Britain's Hardest Workers - Inside the Low Economy Wage BBC 2

I think we need to teach a work ethic in this country, so all children from an early age

will know they have a duty to society to work.

All we teach is competition and everything is about money.

I never did understand why the left supported immigration???????????????????????????????

I think it's an international / intellectual thing.

Capital can cross borders at the click of a button so why can't Labour?

This position may well fk over your core supporters, but then logical consistency isn't a left-wingers strong suit.

Some of us would be protectionists over capital as well as labour. Remember that was the core of the anti-EU policies of the Labour Party in the early 80s.

Strangely, I don't remember any mention of working tax credits in the programme.

Strange timing for the programme. I thought all GB medal winners at the Olympics were Britain's hardest workers. Make your minds up bbc.

Take a look at the Anyone on here ever lived or still lives in Eastern Europe? thread on here for a prime example of British youth. 26 years old, still lives at home, virtually unemployed (whatever that means), now wants to go from poncing off his parents to poncing around Eastern Europe then back to poncing off his parents. Most employers round here go directly to Eastern Europe for workers and who can blame them?

Same twunt, holier than thou, responses as ever on here.

It couldn't be that the situation is awful for millions of low paid workers could it?
It couldn't be that the fault might lie with successive governments, globalisation and the desire by those with money to make and keep it all for themselves could it?
It couldn't be that the cost of living is about the highest in the world and ridiculous rents and bills mean people can't manage could it?
It couldn't be that there is little or no union voice for the majority of workers could it?
It couldn't be that zero hours contracts are intrinsically unfair and basically wrong, could it

Sure the BBC is doing the PC thing - Asian woman presenter and the complete cross section of 'contestants' for a type of misplaced 'reality challenge' - but this doesn't make them lefties (again, whatever that means).

The simple fact is that if poor people were presented with reasonable amounts of money then it would circulate and travel through the system, including in all the various forms of tax we all pay. Instead governments give it (by way of quantitative easing) to banks who either keep it or give it to those who already have loads.

We are now SO close to the Victorian systems championed by government of 30 years ago, it's terrifying.

Those who earn too much for doing mostly thuck all think wages are an evil and wouldn't dream of doing a fraction of what the poor sods on this programme (and millions like them) are forced into doing, especially for the amount they earn.

Still, as long as the share holders (not mostly pension funds and almost entirely already relatively people) are happy, eh?

As for tax credits.... very little for those with no kids.

the 1 percent get richer and the poor get poorer.  MUGS!!

Tonight they were picking veg and also processing food (ready made meals)if anyone still eats these  meals insteading of cooking them the old fashion way this prog should have changed their mind.

what struck me about the two episodes I have watched were the undertones from the factory manager that he found the casualisation of work abhorrent, and the sickening apologism from the economics journalists.

It seems quite obvious to me that the influx of eastern europeans has allowed employers to exploit low paid workers. It's not just about the pay and what is expected for that level of pay, it's about a complete lack of representation, zero hour contracts, paying for travel expenses to have a chance of being given work (last night's episode), etc. Essentially an employer having pretty much everything their way, because their employees let them.

It's not that immigrants have taken our jobs, the jobs are still there, it's that employers have recognised that they can completely f*ck over the immigrant workforce and by and large, they are the only ones who will tolerate it.

People might like to point their fingers at immigrants, but it's staggeringly obvious that it's the employers who've made it this way.

The point to take from this, is that the workers aren't being represented.

If fact the people who claim to represent them are selling them down the river.

These are the Labour party and their self serving MPS. Along with the rich union officials who themselves are  doing very nicely thank you.

Poorly paid workers are poorly paid for a very good reason. I won't spell it out.

unbelievable!!!!

There aren't many people who would say it's Labour's fault that workers have no representation.

Aug 24, 2016 -- 2:05PM, DStyle wrote:

what struck me about the two episodes I have watched were the undertones from the factory manager that he found the casualisation of work abhorrent, and the sickening apologism from the economics journalists.It seems quite obvious to me that the influx of eastern europeans has allowed employers to exploit low paid workers. It's not just about the pay and what is expected for that level of pay, it's about a complete lack of representation, zero hour contracts, paying for travel expenses to have a chance of being given work (last night's episode), etc. Essentially an employer having pretty much everything their way, because their employees let them. It's not that immigrants have taken our jobs, the jobs are still there, it's that employers have recognised that they can completely f*ck over the immigrant workforce and by and large, they are the only ones who will tolerate it.People might like to point their fingers at immigrants, but it's staggeringly obvious that it's the employers who've made it this way.

