Brexit (if 2nd referendum)

farage would vote to remain in a 2nd referendum.

Do we even know what the question on the ballot paper will be?

It was very straightforward last time (Google it to get the exact wording), yet somehow we've been told we didn't understand what we were voting for in a binary question.

If it happens again, it'll be the biggest clusterfk imaginable.

There' will be all sorts of issues surrounding how many options we have, the wording of those options, the potential for splitting of either 'sides' vote - and if we didn't know what we were voting for last time, then sure as God made little green apples, we won't know this time ('Return to the EU? - Sure but assuming Article 50 can be revoked, it won't be on old terms. The UK has been a perpetual thorn in the side of the EU so you can be t your life the terms of return would be punitive - my guess is adopting the Euro as our currency for starters).

....and of course, any return to membership of the EU is NOT a return to the status quo. We would be aligning ourselves fully with 'the country (sorry, 'Empire') of Europe' and all that entails

Just don't think there's going to be a second vote. The supporters have given it their best shot but there just isn't enough support for it.

If you're going to have the vote, it can only be two way. You can't have a three way vote, with the "winner" getting 35% of the public's support.

Therefore you have to choose which one to leave off: accept the current deal; go to WTO; stay in the EU?

If it's the latter, then all the campaigners' work will have been for nothing. If it's one of the other two then there are just endless shouts of sabotage, anti-democracy etc.

Just can't work.

No point in a second referendum.

If May, big business, the banks, the majority of MPs and the civil service want us to remain in the EU they should just cancel A50 and do it. They need to admit they do not trust the people to make the decision and remove the illusion of democracy in the UK.

If there is a second ref and the 'people' vote to leave again we will be back to square one with all the above still trying to stop it or water it down.

If there is a second ref and the 'people' vote to remain Brexit will be cancelled but the leavers will ask for a third vote to decide it.

PP there is nothing to vote for in terms of future relationship with the EU.

All we have before we leave is the withdrawl agreement and fudge on the future with nothing really changing in the short term. Trade trade talks will evolve in the years after.

I suppose down the line you could have a ref on if we wanted to join the EEA or not. But this would be after we have left the EU and still in transition.

I reckon there will be a clamour further down the line for us to re-join but that will be a separate matter and I'd imagine neither May nor Corbyn would be leading their parties by then.

If we could get 100% clarification with the EEA we can end free movement of people/workers, pay very little and do our own trade deals I think people could vote for it.

If a second referendum was announced, there would be anarchy, the government have been warned about this.

Nov 5, 2018 -- 9:15AM, PorcupineorPineapple wrote:

Just don't think there's going to be a second vote. The supporters have given it their best shot but there just isn't enough support for it. If you're going to have the vote, it can only be two way. You can't have a three way vote, with the "winner" getting 35% of the public's support.Therefore you have to choose which one to leave off: accept the current deal; go to WTO; stay in the EU?If it's the latter, then all the campaigners' work will have been for nothing. If it's one of the other two then there are just endless shouts of sabotage, anti-democracy etc.Just can't work.

Or they could of course ask 'Implement what we asked you to do the first time around'.

Nov 5, 2018 -- 9:27AM, PorcupineorPineapple wrote:

I reckon there will be a clamour further down the line for us to re-join but that will be a separate matter and I'd imagine neither May nor Corbyn would be leading their parties by then.

A perfectly reasonable reaction - after all, that is why we had the second referendum 40-plus years after the first one.

We should however, be allowed to implement a true Brexit, as voted for and see how this pans out, rather than bend to the will of a gobby minority who think they can see into the future and who do not believe in Britain.

Hanx - I'm not getting dragged into "what did the ballot slip say". Not today. Not arguing the merits of their case (think it's a terrible idea personally) just talking about the mechanics of it if it came to pass.


Again, I'm just saying I think the referendum to re-join will happen and quite soon. Brexit isn't going away for a long time. Every bit of bad news will be magnified as a direct consequence of the vote and "it'd be so much better if we were in". You'll have a lot of young voters who'll feel they'd like to re-join and party politics dictates that one party (Labour probs) will offer it on their manifesto in order to secure their votes.

Fair enough P or P. I think there's nothing more fundamental to the whole issue than what it says on the ballot paper, personally.

