Hillsborough (Grenfell) do YOU finally understand ??

scissors i hear your pain , you are correct in your post hopefully things will change soon , yes RIP to all the victims  in both tragedies

There will never be a complete justice for grenfell,a scapegoat yes that will be it another cover up 1.01...

Both great tragedies, but other than that the two incidents are very different.

Hillsborough was an establishment cover up, but Grenfell is more about individual, council and business corruption.  There will be prosecutions in Grenfell and probably very hefty prison sentences.

anxious .. thank you for your post .,
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As i visited different parts of the country and people
found I was from Merseyside they would always comment along the lines =
Why don't you all shut up about Hillsborough -- WHY do you scousers all keep going on
10 years after -- 15 years after -20 years after - etc ..
Well the scenes you saw at Grenfell was collective utter grief focused in one small area as the survivors, and witnesses congregated ..
That same grief was played out in a 1000 homes in Liverpool and surrounding areas but because it was dissipated
it wan't really seen ir felt in the rest of the UK..
ALL the merseysiders ever asked for was the one word JUSTICE ..
= Justice for the 96 ..
That's all ..
Until 30 years later the merseysiders could say to their relatives  killed
In the tragedy -- we finally got you the justice you all deserved..

For the people of Grenfell we want justice and answers much sooner ..
Their tragedy, like Hillsborough, could and should have been prevented --
and lessons taken and kearned so no other family have this kind of tragic grief again --
And those in Authority (who helped make the tragedy) -- are properly examined and where
if any illegal misdoing is found and proved they are FITTINGLY dealt with by the justice system..
Grenfell deserves better - sooner .
30 years on and that stage has STILL not been reached yet over Hillsborough and the cover up.
The country stands United at last on these aims.

I didn't say this before as it felt inappropriate when the tragedy was fresh.

If the govt, journalists, and the media have not yet talked about the true death toll(79 is a joke), then they are never going to. Also harsh to say this, but with the way things are going, a new tragedy should be hitting some time soon and then even the people will forget it. My guess is, someone really important is involved(they always are) and hence the massive coverup.

Another very inappropriate thing to say, but what if the terrorists get the idea? I know they are really stupid and they prefer running people over or doing knife attacks, but how easy is it to start a fire in a multi storey building? Now that Grenfell has happened, surely you can easily find out which other buildings are built similarly? A few have been announced by the govt already. Funny no one has talked about that possibility yet.

I dont think that great friend of the British Working Class Rupert Murdoch and his buddy Kelvin Mckenzie helped much with their coverage of Hillsborough

Strange to how it took 23 years for this newspaper to apologise , perhaps newspaper is not the right term im sure many could more accurately describe this thing.

Anyone who went to football around that time knew a tragedy could occur. I was in several crushes during that period and it was a miracle noone died. Didn't stop me going though...

Not sure about the  success of the campaign though. There's still no 'justice'. The FA were the main culprits imo, alongside the clubs themselves (hosting matches in death traps) and then there's the attitude of police ('fans guilty until proved innocent') and the fans themselves..my understanding is the fans chose to enter the already full pens 3 & 4. Of course these should have been closed off already, a clear failure by Sheff Wed FC and the police. Duckenfield:

At these inquests, he admitted he had given “no thought” to where the people would go if he opened the gate (next to the turnstile). He had not considered the risk of overcrowding. He had not foreseen that people would naturally go down the tunnel to the central pens right in front of them. He had not realised he should do anything to close off that tunnel. The majority of the 2,000 people allowed in through gate C went straight down the tunnel to the central pens, and gross overcrowding there caused the terrible crush.

Anyone gone to jail? Nope.

As for Grenfell, I know a guy who works for Rydon who did the refurb. He wasn't on that particular job but he's confident they didn't break any regs. It's a very confusing picture - why were such combustible materials used?

Injera yes i agree attending Football then many could see this sort of thing was a possibilty

The cover-up was a disgrace as was the communication between various bodies on the day. The decision to open the gate was probably quite sensible on the face of it as there was a bottleneck within the entrance to the turnstiles. As a Wed supporter I have to agree Hillsborough wasn't fit for purpose since football fans generally turned more boisterous in the 60s but the relatively few other grounds I visited in those days had similar flaws.

