Not looking good for Bradley Wiggan - Piers Morgan piles in

not sure about the rights or wrongs of this wiggins case but getting rid of the rancid "honours" system altogether would be a good start.

Fully agree

Denzil, I think you're right.

A few years ago (late 80's), in the course of my work, I had several meetings in the house of a top British female discus thrower or shot putter, I can't remember which.
She was telling me that ALL top athletes were on something or other, because of they didn't they would have no chance of winning.

She went on to name a couple of names we all know and some of their nicknames... "Miss steroid", "the fixer", and others.

Cycling has always been a drug riddled sport - remember Tommy Simpson in 1967, he was known to be on performance enhancing drugs, but it wasn't against the rules back then. Lance Armstrong?
Then there's Weightlifting, most athletics events (East Germany in the 70's and 80's), swimming (Chinese amazing performances for a couple of years only), a lot of state sponsored drugs in sport, particularly from eastern Europe.
So many sprinters - Ben Johnson, Linford Christie (he didn't go on about "drug cheats should be banned" much, did he?), Tyson Gay, Justin Gatlin....

This list is JUST athletics cheats who've been banned. Many more haven't. It doesn't include other sports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics

STUDYFORM you've heard it from the horses mouth there would be no reason for that lady to tell you that if it wasn't the case.
Everybody wants to believe that we British don't cheat but common sense should tell everyone otherwise.
Those that have been banned are scapegoats because the problems go way back in time and is out of control.
Everything we have seen since at least the 1952 Olympics (probably 1948 as well) are not clean results but nobody wants to accept or address this because too much money and too many reputations and lives will be in jeopardy.

http://www.kawasaki-m.ac.jp/soc/mw/journal/en/2006-e12-1/01_kremenik.pdf

I've got loads of information on the subject of doping in sports and have spent endless hours watching documentaries and fact checking information it's mind blowing until you understand the realities of sport £££££££$$$$$$$

Alan Wells The Flying Scotsman......Yeah Right.

I watched the Wells documentary about his association with a doping doctor but that was swept under the carpet as jealous accusations by a former team mate

http://www.kawasaki-m.ac.jp/soc/mw/journal/en/2006-e12-1/01_kremenik.pdf

'At the 1920 Summer Olympics at Antwerp Belguim, another American Charlie Paddock drank sherry with raw eggs before the 100 metres Sprint final, He won the race and got to keep his medal'

What, were the toilets located immediately behind the finish line.?

Lunacy I like the one about the 1936 100m American swimmer disqualified for acute alcoholism

On a brighter note, asthmatic kids are no longer picked last for a kick-around.

Isn't the difference with Radcliffe is that she genuinely has asthma?

Exercise Induced Asthma

"“It depends which respiratory consultant you talk to on whether you put these athletes on a spectrum of asthma, or whether you think that’s purely down to them exercising really hard in a certain environment, and if you take them out of that environment they’re fine. It’s a grey zone. But my argument is it’s a form of asthma.”

This is  "John Dickinson from Kent university, a world expert on asthma in sport, who has tested all 33 UK-based swimmers from the British Swimming squad found 70% have some form of asthma."

So even somebody that is a 'world expert' concedes that it's a grey zone. Go to the 'right' doctor, who would say you 'have asthma' then gives what are performance enhancing drugs. But we're not Russians so it's ok.

The slimy Lord Coe is back in the hot seat, he'll no doubt come out of it unscathed.

Yes Injera that's true but the performance enhancing effects of the particular drugs used remain the same.She technically is using something that will enhance her performance albeit legally under Theraputic Use Exemption and from anecdotal evidence are better than an EPO and Testosterone stack for endurance athletes.

Correct john92

Ok Denzil. john's comments interesting...

saddo the IAAF are completely bent and Coe has no credibility whatsoever as well as a tainted past he'll be walking on eggshells for sure

It's delightful that 39 posts in and no-one has mentioned football because there's no money in that sport to make cheating worthwhile.
Also the drug testing procedures in place are very stringent, thanks to the FA. They have invested heavily in biological profiles and it is no longer the case that pissing into a jar constitutes 80% of drug tests.
Plus of course, speed and stamina would be of no assistance to a football team where it's all down to spirit, hard work and a brilliant coaching system.
Operacion Puerto was not hampered by government interference in Spain and it, at no point, became clear that the dominance of Barcelona in club football and Spain internationally was a direct result of doping.
Leicester City were amazing and this had nothing to do with finding a way to emulate the effects of EPO in a legal but morally dubious way.
Southampton went for 56th in the league to 4th in no time, while selling all their best players, because of their excellent academy.
Tottenham only engaged in blood spinning when the player was injured.
The leap in average distances covered by teams managed by certain managers is entirely coincidental.
When certain world famous footballers are able to change their physique in the space of a summer holiday it is down to improved diet.
Football does not have a doping problem.