Given most politicians are lazy (not to mention venal and grasping) I'd say you are probably correct. A second referendum would be an easy option for everyone, rather than them actually having to deliver what has already been mandated.

Of course, we then get into the territory I outlined previously, so far from dealing with the schisms in our society, this will exacerbate them still further - another issue that Remainers never address in their push for a second (well, third) referendum

i don't see how they can have another yes/no referendum. the only question would be on any agreed deal and that deal, as most are,
won't be fully agreed until late in the day.
comments like "a true brexit" don't really mean much as there was no properly defined version of it pre vote, and there still isn't.

Wallflower
05 Nov 18 02:34
Joined: 01 Nov 04 | Topic/replies: 5,996 | Blogger: Wallflower's blog
There may or may not be another referendum - I dont care either way.

Though a lot of rubbish written and spoken about a second referendum being undemocratic.

I still think it is. People were told they would offered one referendum, in which to decide whether we leave the eu or remain in the eu.

Not a series of referendums until people voted the way the government wants.

If the Government thought it was that bad to leave , they not have held a referendum in the first place!

I never voted because I thought we would remain and it was done and dusted....I got the shock of my life when it was announced that we would be leaving.....So if we could have a second referendum I would be down like a shot to vote remain.

I believe to think that most people who voted to leave voted so without knowing the consequences, and were hoodwinked by Boris's claim £350m per week re-routed our way was bunkum, and totally disrespectful to those who voted after careful consideration and thought - the majority were voting for self-autonomy, and not some faceless un-elected bureaucrats dishing out laws onto us usually to facilitate their own aims; those whose country's economies matched that of a principality eg Tusk and Juncker. As for the youngsters they could not care less with other democratic decision making events eg General Election, so why now? Also, they were probably in-bed despite being savvy with modern day PDAs.

I've been incensed and appalled by the treatment of our negotiators by their European counterparts (I do not even EU representatives given their lack of gravitas and experience/shame no Merkel); the EU were taking advantage of our disjointed team courtesy of defections and lack of support from within Britain eg Boris (talk, talk, talk and then scuppered to feather his own nest - not the country), Dominic Green (encase in private faux pas), etc.

There is no need for a 2nd Referendum - if so maybe a 3rd, and a 4th,...no ending; the country has spoken, and any who do not accept or agree with the vote could seek pastures new, and no one will hold it against them. Just get on with it,..if experiencing pain for a few years sobeit as I've not seen meaningful financial and economic decisions/inducements for Britain to remain; the annual membership remuneration to The EU has been colossal too.

I cannot see this ending given the status of the newbies members.

Farage has just been on the tv and he's given up. In fact i think he gave up 2 years ago. He reckons it's all done and dusted and there was no point in anything. He did say however he expects a "new" part arise from the ashes and threaten the status quo of British politics

party that should read

impossible - you may have seen my politics thread about EU bullying. I'm intrigued by this - "I've been incensed and appalled by the treatment of our negotiators by their European counterparts "


As per my thread, I'd love to hear of any direct examples of this treatment. All I've seen so far is our own politicians and press talking about bullying or treating us poorly but no-one yet has been able to provide any actual cases that aren't just second hand, passed on by a pro-brexit bod here.

Hopefully you can be the first.

I genuinely think the brexiteers are now hoping it falls apart and we stay in. Really do. It's a mess. It was always going to be bad but it's been mismanaged so it is even worse and it is publically terrible. They've finally gotten round to experts forensically examining the impacts and every one says it's a potential disaster.

If it comes to pass Farage, Banks, Johnson etc are tainted forever as selling us down the river to disaster.


If it collapses now though they can deflect the blame on to May/the EU/Remainers etc and still say it would have been great without ever being able to be proven wrong.

How about their hijacking of the agenda re 'money first then deal'?

How about their being the notion of a 'divorce bill' in the first place (you don't negotiate a bill - you pay it!) rather than it being a membership fee we are cancelling.

How about YOU giving the rest of us an itemised breakdown of how the £39 bn 'bill' was arrived at - I'm not talking about the craven acceptance by Theresa the Appeaser' I'm talking about how this figure was arrived at in the first place?

