A Question for the GOD believers

Phew...was a bit worried there...but as long as you're hating SOMEBODY, I guess that is OK.

And if you ever want to come back Velasquez wearing your Celtic top, PM me and I'll make sure you get a warm welcome.

Fookin' 'eck..."all encompassing"..."New Lodge"..."known nationalist"..."hate Linfield"...do they have a trapdoor and noose at the local supporters' club...??

OK, Ovalman - will do......hope Partick Thistle do a grey away shirt...

You are the god defender on every thread Velasquez, you deserve a medal. god bless you, whichever one you support.

Hee hee...ta...God bless YOU!


Kinda disenchanted with football to be sure...it's all $££££$£$£$ now...and Johan Cruyff died and the Guardian printed a big photo of Rob Rensenbrink in tribute...what's the point?

Heard a good story on Radio Scotland on Saturday - Archie Macpherson, Scottish journalist and commentator...

Michael Parkinson wrote a book about George Best...Parky and Archie are waiting for George at a luxury Scottish hotel and Archie says, "Johan Cruyff is better than George Best..." - so Parkinson goes apesh1t crazy and never talks to Archie again- "Cruyff is gutless," says Parky, "his whole playing style is to avoid confrontation...George Best never shirked a tackle in his life ya bassa ..." etc etc.

Archie totally shocked at the venom coming his way...it's only fitba'

Cruyff for me too...

Orange.

Green.

Gamboge.

Puce.

I was at the NI v Halland match that featured GB and Cruyff but the only thing I remember is sitting on my brothers shoulder and gurning when he set me down...

We've went off the OT that an imaginary god creates the diseases to kill us so we can worship him!

Thank go for that.

George Best was dead proud that he nutmegged Neeskens and Cruyff...but Holland came out better over the two legs...not a fan of Jim Baxter either...

Just curious and irrelevant to this thread but iirc the ground was segregated the day Glentoran played Partick in a friendly. There was also a good Partick turn out when the game happenned.

It's like anything, it's what you make it. I doubt you were in our social club.

Ovalman why would an atheist donate money to a church or religion of any description? You have got me baffled there. Is it some sort of insurance in case you are wrong

god made the world and let the world operate on its own.
and said "I wonder how long will everyone last if I don't get involved.

Mighty, I'm genuinely a non believer but the church needs funds to succeed. I may play a small part but I feel it's only fair I give to pay for my own ends (ie. a community garden).

"I doubt you were in our social club. "

No sh1t, Sherlock...

everybody is born to die. Babies die in the womb and in the maternity ward. Death has dominion here on earth. Free will, means free will. After Jesus died Grace became God's weapon against death and illness. People who believe in Christ have a promissory note called the bible that gives God's Promise to Give ETERNAL LIFE(Not eighty fine years). You do not sign up for religious services in a large building. The church is the single individual that you are. If you go to church you are in a club. Jesus doesn't want your membership dues. 'Call no man father'(so priests in the catholic church are not listening to him. 'I am your King'(so why are we picking people to rule us).

It comes down to this - are you the ultimate be all and end all - the god of you. the self righteous man with pride in his abilities. the self made man.

Or are you a servant. Not a slave. A man that recognizes that the world will kill you. Only by grace saved. Not by good deeds. by god's servant christ saved by grace.

Well, in Genesis, they are expelled from the garden, and at the end of John's gospel...Jesus asks the woman, " “Why are you crying? Who are you looking for?” Mary thought it was the gardener speaking to her"...so maybe you are in a good place with all that community gardening stuff...

Reminds me of PJ Harvey Community of Hope song...

Ovalman - you need to put down the dibble and write a description of that social club...c'mon, man...

you will not find god unless you look for him.
you will look for him if you don't believe in him.
you will not believe in him until you find him.

That has always been a difficult question for religion, why does God allow suffering?

I have never seen a convincing argument yet, or one that convinces me?


Suffering/Pain are part of Evolution, they offer an advantage, that is why they exist.

If we did not feel pain or suffering we would not take care of ourselves, we would be sitting in front of an open fire

with our feet merrily burning away, or chopping bits off ourselves in the kitchen or even walking in front of buses without

a care in the world.

he could have made it easy for us.
he could have given us a brain that understands.
but he left us with a paradox.
to believe in something that we cannot see.
yet we do it every day and take it for granted.
we can not see the wind but we can see the effects of it ,and we can feel it.
but we can not see it,but we know it there.

Yes but we feel wind, we cannot detect God with any of our physical senses.

It comes solely for our mind.

from our mind

people who believe in god feel his presence .

I think that some people are born with a faith,and find it easy to believe

the world we live in has advanced because of pragmatism.......life is about solving problems.......scientists are responsible for every advancement, be it medical or engineering.............ideology is for idiots.......saying abortion is wrong in ALL situations is really messed up..........no one should force a 14 year old girl who is pregnant after being gang raped by 4 drug addicts to have that child........forcing a girl to reproduce with a monster.......there are so many people in ireland who think that girl should be forced to have that child.......these people are disgusting.
population control is now the biggest challenge facing africa and asia.......the contraceptive pill transformed western society......woman can get educated and earn money and have children when they have means. in africa girls get pregNant in there late teens.......how can you escape poverty when this is going on. they dont have access to the pill and it may also be against their beliefs..........THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ARE AGAINST CONTRACEPTION...........WHAT A BUNCH OF TOTAL IDIOTS.