Very true.

Bloke I know got a job, through an agency (and therein lies some blame, btw) to take down tents/marquees etc. Been working on the dismantling of the V festival. Only non-eastern European there. Team leader (English) lets them had no break all day "You're not paid to take breaks" and wouldn't even let them drink some water "You're paid to work, not drink". I'd have shoved the water bottle up his arse, but the people are SO desperate to earn anything they put up with the bullying. His Mrs phoned the agency who got him the job, they promised to look into it (yeah, right!) - I'll know more tomorrow.

Flooding the job markets at that level with immigrants is the problem.

I have no sympathy with these unqualified low paid. They are there for a reason. If they are not happy just go and get another job.  Plenty of jobs in the city RBS etc all hiring at the moment as we float on the top of a near bull market.
Go and buy a few clothes shops and screw your employees for their pensions - and mae a fortune.
Its all good fun

Then again,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

That, mobo, is unfortunately the view of the media, the government and the banks, because they all think everyone is like they are and mostly do M-F 9-5.30 in an office.

I think Dstyle got that right, akabula. Spiv employers (and this includes big employers) are actively seeking out the cheapest labour and taking advantage of it.

Dr Crippen is right. The Labour party and the unions have brought about this mess by their policy of mass immigration.
They have welcomed it and are determined that it will continue.

The Polish government, and others have failed in their duty to plan and invest in jobs for their own population. No they send them to Britain, they must think the British people are mugs.

Yes that's how it happens......

If the Amazons of this world (as mentioned by manager of latest job) paid all their tax and had to charge full price for their goods, then the level playing field might help fairer employment conditions.

This programme seems to be mainly showing how it is and not judging, my biggest issue with it is the BBC turning it into a sort of Masterchef competition.

lfc1971  • August 24, 2016 6:57 PM BST 
Dr Crippen is right. The Labour party and the unions have brought about this mess by their policy of mass immigration.
They have welcomed it and are determined that it will continue.

I have not noticed any reduction in immigration since the Tories came back into power into 2010?

That is because it suits them, it forces the wages of the poor down, the rich get richer.

The truth is the World has not recovered from the Credit Crunch, there is recession everywhere, worse in some places than others.

We need war, plague or famine. It was WWII which ended the world wide recession caused by the 1929 Wall Street Crash.

The only way Labour or Conservative could have stopped immigration was by coming of the EU. Labour should have taken us out

in 2001 when Eastern European countries were allowed to join the EU(against its own rules). The only thing we get from them is people.

Did the documentary mention that minimum wage in the UK converts into national average back home in Poland?

No surprise that the Polish are more keen to slave away at minimum wage. That £7 or so an hour in the UK, converts into plenty of Zloty.
You can pack boxes in the UK and you are earning as much as a teacher back in Poland.

And living the life of riley, or being exploited, ZenMaster?

That is true Zenmaster, Poland are poorer than us, that is why their workers come here.

Nobody got rich under communism.

1 per cent get very rich here though - aren't we lucky!!

Only if we are in the 1 per cent Mobo, I am not

What was for ages "Blame the Benefits Scroungers for all the country's ills" is now "Blame the immigrants for all the country's ills".
Does it not occur that the Poles and others living here are spending here not spending the Zloty and they don't get to save much now, do they?

You can certainly fool most of the people some of the time and that is just what the government does. Ad Nauseum.

Divide and rule, and more of the same while they live in the Westminster bubble and so many others do their dirty work (spread the word) via forums, newspapers, social media and crap TV and radio.

And living the life of riley, or being exploited, ZenMaster?


Many have a smash and grab short term mentality.
Work here for 3/4 years, in shared accommodation, save up and head off back home with enough money for a deposit on a flat.

UK workers don't have this option.

The Poles live very cheaply here. There is a house I know has 14 of them, they must swap beds when they go on or come off shift.

The Poles work all right, but if they work, our guys don't. I know how hard our construction workers have been hit.

Not sure people are blaming immigrants, nobody can blame them on coming,  they are pointing the finger at the people who decided to let so many cheap workers into the country.

Exactly Sonko, explaining how the system works and who benefits is not 'blaming' anyone.

I would do the same if i was Polish and in the same boat.

£7 an hour here, equates to £12 an hour in Poznan.

UK workers could share 14 to a flat if they wanted, and swap beds after shifts if they wanted.
I can't help thinking there is an element of urban myth about this. Like the stories of benefit scroungers with 5 bedroom houses and free cars etc etc.