I've already outlined in great depth why the notion of the Irish Border question has been concocted by the EU (and once again, accepted without question by Theresa and her team of non-negotiators) rather than being thrown right back at them as it should have been

How about your and other Remainers refusal to accept that there is no precedent for a country and economy the size of the UK leaving a trading block and therefore requiring a whole new 'win-win' groupthink by all parties rather than falling back on artificial 'red lines' (NB IMO it was the assumption that we would be negotiating with a group who put the people, rather than the Project they represent first, that led many to think that negotiating a mutually beneficial Brexit would be very straightforward and easy).

I wonder what the employees and board of directors at, BMW  or French Wine Manufacturers are thinking of the way the EU has conducted negotiations? I bet they think the EU's approach has been vindictive and based largely on 'pour discourager les autres'

From the media I can easily detect and conclude the superiority complex exuding from the statements from interviews made by the EU rep - they were always dictating to us - and I do not respect these EU reps for a lack of gravitas and experience from their previous offices and economic significance of the countries they were from. Where were they when Britain were asked for colossal contributions year in, year out? Britain supported The Eu in times of crisis and the reciprocals had been few and far between - we had to fight for them too!

I agree and understand the standard of our politicians and their commitment have deteriorated (just look at the composition of the front benches of both parties) nevertheless, to treat the representatives of the 2nd most successful economic country in The EU by a couple of 3rd rate political individuals smack of disrespect and disdain to Britain. Where was Mrs Merkel? I respect Mrs Merkel - she's been there in good and difficult times; Tusk and Juncker are no-body in The EU, sorry but true; the combine economic influence of Luxembourg and Poland do not match that of Britain, full-stop!

Organ grinder please, but not political "moneys".

It’s a myth that if we had a second referendum and voted to remain that we could just go back to the way things were.

For a start we would lose our EU rebate and opt-out clauses and secondly, we would be treated with even more disdain then usual by the powers that be in the EU.

Thirdly, we would be seen as a laughing stock around the world.

Porcupine, I was a student of Politics many, many moons ago, but despite following the daily news keenly never wanting to be more involved as I can tend to get obsessed with it which I want to avoid. 

The rest of the politicians in The EU are keen to give Britain a hard time to sustain their belief and existence of The EU , but I'm fairly confident their constituents do not share their views, and given a chance of a referendum to exit The EU there could be a surprise install for these un-elected narcissistic EU bureaucrats.

All of a sudden the momentum for a deal has picked up immeasurably recently compare to just 3 months prior. Finally, better late than never The EU have accepted a British exit, come what may.

Britain is not for turning!

I think we already are, Gin

And another thing:

Last year, the OBR brought out a report forecasting future UK contributions to the EU.

By 2022, they forecast that the gross weekly contribution figure would amount to £427 Million (and the EU have already said that we would lose the rebate so that would be the real amount).

Stick that on your bus............................

I voted to leave but im not sure its going to happen now , but if there was a 2nd vote i still think i would vote to leave , but the whole thing has become a farce and a shambles

It was always the plan to make it a farce and a shambles. May has been wilfully useless and should have been kicked out long ago.

The Farage comments are intriguing. He seems to be hoping it all falls apart and the resulting anger is channelled into some
new populist party with i dare say him as founder & leader. Maybe I'm wrong, he wouldn't be that disingenuous would he???

the eu POLITICIANS have never liked us - we have always been the black sheep
we have, or did have, a tiny portion of the vote yet we made the 2nd largest contribution having no more say than poland??

we are the awkward squad and they tell us the eu can be reformed

I wonder when that would happened - it has been corrupt for over 40 years - why would france and germany want to change their privileged positions

the corrupt regime is run by germany with their money and ours

what on earth do we get out of it

Given that the "Brexiteers" have been noticeable by their absence and lack of vigour; whoever voted to leave must be scratching their chins and wondering what happened to the fight. No one has moved a flabby muscle against May, or anyone else. We kept hearing about "revolts" and 48 votes; but not s jot has happened. No protests, no marches of any significance, no placards outside The Commons, no kicking off on news slots. All a very damp squib. Was this all just smoke and mirrors?

How about their hijacking of the agenda re 'money first then deal'?

It wasn't hijacking at all. Both sides agreed on the process

How about their being the notion of a 'divorce bill' in the first place (you don't negotiate a bill - you pay it!) rather than it being a membership fee we are cancelling.

