Hillsborough (Grenfell) do YOU finally understand ??

RIP to all the victims of these two tragedies , --
and peace to all relatives  and friends  hurt and affected.

scissors i hear your pain , you are correct in your post hopefully things will change soon , yes RIP to all the victims  in both tragedies

I am from Manchester but yes we show solidarity with the Scousers on this

There will never be a complete justice for grenfell,a scapegoat yes that will be it another cover up 1.01...

Hopefully it will be the same outcome regarding social housing as it has been for football, look at our stadiums now compared to thirty odd years ago

Both great tragedies, but other than that the two incidents are very different.

Hillsborough was an establishment cover up, but Grenfell is more about individual, council and business corruption.  There will be prosecutions in Grenfell and probably very hefty prison sentences.

My understanding is this ......  Planning assent was given to Grenfell on the basis of fire retardant cladding.  The fire retardant cladding wasn't used in contravention of the planning assent and the building was subsequently inspected 16 times!! by building control.  I've had work inspected by building control, and my experience is that they scrutinize the work very closely.  If building control don't end up in jail I'll be surprised.  The contractor is next on the hit list, followed by the architect.  The architect may be entirely innocent, if the building contractor went behind his back.

anxious .. thank you for your post .,
------
As i visited different parts of the country and people
found I was from Merseyside they would always comment along the lines =
Why don't you all shut up about Hillsborough -- WHY do you scousers all keep going on
10 years after -- 15 years after -20 years after - etc ..
Well the scenes you saw at Grenfell was collective utter grief focused in one small area as the survivors, and witnesses congregated ..
That same grief was played out in a 1000 homes in Liverpool and surrounding areas but because it was dissipated
it wan't really seen ir felt in the rest of the UK..
ALL the merseysiders ever asked for was the one word JUSTICE ..
= Justice for the 96 ..
That's all ..
Until 30 years later the merseysiders could say to their relatives  killed
In the tragedy -- we finally got you the justice you all deserved..

For the people of Grenfell we want justice and answers much sooner ..
Their tragedy, like Hillsborough, could and should have been prevented --
and lessons taken and kearned so no other family have this kind of tragic grief again --
And those in Authority (who helped make the tragedy) -- are properly examined and where
if any illegal misdoing is found and proved they are FITTINGLY dealt with by the justice system..
Grenfell deserves better - sooner .
30 years on and that stage has STILL not been reached yet over Hillsborough and the cover up.
The country stands United at last on these aims.

And at last in truly understanding the Hillsborough Families campaign .

I didn't say this before as it felt inappropriate when the tragedy was fresh.

If the govt, journalists, and the media have not yet talked about the true death toll(79 is a joke), then they are never going to. Also harsh to say this, but with the way things are going, a new tragedy should be hitting some time soon and then even the people will forget it. My guess is, someone really important is involved(they always are) and hence the massive coverup.

Another very inappropriate thing to say, but what if the terrorists get the idea? I know they are really stupid and they prefer running people over or doing knife attacks, but how easy is it to start a fire in a multi storey building? Now that Grenfell has happened, surely you can easily find out which other buildings are built similarly? A few have been announced by the govt already. Funny no one has talked about that possibility yet.

Hillsborough victims were mainly British working class people. Perhaps that's why there was less sympathy around, scissors.

I dont think that great friend of the British Working Class Rupert Murdoch and his buddy Kelvin Mckenzie helped much with their coverage of Hillsborough

the scum headline and front page kind of scuppered any support for working class victims

Strange to how it took 23 years for this newspaper to apologise , perhaps newspaper is not the right term im sure many could more accurately describe this thing.

Heysel

Anyone who went to football around that time knew a tragedy could occur. I was in several crushes during that period and it was a miracle noone died. Didn't stop me going though...

Not sure about the  success of the campaign though. There's still no 'justice'. The FA were the main culprits imo, alongside the clubs themselves (hosting matches in death traps) and then there's the attitude of police ('fans guilty until proved innocent') and the fans themselves..my understanding is the fans chose to enter the already full pens 3 & 4. Of course these should have been closed off already, a clear failure by Sheff Wed FC and the police. Duckenfield:

At these inquests, he admitted he had given “no thought” to where the people would go if he opened the gate (next to the turnstile). He had not considered the risk of overcrowding. He had not foreseen that people would naturally go down the tunnel to the central pens right in front of them. He had not realised he should do anything to close off that tunnel. The majority of the 2,000 people allowed in through gate C went straight down the tunnel to the central pens, and gross overcrowding there caused the terrible crush.

Anyone gone to jail? Nope.

As for Grenfell, I know a guy who works for Rydon who did the refurb. He wasn't on that particular job but he's confident they didn't break any regs. It's a very confusing picture - why were such combustible materials used?