I think the Catholic are wrong there too bdj

Abortion is a little more difficult, because of termination of life, although I would approve of it in the case of rape

or if there is any risk to the mother.

It is easy to mock religion now because we have science, but before science what explanation did we have of the World?

Human Beings are not born with an intuitive knowledge of say the Higgs Boson particle, and would have no knowledge of Dinosaurs.

I doubt we even know the Earth is round intuitively....that had to be thought out by very clever human beings.

I amazed people believe in Religion at all nowadays. It seems to suggest we have a need to believe in something outside of our

physical world. But the reasons are complicated.

One religion believed the Earth is supported on the back of a giant turtle. But the Moon landings killed that one, as there was no sign of a

giant turtle from space

Dear Brain dead jockeys -

Scientists that believe in God...

    Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
    Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
    Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
    Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
    Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
    Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
    Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
    Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
    Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
    Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
    William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
    George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903)
    James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879)
    Max Planck (1858-1947)
    Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

    A famous saying of Einstein was "Science without religion is lame, religion   without science is blind."

Francis Sellers Collins (born April 14, 1950)

director of the NIH, Collins led the Human Genome Project and other genomics research initiatives.

written a number of books on science, medicine, and religion, including the New York Times bestseller, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.

I wouldn`t imagine God would have a Scottish accent, that would be ridiculous.

Then again what clothes would God wear? Hard to believe God would wear a suit and tie.
This is one reason to believe the story of Jesus. He wore sandals and a long robe. Even today the Dalai Lama is rarely seen in a suit and tie.
Is it possible God is not white and dosn`t have an English accent?

Well it would be a shock but anythings possible, i read it somewhere.

May 15, 2016 -- 8:14PM, Velasquez wrote:

"Converted"...like an old fashioned gas cooker? The bible tells believers to "preach the good news" but NEVER tells them to "convert" anybody, because they can't...Jesus talks about this when he says "You must be born again," meaning that the Spirit of God (that is, Jesus) testifies to the spirit of man, so it's God who "converts" from Death to Eternal Life, for a new creation, devoid of pain, suffering and death. This is a HOPE, growing like a sapling...Obviously, we live in a fallen world. The very air, the soil, the water, etc. is polluted by disease and death. Jesus died a terrible death and suffered more than anyone, not just physically, but spiritually, as the sin of the world, through all ages, past, present and future, was laid on him.There's a film out now called RISEN, starring Joseph Fiennes as a Roman Tribune who is stoically fighting his way through a dreadful world, as he longs for peace and a world without pointless suffering and death. It's well worth a watch. The Roman Tribune is searching for the body of a dead man...

The bible is a book of fairy tales written by man to take in foolish naïve people.. please don't preach this doctrine of myth attempting to pass it off as reality. I'd have more respect if you started reading from the ladybird book of witches catering for 5 year olds than banging on about some long haired gypo stuck to planks of wood masquerading as the son of God

May 16, 2016 -- 4:42AM, zorrostrikes wrote:

Dear Brain dead jockeys - Scientists that believe in God...    Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)    Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)    Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)    Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)    Rene Descartes (1596-1650)    Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)    Isaac Newton (1642-1727)    Robert Boyle (1791-1867)    Michael Faraday (1791-1867)    Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)    William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)    George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903)     James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879)     Max Planck (1858-1947)    Albert Einstein (1879-1955)    A famous saying of Einstein was "Science without religion is lame, religion   without science is blind."

If these people you mention publically stated they didn't believe in God during the eras they left in , they would be shunned by society probably lynched or burnt at the stake for being the devil... what else can they say? It's like saying homosexuals didn't exist at that time because nobody admitted it with attitudes of the day- atheists existed and most of those if not all on the list probably were in private.

It's a bit broad to group all those scientists under the same heading. Many would have had to have publicly stated they believed in god or they would have been burnt. For others, in victorian times, it was expected that every man was church going and god fearing. A convention essentially.

Einstein believed in a form of Spinozism. Planck was religious, but quite adamant that he didn't believe in a christian god.

The monotheistic god who gives a **** about our personal lives is a nonsense. Anyone imposing their interpretation of his will on everyone else is a lazy and intolerant tyrant.

I think a belief in a non intervening divinity that we can't even begin to understand (which is pretty much deism) is not that irrational.

I think a belief in a non intervening divinity that we can't even begin to understand (which is pretty much deism) is not that irrational.

It's not, but nor is belief in a creator figure who is not that much more advanced than ourselves, perhaps human or even a child - if this is some clever simulation originating in what would appear to be our near or distant future.

