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18 Jul 16
21:02
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04 Jul 15
leopard watching something else
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Our intelligence services were not very intelligent.....failure of the public school system.
indeed.
no matter how many serious programmes i see about this i cant get away from blackadder with a quote along the lines 'oh well another 60 thousand men have to die to get haigh's drinks cabinet three feet closer to paris' or something similar.
one of my english teachers lovced first world war poetry, many of the writers died in battle.
madness.
no matter how many serious programmes i see about this i cant get away from blackadder with a quote along the lines 'oh well another 60 thousand men have to die to get haigh's drinks cabinet three feet closer to paris' or something similar.
one of my english teachers lovced first world war poetry, many of the writers died in battle.
madness.
Rockstar early death syndrome.....they can't make a fool of themselves later.
didnt expect that from you leopard.
what would each of us write, knowing some upper class **** was sending us to mcertain death?
what would each of us write, knowing some upper class **** was sending us to mcertain death?
when i see old black and white film i think 'how many of these men survived?'
It doesn't matter how many ww1 docs I watch I still struggle to suppress my anger and sadness that so many fine men, including members of my family were sent over the top to walk straight into the machine guns.
Why didn't they attack round the line ....up the coast?
leopard thats unlike you, i dont care what class they were, they were were sent to death by a bunch of imbeciles.
walking into machine gun fire, the whole thing just seems so stupid.
walking into machine gun fire, the whole thing just seems so stupid.
The elites lead those men to their death....the poets were from the elites I would reckon.
surely most of the elite were behind lines giving orders, leaving the lower classes to be slaughtered?
surely plenty of time, probably too much, to be left with time to be left thinking of certain death?
They had their officers amongst the men.....who would prevent them turning and running from the obvious carnage.
dont you like their prose leopard, i thought you would?
allied brutality? not surprising really, war brings out the worst in humans.
underestimation of medical requirements and as a result a countless number died who may have been saved.
i cant believe its only me and you discussing this leo.
i cant believe its only me and you discussing this leo.
I have heard snippets but never been a big fan of poetry......our poetry are the lyrics contemporary music.
What age are you.....I'm guessing older than my 57....may have a bearing
im no big fan of poetry either but in my first year at big school we had a teacher who loved france and what had gone on in there abouts. it is really moving to hear peoms written by men who died not long after they wrote their stuff.
its all about mans inhumanity to man, we never seem to learn.
its all about mans inhumanity to man, we never seem to learn.
leo i feel suicidal now old boy, partly tinged with laughter.
i'm 47 born in this country but with irish parents so no lover of nationalism but feel lucky to live in this country. born in kent and fortunate to have been to grammar school but feel sorry for those who never made it to decent schools.
never been a great consumer or worried about careers and finance or keeping up with the jones.
i'm 47 born in this country but with irish parents so no lover of nationalism but feel lucky to live in this country. born in kent and fortunate to have been to grammar school but feel sorry for those who never made it to decent schools.
never been a great consumer or worried about careers and finance or keeping up with the jones.
My grandparents were miners in the North-East so do not have a direct connection to the slaughter
They both died early of Pneumoconiosis though.
I don't like to dwell on the negative ...it is not good for your soul......always look on the bright side of life !
They both died early of Pneumoconiosis though.
I don't like to dwell on the negative ...it is not good for your soul......always look on the bright side of life !
Just thought you may be older as you are interested in WWI
sorry leo, maybe superficial interest as it just seems so stupid to walk at machine guns. economics is my thing more than history. that poetry just seems so touching when you know the authors were often killed not long after writing their stuff.
i want to be the nosey one now
where did you grow up and where's your education from?
i want to be the nosey one now
where did you grow up and where's your education from?
do you still live there as well? a lovely part of the country imo and you must prefer nh to the flat?
Bloody hell another "I learned my ww1 history from blackadder" fred 
I lived there for 28 years.....and have now lived in Ealing for 25 years....and I prefer NH to the flat
i didnt say that at all. what i said is it raises a very strong point which you havent rebuffed.
ww1 poetry is very moving imo.
ww1 poetry is very moving imo.