164 police statements altered 116 to to remove criticism of the operation

Injera yes i agree attending Football then many could see this sort of thing was a possibilty

cladding seems to have been a nice little earner

alongside cavity wall insulation and loft insulation

quite how such dangerous materials were approved for cladding is
something else.

banned in germany and usa but allowed in uk, despite previous
evidence from uk fire and previous inquiry when may was home secretary

The cover-up was a disgrace as was the communication between various bodies on the day. The decision to open the gate was probably quite sensible on the face of it as there was a bottleneck within the entrance to the turnstiles. As a Wed supporter I have to agree Hillsborough wasn't fit for purpose since football fans generally turned more boisterous in the 60s but the relatively few other grounds I visited in those days had similar flaws.

One example of that anxious was the infilling of gangways on big match days. We all knew it went on, the clubs, the FA, the police and us.

Clubs were more than happy to pack in more fans to a terrace than was safe. All gangways would be filled. No gaps were left at the front, meaning if there was a crush it would be imposssible for people to get out.

Even at Upton Park (no fences)I recall a game v Ipswich in 1986 when the North Ban was overfull, possibly by 2k. St John's Ambulance couldn't pull people out, even at the front because they were so jammed in. hundreds could have been killed. I can only assume some at the back left the ground, easing the pressure.

Plus the fact at some away games especially in them days if you gave the guy at the turnstile a fiver he would let you jump in, done this many times when going to away games with United.

Liverpool fans didn't do that anxious. Pure as the driven snow,all of them.

a fiver anxious, you could get a group in for that at sjp

free if you knew which gate your mate was working

More in line with the bradford fire disaster. In 84 a letter from the council advised that problems "should be rectified as soon as possible"...


Source wikipedia

The OP is quite correct comparing both.. Imo, Hillsborough was not a tragic accident, it was something that was allowed to happen..anyone who went to the previous seasons semi final at the same ground involving the same teams will understand. You have to remember that in that time period, football had a bad press, mainly due to the type of person who went to the games, in general, scummy working class hooligans. Thanks to the Taylor report, the game changed, becoming more accessible to everyone. Gone were decaying stadia and vermin and in came money, all seater grounds and tv revenue..the average supporter was being priced out. the biggest crime about Hillsborough was that no manslaughter charges were brought. The inquest had its inevitable outcome, which everyone knew, but how much was not asked a the inquest? I would bet my last penny that an awful lot of documents were shredded and many questions unanswered. What we ended with was an inquiry into something that happened 25 years ago and most people would have forgotten the major facts, because that is what time does....The same will happen withGrenfell and its already started with the amount of disinformation in the press.

The obvious starting point is the Ethiopian taxi driver who knocked on his neighbours door telling her to get out whilst already having a packed suitcase at his feet..Patsy? Then the fire service saying they had put the fire out and then, best of all, the company responsible for the work, symphoning off 2 million quid into tax havens, best not check the councillors bank balance when that contract was granted..oh and now the pm has said there will be no background checks into the residents.

The more I read about Grenfell, the more I see arson.. A crime that was allowed to happen, exactly like Hillsborough. Football nowadays is totally unrecognisable to what it was in the 80s and in a few years time, Grenfell will be totally unrecognisable to what it was 2 weeks ago....btw, have you not noticed the number of exploding fridges in the media over the last few months?

But, we will have to wait for the results of the inquiry whenever that will be, but rest assured, just like Hillsborough, a lot of paperwork will go missing, a lot of lessons will be learned and a nice spanking new building will replace Grenfell, and exactly like Hillsborough, the common man will be priced out of it.

Always remember, when it comes to money, lives don't matter, and you can bet that some construction companies have ready contacted the local council about planning permission.

Jun 25, 2017 -- 3:26AM, CLYDEBANK29 wrote:

Both great tragedies, but other than that the two incidents are very different.Hillsborough was an establishment cover up, but Grenfell is more about individual, council and business corruption.  There will be prosecutions in Grenfell and probably very hefty prison sentences.

this

JUST ANNOUNCED ON TV NEWS

6 people will now stand trial in a court of justice
for the Manslaughters at Hillsborough !!
AT LAST !!
6 is the lowest group possible ., should be more .,
But the Sheffield Chief Constable  at the time is in the group --
As is Dukenfield -- who (imo ) was wishy washy with the truth
to coverup his error, which was a main error on the day.

^^^ CRIMINAL CHARGES ^^^

###....NORMAN BETTISON ...###

This guy was Chief Superintendent on the day
The govt were involved in the cover up and to rub salt in the families huge wound
They later appointed ^^ THAT guy to Chief Constable of Merseyside !!!
Can you imagine the slap in the face that was to the bereaved families and their
relatives who had lost  loved ones !!
The govt shoving the pole right up their a*** !!

