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Chit Chat
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I understand the emotion of wanting to remove the monuments, especially as they can be a magnet for neo-nazis, but for the first time I think I may actually agree with Trump(removal of statues, not the violence in Charlottesville) 
You cannot airbrush history. The Civil War happened. I have been to plenty of cities in the US with statues of Confederates and found them of interest, and pretty much ignored by the locals. I wonder if the clamour to remove anything to do with the Confederates has caused the neo-nazis to rally to this issue more than if it had been left alone? Unfortunately a lot of people do not know their history and are unable to put these monuments/statues in historical context. I have been lucky enough to visit the Vicksburg National Military Park in Mississippi. In the park there are hundreds of monuments and statues to both sides of the war. It may well attract some racists, but the park is where actual battles took place and is a great place to learn about the war. The city was instrumental for the victory of the North. I'd make it a compulsory visit.
You cannot airbrush history. The Civil War happened. I have been to plenty of cities in the US with statues of Confederates and found them of interest, and pretty much ignored by the locals. I wonder if the clamour to remove anything to do with the Confederates has caused the neo-nazis to rally to this issue more than if it had been left alone? Unfortunately a lot of people do not know their history and are unable to put these monuments/statues in historical context. I have been lucky enough to visit the Vicksburg National Military Park in Mississippi. In the park there are hundreds of monuments and statues to both sides of the war. It may well attract some racists, but the park is where actual battles took place and is a great place to learn about the war. The city was instrumental for the victory of the North. I'd make it a compulsory visit.
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Those protesting against the KKK and the WS are every bit as violent.
Nothing should ever be conceded to them. |
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The left are violent thugs yet the media always portray them as meek innocents. Trying to erase history is what the Khmer Rouge did and ISIS do. Add the Left to that number.
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Its Like going round bulldozing mosques Because of the Lunatic Fringe attached to the Religion ...
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In the Bible it is clearly expected that a successful gentleman should keep slaves. He should treat them well of course and the slaves should be obedient.
So can we demolish all the churches built before the 1800s when modern Christianity began to reject biblical doctrine? Just asking for a friend who hates churches. |
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Trying to erase history is what the Khmer Rouge did and ISIS do
Strawman alert! It's not about erasing history - they want everyone to know what happened. It's about stopping but the glorification of men who wanted to maintain slavery. But of course you know that |
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Only a matter of time before Mt Rushmore will be on the list.
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It is all part of the program to remove your national identity, the left have been attacking everything you stand for.
Globalists want a low level of intelligence to expand their power. |
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akabula
17 Aug 17 16:43 Those protesting against the KKK and the WS are every bit as violent. Nothing should ever be conceded to them. So should we be supporting the KKK and White Supremacists? |
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take to court and jail anyone guilty of violence, including the leftists and other assorted troublemakers.
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It's not about erasing history - they want everyone to know what happened
Well, their version of it. |
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two sides to every story.
the "history" of these statues & monuments isn't always all it appears to be. |
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More about making the present sit more comfortably with the past.
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that lovely things such as the Confederate statues and memorials exist, is a lovely thought.
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civil war conflicts tend to be more barbaric and with more atrocities than wars between nations.
it seems that war between brothers and fellow citizens sometimes takes these conflicts to a greater level of cruelty we have seen this as recently as in Yugoslavia with people who were neighbours living peacefully creating atrocities. But this was not so in the American civil war, not to the same extent as in other countries. |
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of course when you compare it to what happened in places like Cambodia, or Russia, or France, or Rwanda, or China ect
there is no comparison. |
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those where the people in America who fought that war, the greatest loss of life in American history, greater than WW1, WW2, Vietnam, and Korea combined
and those were the men who put up those statues, we might think we have something to learn from them. |
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lfc...
Roughly 1,264,000 American soldiers have died in the nation's wars--620,000 in the Civil War and 644,000 in all other conflicts. It was only as recently as the Vietnam War that the amount of American deaths in foreign wars eclipsed the number who died in the Civil War. close, but no cigar. |
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fair enough.
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I think the first obvious point to make is that the removal of that statue was merely a front for the fascists to congregate. There's enough video evidence, posters, facebook posts etc to confirm. This was merely about getting all fascists, white supremacists, mildly racists, and the disaffected who've fallen for the idea that their own inadequacies are the fault of others together in a show of might. The removal of the statue was merely a convenient prop for the meeting.
Ergo, is the removal of other statues going to stop fascists in their tracks. No, imo. I'm not privy to the reasons the decision to remove them was made. I understand it was to do with a white supremacist mass murder a while ago but don't know the full details. Secondly though, the idea of removing them is some way of denying their history. Obviously complete nonsense. Just read a book ffs. You'll do well to find any statues of Hitler or Goebbels but I'm pretty sure most people know who they are and what they did. My own choice would be for the authorities to use this as an opportunity. Thousands of people died in the civil war, the south believed in slavery, in white supremacy. Given we've had round 6 months of Trump and we're already talking about nuclear war and seen the biggest coming together of fascists in the US in decades then it's probably an opportune moment to remember that history can teach us valuable lessons. Keep your statues of Stonewall Jackson but put them in context. Don't treat the statue itself as a point of veneration for white supremacy. |
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For many years after the Civil War, Southern states routinely convicted poor African Americans and some whites of vagrancy or other crimes, and then sentenced them to prolonged periods of forced labor. Owners of businesses, like plantations, railroads and mines, then leased these convicts from the state for a low fee. It was a win-win situation for people at the top. Business owners had an inexpensive workforce that couldn't make labor demands. And convicts were actually cheaper than slaves, so incentive to treat them well was low. The struggling state governments had nearly no overhead expenses when the convicts were leased, and the prisoners generated an enormous income stream. How big? In Alabama, convict leasing constituted 73% of the state's revenue in 1898!
It may come as no surprise that criminal populations multiplied in several states by as much as ten times between 1865 and the turn of the century. Inmates were big business. What kind of crime might lead someone to be sentenced to convict labor? Being homeless or having a home that seemed too expensive (suggesting the homeowner is stealing), being unemployed, gambling, vagrancy and a host of other real and imagined offenses. Convict leasing existed in every former Confederate state, except Virginia, and lasted for almost 60 years. |
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That is for the American people to decide, not you pineapple.
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the idea of removing them is some way of denying their history. Obviously complete nonsense. Just read a book ffs. You'll do well to find any statues of Hitler or Goebbels but I'm pretty sure most people know who they are and what they did.
It isn't about denying history, facts cannot be denied, its about burying it, not just statues being removed but parks, colleges and state buildings being renamed. True you will always be able to go to the Library and read that history, unless the 'book burners' get that first, but in a few years time you certainly wont be walking past anything likel to provoke such memories, hence no statues of Hitler or Goebbels. Anyway PP shouldn't you be on the Barcelona thread showing the same intolerance your demanding below. PorcupineorPineapple Some posters tolerance and understanding of neo-nazis is in stark contrast to that shown to muslims. Wonder why? |
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The celebration of men who fought to maintain slavery is extremely hurtful to black people. The KKK, white supremacists and, yes, President Ignorance know it and this is precisely why they want to preserve the statues.
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That is for the American people to decide, not you pineapple.
and they are deciding to take the statues down. |