Oh, and Mo Farrah races clean.

(If I were you I wouldn't wait for MPs, I'd just troll back through the United thread. All the information re TUEs and the new ways to cheat in cycling was on there about 4 years ago.)

All sports stars use something, otherwise they simply wouldn't be able to compete. Tyson Fury said the exact same thing about 2 years ago, strangely got banned and they dragged it on for 2 years. there's no way none of them have been at it, including footballers, and I'd probably have a guess jockey's in horse racing use something as well, lets not forget they literally have to starve themselves to make the weight, so what are they substituting the food with?

Who else thinks Jessica Ennis was entirely clean? the golden girl, lets not forget when Wiggans won his TDF and gold medals he was the golden boy. If they out Wiggens and people believe it, why is it so hard to think Ennis was at it as well?, is it because the media haven't said so?

Rugby? The physiques of those guys can't just be down to gym work and protein.

Agree about footballers' physiques too. Can't believe they always avoid the pizzas, pies, chips and beers. Are they THAT disciplined??? Other events in their lives suggest otherwise...

However, cycling is all about the 1% gains and so can benefit more from doping. Track events are about 10ths and 100ths of seconds. This is where Brailsford could face the most scrutiny.

If you just do gym work and protein shakes you'll have a leaner physique, 6 pack yes but not the muscles these rugby stars are parading around with, some of them don't have the natural frame to be able to produce the muscle they have, so they need to be pumping themselves up somehow.

Simple cure, well, for most of it...
Take the money back out of sport, all the agents, the appearance monies, the ridiculous pay for winning.
Make the need to take the drugs a little less.

That said, Goldman's dilemma is interesting.
Apparently, he's a bloke who asked athletes this question;
"If you could take a drug that would win you a gold medal and make you unbeatable, but killed you 5 years after taking it, would you still take it?"
52% were supposed to have said they would, but the results have been sort of turned over after some years and re-asking the question, a bit like disqualifying the cheats.

SontaranStratagem was just talking about Jonah Lomu last night a sad example of what can happen on the gear,though at the time all of the NZ Rugby squad were on the juice and were taking ridiculous amounts of Creatine Monohydrate which I took years ago.
Some of them were taking 40 times the recommended dose so whoever was in charge of this was completely clueless as there's no additional benefits beyond about 5-10g per day once it's in your system,all it does is raises your creatinine level which is deadly to your kidneys.
Lomu suffered Nephrotic kidney disease as did his team mate Joeli Vidri which affects 3 in 100,000 and it's thought the silly Creatine levels and PED's were the cause.

morgans called it on,will wiggins sue him ,bring it up in court, and if he doesn't,well, the bbc are still waiting for fat sam to take them to court

Wiggins hasnt broken the rules, didnt need to announce to all his competitors how flawed the rules were, and doesnt need to apologise or backtrack now imo.

The stupidity in drug controvercies is nearly always down to event organisers imposing rules that they cant police.

Rule 7b) You absolutely cant take performance enhancing drugs unless you fill out this form that says you have asthma. Yeah that'll cover it.

even though panorama,bbc have been on wiggins case more than most over this strange he gives his 1st interview to dan rowan on the bbc and not to sky,who,ve spent all day trying to defend the indefensible in most people,s eyes

@1st time poster, I would guess it's because he and Sky would want his say to be aired to a wider audience, Sky's audience is limited considering it's subscription based.

Brad Wiggins
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I find it so sad that accusations can be made, where people can be accused of things they have never done which are then regarded as facts. I strongly refute the claim that any drug was used without medical need. I hope to have my say in the next few days & put my side across.

I read once that the lady cyclists improved by retaining their lady-gardens.  Shaving it off, as is the wont of many a modern female, caused distracting chafing.

well I bought sky to for the vice channel

job done

Does it come with a free inhaler?

wiggans should sue morgan, and the parliamentary committee for millions

now these are the facts. Someone with asthma can take this drug
and someone without asthma could .so what? the drug is not illegal
if the drug is legal for someone with asthma it should be legal for someone without asthma

Or else ban the drug for all competitors

Or else ban the drug for all competitors

you see the grey area is in allowing asthma sufferers to use this drug and compete
When that happens the question arises , just how much of an asthma sufferer are you
Well no one knows that, so the parliamentary committee and Morgan should shut up

http://getasthmahelp.org/famous-people.aspx

Only having no exemptions will stop a chancer seeing an opportunity to get an edge.