Again, both sides agreed. The size of the fee was complex as it was based on budgets of future projects and the UK's share of that

How about YOU giving the rest of us an itemised breakdown of how the £39 bn 'bill' was arrived at - I'm not talking about the craven acceptance by Theresa the Appeaser' I'm talking about how this figure was arrived at in the first place?

Surely that's our government's responsibility to share or not share the information. Fact is both sides agreed and shook hands on the figure.

I've already outlined in great depth why the notion of the Irish Border question has been concocted by the EU (and once again, accepted without question by Theresa and her team of non-negotiators) rather than being thrown right back at them as it should have been

Again, this was agreed a year ago. We agreed on the backstop. We have since reneged. The EU's or Ireland's stance has not changed a jot since then.

How about your and other Remainers refusal to accept that there is no precedent for a country and economy the size of the UK leaving a trading block and therefore requiring a whole new 'win-win' groupthink by all parties rather than falling back on artificial 'red lines' (NB IMO it was the assumption that we would be negotiating with a group who put the people, rather than the Project they represent first, that led many to think that negotiating a mutually beneficial Brexit would be very straightforward and easy).

Not really sure what you're getting at here to be honest. Are you blaming remainers or the EU here?

I wonder what the employees and board of directors at, BMW  or French Wine Manufacturers are thinking of the way the EU has conducted negotiations? I bet they think the EU's approach has been vindictive and based largely on 'pour discourager les autres'

You can easily search and find out. They're fully in support as it happens. But as it happens the notion of not encouraging others and the fact that our relationship and trading arrangement by very definition couldn't possibly be as good as a member state was known from the start. That's not bullying or punishment just simple facts that some cake have/eaters refused to acknowledge.

PorcupineorPineapple
05 Nov 18 15:54
Joined: 03 Dec 15
| Topic/replies: 6,361 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog
How about their hijacking of the agenda re 'money first then deal'?

It wasn't hijacking at all. Both sides agreed on the process

^

No Mrs May who is a remainer agreed to it.

No leader who wanted to leave the EU agreed to it.

That is your first mistake.

May sees Brexit as a damage limitation exercise.

Her goal appears to be to mess it up as much as possible by dithering so that the voters get fed up with it.

Ah well if all you've got to offer is 'both sides agreed on the process' then we can stop right there, since we are not on the same page whatsoever.

The process is demonstrably not fit for purpose, for a true Brexit. Simply repeating the phatic phrase 'both sides agreed on it' rather neatly (from your perspective) sidesteps the issue that our negotiators have done anything but negotiate from the start of the process.

How can it be with the deep state so thoroughly entrenched in running the show and as Baphomet has pointed out, the leading lights of the Leave Campaign supine and content to be 'sideline quarterbacks', rather than articulating a vision of that we can be outside the dead hand of the EU.

I agree that our trading relations with Europe cannot be as good as if we are a member state. This 'have your cake and eat it' is so much hot air. The question that is never articulated is what we could be with a fair trading arrangement with the EU (Canada with as many plusses as you like) with an ability to negotiate trade agreements, nimbly and with entrepreneurial flair, with other free nations?

"Surely that's our government's responsibility to share or not share the information".

I'l save you the bother since I genuinely enjoy your thoughts on all this and I'd hate to drive you to suicide!

Your embarkation point is " Commons briefing paper 8039 30.07.2018."

The key point is far less complicated. May has agreed that if we don't agree with whatever they want us to pay the ECJ will force us to pay it anyway. And, of course we will have no representative on the ECJ bench.

You have to remember we are dealing with the EU (Last annual loss to corruption estimated @ 900bn Euros, source Rand EU corruption loss - report commissioned by the EU Parliament). They wouldn't know where to begin an honest accounting exercise.

The EU is riddled with con tricks, which makes May so vulnerable re the Divorce Bill. She hopes to hide behind " A lot of it depends on outcomes", but would have to admit in reality she doesn't have the foggiest to the nearest Bn or two, how much it would cost.

Then, the icing on the EU cake is that she will let its political court decide how much we owe

IT - can't help but notice a tone of desperation in your writing that it's all been sabotaged by "remainers" now. I can start a new thread where you can list actual evidence of our government sabotaging this if you like. I suspect though it's another brexity fantasy to pretend this wasn't just a massive sh!tshow from the get go.


