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Steve Voltage
21 May 17 21:28
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Date Joined: 23 May 09
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Is it true more German soldiers died through surrender than combat?

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Replies: 57
By:
tobermory
When: 21 May 17 21:32
Wouldn't have thought so.

Plenty will have been shot when taking them prisoner seemed too much hassle i suppose but no more than other wars
By:
mecca
When: 21 May 17 21:51
Not many came back from Russia. Also Yanks were pretty brutal with them . Eisenhower, I think, hated the Germans. Didn't class them as POWs. Called them displaced persons..... Or something like that. So ignored the Geneva convention
By:
mecca
When: 21 May 17 21:53
But the Nazi scientists got the red carpet treatment
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 21 May 17 22:05
one in twenty that surrendered at stalingrad survived, they marched them through the winter snow and exposure killed a lot of them. i think it was the 6th army. i remember a documentary about it - the german general was promoted by hitler and quickly surrendered to the soviets. he negotiated the peace. i think they should have kept fighting.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 21 May 17 22:08
world at war documentary gives the tally of the dead from every nation at the end of the series. It's in the millions. that means the billions, were still generally untouched?
By:
STUDYFORM
When: 21 May 17 22:30
I wouldn't have thought so Steve, nut it is an unknown/unknowable stat.
It's true the Russians treated the German soldiers very badly - Sort of in response for the opposite happening.

I'd have thought that the cold on the Russian front would have accounted for a lot, as would the bigger battles.

Having said that, it would have been tough on the retreating troops trying to turn it in as the allies repatriated Europe.
By:
Franzi
When: 21 May 17 22:54
I agree with Study, as does Wikipedia:

.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 22 May 17 10:52
best episode of world of war about Russia fighting Germans. In it the Russians had a slogan for recruiting. - come and kill your German - awesome slogan.

in that episode - a German householder is waiting for the Russians to come to his house and possibly rape his wife and daughter. there's been bombing in his neighbours house and his neighbour and family are dead. He moves the bodies of his neighbours wife and daughter to his house and hides his wife and daughter . The Russians bust in a day later and intend to rape his family in revenge to what the Germans did in their country. They say, where is your wife and daughter? He points to the bodies. The Russians take off their caps and kneel by the bodies, with the German man, and start to pray for their souls.
By:
lfc1971
When: 22 May 17 11:12
Thank God we had leaders like Eisenhower.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 22 May 17 11:38
Russians very spiritual people - it's a shame they killed their king and went crazy commies - blame Marx and Engels.

Imagine how Russia would be if they had kept the Tsar?

i've seen enough Russian films over the years to know they aren't the enemy. The enemy is yourself. as the saying goes, you are your own worst enemy.

have a drink, go on have one.
By:
treetop
When: 22 May 17 11:38
If Ike had backed Montgomery after Dunkirk we could have ended the war in autumn 1944,saving a million or two lives. He was busy having a dirty weekend in south of france with his PA when the germans launched the battle of the bulge.
On the O.P the germans leadership brought that on their own troops by treating the Russians,Poles,etc so appallingly at the beginning so it was hardly surprising.
By:
lfc1971
When: 22 May 17 11:57
I think you will find that if it hadn't been for Ike and the Americans neither Montgomery or Britain would have ever set foot in France or Europe again.
By:
donny osmond
When: 22 May 17 11:59
had it not been for britain then ike would not have had a base
By:
lfc1971
When: 22 May 17 12:01
Yes we should be very greatful that they came.
By:
donny osmond
When: 22 May 17 12:03
more americans have been killed by guns in usa since bob kennedy was shot
than have been killed in all wars since america existed
By:
lfc1971
When: 22 May 17 12:05
yes no one should presume on the good nature of the Americans,
it's bad manners.
By:
lfc1971
When: 22 May 17 12:07
they can be quite a warlike nation, Ike Eisenhower was German after all
By:
lfc1971
When: 22 May 17 12:08
But they have such great and beautiful aspects also, unlike some nations and people
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 22 May 17 12:19
world at war said - 400,000 americans died.

