The two countries I have been to with the nicest people were both Islamic countries.

`Militants`?

I am not left either, lfc.  As far as I recall, the Tory party advocated 'Remain' for example, as did most business people and employers.  And yet, Remainers are demeaned on here as 'lefties' . 

Then again I suppose everyone is to Left of the the Far or Alt-Right.  Some of us Right wingers are increasingly embarrassed by those on our side of the spectrum.

And if you yourself are a Right Winger, were do you stand on benefits?   You would want them reduced, right?

* most of the Tory party!

`Reduced`? No, of course not! Should be stopped altogether

well I would ask what is it that embarrasses you about those on the right. In England in particular.
in England there is no right wing party in power or anyway near power for the last 50 years at least

Benefits, lfc?

I think you are confusing 'Right' with 'Far Right' btw.

Ozzy, I think remainers are viewed as being pro unlimited immigration, that was a big part of what they voted for.

It is immoral to have benefits and mass immigration. I agree with benefits under certain guidelines, also there can be no tax when there is mass immigration

'Viewed' being the operative word.  I don't think anyone is dumb enough to be pro unlimited immigration.

Anyone who thinks the tories are right wing doesn`t understand politics, life, or human nature. The fact that this is even under discussion shows how terrifingly leftie pc boll0x the UK is.

ok, lfc, to drill down into the issue, putting this issue of immigration to one side for a moment, for qualified English born people, do you think, in general, their benefits should be curbed or not?

The Tories are clearly right of centre.

Maggie would turn in her grave if she was accused of being a 'leftie'.

benefits are not an issue with me, I think under the right system they can be s good thing. It is a question of balance like everything else

Benefits and the system we have in Britain now will destroy this country

So therefore, lfc you are (far) right wing on certain issues, whilst left leaning on other issues, such as public spending. 

But hey, go ahead throwing simplistic inaccurate pigeon-hole labels like 'leftie' around in a derrogatory fashion if it makes you feel good.

Ozymandius    05 Jan 17 10:06 
'Viewed' being the operative word.  I don't think anyone is dumb enough to be pro unlimited immigration.



Corbyn and his acolytes certainly are. A remain vote was for things to stay the same, including immigration.

Maggie was somewhere around what, on a global and historical scale, would be considered one or two degrees to the right. All other tory leaders in my lifetime have been to the left of centre, regadless of what they called themselves, or where they were positioned in relation to Labour.

yes of course, it's a label but a very particular one. poverty does not worry me. I love the condition in which I live and am keen to preserve it, that's all

Benefits and the system we have in Britain now will destroy this country
No, the Tory Government and the elite fish they swim with will destroy this Country.

Saddo, even the Remainers recognise immmigration needs to be curbed, it was a big part of what Cameron was trying to achieve pre-referendum (I believe he secured a  4 year exclusion rule on  benefits of EU migrants).

Timbuctooth, I would suggest your view of the political spectrum is your personal view, dictated to by your own vantage point on the spectrum, as opposed to the conventional, broadly recognised one.

Ozy, the EU showed Cameron that curbing it was not possible, and would not allow him to deny benefits to immigrants from Europe, which is what the Germans themselves have just done. If they'd helped Cameron we would still be in. We have no control over our own borders and benefit system.

Corbyn and the leftists will not stop immigration, not in England or Germany or Europe.
They will be prepared to do anything to allow it to continue
That is the only thing that the eu are concerned about maintains in the coming negotiations
Forget about trade and security and everything else
This is what they will try to maintain

It is the British benefit claimants who deserve a little sympathy imo. Because so many want to come and take advantage of our system, the system has to be made less kind to everyone.

Ozymandius, I would suggest your view of the political spectrum is your personal view, dictated to by your own vantage point on the spectrum, as opposed to the conventional, broadly recognised one that has been in force for the last generation or so in the UK, leaving you brainwashed and blinded to what a load of boll0x it all is. Not your fault, really, but an open mind tends to help in such matters.

Saddo, you are right, what he secured had several brake clause provisions, 7 year period application limitations etc, as I recall.  Far from perfect.

They will not admit it but they must lose sleep wishing they hadn't humiliated him(and us) ozy.

I disgree, Timbuctooth, for the purposes and ease of discussion we need a standardised sense of and broad agreement on what basic terms mean.

Indeed, saddo.

timbuctooth is spot on.

How can anybody call the Tories right-wing when they support so many socialist policies?
The differences between the two main parties in these areas is only a matter of degrees.

And since Labour removed clause 4 from their aims and objectives how can they be regarded as anything other than a centralist party?

Both parties now occupy the centre ground of politics which is mainly socialistic in nature.