Hanx - fair enough we can stop. You carry on with your deep state conspiracy theories. As for leading lights being sidelined, she promoted Johnson to Foreign Sec, gave Davis the job of negotiating it, brought Gove back into Cabinet...other than asking Nige to replace the Number 10 cat I'd say she hardly closed the jobs off. Regarding trading arrangements, you're now speaking with the benefit of hindsight. We've wasted so much time on the idea of us dictating terms, of having deals in place across the world by now, of us directly talking to EU member states. Fact is, our government hasn't had a clue and just spun you along. As it's slowly realised none of these things could be done they needed someone for the public to blame instead, hence where we are now.

If we want to negotiate with other nations we can, but by invoking Article 50 we automatically remove ourselves from existing deals and need to start again. Not punishment, simple facts. Then we need to negotiate. Maybe you want to look at Australia. They're frankly not interested. More worried about damaging their relationship with the EU, and happy to hang on and see how desperate we get. Look at the US; they're desperate for us to untangle ourselves as the EU's standards are too high and they want to sell us their glow in the dark meat. Also, we walk out of one bureaucracy, straight into another. WTO rules state if we want to offer better terms to someone then we must offer them to the entire world.



The process is demonstrably not fit for purpose, for a true Brexit. - Agree with this though. Invoking Article 50 so soon, under pressure from Farage et al was the first great mistake. By starting the clock we weakened our position massively. For a proper brexit, where we remain intact at the end of it we need to do thorough planning and make sure we leave when we're actually ready. Buggered that one right up though.

re:16.20

This is getting Roswell level now.

no one likes us we dont care... come on you Lions

I voted yes and I would still vote yes out of principle. If there was a second referendum and the decision was reversed I'd have to take action. As I'm not longer fit enough to be a violent man I've thought of attacking my local Citroen and BMW dealerships pouring nitromous on the cars..........only trouble with that plan European regulations have taken all the good stuff out so it dosen't work anymore

it's the thought that counts dan.

No you misunderstand!

Johnson and Gove (Davis to a lesser extent, since he was making a decent fist of things IMO, until May went behind his back - yes I know, 'deep state conspiracy theory' no matter that it's true) and that twit Rees-Mogg. What have those three DONE, as opposed to pontificated about? I'm especially sick of JRM - I think he's just a media prat, happy to appear in his silly double-breasted suit, playing the old school bo11ocks. Farage is just the Remainer's bogeyman - no real power but a handy lightning rod for Remainer ire.

I disagree re invoking Article 50.

Imagine this scenario.

After the referendum result Cameron does NOT resign. Listening to the people on Brexit, he immediately invokes Article 50, tells the Civil Service to prepare for Brexit under WTO terms (therefor giving business some degree of certainty it apparently needs), says 'there is no divorce bill to pay', guaranteed the rights of EU citizens in the UK and dared the EU to do different and then offered to sit down with the EU, to discuss a better option for all, with NO 'red lines' from either side - but with the tactic of being able to approach individual EU member's leaders over the heads of Barnier, Junker, Tusk et al if the EU did not engage in mutuially beneficial dialogue.

Then he could have appointed a cross party Brexit Cabinet and really gone for it.

Imagine him at Davos articulating an open, creative, welcoming Britain, desperate to secure the very best of global talent, to produce the next Netflix, Google, Facebook (all American companies - I wonder why they are masters of the business universe whilst all Europe has come up with is Spotify?), Imagine him setting out the UK’s stall and urging global business to lobby the EU to engage constructively with these proposals, selling Brexit Britain as a great place to do business, setting out the opportunities that there will be once this country is outside the EU, instead of reaching into her back catalogue like May did, and scolded the technology companies.

Of course, this would take vision and cojones, but I guarantee a) we would be in a very different (and IMO better) place re Brexit than we are now b) we would be on the frot-foot regarding negotiastion with the EU and c) Cameron would have a politcal legacy worth something instead of, as of last week, coming off as an urbane, essentially useless dilettante casting around for 'one last big job'.

it's the thought that counts dan.

Cheers PP

I voted to Leave and would definitely do so again.
Even firmer on that now after the appalling way the europrats have treated us.

Unfortunately however I think we Leavers are about to be well & truly stuffed

I wonder what proportion of "foreigners" residing in The UK (not EU nationals) voted yes to "Brexit"? Could be significant having spoken to friends from that category.