Some points missing about the "walkign into machine guns" is firstly they were weighed down heavily with kit (weapon, helmet, ammo, grenades, extra ammo) etc which I believe came to about 30kg. I'd like to see how fast you'd run over mud in boots carrying 30kg and what state you'd be in after 50 yards. Secondly they also used creeping barrages so the point was to move at a defined pace behind it as if you overshot it you'd be hit by your own shells. Thirdly re the "class" thing, from what I've read the middle/upper classes actually took higher casualties than the enlisted men as officers (apart from the Darling's of the world) tended to lead attacks and were targeted first. And unfortunately AFAIK stood out as they had different uniform, carried revolvers etc. For example: 5,660 from Eton went to war, 1,157 were killed, that's more than 20%.
I think they initially thought it would work. I don't think the generals were deliberately trying to kill their own men. Otherwise why fire 1.5 million shells first. Apparently it was such an incredible barrage the men thought it would work. But they learned from their mistakes and changed tactics, especially when they got and worked out how to use tanks etc.
i'm no historian but it seems to me it took them a long time to learn from their mistakes?
leo, how the hell did you end up in ealing?
leo, how the hell did you end up in ealing?
Re why didn't they go around they stretched from switzerland to the sea, there was no "going round" as such.
The british focus mentally on that area the british covered around Belgium which was only a fraction of it, the French were facing off with and fighting the Germans all the way down the east of their country.
The british focus mentally on that area the british covered around Belgium which was only a fraction of it, the French were facing off with and fighting the Germans all the way down the east of their country.
Yes Haig thought that after an incredible 7 day barrage there would not be a German left alive, he got that badly wrong.
Haig's second in command Rawlinson urged a more cautious approach, but Haig over ruled him.
The French to the South of the British made good ground as did the British in the South.
The Germans were more experienced and professional all round than our boys. Our boys died bravely, though no shortage of courage.
This battle was where we found out what the First World War was really about.
Haig's second in command Rawlinson urged a more cautious approach, but Haig over ruled him.
The French to the South of the British made good ground as did the British in the South.
The Germans were more experienced and professional all round than our boys. Our boys died bravely, though no shortage of courage.
This battle was where we found out what the First World War was really about.
Our men were told to march steadily towards the enemy keeping in line
as all the Germans would be dead
Our troops needed to running as fast as they could, the Germans were very much alive.
as all the Germans would be dead
Our troops needed to running as fast as they could, the Germans were very much alive.
The series continued with the assault on the 2nd line of German trenches.
Woods, ridges, farm houses become major battles as the terrible slaughter continues.
There is a terrible sacrifice by British Empire troops Canadians, Australians even an Indian Cavalry Regiment.
The Germans themselves start to suffer from the terrible cost of Human Life, which was the point of this battle.
To take the pressure off the French at Verdun
German Commander Falkenhayn is replaced by Hindenberg and Ludendorf who device a more flexible defence strategy for the Germans
using deeper defence positions.
This was a war dominated by defence. It was so terribly costly in human beings to attack entrenched positions.
Woods, ridges, farm houses become major battles as the terrible slaughter continues.
There is a terrible sacrifice by British Empire troops Canadians, Australians even an Indian Cavalry Regiment.
The Germans themselves start to suffer from the terrible cost of Human Life, which was the point of this battle.
To take the pressure off the French at Verdun
German Commander Falkenhayn is replaced by Hindenberg and Ludendorf who device a more flexible defence strategy for the Germans
using deeper defence positions.
This was a war dominated by defence. It was so terribly costly in human beings to attack entrenched positions.
It tells us how long it takes flies to devour an unburied human corpse. Not that I would have wanted to know
The assault on the 3rd German line of defence.
We see a couple of new ideas by ourselves, the debut of the tank, and the creeping barrage. The tank initially terrified the Germans,
but at this stage were unreliable and too heavy. They rarely lasted more than a day and could become bogged down in mud.
The creeping barrage just in front of our troops frequently got out of synchronization with the troops. So could fall short or fall
too far in advance.
The Germans for their part continue to develop their flexible strength in depth, and introduced Storm Troopers. These were especially
trained elite troops who would immediately counter attack any British gains.