I agree, I Sonk. But I think you'll find they are.
From the Chinese cockle pickers to the Amazon workers to Poundland, people are being exploited, wherever they're from. The fault lies in loads of places.

Mostly greedy big business practice though, I think.
The accountants and junior managers trying to make a name for themselves and to save the company some money and the attitude that wages are a necessary evil and not used as a resource or respected.

lets see just how hard working and talented these workers are, how is Poland managing to survive without them?
Perhaps the Polish government would welcome them back now we are leaving Europe, i am sure we will soon see the Kingdom of Poland.

We cannot STOP immigration while we are in the EU.

If we come out the EU we lose access to the single European market.

We are between a rock and hard place here.

I don't know for sure our government will even honour the referendum.

UK workers could share 14 to a flat if they wanted, and swap beds after shifts if they wanted.


Would that be progress Studyform?

You may be aware that a majority of singletons arrive from Poland, their situation is rather different to the UK lower paid.
Agencies will organise accommodation for the new arrivals.

You need to do your homework Studyform.

I agree Zen, they are single blokes, used to having it rough.

There is no reason that workers in Poland should not live 15 to a house?

Average wage in Poland is 10k average wage over here is 30k ... there is the difference.

We are told embrace immigration by rich people (mainly in London) and share holders of companies so they can keep wages low and profits high.

true!

I do not see the point in coming to England and living 15 to a house when you could do the same in Poland.

You £ goes a long way when exchanged for Zloty lfc.

As pointed out, you earn £10K in the UK,and you are earning the national average in Poland.

Do the same job in Poland and earn 60% the national average

What are they buying food with, zen? Or their rent or travel, Zloty?
I doubt it. You need to do yours.

These are people on minimum wage, Hamsterdam, about £12k a year
so not much room to get rich is there?

yes, i suspected that might have something to do with it, and Poland is so poor.
its hard to explain when it has such industrious and talented workers

btw, The agencies take even bigger pish out of these people than the employers.

Also, and this is most important - conditions for low paid workers from all places (Brits included) are very poor.
Just like Victorian times. When there were no foreign employees.

Also and this is quite important.
The companies employing many poorly paid people are not British, and pay no tax in Britain either.

You are missing the point Studyform, If they save up £300 a month by over sharing their accommodation, that will equate to over £400 a month.

Then as singletons, they will qualify for working tax credits for their first year, if index linking their previous years earning back in Poland.
A UK worker earning minimum wage the previous tax year and working full time will not qualify.

but then conditions for lower paid jobs were not always so bad. there was the greatest increase in standard of living for the working and middle classes in Britain between 1950 and 1980.
greater almost than at any time in history, and any country

You are right lfc1971 we have seen a great increase in our standard of living.

But these times may be coming to an end.

Don't believe the official unemployment figure. Many people, including some I know, claim no benefit.

JSA is incredibly tough. They survive other ways, picking up work here and there, working on contract, minimum wage.

We have a baby boom coming.

I am now a pensioner but did not work for a long time before that,reasons I cannot go into.

I have enough to survive but support someone else as well, a friend and her husband.

It is getting tougher and tougher, our society is growing more vicious, who knows where it will end.

For Christ sake bring back smoking!

Sorry Zen, I think you are confusing making a little bit of money over a 3 or 4 year period, if all goes well and you work your nuts off 1000 miles from home with bucking the system and getting rich from it - like some at the other end of the wage divide are able to do.
Anyone would think it was like being a British bricklayer in Germany in the late 80's or something!

Yes lfc, until 1980..... the 1st year of the demise. The beginning of the end for manufacturing, mining, unions and so on. A potential link spotted there, I think.

true studyform.

yes i agree with that Studyform. But also until we address the question of mass immigration with some honesty we will continue to decline, and this decline will get quicker.

The German bricklayers were also doing well Studyform.

The UK low skilled are not.

These are people on minimum wage, Hamsterdam, about £12k a year
so not much room to get rich is there?

But 10k is the average wage over there that's including Doctors, Lawyers etc. The unskilled workers would be on 4 or 5k approx if they are lucky.

Takes the Poles from Sport Direct Warehouse (as an example) they wouldn't be able to get the staff from the UK on the minimum wage. They'd be forced to pay more. They'd still make profit, just not as much.

Yes lfc, until 1980..... the 1st year of the demise. The beginning of the end for manufacturing, mining, unions and so on. A potential link spotted there, I think.