Just get on with it; prepare for it, and it will be ok in the future. It's only The EU (a sick puppy) we are leaving, and not some up-and-coming merit warranted establishment.

PorcupineorPineapple
05 Nov 18 16:29
Joined: 03 Dec 15
| Topic/replies: 6,365 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog
IT - can't help but notice a tone of desperation in your writing that it's all been sabotaged by "remainers" now. I can start a new thread where you can list actual evidence of our government sabotaging this if you like.

^

I gave you the biggest example which was secretly planning the 'Chequers' deal cutting the Department for Exiting the European Union and the Cabinet completely out of its development. She then put it to the Cabinet with a simple sign or resign option.

How can May justify having the Department for Exiting the European Union if remain civil servants are doing their own thing in parallel behind closed doors answerable only to her? It brings back memories of Blair and Campbell working on the Iraq war stuff behind the scenes.

If the perception is that the EU has treated us badly; then there is really only one person to blame, and that's the leader of this country. The buck stops at the top. What all leavers should remember is the way they feel, they have been treated and take it to the ballot box next time. Wouldn't it be fitting if all cabinet ministers lost their constituencies. If May is not leader by that time you can be sure one of this Government will become leader.

Rico  dixi  andyl 11vk  would still vote leave

Yes and Yes.

Pwesonally if another vote i would not bother to vote again as it is against democracy
and would never vote again in any election apart from the next one where a vote for Tommy Robinson
out of spite or whichever leave candidate for the hell of it.
  That would be the problem because leavers would abandon party lines and vote for the leave mp or Ukip.

Baphornet
05 Nov 18 18:33
Joined: 02 Nov 18
| Topic/replies: 53 | Blogger: Baphornet's blog
If the perception is that the EU has treated us badly; then there is really only one person to blame, and that's the leader of this country. The buck stops at the top. What all leavers should remember is the way they feel, they have been treated and take it to the ballot box next time. Wouldn't it be fitting if all cabinet ministers lost their constituencies. If May is not leader by that time you can be sure one of this Government will become leader.

^

The other option is a Marxist who wants to stay in the Customs Union and whose party has not ruled out a 2nd Ref.

Conservatives who voted leave could just not vote, they don't have to vote Labour; thus hitting the Cabinet where it hurts. It still doesn't mean that Labour would get elected.

Also May wants to stay in the Customs Union as well. She could well me Marxist as well

Corbin with his lightweight front bench colleagues running the country? They are not even fit to run a Ftse company; it's akin to President Trump being the supremo of the USA for life. How revolting a thought? He'll definitely not have my vote despite I'm a voter of the party in the past.

You have to laugh at the leavers complaining about how the EU are treating us. Are you really that stupid? Letting the public vote on a matter of such importance was clearly a ridiculous idea.

Nov 5, 2018 -- 11:06PM, asparagus wrote:

You have to laugh at the leavers complaining about how the EU are treating us. Are you really that stupid? Letting the public vote on a matter of such importance was clearly a ridiculous idea.

Letting the public vote on a matter of such importance was clearly a ridiculous idea.

I'm wondering if you're being ironic or would like to have another look at that astonishing statement?

northanlite
05 Nov 18 15:37
Joined: 07 Jun 04 | Topic/replies: 12,195 | Blogger: northanlite's blog
The Farage comments are intriguing. He seems to be hoping it all falls apart and the resulting anger is channelled into some
new populist party with i dare say him as founder & leader. Maybe I'm wrong, he wouldn't be that disingenuous would he??


Nailed it.

You have to laugh at the leavers complaining about how the EU are treating us. Are you really that stupid? Letting the public vote on a matter of such importance was clearly a ridiculous idea.

Totally agree with this. If Brexit is financially disastrous, then the Government were stupid to give the public a chance to vote in favour, which could lead to the dismantling of our NHS. Note, I said IF here....

"Letting the public vote on a matter of such importance was clearly a ridiculous idea"

Really? Is that not what democracy is all about? The country belongs to the people, and the people make the country. As such, the people must be allowed a say which route their country embarks on eg to "remain" or to "leave"; the people chose to leave...by a small majority nevertheless, it was a majority.