Plus the fact at some away games especially in them days if you gave the guy at the turnstile a fiver he would let you jump in, done this many times when going to away games with United.

a fiver anxious, you could get a group in for that at sjp

free if you knew which gate your mate was working

The OP is quite correct comparing both.. Imo, Hillsborough was not a tragic accident, it was something that was allowed to happen..anyone who went to the previous seasons semi final at the same ground involving the same teams will understand. You have to remember that in that time period, football had a bad press, mainly due to the type of person who went to the games, in general, scummy working class hooligans. Thanks to the Taylor report, the game changed, becoming more accessible to everyone. Gone were decaying stadia and vermin and in came money, all seater grounds and tv revenue..the average supporter was being priced out. the biggest crime about Hillsborough was that no manslaughter charges were brought. The inquest had its inevitable outcome, which everyone knew, but how much was not asked a the inquest? I would bet my last penny that an awful lot of documents were shredded and many questions unanswered. What we ended with was an inquiry into something that happened 25 years ago and most people would have forgotten the major facts, because that is what time does....The same will happen withGrenfell and its already started with the amount of disinformation in the press.

The obvious starting point is the Ethiopian taxi driver who knocked on his neighbours door telling her to get out whilst already having a packed suitcase at his feet..Patsy? Then the fire service saying they had put the fire out and then, best of all, the company responsible for the work, symphoning off 2 million quid into tax havens, best not check the councillors bank balance when that contract was granted..oh and now the pm has said there will be no background checks into the residents.

The more I read about Grenfell, the more I see arson.. A crime that was allowed to happen, exactly like Hillsborough. Football nowadays is totally unrecognisable to what it was in the 80s and in a few years time, Grenfell will be totally unrecognisable to what it was 2 weeks ago....btw, have you not noticed the number of exploding fridges in the media over the last few months?

But, we will have to wait for the results of the inquiry whenever that will be, but rest assured, just like Hillsborough, a lot of paperwork will go missing, a lot of lessons will be learned and a nice spanking new building will replace Grenfell, and exactly like Hillsborough, the common man will be priced out of it.

Always remember, when it comes to money, lives don't matter, and you can bet that some construction companies have ready contacted the local council about planning permission.

Very different both of them.

Hillsborough unfolded live on national TV but in 1989, the mass media, newspapers in particular, had a far greater sway on public opinion.

The 'story' of the drunken, ticketless, rioting Liverpool fans (some pi$$ing on and robbing the dead) was up, away and halfway round the world before the survivors made it back home. People believed pretty much what was written in the press and, well football fans were all thugs and a 'problem' to be 'dealt with' and whilst it's a shame some died well that's Scousers for you...well football fans en masse really, in 1989.

We pretty much deserved it.

In 2017 the court of public opinion has moved 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

These are poor innocent people (I wouldn't disagree with that, just pointing out the difference between the Grenfell victims and the way football fans were viewed in 1989). Social media now holds sway and anyone with access to it can get their 'facts' out there, irrespective of their agenda, bona fides regarding their journalistic ability and integrity and impartiality. Instant, dogmatic, so-called eye-witness accounts are the only thing that counts in this era of rolling news.

This in turn feeds loud clamour for instant news, data and above all justice. To hell with letting 'the authorities' (ha! What the hell do they know!? 'Never trust an expert' particularly one who needs time, data, verifiable facts and a calm dispassionate disposition to come up with sound and verifiable findings.

'The Establishment' is now  social media thought leaders like Gary Lineker and Lily Allen, backed by the likes of David Lammy and his cries for figures on the number of dead - any figures - never mind if they are the truth or not and never mind if they are proven to be wrong and cause any kind of hurt. To hell with that! 'We' need justice and retribution and we need it now!

Given the scrutiny that Grenfell will be under (and everyone now is a Health and Safety / Cladding / Local Government procurement policy / Fire / Civil Engineerin expert based on two weeks reading of twitter feeds and facebook), the scope for any cover up Hillsborough-style is non-existent I'd say.

The only similarity is that no one will, once again get a fair hearing.

Did they spend this much time on the second world war?
the trials of the nazis took two years at Nuremberg.

This has taken decades. WTF. talk about drawing teeth.
this is Kafkaesque. Government paper trails gone nuts.

it's classic push back politics.

brexit comes in 2067 ?

The trials of the nazis took two years at Nuremberg.

It took 70 years to sentence Nazi prison guard Reinhold Hanning

Grenfell, Hillsbourgh tragic accidents both. However there are many other tragedies Iboxx. Aberfan even the Titanic. All unforeseen but they are accidents nothing more nothing less. Until something happens how do you know there's going to be a problem. Try jumping on a plane in America nowadays, before 9/11 getting on a plane was like catching a bus over here with little or no security. ****s like John McDonnel calling people murders beggars belief. As pointed out yesterday at PM questions the cladding issue has gone back along way and it's only now that it's come to light. As I've just said on the football forum there is now a blame/compensation culture that there wasn't back at the time of Hillsbourgh and I agree with Roger at that time football fans rated somewhere below whale sh1t