I doubt if these accusations were aimed at a Russian team or an American team there would be quite so many willing to give the benefit of the doubt .

I think you will find that Russian teams were using illegal drugs

I think you will find there are no Russian based teams in the Grand Tours.

yes, that's why they haven't been found to be using illegal drugs, if there were they would have been
they wont use them at the Olympics either if they are not there

Will he have to pay back His hard Earned Advertising Money ??

piers knows he won't sue

I finds it very offensive that people can just make unsubstantiated claims on here about other athletes. Wiggins clearly has plenty of questions to answer.  Paula Radcliffe, however,  has been an asthma sufferer since her early teens. You can argue over whether this has given her an advantage but she undoubtedly has done nothing wrong. Jessica Ennis has certainly done nothing wrong and there is absolutely nothing in her history to suggest otherwise.

people need to remember that sky were set up to win races clean ,brailsford mantra was that little differences in every aspect of cycling would beat the drug cheats,instead they've done the complete opposite and used the small print in the rules to gain an advantage,if brailsford and skys mantra was followed they,d have come clean about the asthma and TUE,s, not be found out by hacking and leaking of the documents,this is all before the covering every deatail doesn't include keeping medical records and contents of iffy jiffy bags

I've no idea about Radcliffe and asthma but there is little doubt she was a transfuser.  Certainly her stored blood samples were highly indicative of autologous transfusions according to independent experts

Radcliffe the most obvious doughper....world record by a ridiculous margin..never came near it again.A joke.

asparagus that's true about Paula though it just so happens that the Asthma drugs that were used come with huge performance enhancing benefits that's why they are illegal.
From what we're hearing now there are many Asthma meds which will deal with the condition with less performance benefits but UK Athletics/Cycling/Team Sky chose the ones with big benefits on purpose to abuse the TUE system that explains Radcliffe's impossible Marathon runs.

1st time poster sums it up well at 10.04 above. With the road cycling season just getting going, particularly on the Grand Tours, Sky are going to get serious abuse on the roads of Europe over this over the course of the season.

You sense Wiggins is also getting the benefit of the doubt from the UK media. No surprise there. If you read the French and Italian press, that's not the case.

Putting aside entrenched national views, Sky do not come out of this looking well. They'll be damned if they keep their level of success going this season and as damned if they don't. Let's see how they get on this year.

It's harsh to single out people really which we've done because everyone who is anyone is on something in one way or another or else they couldn't compete.
To think anyone has won things clean and beat the dopers clean is naive and a near impossibility.
We have these problems because the testing isn't fit for purpose and they don't want to catch anyone Elite anyway,the results go their federation and dealt with from there (bung is paid for result to disappear or if you're expendable you're thrown under the bus).
The most high profile person (Armstrong) was tested around 600 times and was on everything you could imagine and was only caught because he was grassed up.
Us British abuse the TUE system because it sounds more acceptable than the words Steroids or EPO,notice the only tests Linford Christie PUBLICLY failed was when he was an old man finished.
Can anybody seriously say that they thought Linford was clean?
Look at the guy when he was 25 in the peak of Testosterone (naturally) then look at him later you'll get your answer it's obvious to anyone with eyesight.

a few golfers use beta blockers - heart condition or putting

Lots of athletes use Beta Blockers (in the form of blood pressure meds) they are the most common masking agents for Steroids and many are on the banned lists.

Go Ballistic, that's just nonsense. Paula was cleared by the IAAF who have her complete blood test history and by UKAD.
Denzil, yes I agree the asthma medication is a tricky one because of potential performance enhancement. However, in Paula's case because she had been an asthmatic from a young age there is absolutely no suggestion that she used TUE's or anything else in an unethical way. She required the medication. That's different to Wiggins quite clearly. I'm not sure what the answer is as clearly the TUE system gets abused. Maybe all asthma medication that is considered performance enhancing should be banned and it's just unlucky for an asthma sufferer. The point really is though, that Paula Radcliffe should not be suffering this innuendo because of the Wiggins situation.
Paula's marathon world best was perfectly explainable too (simply running in a mixed race so effectively having male pacemakers.) It's a nonsense to suggest otherwise.

Are we saying that people who have asthma , like Paula Radclife, are not allowed to win races , or gold medals or set world records ?
If so why are they competing?