The working class traditional Labour voters have been historically 'right wing' on the issue of immigration.

Corbyn and his ilk are the ones that have moved away from their core vote. That core vote has remained consistent and is now looking for an alternative representation because Labour is in denial.

There was a Guy on newsnight saying Social Democracy was dead...Yes the Tory's nicked Labours policies
like the minimum wage,but they have also stolen U.K.I.P policies how else would they get into power
they are a party of Kleptomaniacs.

Never been easier to get in power here. Managed immigration is the only policy required.

The main parties are indeed grouped around the centre ground and have been for decades. It has been politically expedient to be there.

Personally I cannot categorise the current Tory party as socialistic in nature.  Right wing, for me, frm a fiscal pov, broadly means a preference for market forces over government intervention, lower taxes, reduced regulation, reduced public spending when possible.

Ozymandius 05 Jan 17 10:3
I disagree, Timbuctooth, for the purposes and ease of discussion we need a standardised sense of and broad agreement on what basic terms mean.

On this, at least, we can agree, but only until we get to the point of defining the terminology! Western Europe has become so left, so conditioned to pc-thinking, so indoctrinated, that any attempt to even discuss these things from any position other than `right-on`, leads to the perennial and inevitable name calling; `racist`, `hitler`, etc. So much so, in fact, that I`d like to commend you on your failure to resort to such cheap and erroneous accusations. Most refreshing, in fact!

The other thing, and I am lapsing into the abstract theoretical here, is that reducing immigration, is, in essence, protectionism, for the native worker.

Whereas right wing economic ideology, is all about competition and the survival of the fittest.

The reflex to build walls and thereby reduce competition for jobs, is, in many ways, socialist in nature.

Right, enough hot air from me for one day.

I think Timbuctooth, perhaps we need two spectrums, one for fiscal policy, another for Political Correctness.  The relentless rise of PCism can blurr the fact that, for example, the Tories remain significantly right of centre in a fiscal sense.

and for me, having lived and worked there and not just gone on holiday, Americans are the nicest and kindest of people that I have met.

Yes,the Americans love the Brits but if you were Mexican maybe you wouldn't receive the same welcome..

The other thing, and I am lapsing into the abstract theoretical here, is that reducing immigration, is, in essence, protectionism, for the native worker.

Whereas right wing economic ideology, is all about competition and the survival of the fittest.

The reflex to build walls and thereby reduce competition for jobs, is, in many ways, socialist in nature.

Right, enough hot air from me for one day.

Perhaps, in light of this, the Alt-Right should be renamed National Socialism..has this label ever been  used before???......sorry Timbuctooth!

I think you are right about immigration control being a `protectionist` policy, and therefore leftwing. The irony, of course, is that today`s bete noir for the left, Trump, is advocating a number of such policies, but purely because he does so in non-pc terms, he`s deemed the most extreme right-winger ever to have dared to gain power.
I do think, however, that this `protectionism` is, from a government`s point of view, a job-creating, idea; for the public, though, it`s far more of a not altogether unnatural`cultural` aversion.

Yes Ozy, i used the 'right wing' term for protectionism as the native worker to highlight how the liberals have it wrong.

They would suggest Brexiteers hold 'right wing' leanings for wanting to end free movement.
Yet historically as you allude to it is an absolute socialist ideology.

However i would not agree that wanting a visa/permit threshold is akin to building walls.

Yes, good point about the natural cultural aversion.

Getting more and more like some sort of pre -Nazi Germany idea testing.. how do we stop immigrants

Care to elaborate further Breeding mad?

Take your time.

I'm off out to get my prescription back later ...

we know the Germans were lovely people, some of them ? many of them ?, most of them ?
but they lived under an evil system. they were like puppets but they could walk and talk.

in England we can do what we want. if we look around it is nice to be apart from the rest of the world
who would deny that ?

I went to turkey once and I have to say it was not the place for me, and would prefer if it didn't come to England.
I went to Poland also once, very boring.

My boss in work asked me to go to turkey once and I said I thought I was more suited to Poland.
I heard him say later "that mr smith is useless ! " :)

that's not my name but he was talking about me, I noticed he never went to turkey

I'm off out to get my prescription back later ...


Any side effects?

Aye, delusions.

Big pharma keeping liberalism alive saddo?

Not sure he's such a liberal zen, he's said many time that we need incomers paying tax to pay our (his) pensions, Ponzi style. The fact that many come here and take more out than they put in, seems to have escaped him.

It seems his whole ideology is shot with contradictions saddo, he doesn't know his left from right.