4.5 million german soldiers? 12 million Russians, 400,000 british soldiers,

in total 60 million dead. 3 percent of world population at the time.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

the saying was - american money, british know how and russian blood.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 22 May 17 12:23
i looked at that wiki page - in total with civilians the Russian body count was 26 million ?
no wonder they wanted revenge on the germans.
RT news still reports on it. they do not like the Germans.
By:
lfc1971
When: 22 May 17 12:27
I think you will find it was American knowhow zorro
I remember talking to a work colleague who has been stationed on an RAF base where they were doing the first tests of the harrier jump jet, vertical take off.
There happened to be an American pilot on the base and he asked could he have a go.
He took the aircraft up , for the first time, and for the first time was able to show the British pilots the unique capabilities of this aircraft.'
He said the British pilots were stunned, think this was in the 60s
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 22 May 17 12:41
but - the british had an empire, army held lands overseas. India,china etc.
where as the usa hadn't really been fighting much, spain maybe.
they certainly built all the weapons and sold it to us - making a fortune.
I think we paid it all off just when 9/11 hit?
By:
CLYDEBANK29
When: 22 May 17 12:50
Recall my dad told me a story he'd heard from a work colleague who fought in the WW2.  Can't recall the exact details or numbers involved, but the story involves German soldiers (think it was 2) surrendering near the end of the war and being burned to death by a flame thrower by one of the British soldiers.
By:
lfc1971
When: 22 May 17 12:59
If you think the British military behaved with the same savagery as the German and Tussian troops you have something wrong.
By:
lfc1971
When: 22 May 17 13:02
not to forget the Japanese , I don't believe there were any German pows beheaded in Britain
By:
lfc1971
When: 22 May 17 13:04
Did any starve, not that I know off.
By:
lfc1971
When: 22 May 17 13:06
Did any not return home never to be seen again, I don't think so although Bert trautman stayed on to play football
By:
treetop
When: 22 May 17 18:41
Agree your point about the americans helping out lfc but WW2 was probably the first time the victors were billed for arms and supplies to such an extent that it left the British Empire bankrupt. The USA did very well out of the war economically.
By:
Ramruma
When: 22 May 17 19:03
@zorrostrikes -- the saying was - american money, british know how and russian blood.

That is the saying, and the Russian front saw First World War levels of slaughter, but I'm not entirely convinced it had a great deal to do with winning the war.

The key to the allies winning was surely Britain continuing to fight after the fall of France. We did not have to: Hitler offered peace terms, or we might have lost the Battle of Britain. If Britain had fallen, then the Americans could not have rescued Europe, so either Germany or the Soviet Union would have won and the continent would have been enslaved under a totalitarian dictatorship of one side or the other.
By:
screaming from beneaththewaves
When: 22 May 17 19:59
Don't forget that in summer 1940 a literally penniless Britain was defying Russia as well as Germany and Italy. Russia was by far the most enthusiastic and reliable ally Nazi Germany ever had. Grain, oil, raw materials, military cooperation ... whatever Nazi Germany wanted, Russians were eager to provide. But for Germany's Russian allies the British naval blockade might well have nipped WW2 in the bud before a whole continent was destroyed.

For every misery Nazi Germany heaped upon the world, Russia is complicit.

There's a passage at the start of Evelyn Waugh's wonderful Sword of Honour trilogy set in London in September 1939. The central character learns that Russia has joined its German allies in the invasion of the Polish empire, and suddenly he can see a purpose in his life.

The enemy at last was plain in view, huge and hateful, all disguise cast off. It was the Modern Age in arms. Whatever the outcome there was a place for him in that battle.
By:
STUDYFORM
When: 22 May 17 20:10
Not Russia and Germany....
Just Stalin and Hitler.

How can so few destroy the world and lives of so many?
How can so many still believe in any benevolent deities?
By:
screaming from beneaththewaves
When: 22 May 17 20:54
Are you suggesting that Stalin and Hitler and their policies didn't have the enthusiastic support of the people of Russia and Germany/Austria?