I heard Norman Bettison quoted on the news tonight that he was surprised they were bringing charges.
Obviously an arrogant guy.
I wonder what the outcome would have been if the police had put their hands up at the time and admitted to the mistakes?

Very different both of them.

Hillsborough unfolded live on national TV but in 1989, the mass media, newspapers in particular, had a far greater sway on public opinion.

The 'story' of the drunken, ticketless, rioting Liverpool fans (some pi$$ing on and robbing the dead) was up, away and halfway round the world before the survivors made it back home. People believed pretty much what was written in the press and, well football fans were all thugs and a 'problem' to be 'dealt with' and whilst it's a shame some died well that's Scousers for you...well football fans en masse really, in 1989.

We pretty much deserved it.

In 2017 the court of public opinion has moved 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

These are poor innocent people (I wouldn't disagree with that, just pointing out the difference between the Grenfell victims and the way football fans were viewed in 1989). Social media now holds sway and anyone with access to it can get their 'facts' out there, irrespective of their agenda, bona fides regarding their journalistic ability and integrity and impartiality. Instant, dogmatic, so-called eye-witness accounts are the only thing that counts in this era of rolling news.

This in turn feeds loud clamour for instant news, data and above all justice. To hell with letting 'the authorities' (ha! What the hell do they know!? 'Never trust an expert' particularly one who needs time, data, verifiable facts and a calm dispassionate disposition to come up with sound and verifiable findings.

'The Establishment' is now  social media thought leaders like Gary Lineker and Lily Allen, backed by the likes of David Lammy and his cries for figures on the number of dead - any figures - never mind if they are the truth or not and never mind if they are proven to be wrong and cause any kind of hurt. To hell with that! 'We' need justice and retribution and we need it now!

Given the scrutiny that Grenfell will be under (and everyone now is a Health and Safety / Cladding / Local Government procurement policy / Fire / Civil Engineerin expert based on two weeks reading of twitter feeds and facebook), the scope for any cover up Hillsborough-style is non-existent I'd say.

The only similarity is that no one will, once again get a fair hearing.

As I said earlier, both tragedies were allowed to happen..I'm presuming that Warrington will be where the court case is heard. If so, then there will be more chance of guilty verdicts being found than if it was to take place in London say.

It's interesting to read that Dukinfield was only in the job a few weeks before the game and had no previous big game experience. The bloke he replaced had been removed from his post and shifted over to Barnsley, due to some internal incident involving his officers...A Patsy in waiting and in place? The replaced bloke had big game experience but his experience and knowledge were not asked for.

I'd expect that former blue eyed boy, Bettison will walk free. Quickly rose through the ranks following Hillsborough, was knighted and allowed to retire early on ill health...that old chestnut

But why no charges against the FA?..they repeatedly allowed Hillsborough to be used for semi finals in the 80s, despite scares of horror stories from previous semi finals and a letter regarding serious issues from Liverpool fc...they must have inspected the ground and found it fit for purpose.

Did they spend this much time on the second world war?
the trials of the nazis took two years at Nuremberg.

This has taken decades. WTF. talk about drawing teeth.
this is Kafkaesque. Government paper trails gone nuts.

it's classic push back politics.

brexit comes in 2067 ?

good start grenfell

dodgy judge appointed

The trials of the nazis took two years at Nuremberg.

It took 70 years to sentence Nazi prison guard Reinhold Hanning

The Nuremberg trials were a bigger farce than the Moscow Show Trials. The main nazis were allowed to leave Germany whilst it was mostly minnows who stood trial.....sound familiar?

Grenfell, Hillsbourgh tragic accidents both. However there are many other tragedies Iboxx. Aberfan even the Titanic. All unforeseen but they are accidents nothing more nothing less. Until something happens how do you know there's going to be a problem. Try jumping on a plane in America nowadays, before 9/11 getting on a plane was like catching a bus over here with little or no security. ****s like John McDonnel calling people murders beggars belief. As pointed out yesterday at PM questions the cladding issue has gone back along way and it's only now that it's come to light. As I've just said on the football forum there is now a blame/compensation culture that there wasn't back at the time of Hillsbourgh and I agree with Roger at that time football fans rated somewhere below whale sh1t

McDonnell shameful stupid remark

an my politics is centre-left

So mine xmoneyx well soft Tory. McDonnel is so far left he'll meet the right, very dangerous man imo

ever see the video where he admits spitting in his managers tea

No but wouldn't put it past the weasel eyed little xxxx. I could see him as head of the secret police. Polotics of envy.........of course he's doing very well for himself, hypocrite. "All the animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"

scissors, thanks for this thread, believe it or not many decent people with more than half a brain cell knew the truth and more importantly knew about the cover up. Have we won yet?, NO... BUT WE ARE STARTING TO.