Zen im glad to see your still with us , I thought you had been culled

too  many   folks on this rock    year 2040  be x 2

it like a bug clawing on green mould  called land

Appreciate your concern anxious, just thought the political thingy had become too tedious.

if u  look deep out space  with a powerful telscope   all suns   (stars)comes close together and     ahhh   maybe    it a one big    green mould   like a compot bin   foll of  bugs    big and  small  no matter         it all in a bubble feeded on bubbles of moulds even comets  got life   and other suns have   near earth like plants  and feed on  green moulds called land

k zen

Aye a few years ago governments were telling us over population was gonna be our nemesis, now it appears we need lots more people.

if u look closer  the air we breath    is   full of bubbles no matter how small or big lol

and  u  find millions triiion of  bugs  in  small      so think what about large  and it  there

enjoy life        to the full      have a good year 2017

One thing this post should tell us...that individuals do not all conform to their national stereotype.

We should judge people as we find them.

Just my opinion

this thread rather

Still waiting for you to elaborate to your 11:23 reply Bleeding mad

I know that i said take your time but i didn't expect you to run away. Well, ok i did expect you to run away.

If we are at war, we are encouraged to hate the enemy, expected to.

The reason for that is our soldiers are expected to kill the enemy, no good getting too pally with them.

But as I am aware we are not at war with the Muslims, unless they consider themselves at war with us?

I think we can say we are at war with Muslim Terrorists and ISIS.


I do not think protecting our borders means we at war with anybody. We can't take any more immigrants at the moment.

I think countries are allowed to protect their own borders?

you are a Muslim - until you declare you aren't.

But as I am aware we are not at war with the Muslims, unless they consider themselves at war with us?

If bombing three countries doesn't make you at war with someone, then how do you define war? Its amazing that we think we are not at war despite sending whole military units to other countries but we think there is an enemy that wants to wipe us off the earth when all that enemy manages is isolated truck rammings or sword attacks :D

De traveller seems disappointed that they cannot wreak more havoc than some " isolated truck rammings or sword attacks "

The mind that calls the slaughter of over 80 people a truck ramming is troubled.

The fact is a islam is at war with the West,their Imams keep telling us.

Western Countries have no business in the middle east.

What is it about one simple fact that so confuses lefties?
The West is not trying to rule the world, conquering every country, and subjugating the people with a `convert or be beheaded` mission. Islam is.

scandanavian_haven  • January 6, 2017 12:23 PM GMT 
Western Countries have no business in the middle east.

I agree with that. I would make an exception for ISIS that is all.
If we had not interfered in the first place, ISIS would not exist, so they need cleaning up that is all.

After that we leave them alone and maintain strict neutrality between Israel and the Arab World.

Jan 6, 2017 -- 12:22PM, wildmanfromborneo wrote:

De traveller seems disappointed that they cannot wreak more havoc than some " isolated truck rammings or sword attacks "The mind that calls the slaughter of over 80 people a truck ramming is troubled.The fact is a islam is at war with the West,their Imams keep telling us.

With all due respect, I compared the truck rammings to invasion of 3 countries.

Why don't you do the numbers of the 3 invasions and let me know? I'll be waiting.

We all agree that `leave them alone` would be a great policy. What if, however, they will not leave us alone? How and why can you not grasp this?

Firstly Islam is at war with itself.

Will the true face of Islam please stand up? Is it Shia, Sunni, Ahmaddi, Sufi..Nobody really knows.

Secondly the West inexplicably used 9/11 as an excuse to finish Papa Bush's business in Iraq, invade Afghan and then remove Gadaffi.

Most probably driven by oil and a long term perceived threat from Iran (look on a map at who's the meat in the Iraq/Afghan sarnie).

Did the West callously disregard the lives of thousands of Muslims? Yes. Would they have been so callous if the victims were white Europeans? No.

You don't have to be a violent preaching Imam or a raging conspiracy theorist to be a little angry with Western aggression..

Who is denying that? I am just saying we have poked our noses in places we shouldn't have. And we are just seeing the reactions of that. I just don't understand the people who blame it on a book.

What is the explanation for letting a million of the same people in when we are agreed on the fact that they all want to kill us? Why is it so dificult for people to understand that our govts have tried everything they can to make sure the 'enemy' is alive and kicking and yet there are people here who believe its all because of the book. Why have the turkish muslims living in Germany since 50 years never tried to follow the book? Why have we never seen them beheading german people? Why is it that only those people from a certain region do the beheadings? And they weren't even there before we invaded the region!

There are people here who believe that an afghan, Iraqi and a libyan will need inspiration from a book to hate the west! Amazing.

detraveller 06 Jan 17 13:35 
I just don't understand

Enough said

The Hadith teaches martydom in a Jihad against the unbelievers as a prefered choice. Mohammed called for it. He wants his followers to 'go to where death is most likely'.