The battlefield is now nothing but mud making it very hard for the troops, and the battle drifts to a close at the end of 1916.
The maximum gain was 6 miles, no breakthrough of the German lines.
This cost well over 400,000 British and Commonwealth losses, over 200,000 French losses, up to 400,000 German losses.
Well over a million men killed, missing or wounded for a mere 6 miles.
The term heroes led by donkeys could be applied. For Hague and the British a painful learning experience.
The German seem more professional here...intelligence and interrogation of prisoners much better than the British(no torture used).
We see a couple of new ideas by ourselves, the debut of the tank, and the creeping barrage. The tank initially terrified the Germans,
but at this stage were unreliable and too heavy. They rarely lasted more than a day and could become bogged down in mud.
The creeping barrage just in front of our troops frequently got out of synchronization with the troops. So could fall short or fall
too far in advance.
The Germans for their part continue to develop their flexible strength in depth, and introduced Storm Troopers. These were especially
trained elite troops who would immediately counter attack any British gains.
The battlefield is now nothing but mud making it very hard for the troops, and the battle drifts to a close at the end of 1916.
The maximum gain was 6 miles, no breakthrough of the German lines.
This cost well over 400,000 British and Commonwealth losses, over 200,000 French losses, up to 400,000 German losses.
Well over a million men killed, missing or wounded for a mere 6 miles.
The term heroes led by donkeys could be applied. For Hague and the British a painful learning experience.
The German seem more professional here...intelligence and interrogation of prisoners much better than the British(no torture used).
Jerry we don't need your sarcastic propaganda ,why dont you give it a rest
Many of us lost family in this conflict and your one eyed snide remarks are wearing thin you muppet .
It was a fckn war ,we did not make the war and the alternative was what ?
You have spouted enough lies and prejudice ,time to stf up and show some respect .
Many of us lost family in this conflict and your one eyed snide remarks are wearing thin you muppet .
It was a fckn war ,we did not make the war and the alternative was what ?
You have spouted enough lies and prejudice ,time to stf up and show some respect .
I am not giving you sarcastic propaganda breadnbutter, any more than that program was. It is showing what happened.
People may want to know, why so many of their loved ones had to die.
It was a fckn war ,we did not make the war and the alternative was what ?
Yes what???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
We did not have to fight.
Feel free to block my posts
I think you are a muppet yourself breadnbutter
People may want to know, why so many of their loved ones had to die.
It was a fckn war ,we did not make the war and the alternative was what ?
Yes what???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
We did not have to fight.
Feel free to block my posts
I think you are a muppet yourself breadnbutter
You think your providing some sort of info for people who lost family ?
http://www.historynet.com/the-tragic-pursuit-of-total-victory-germanys-unrelenting-offensive-that-lost-wwi.htm
why is that gerry ?
all you have done is besmirch the brave soldiers and mock the British tactics ,you have offered nothing else ,the Germans started the war and all you offer is not getting involved .
It was just a tiff between cousins ,millions slaughtered on a whim and all easily avoided ,thats your take ,but its as far from the truth or the reality as you could get .
your a joker ,a sick one at that ,we all know where your coming from ,typical from your lot
and no i want block you ,you block me
http://www.historynet.com/the-tragic-pursuit-of-total-victory-germanys-unrelenting-offensive-that-lost-wwi.htm
why is that gerry ?
all you have done is besmirch the brave soldiers and mock the British tactics ,you have offered nothing else ,the Germans started the war and all you offer is not getting involved .
It was just a tiff between cousins ,millions slaughtered on a whim and all easily avoided ,thats your take ,but its as far from the truth or the reality as you could get .
your a joker ,a sick one at that ,we all know where your coming from ,typical from your lot
and no i want block you ,you block me
I apologise if you think I besmirch brave soldiers, I did not intend that breadnbutter
They had to live, fight and die in appalling conditions, doing their duty, I feel desperately sorry for them.
It was just a tiff between cousins ,millions slaughtered on a whim and all easily avoided
yes that is my take, I admit it.
It cannot be all blamed on the Germans. We were all taken far too easily into this war.
They had to live, fight and die in appalling conditions, doing their duty, I feel desperately sorry for them.