Will Thatchers name come into this, I doubt it but she was complicit, and gave free reign to the South Yorkshire police, to do what they did. Will the pig that is Piers Morgan pay a price?.

How does the ordinary 'Joe' go up against the establishment? answer he doesn't!, until now, that is, now we have a powerful weapon called social media. The monumental efforts of the family's are without precedent, and finally reaping rewards, if they had had modern phones/cameras and social media, their pain would have been infinitely shorter, albeit not lessened.

As for Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbot et al, WTF did we do to deserve these clowns.  McDonnell's latest outburst is unbelievable,  with all the 'tools available to him he decides to charge head first into the establishment that is Whitehall/government.

The establishment is a bulldozer, you don't head butt a bulldozer, only a deluded self important fool would do that, a clever person would cut off the diesel supply, and when it had come to a shuddering halt (as May nearly did) you and your technicians would set about dismantling the fCker one and for all.

I have stated the glaringly obvious about Grenfell on another thread, which needs no repeating on here except to say the so called Public enquiry has already started down the usual route with the  appointment  of an establishment crony figure heading it. WE NEED AN INQUEST with all the legal/LAWFUL rights it confers to victims and their loved ones.

Social media got rid of Butler-Sloss, hopefully it will rid us of this barsteward...Lady (Elizabeth) Butler-Sloss, the high court judge was forced to stand down as chair of the government child abuse inquiry, she has been criticised for suggesting survivors could cause problems with the investigation.

The judge,  (I use that word loosely) Sir William Grantham, thought it perfectly acceptable for people to have to move out of London to Milton Keynes to resolve a previous case. is now driving this so called enquiry. Just one of many examples of this feckers MO, FFS.

If the Lefty/Libs on here like S_H, A_T et al,(see what I did there). switched on their few brain cells they   might actually achieve something, but I won't hold my breath, as they appear to be drowning in their own Marxist spittle.

This thread might not last long and indeed neither may I. But as I don't give S***. it's well worth it even if only one person reads this and considers whether this post has any validity or not. Thanks again scissors, GL mate

This post*

foxy the enquiry is to be led by sir martin moore-bick

grantham has been dead over 100 years ,,,,

Just realised that, silly old c***t that I am, the Milton Keynes bit is still relevant, I was discussing the Fcker mentioned with a mate and it stuck in my tiny mind. thank for the quick correction, I believe my post is still valid despite my stupidity.

i do the same meself

Donny the  mate I was discussing him with has the same name!, but he's not a sir!, what is your take on McDonnell's latest outburst?. Clever or outright stupidity.

which latest one ...the murder quotes ?


i think hes wrong but it resonates with his supporters, and at same
time gives ammo to his haters

there seem to be more and more folk living at the extreme of their own thoughts

cant be good for them

Agreed, not an edifying sight, and imho will just cause further division, as if we don't have enough already,  what we need is unifying reasoned statments from our would be leaders, am I just being naive, probably.

Boxing any reasonable and valid points you do have are spoiled by your nonsense over emotional mud slinging and name calling.

landed 1.01, toooooooooo easy

Would it be to much to expect you to make reasonable, valid points to contribute something useful to this thread, just by way of a change, BTW say hello to your alter ego for me.

oh on such a serious topic you're now fishing or least pretending to, great job, very appropriate.

Yeah, thought as much, you have nothing to add outside of your lefty liberal agenda, well done, not!

Sorry scissors, didn't mean to hijack this thread, I'll keep away to stop this clown posting shooite.

Might not be murder but I wonder if a manslaughter charge is appopriate? I hope the Police leave no stone unturned. I also hope the Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise investigate all the major players in this tragedy. Why was £10 Million spent. Why was the cladding reallyy put up and why not spend £240,000 odd on a sprinkler system that may have saved at least some more lives? Follow the money!

I've made two posts in this thread, both asking you why you are attacking people randomly and turning a serious subject matter into one of you boring crusades against 'lefty posters', if that is 'shoite' then so be it, not that I should justify anything to such a childish and neurotic poster who really should act his age but I have made many comments on Grenfell and posted on the Hillsborough thread on the football forum, how is one meant to take you seriously when you post juvenile ramblings such as If the Lefty/Libs on here like S_H, A_T et al,(see what I did there.

I am not sure anyone will, or should, be found guilty in any of the two tragedies.

it will be a combination of mistakes and things unthought off or misunderstood?

As a matter of interest why do you " think " nobody should be found guilty in any of the two tragedies lfc?

xmoneyx
good start grenfell
dodgy judge appointed

How do you come to that conclusion.
His background suggests he's ideal for the position.

Because of the nature of what happened.

Could you explain what you mean by the " nature of what happened "?