The fact that most Muslims ignore him is of no consolation.

For western govts to invite followers of Mohammed to live among them is beyond stupid.

Jan 6, 2017 -- 1:42PM, Injera wrote:

The Hadith teaches martydom in a Jihad against the unbelievers as a prefered choice. Mohammed called for it. He wants his followers to 'go to where death is most likely'.The fact that most Muslims ignore him is of no consolation. For western govts to invite followers of Mohammed to live among them is beyond stupid.

I did read somewhere that serving your parents in old age is better than martyrdom in Jihad. But that's not even relevant here. Your last statement is bang on target.

There is a cult living in in the middle east that says every person betting on betfair should be killed.

Betfair destroys their country, invites them to Europe, and makes them sit right next to the betfair users when they are betting.

Do you blame the cult or betfair?

Both detraveller! You know wasps sting so why upset them and then let them nest in your house?

I would argue that it's a little too trite to suggest Muslims want revenge. Some do, others want to follow Mohammed all the way to an Islamic domination of the world regardless of what other countries have done to them.

We've no doubt given them a leg up. Revenge is a powerful motive indeed. But when we look at other wars, The Japs got on with rebuilding their nation and the Vietnamese prefer the Americans to the French!

What stands out with the 'refugees' coming to Europe is that a large number appear utterly ungrateful, even to Germany who had little or nothing to do with Iraq etc!

Some cultures are better than others. Ours was worth preserving...

Sahih Bukhari (52:54) - The words of Muhammad: "I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred." This is why modern-day Jihadists often say that they love death.

Sahih Muslim (20:4655) - A man asks Muhammad "which of men is the best?" Muhammad replies that it is the man who is always ready for battle and flies into it "seeking death at places where it can be expected."

As the Ayatollah Khomeini put it, "The purest joy in Islam is to kill and be killed for Allah."

what a tremendous success W.Germany and Japan made of building a new countries after WW2.
Of course that was when they were being told what to do by America.
Nevertheless they build very beautiful countries and the people of Japan and Germany deserve great credit for that.

Germany and Japan were both countries who were bombed because of their aggression. They had the poeple to reach that stage where they could dominate and threaten others(however negative or bad that is), Afg, Iraq and Libya did not threaten us. Afg was invaded because some saudi arabian guys did 9/11. Iraq was invaded because they had weapons that were never found. Libya was invaded for God knows what. Its hard for countries to rebuild when they have been destroyed for no reason, especially when they weren't well off and capable of progress at the first place. The arabs have all the wealth in the world yet they haven't done anything useful with it. We cannot expect them to progress after we've bombed them into an outright civil war.

We could spend a fraction of the amount we spend on wars to defend ourselves against any aggressor. But that does not make the weapons manufacturers rich and that my friend is the bottomline. They need the enemy to be closer to home so they can justify the spendings they do to bomb the enemy thousands of miles away.

well all those countries have missed out on the chance to build a peaceful country, perhaps they should learn to listen and not run around like lunatics ?

that would be a start in the right direction, it worked in Germany and Japan so it's not as if they don't have good models to follow

timbuctooth  • January 6, 2017 1:26 PM GMT 
We all agree that `leave them alone` would be a great policy. What if, however, they will not leave us alone? How and why can you not grasp this?

They did leave us alone, until we started interfering in their countries.
Middle Eastern countries were never a threat to the West. They do not or never had any weapons to threaten us with.

However since we insisted in interfering we now have a serious Terrorist threat, from the Moslems we have allowed into
our own society.

I think Western governments are morons.

Western governments also seriously lack any integrity, far too many lies.

we are to kind, if that is the way we can expect them to behave they shouldn't be allowed in Europe.
who would deny that ?

Perhaps they are running to Russia to live now ? I don't know

they keep running west, and even to America. very strange

ebulGery 06 Jan 17 14:39 
They did leave us alone, until we started interfering in their countries.
Middle Eastern countries were never a threat to the West.

You`re right about one thing, in general, at least; Middle Eastern countries aren`t threatening us, but certain elements within islam are, and it just so happens that many of those elements are in control of those Middle Eastern countries!

Other than that, well up to our usual standards of blinkeredness

^^^not `our usual standards`, but `your usual standards`

The war in Iraq was madness.

The West should just arm and finance Israel and let them look after the region.

One thing the Israelis know they keep getting attacked but manage to repel and defeat their attackers but the day they lose is the day they will all be slaughtered.
That concentrates the mind and makes them good soldiers.

The West should just arm and finance Israel

what? that's not what happens already?

It is but I mean give them extra funding and more arms.

Israel unites the Middle East -  the one country ALL the others hate