Remember 'The Boys from teh Blackstuff', Yosser Hughes, the Miners strike.
We destroyed a whole class of working men and their communities.

But we were optimistic then, and did ok until the Credit Crunch.
This is far worse now, it has hit everybody.

We want women to work, making it even more competitive. How much competition can we stand?

I do not know the answer. Frankly we need a lot less people in this country and the World!

But they're earning here and like the rest of us spending it here. Rent (especially in London) is exorbitant, food, travel, clothes etc etc almost certainly means not much left to send home or to keep. But I do completely agree that employers (and agencies) are the most culpable.

Low wages are not enough to live on, Unemployment money is even less, food banks have to feed millions, basic services are being cut, the national debt is actually 1.5 trillion!!! (doubled in 6 years) and the majority of the population is at the throats of the poor (most lately immigrant poor) instead of those who really cause the problems.

Since 2001 we have increased our population by 5 million, due to immigration.

This is too many!

The Credit Crunch has exacerbated everything,

Debt is the problem everywhere Studyform, that was the Credit Crunch.

when I was a furniture mover I took with me two tee shirts as spares
to change into - I sweated so much. try lifting furniture 8 hours a day.
up and down three flights of stairs. Every day for twelve years.

This foreign worker superman mythology is total bull sheet.

Moved safes
thousands of pianos
a few anvils - one by myself.
chandeliers
OG drawers - OG, because you cried O God when you lifted them up.
Garden Statues from estates.

Debt is the problem everywhere Studyform, that was the Credit Crunch.


The Polish were not foolish enough to spend tomorrows labour, today.
They have a different attitude and will find a way to save up.

No doubt, ebul, 8% population increase is not helpful. but I contend our problems are more than 8% worse.
So much business has been sold (or allowed to thrive) by the governments to foreign investment and so little tax paid (Amazon, Starbucks, Google, eBay and so on) by them and other corporations (there weren't many corporations of this size before 30 years ago), that the 8% extra needed for infrastructure could have easily been covered.

There is evidently a tax shortfall of billions pounds from these companies over the past few years.

I cannot accept, ZenMaster, that the Polish minimum wage workforce in the UK is responsible for low wages, poverty, high rents and all the other problems we face. The blame game is something Govt and its media puppets are good at.

As a matter of interest.
The Co-op paid £82million in tax last year.

Amazon, Apple, eBay, Starbucks and Facebook paid a combined total of £52million.
I know who I'm more angry about!

I cannot accept, ZenMaster, that the Polish minimum wage workforce in the UK is responsible for low wages, poverty, high rents and all the other problems we face. The blame game is something Govt and its media puppets are good at.


Accept? who has suggested this?

The system is to blame, not the individuals Study.

I agree studyform
there is no excuse for the tax situation......

No it is not all the Poles, the Credit Crunch is the biggest culprit.

Everything will hang together, as long as we and other countries can pay the interest on debts

When we or others cannot, then that is bankruptcy, I hope I am gone by then.

My only solution is less people in our country, less people everywhere.
Which is the exact opposite of what is happening

When we or others cannotShocked, then that is bankruptcy, I hope I am gone by then.


Gone, as in snuffed it?
Is bankruptcy worse than death now?

Poles saving to buy Polish Houses money sent back ,A lot of them got the Lot registering Child Births in this Country ,Child allowance paid to them back in Poland ,Some are interested in Living
in this country Long term but I would not say that many ,As stated if your Paying a oner rent a month  then Minimum wage is a decent enough wage ..

The Remainers seem to think that the Brexiters blame the Polish and other EU national migrants for wage stagnation, high rents etc.

I would say that the economic crash was the injury, and an over supply of foreign labour the insult to that injury.

The public are sick and tired of big corporates not paying their fair share in tax, it seems global firms and governments are in cahoots in stitching up the average person or small company, think brexit told us that people were sick of low tax globalisation and migration.

Some companies pay lots of tax, sse paid over £400m in tax last year.

I would say that the economic crash was the injury, and an over supply of foreign labour the insult to that injury.

That is well put Zenmaster

agree Ibrahima

Should be a Point of Consumption rule on all taxation.

certainly needs to be a way of them avoiding tax aka, and guess what, global companies would still want to sell to a country that takes tax out of there hands, but big governments are scared and there future employment.

Another problem our workers have, is that the universal World language is English...because of the USA.