It was just a tiff between cousins ,millions slaughtered on a whim and all easily avoided
yes that is my take, I admit it.
It cannot be all blamed on the Germans. We were all taken far too easily into this war.
my great grandad survived this although he did lose a little finger and eventually got gassed, apparently the gassing changed the pitch in his voice. I had all his medals mounted in a glass case a couple of years ago along with his photograph.
So Burton are you trying to say a spiv supporter like yourself comes from a family of war heroes
I would have a sporting wager that there would be far more war medals among UKIP members and supporters than any other group.
We all have our own ideas on here, I apologise if I appear sarcastic at times
I probably am
In my opinion, WWI started in Serbia. The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand by Serbian
freedom fighters/terrorists. Serbia wanted freedom from the Austrian/Hungarian empire.
Russia pledged support for Serbia, this meant war with the Austrian/Hungarian Empire.
Germany pledged support for the Austrian/Hungarian Empire this meant war with Russia.
France was bound by treaty to Russia, if Russia fought, so did they, which meant war with Germany.
Britain made a decision to fight with France. WE feared a Europe dominated by Germany would threaten us
and our Empire.
If any country had any conception of the blood bath WWI would turn out to be, would countries have made the same
decision. I doubt it, but we are not born with hindsight. Everybody thought it would be over by Christmas 1914.
I probably am
In my opinion, WWI started in Serbia. The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand by Serbian
freedom fighters/terrorists. Serbia wanted freedom from the Austrian/Hungarian empire.
Russia pledged support for Serbia, this meant war with the Austrian/Hungarian Empire.
Germany pledged support for the Austrian/Hungarian Empire this meant war with Russia.
France was bound by treaty to Russia, if Russia fought, so did they, which meant war with Germany.
Britain made a decision to fight with France. WE feared a Europe dominated by Germany would threaten us
and our Empire.
If any country had any conception of the blood bath WWI would turn out to be, would countries have made the same
decision. I doubt it, but we are not born with hindsight. Everybody thought it would be over by Christmas 1914.
Serbia was merely an ignition,the Kaiser had decided to prepare for war much earlier,their plans for invading France and turning on Russia were in place by 1912,if it hadn't been then it would have been later.Germany had aggresively boosted its navy and conscription with an army of 5 million trained servicemen while Britain had a 'contemptible little army' at the start of WW1.
Incidentally, Germany lost and Britain,despite all its failings won so we have to assume the Generals,much derided by Lloyd George a philandering politician who spread lies about Haig (a familiar style),must have had some merits.
Incidentally, Germany lost and Britain,despite all its failings won so we have to assume the Generals,much derided by Lloyd George a philandering politician who spread lies about Haig (a familiar style),must have had some merits.
We also had aggressively increased our navy. Russia had plans for military expansion.
This is something we can argue about, historians do, I would not just put it on Germany myself
I think everybody was up for this. But had no idea the sort of war it would be.
I am not sure Britian won, but we were on the winning side.
I do not think any of the military commanders knew how to fight this war. Technology had moved on.Lloyde George hated Haig because of the enormous casualties.
Haig had one saving grace he learnt from his mistakes. There was no one else for the job.
This is something we can argue about, historians do, I would not just put it on Germany myself
I think everybody was up for this. But had no idea the sort of war it would be.
I am not sure Britian won, but we were on the winning side.
I do not think any of the military commanders knew how to fight this war. Technology had moved on.Lloyde George hated Haig because of the enormous casualties.
Haig had one saving grace he learnt from his mistakes. There was no one else for the job.
watching twerps like swag and gerald debate the origin of ww1 is a dispiriting spectacle. they are full of received opinion. they know and understand nothing. serious historians still argue about it now.
it was not a row between dynasties, despite what that great student of history, gery says. and a greater rate of death occurred among generals(more than 200 died) than privates, so your class-hatred is based on a lie. ignorance and prejudice are dangerous, and you two wanchors are full of both.
it was not a row between dynasties, despite what that great student of history, gery says. and a greater rate of death occurred among generals(more than 200 died) than privates, so your class-hatred is based on a lie. ignorance and prejudice are dangerous, and you two wanchors are full of both.
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