "my deal or no brexit"? She should be hammered if she goes with that.

Question: Given that we've activated article 50, if parliament can't decide anything as Labour and the SNP etc are being dicks for their own political reasons .. do we just leave anyway UNLESS May stops it?

I don't think I've seen this explained. To me, that must be what'll happen. The train is in motion down the hill, squabbling won't change it, the procedure is activated and the EU don't care about our internal arguments.

what other group believe in submission  - merkel tells nations to submit - interesting ?  and she let in over a million more of them did she not?

The Suns front page tomorrow reads - BLACK FRIMAY. £39,000,000,000 for diddly squat

Very frustrating to see this charade play out. The majority who voted for Brexit are being betrayed.

39 billion to basically remain in the EU

And she'd running round saying its a great day and how optimistic she is

She's a disgrace imo, and the fact no one in her party is even doing a thing is pretty pathetic

May giving the middle finger to Brexit voters with a big on her face

big grin

being on kissing terms with the eu fascists I am not surprised

lets be fair if the cabinet were allowed a free vote and the lemmings in the tory party could think vote for themselves this deal wouldn't get through the tory party never mind the commons

sent out on a sundAy to defend it the best hunt could come up with, is the deal could be used as a staging post to something else. the deputy pm linnington has been telling cabinet they could just rip up backstop agreement and dare the EU TO TAKE US TO COURT, gove told cabinet he,s worried about running out of water, ffs we,re an island who spend most of our lives been flooded, these torys need ditching and quick

Macron has said they will force us into the backstop if they don't get their way on fishing rights. He also appeared to be saying that May wanted to stay in CU. Well there's a surprise. (see Nick Gutteridge twitter thread).

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge

400 years ago treasonous people were hanged in public...  Fortunately those days have long gone.

The Queen must be wondering what kind of MP's do I have running this country.

The sterling is in real trouble now.

revenge is a dish best served cold

the queen cant wait for treason may to turn up at the palace to say she cant form a government, the queens got her answer ready

didn't stop you last time I asked you you lying bitch

I would like to see the French text of his speech but have been unable to locate it yet. If Macron wishes to use the backstop as leverage then others won't overlook this opportunity either.

of course foinavon spain already on the case ,macron,may had been forwarned but is just a fooooking ejittt

hoping for No Deal plus plus.

Nov 25, 2018 -- 3:53PM, 1st time poster wrote:

sent out on a sundAy to defend it the best hunt could come up with, is the deal could be used as a staging post to something else. the deputy pm linnington has been telling cabinet they could just rip up backstop agreement and dare the EU TO TAKE US TO COURT, gove told cabinet he,s worried about running out of water, ffs we,re an island who spend most of our lives been flooded, these torys need ditching and quick

We are an island that has no water?

The EU want the water as well do they Gove?, so they are sending in the EU to bottle the s****y water up as well then. And he's all for leaving as well

What an absolute s*** show

She seems really desperate, she keeps talking to and mentioning 'the British Public' lately, but that's no good at this stage anymore, there's nothing they can do about it so it seems to me she's resigned to the fact mp's will not vote for it so in an act of desperation it's like she's trying to lean on the public so they can lean on thier mp's to change their minds lol, cloud cukoo land.

if she,d got a large majority in the election she,d be now about to unleash a no deal on the public she pretends to care about,
held an election for her own sake to get a huge majority to press a head with a hard Brexit
lost then it was no deal is better than a bad deal
then it was no deal is a calamity
then it was her deal or no brexit
now we,ve landed on any deal is better than no deal or no brexit
only question she should be asking the public after her shambles is when would you like me to foook off

Talking about the Queen,anybody heard her views on this old b0llocks?

I think regards Brexit she's doing the best she can. However she is in this position due to her own making. While I feel sorry for her now she ran the worst election campaign of all time. 1. Fox hunting............why ? 8 out of 10 people are against it. Secondly the so called Dementia tax, personally didn't think it was a bad idea but why oh why upset your core voters during an election ! Had she not ran such a p1ss poor campaign she could of steam rollered them through with a large majority. She also helped Corbyn get to where he is now, the British love an underdog so as it was supposedly such a foregone conclusion people bored Labour not thinking they had a chance. If there was an election I still think the Tories would win. I don't think this country will ever be ready for a left wing government.

And therein lies the problem, people thinking that their votes count... Never has..never will.

Whatever the final outcome is, GB will be governed by Europe and the banks, no matter left or right...it's all a game.

Think it was mark Twain who said... If voting counted for anything, it would have been abolished years ago.

"A no deal is better than a bad deal": I think this was only to exert some pressure on The EU. Imagine Mrs May saying a bad deal is better than a no deal; that would guarantee a worse deal than present (perceived by remoaners/uber leavers).

I've always had more than an inkling The EU would play hard-ball with us; Spain and Macron in the last couple of days have brought up the issue of sovereignty on Gibraltar and fishing rights respectively just before sign-off. A pure coincidence? Hardly unlikely I say. Can anyone remember the French doing us a good deed recently?

No, Arsenal were stuck with Wenger for 10 years longer than they needed him, he just wouldn't go

ufcdan ^ agree with your comments, and that is why I would never trust anything Theresa May says, she has made too many mistakes, and way out of her depth. Such a mess, and she has failed to get us something worthwhile, simple as that !

I'm planning on living forever, just to see Tony Blair go up against a war crimes tribunal in The Hague and Theresa May be indicted for treason.

Same here, Mr Blair "blanked" of a knighthood in his life time is not sufficient punishment given the gravity of his crime in cahoot with Bush on Iraq. I'd also like to see confiscation of monies earned from "speeches and positions" in City entities as a direct result of his political career post Prime-Ministership.