It's a horrible thing to have to acknowledge, but the fact is that both were simply exploiting trends and beliefs that already existed in their societies. It's what you have to do, if you want to build a totalitarian state. You can't impose such a state on a population unless the population is eager to embrace all the work and sacrifice involved.
By:
zorrostrikes
When: 22 May 17 21:07
benevolent deities? to whom, warmongers. to kings who wage wars.
to dictators who kill their own people. you have free choice and you
continue to vote red or blue? just to be on the winning side.
you watch banal sports that get more and more commercial and corrupt
over the years. instead of just the joy of competing you record stats?
you repeat your mistakes and call it virtue. your sanity is in question.
We have given authority to evil, we make it strong or weak.
we applaud war and call peacemakers party poopers.

as Robert Mitchum puts it in the film Anzio - we like war.
God saves those that come to him, and will not engage in the game Satan has set up.
By:
tobermory
When: 22 May 17 21:09

May 22, 2017 -- 12:27PM, lfc1971 wrote:


I think you will find it was American knowhow zorroI remember talking to a work colleague who has been stationed on an RAF base where they were doing the first tests of the harrier jump jet, vertical take off. There happened to be an American pilot on the base and he asked could he have a go.He took the aircraft up , for the first time, and for the first time was able to show the British pilots the unique capabilities of this aircraft.'He said the British pilots were stunned, think this was in the 60s


Is there a link for this ? seems pretty improbable that the British designers did not know what their aircraft could do ?

By:
tobermory
When: 22 May 17 21:09
Germany would not have been defeated without all of Britain ,America and the USSR being against them imo
By:
STUDYFORM
When: 22 May 17 21:10
Sure they did, sbtw, but the people who opposed them didn't get all the far, did they?
They also heavily used propaganda and had taken over at the end of times of severe austerity. So some of the trends and beliefs were created by them and then exploited.
It was how they cemented power for so long.

This is what's so worrying about some of the trends and beliefs which could take hold in this country (and the US) if certain politicians and sections of the media get their way.

God saves those that come to him, and will not engage in the game Satan has set up.
This is a bit of a cop out zorro. It means god(s) can never do wrong...... convenient.
By:
screaming from beneaththewaves
When: 22 May 17 21:33
Austerity doesn't lead to 10 million Ukrainians starving to death under Russian occupation any more than propaganda can incite the murder of 6 million Jews and others, unless that's what the population wants to happen.

It's the boring stuff, the guns to steal all that grain in Ukraine in 1932, and the timetables to keep the cattle trucks running smoothly from west to east in 1941, which governments can fund and organize. But the vast manpower those projects required, the willingness to work hard to ensure as many murders as possible, that required fundamental enthusiasm on the part of individuals.
By:
STUDYFORM
When: 22 May 17 21:55
I don't dispute those things.
It's just about how they controlled the power the way they did....
Night of the long knives and the gulags, being surrounded by sycophants who will do anything to keep their power in turn.

If all opposition is wiped out, the rest gets easier.

Sure the people were willing, although I suspect some were less willing than others. What could they have done about it?
Was it enthusiasm? or was it total fear fuelled indoctrination - I mean - like a Stockholm syndrome?
Would it be easy for it to happen again?
I think it would, however the will of the people is being fuelled, not like the 1930's, but nonetheless thanks to various websites, papers, deflected blame and other media, I can see how it happened before.

As a matter of interest, my uncle, a young Jewish soldier, was in one of the first troops to repatriate one of the death camps.
He's no longer with us, but I SO wish I could have asked him about it. I have the feeling he never spoke about what he witnessed.
The only time I ever saw the subject mentioned in his presence he didn't speak and his expression was something I won't forget.
By:
screaming from beneaththewaves
When: 22 May 17 22:04
Regarding your point that people who opposed these regimes didn't get all that far, how many actually did want to oppose them? Hitler came to power via the ballot box in Germany and a referendum in Austria. Germany was notoriously the only country never to have a resistance movement (apart from a handful of generals in 1944, when they realized they were on the losing side).

Who had the greater support in France - de Gaulle's Free French or Petain's Vichy government? Until 1944 I'd say Petain. I mean, French troops fought hard and shed blood against British and Commonwealth soldiers in Syria in 1941 to try and prevent the British accessing the Middle Eastern oil pipelines. In the Netherlands Anne Frank is proudly remembered, but the cooperation of much of the general population in rounding up the rest of the Dutch Jews is largely overlooked.

You didn't have to cooperate. In Denmark, where the Jewish population was evacuated to neutral Sweden, there were no reprisals. Nobody was ever forced to serve in a concentration camp. But huge numbers did.

And the inevitable follow-up to the deaths of all those Ukrainians in 1932/3? A wave of immigrants from Russia eager to take advantage of the country's sudden de-population.

I do understand the view that dictators dictate behaviour. That's what they want you to believe, after all. But I just don't see how you can do it unless you're just articulating  and facilitating what appeals to people anyway.
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