If the decision results in an immediate (perceived) uncertain future by some political pundits sobeit; Britain have survived two wars and overcome many economic hurdles with aplomb. It could be painful initially but the future is encouraging because I believe The EU is a non-productive and non-efficient cartel which does not encourage and reward hard work, but stifles innovation and entrepreneurship with its endless red tape and bureaucracy.

if remain were to be included i wouldn't bother voting as we voted on this in 2016, if it were a vote on whether to accept the deal or to leave without a deal i would vote on this. On June the 24th 2016 i was really happy that the result of the referendum went the way that i voted but deep down knew we would never leave.

I believe, and I sincerely hope we are leaving for good, just the terms to be finalised. If The Labour Party renege on the outcome of the 2016 Referendum they will never have my vote again. Personally, leaving The EU is more important than allegiance to a political party.

2nd ref is the only way that a no deal hard brexit would go thru.

Respect the vote that Britain made 2 years ago ,  we voted to leave  and that should be the way forward , i hope that the Labour Leadership  who i think have been anti-eu most of their lives do not call for 2nd referendum

The Labour Party are so desperate to be in power - I sincerely hope not given the present lot of political lightweights on the Shadow Cabinet Bench. However, I also believe they would do whatever necessary to achieve that, and offering a 2nd Referendum as inducement to the public is pretty high on their list despite its leader and Shadow Chancellor are closet 'brexiteers', I firmly believe.

The integrity and respect of Britain will be shot to pieces if Britain renege on her decision to exit The EU at this stage.

A momentum for a 2nd Referendum especially from The Labour Party stooge Mr Starmer. If so, The labour Party will regret their decision for ever as droves and droves of their supporters including myself will desert them for good. I just want full autonomy for Britain and not dictated to by the un-elected bureaucrats of The EU especially representatives those from countries of moderate economic value/power eg Luxembourg and Poland to name two.

I voted remain, but in disgust of a second vote I would vote leave.

Everyone knew what we were votig for last time so there is no reason to re vote.

It really does all depend on what the options on the ballot paper are - and even then there will be no end of further questions to answer.

Remain in the EU? Can we? On what terms? Signing up to what future? This would NOT a vote for the status quo.

If anyone thinks a second referendum will be the end of the Brexit issue they've got another thing coming.

they have never been prepared for a NO vote and never been prepared for a no deal exit

both politicians and, especially, the civil service KNEW we would have a yes vote

so how did that turn out

now you see why it is such a mess - the idea of leave does not even enter their tiny EU biased brains
they have had TWO YEARS  - it is all about trying to crush dissent - to crush the Eu opposition
backed with eu propaganda and its money.
they blame everyone else but themselves

They even blame the voters for voting the wrong way

both sides talked bolox.the country voted to leave so its not hard lets just get out and move on

it's hard to understand the PM's attitude to this. We know she's stubborn, we know she's a 'remainer' we also know she hasn't got long left in power whatever happens. Now unless she has hidden files on all her government ministers; she also knows she has little chance of getting her Chequers betrayal through Parliament. The question is: why does she persist? Arrogance - bloody mindedness? Does she really want to drag her government and party down over this just for her own self-satisfaction?

She'll get ruined. and rightly so, she's a traitor

I think the repercussions from a u-turn to remain will be far more severe than to exit as The EU bureaucrats will put obstacles and odious conditions for us to stay eg financial penalties and the forfeit of our original status in The EU ie Britain will have no options but to accept; a brexit will at least allow Britain to manage our "own destiny" rather than dictated to the hawks in The EU for the foreseeable future.

The facial expressions of Mr Tusks disgust me every time he speaks negatively about Britain, a country many times more successful economically, financially and constitutionally.

Shame we haven't got someone like Farage to negotiate our exit. Thatcher would have eaten the EU alive

the words from barinierstormfuher about using the eu against recalcitrant nations and tusk's blathering about the 'brownshirts' his words!!   They sure sound like they want to start a war.   Funny  - I thought we were all one happy family in the eu.

simply - they do not like to even be questioned - let alone  ever changing their despicable monopoly of ideas.

sorry that should read about using an eu army against etc

I think a lot of remainers might now vote leave because of the attitude EU leaders and bureaucrats have shown towards the negotiations and towards the UK in general. They have tried to humiliate the UK.

what a far cry this is from what the brexiteers said would happen. in their minds the UK held all the cards and the EU would be coming to us with a begging bowl

That’s what they are doing

Last time I looked they wanted 40 billion off us

and the rest

ditch them - lets go free and swing  - swinging landan as was --

we have regular french markets and know one or two of the people who bring their delicious HUGE garlic over

they are doing their nuts

the Norman cbi is  incandescent -

2nd Vote for Norn Eire  90 % voted to stay that should sort the Border Problem

Europe must 'become an Empire' to rival China and the US, a French minister said yesterday.