So most people in other countries will learn English language as their 2nd language, but for our people to go and work in European countries

there are any number of languages we need to learn, depending where we go.

I had a vague offer of a job in Germany when I was younger, I started to learn Germany but this was before the Internet

so I gave up, there were no betting shops in Germany

I think global companies will do business here, as long we do not tax all their profit. It is in their interest.

I see no need for letting them off tax, that is disgusting!

We cannot STOP immigration while we are in the EU.

we can stop half but dont...

the argument re employing educated skilled workers from outside the eu doesnt wash with me.
a simpler idea would be to encourage students to further their education by pumping more money in instead of charging uni fees etc.....and fill the better jobs with those.

its a cheap way fo running the economy...just as bad as employers who employ people on low wages.

problem is its gone on for so long now a reversal will cause a big problem....the low wages side that is.

even pumping money into education for school leavers would need to come from somewhere.

we are stuck..

what gives?

The Co-op paid £82million in tax last year.

Amazon, Apple, eBay, Starbucks and Facebook paid a combined total of £52million.
I know who I'm more angry about!

that will only get worse imo.

they need to increase corporation tax but lowered it to try to get foreign investment.........

the argument re employing educated skilled workers from outside the eu doesnt wash with me.


What difference should it make from where they come from?

come on guys we are just being screwed by the bosses

Today on Red Button

Poland most common non-UK birth country

Poland has overtaken India as the most common non-UK country of birth for people in the UK

Immigration 327,000 for the year to March. Consistent since 2001, we get 1 million immigrants every 3 years..

This will continue while we stay in the EU.

There was a farmer on the news last week claiming the country would be finished if he couldn't get his cheap foreign labour to pick his cauliflowers and cabbages. Leaning on his Range Rover talking to the reporter making all sorts of unsubstantiated claims of impending disaster if a contract and fair wage had to be supplied.

The low wage thing is cods wallop.
If the wages were higher then the goods and services prices would be higher.
So the lower paid are still in same boat.

I see that Callisto-moon, but I still want a fair minimum wage and work for everybody in this country.

We should tax the rich a little more, or at least ensure they pay their tax they are currently required to.

It is a compromise I accept.

I am not asking for a communist republic.

there has been a surge in Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants it would seem, remember Keith Vaz mocking UKIP's predictions because only 1 had turned up when they were eligible to enter the UK? smarmy **** sitting at an airport drinking coffee with a Romanian immigrant, the ONS  estimate that as of last year there are around 250,000 of them here now. May is believed to be considering sending back all those who are not performing skilled labour.

Construction industry stopped training people because there was an ample supply of EU workers that could be ditched at the drop of a hat and paid substantially less.

lfc1971
24 Aug 16 20:14
Joined: 06 Nov 11
| Topic/replies: 8,558 | Blogger: lfc1971's blog
yes i agree with that Studyform. But also until we address the question of mass immigration with some honesty we will continue to decline, and this decline will get quicker.


Just imagine lfc1971, without immigration into the new world, your wonderful, beloved USA would never have existed.

^ this one`s an idiot.

alias quite hasn't gr5asped what immigration means.

Alias why you avoiding the politics forum? Anything to do with the GERS figures?

I hear dear Nicky is 15 billion down.

Grossly exaggerated says Nicki, it's only £14.8 billion.
However on the plus side tractor sales are up for the 23nd year running.

*2nd

There is no easy solution.

I have down absolutely loads of low paid/minimum wage jobs.  Pretty much without exception they were harder than the better paid jobs I have had.  But they lacked skill or responsibility.  Kind of obvious really, watching it now.

Has been a very interesting week's viewing, rob. Presented quite fairly with opinions of people in many fields from many organisations with no real political attachments.

Some interesting facts from it too.
eg, only 1 in 4 minimum wage workers ever get the chance to get a wage rise or promotion.

This is the first episode I have watched, and only vaguely. Minimum wage increases are the simplest and most effective solution imo.  I prefer that to tax credits or something similar.  That and, of course making the cost of housing less.  Housing benefits is a sh1t, admission of defeat.  Houses and rents are too expensive, I largely blame the labour govt 1997-2007 for that.

I, as you know, put the blame on the 18 years before that - as well as the 97-07 continuation of the same.
It's all been said earlier in the thread, rob.
Certainly the amount of expendable income after rent/council tax/bills (let's not forget the cost to all of us for privatisation) remaining in any wage packet is too low.
The cost of roof over head is ridiculous.
Every day were reverting to Victorian ways and means. It's frightening.

*we're not were