The system is what's to blame imo. The type of drugs available legally through TUE's will always cause these debates.
What anyone with asthma has done is legal if they have a TUE but the problems are the performance benefits that come with them and whether they could've used a drug to treat the Asthma ONLY and not choose a drug that is clearly performance enhancing.
The system should only allow drugs which will treat the Asthma alone so everyone who needs them only gets their Asthma treated and not the powerful gear that have been used previously then everything would be above board.

hands up

I take drugs , then read the racing post

that's right, so the parliamentary committee and morgan can pipe down about wiggans

asparagus 06 Mar 18 13:32 
Go Ballistic, that's just nonsense. Paula was cleared by the IAAF who have her complete blood test history and by UKAD.

Of course she was cleared by the IAAF. They sat on the results for years and did nothing. Obviously you are entitled to the opinion that the IAAF is not at all corrupt and Ashendon, has no idea what he is talking about or is in some way biased, and that Paula achieved untouchable performances after EPO was invented on pan y agua

how many thousands of asthma sufferers throughout the world taking part in sports
many of them will be perfectly free from symptoms 99% of the time

The IAAF aren't fit for purpose and totally corrupt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIkiC3iT0GA

What about Messi and the growth hormone ?

Putting money into a charity to avoid paying tax,what a lovely character he's turning out to be..

very sensible

Drugs cheat and tax avoider says it all...

nonsense, just doesn't want to pay tax if possible

look around at who it goes to

salmon spray there's endless stuff kept under the carpet all sport is riddled and has been for years though I hadn't heard that one about Messi presumably used HGH for recovery from injury?

its in his biography, he was very small when a youngster in Argentina .
Barcelona were able to afford the costs of hgh when his family could not

nothing to do with injuries, he was just very talented as a footballer but too small

Cheers lfc1971

Mar 6, 2018 -- 2:38PM, thegiggilo wrote:

Drugs cheat and tax avoider says it all...

yep the guys total scum!

Steady on GRANTCKING you'll upset the fact police criticising our National heroes like that

Go Ballistic, you seem to be suggesting that anyone who is a world record holder must be a drug taker. That's a rather cynical and sad attitude to take. There is no solid evidence whatsoever that Paula Radcliffe was doing anything illegal. I have no doubts whatsoever that she was clean.

I agree Paula was legal but can't agree any athlete on these Asthma meds we've been doling out are clean when there are weaker versions with less performance benefits not used.

As for clean athletes breaking world records I'd say the one I've posted will never be broken clean as long as humans can run.
Look where Caster Semenya is in the table
This person has undescended testicles and a test level like men of similar age and is nearly 2 seconds behind the best time from 38 years ago.

Correct as of August 2017.[7] Womens 800m

Rank     Time     Athlete     Nationality     Date     Place     Ref
1      1:53.28     Jarmila Kratochvílová      Czechoslovakia     26 July 1983     Munich    
2     1:53.43     Nadezhda Olizarenko      Soviet Union     27 July 1980     Moscow    
3     1:54.01     Pamela Jelimo      Kenya     29 August 2008     Zürich    
4     1:54.44     Ana Fidelia Quirot      Cuba     9 September 1989     Barcelona    
5     1:54.81     Olga Mineyeva      Soviet Union     27 July 1980     Moscow    
6     1:54.94     Tatyana Kazankina      Soviet Union     26 July 1976     Montreal    
7     1:55.05     Doina Melinte      Romania     1 August 1982     Bucharest    
8     1:55.16     Caster Semenya      South Africa     13 August 2017     London     [8]

All odd looking world records should be viewed with caution, especially long held world records.

As for Paula Radcliffe, was she taking medication at the time? ermmmmmmmm might it have enhanced performance ermmmmmmmm

Might be best when the testing system is much improved and these organisations have a grip then reset every world and start afresh.

I had that discussion at the weekend about starting afresh but there is zero control,many undetectable drugs/grey areas and a completely bent organisation watching over everything we'd have to live in a world of 1800's technology to make sport clean again and no £$ incentives

and all elite athletes and cyclists have a webpage

where every time they take any medication, including headache tablets, inhaler use, absolutely anything, must document it on the webpage that anyone can view anytime. If it transpires that they have taken something and not documented then instant lifetime ban.


They have time for Twitter, making adverts etc they can do this.

Could look odd when 80% of the British cyclist team all admit to taking asthmatic drugs

The figures are staggering if it was Russia it's obvious what eevryone's thoughts would be.
In fact the Russians have missed a trick imo with this gear plenty athletes who've done EPO/Test and Asthma meds at different times claim the Asthma gear is on a different level

Team doctors?
If they are so sick why are they not at home in bed?

I was going to start an Adam Peaty thread but I've been called a few names already on these threads I'll save him for later

The doctors are more important than the athletes kincsem

That kratochilova was a looker,s/he could've won the weight lifting no problem..

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-jarmila-kratochvilova-cze-competing-in-the-...