Economics and Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire said the EU must project its power around the globe to promote peace and protect the environment.

He told German newspaper Handelsblatt: 'It's about Europe having to become an Empire, as China is.

What an absurd comparison, Europe and China? A fragmented multi-lingual and multi-culture inefficient organisation against a united China of unilingual, good work ethos, discipline and respect for one another, no chance.

I hope it is not the beginning of the (re-emergence) of Germany with a nationalistic dogma similar to the one responsible for the 2nd World War. It is concerning, but not totally surprising given the ever increasing authoritarian policies, behaviour and number of the EU bureaucrats.

if you think about who actually do at least try and stand up to Germany sorry the EU; it is 4 or 5 countries that have never forgiven them really for what happened in that war. The French don't count because they capitulated and are now Germanys greatest ally.

they were in the war also  remember Vichy  and what happened to trade unionists jews etc etc  hundreds of thousands of them

total support and now look at the drum banging going on   macron, barniersturmfuhrer, tusk(threatening) etc etc and the fifth column over here paid for by them


you ought to see the sky presenter tonight 1130 (the papers0  trying to defend the eu  - don't tell me sky and the bbc are neutral

it is pathetic

Macron is all mouth and no substance - fur coat no knickers; talk the talk but cannot walk the walk. What has he done since he came to power? Zilch, where I'm concerned.

It is looking increasingly likely (almost a cert) 'brexit' could be upon us very, very soon on soundings from the media. It's reported Mrs May is speaking to individual Cabinet Minister tonight; t and c have been agreed with The EU,...just the i's and the t's to be dotted and crossed.

No unnecessary bureaucracy or un-elected self-serving EU politicians dictating to us. No celebration (yet) but prepping for it!

If she's sold us down the river, the ministers will say no

Get out 1st, sort out the (finer) details later. The EU boat will leak, and soon an exit cascade to follow from the other member countries.. I wonder - post UK brexit - The EU (Germany) would entertain Russia as a member to minimise the emerging power of China.

Making a big deal of this isn't she?

2 years and she's cackling about finally getting a draft ffs

What a joke

Wonce a leafer - all weighs a leafer.

What an absurd comparison, Europe and China? A fragmented multi-lingual and multi-culture inefficient organisation against a united China of unilingual, good work ethos, discipline and respect for one another, no chance. 

Don't think the Muslim Chinese are feeling particularly respected

Brexit : Live

https://tinyurl.com/yboe6qfr

David



Has she gone yet?

No, she's not gone yet; she's facing a leadership challenge at the present time. But she'll win if the polls are correct; she'll step aside before the next General Election.

Let's hope the Brexit train will not be derailed - delayed possibly; Brexit with or without a deal, and call The EU bluff.

so if we had a 2nd referendum and the vote went with remain do we then have a 3rd one because the leave camp don't agree that the remainers knew what they were doing what a load of b......s DEMOCRACY is what counts without that we are sunk as a nation.

They need us.

The EU are sunk indeed: 17 out of 28 member states sill need supporting by the others. Once some of these 17 become economically more successful courtesy of the UK and the other 10 member states generous contributions annually is there an agreement of securing all the contributions they have received before they leave eg Poland ($8bn net 2016); another 15 years say, $75bn; in total 29 yrs membership (joined 2004) say, $175bn.

Will Poland be asked to pay back $175bn prior to 'Poexit'?

We all know if the remainers win a second vote that they didn't know what they were voting for

If anyone can tell me the state of this country in ten years time voting in or out(not the hokey kokey)
you will be a millionaire monge tout

sometimes it's good to reminisce from 5 months ago. And not so good when things you predict come very true

What happens you get the Same result That is the Question , Fook mays deal, Should be in or out ,Do not under estimate the Power of Protest