Should of put a warning on the pic don't look too hard at the shorts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVSmPBLnSXY

This will never be beaten clean either

nah,can't agree with that Denz..if she'd have been juicing it would surely have exacted a toll on her general health and she would've died young or smth
very smooth,elegant performance when running so incredibly quickly that it actually doesn't really look like she was running such an egregious time
the interesting thing is what % of a difference speedwise are we talking?
she is 27/100ths quicker than Ashford's next best time ..so roughly 2.5%
looking at the fastest times they are more or less contemporaneous early 80s albeit this was 1988
guess hoes were just quicker then for whatever reason and genetics have regressed since

Still no decision about Froome:

The race director of the Tour de France has criticised the lack of a decision on Chris Froome’s failed drug test, calling the delay “grotesque”.

Froome has won the Tour de France four times but it is understood Christian Prudhomme does not want the Briton at this year’s race while his doping case is unresolved.


Cycling’s governing body, the UCI, is waiting for Froome and his representatives to submit their response to his adverse finding at the Vuelta a España last September. A urine test showed double the permitted level of the asthma medication Salbutamol in his system. But Froome and Team Sky insist he did not break any anti‑doping rules.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/mar/06/tour-de-france-director-chris-froome-decision

Thought it had gone a bit quiet could be more to come with these lot?

Florence Griffith-Joyner's world record has been the subject of a controversy due to strong suspicion of a defective anemometer measuring a tailwind lower than actually present;[37] since 1997 the International Athletics Annual of the Association of Track and Field Statisticians has listed this performance as "probably strongly wind assisted, but recognised as a world record".[38] It can be reasonable to assume a wind reading of about +4.7 m/s for Griffith-Joyner's quarter-final. Her legal 10.61 the following day and 10.62 at the 1988 Olympics would still make her the world record holder.[39]

Didn't know that JML just got 0.0 wind speed on Wikapedia but it looked blowy on the video.

She retired abruptly before mandatory drug testing began in 1989.

Florence was tested more than any other athlete during the 1988 Olympics apparently and nothing found. She died at 39 due to suffocation in her sleep from a epileptic fit and no drugs found in her system apart from small trace amounts of two over the counter meds

I think it's widely known that she was a long term steroid user though,not failing drug tests has been proven to be irrelevant

Spot on Denzil

Not that I am disagreeing nor really care but regardless of what is widely known ( or not ) the record states different

when will sir wiggan turn to mr wiggan happen

The records can state what they like but the facts are these:

FGJ retired from full-time athletics in 1984, aged 25, having won a silver medal in the 200m. While she ran competitively for the next couple of years she also worked in a bank full-time and had a sideline doing people's nails.

In 1987, she married Al Joyner, who should need no introduction to anyone remotely interested in the subject of doping in sport. At the end of 1987, aged 28, her personal best for the 100m was 10.96, half a second - five metres - slower than she would run in the 1988 Olympics.

She set the world record for 100m, which still stands today, at the US Olympic trials in the spring of 1988. That is a half a second improvement in a matter of months. Her 200m WR also still stands, 30 years after the event.

FCJ retired immediately after the 1988 Olympics.


Those are the facts, and they point overwhelmingly towards FCJ being a drug cheat. The fact that no other woman - convicted cheats and the supposedly innocent alike - have been able to even approach her times, and the fact that she herself was unable to even approach them prior to her 29th year also point overwhelmingly to her guilt. As History has proved since, the fact that she failed no tests at the time is an absolute irrelevance. It is simply preposterous to think that an exposed 28-year-old athlete can improve from being merely world-class to being the fastest woman ever for approaching half a century in a matter of months. The fact that she was able to improve her times to such a degree only after the intervention of Al Joyner should also attest to her guilt.

On the last point, it is also worth noting that Sir Mohammed Farah has also never failed a drug test of which we are at present aware. To anybody familiar with the History of human endeavour, his career - and again the sudden huge improvement following a change of coach whom suspicion has followed around since his own running career - is simply not credible without adding in PED involvement.

Of course we don't like to imagine our own athletes descending to these levels, but can anyone find any other explanation for the meter and a half Linford Christie found in his athletic dotage, or for the fact that the Chairman of the IAAF himself was running times in the ultimate speed endurance challenge that have been bettered - marginally - by only two men in the intervening 38 years?

My mate was in Greece in the 80s and got friendly with a geordie bloke who was supplying steroids to a British runner at the time, I think he is a commentator these days.

jed.davison cracking post
Glad you've mentioned Sepp Coe eventually he will be outed as being completely bent,he's the leader of a completely corrupt organisation who've taken bribes left,right and centre for years yet he's seemingly untouchable I'm getting deja vu