I like the way all the scientists were lying - men who were truth seekers in their times and in the case of Pascal and Francis collins wrote several books on why you should believe. Gee they really did bullshit a lot to get along.
I'm not re-writing history so I can excuse any proof of God. Some here are though.

Good to see Velasquez back on a godster thread

Sixty five replies and nobody has answered the OP question. Epicurus gave the answer more than 2000 years ago, there is no god worthy of the name.

What is the OP Question??

Epicurus used to make lovely pickled beetroot...

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Zattit??

I love pickled beetroot and red cabbage too.

If that's not it, what is it?

the question was, why does GOD allow all this random nastiness to happen to normal people? If you gotta die do it quick and easy.
Additionally, from me
Why did he create parasitic wasps who lay their eggs in living creatures which are then devoured alive and all manner of other parasites to nosh the insides of animals and humans making their lives a painful misery?

The ten commandments for you folks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk81tUUhRig

Evolution created all of life, it is but a set of rules, it has no compassion.

But we still don't know how life started?

We have a lot to find out yet.

Religion perhaps an early stab at an explanation, although for all we know it could be right yet?

So keep believing if you want.

Nobody knows for real,we are all gambling on a solution that may be justified later in the day,a bit like Betfair ? How many horses have you bet on faith instead of fact ?

on faith...sadly wrong

Foinavon - not you too.

that wasp argument isn't even original - its classic BBC saint David Attenborough talking about why HE can't believe in God.

I trusted you with the bread and you go and put marmite all over it - Freddo you where my brother, i trusted you.

let's put all the bad things that happen in the world into perspective.
one - we have free will to make a choice. Since Jesus died we have the choice to pick him or the other guy.
Now the other guy's choice is simple carpe diem. (seize the day) or (pluck the fruit)I prefer the second translation (more back to eden).
choose Heaven or Earth.
For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul.(mark:Jesus)

As it stands now You might live to be a hundred on earth. But Imagine you are immortal and something of yourself lasts for eternity. A million years from now you might not even remember your christian name, i mean your last name. But the choices you make now might decide where you spend that eternity? All that pain you and others suffered will be gone. A new body will replace the old. All pain and death removed. Those that suffered rewarded and comforted.

Zorro, of course the wasp argument isn't original, do you want me to make something up?
You said already that you know all the arguments so I'm afraid I can't help you in this respect since you have ditched them in favour of a stone-age story book.

How did you get on with the bread making? Did you buy a Dutch oven?
Nothing better than home baked bread (although some will have other ideas).

Since Jesus died we have the choice to pick him or the other guy.


Anyone believing the above, is either of subnormal IQ or mentally ill

Can't eat bread just now - not allowed refined carbs. But hope to get to it when i reach a fit state.

Either subnormal IQ or mentally ill?

See that's the argument of someone that thinks they are better than people with a low IQ or mentally ill.

Pluck the Fruit and you will know everything you will be like god. - Who said that? Who's acting like that?

The desperation of the non-believers, as they pontificate loudly, increases directly with age; the nearer they get to their own Judgement Day, the more shrill they become in their attempts to convince themselves they`re not going straight to Hell.
Not too late to repent, boys, God will forgive you your lifetime of disbelief, mockery and sin.

Can't eat bread just now - not allowed refined carbs. But hope to get to it when i reach a fit state.

Hope you get well soon Zorro, nothing worse than feeling ill.

Dear Timbuctooth - Was an atheist for twenty five years. Death has nothing to do with it. Blackness for eternity sounds super to me. I've always preferred that option on one level? Just like going to sleep. It's the afterlife I find more scary. How to cope with living for thousands or millions of years. Quite frankly i'm pretty bored at fifty. With all the old age issues coming up I'm looking forward to poppin my clogs. Getting away from people who can't even imagine an alternative. 10110011 for the robots out there.

The desperation of the non-believers, as they pontificate loudly, increases directly with age; the nearer they get to their own Judgement Day, the more shrill they become in their attempts to convince themselves they`re not going straight to Hell.
Not too late to repent, boys, God will forgive you your lifetime of disbelief, mockery and sin.

It's god believers who think they will be judged with a possibility of going to hell for their misdemeanours. They are therefore apprehensive about death. The rest of us know its just a load of horse sh1t. Death is inevitable and is without pain, the process of dying is all too often painful so one hopes it will be quick and clean.

Can't say I'm ill Fionavon, Just really unfit. Did no exercise in the last eight years. Very overweight at twenty stone. But now 16 st, feeling a bit better. The change over to no refined carbs has wreaked my stomach flora? or something. Can't digest bread anymore. Probably as a result of excluding it for a year. I force myself to eat one slice a week just so my stomach recognizes it. started swimming in October and do a hundred breadths about 1500 metres a day, twice a week. So not too shabby. Another year on the no carbs will make me fit hopefully. Stomach has settled down I started eating licorice and it stops all the bad symptoms. It's famed for it's medical properties. I just thought it was sweets. Changing over to all that greenery from a diet of pizzas and burgers takes a toll.

You are making good progress zorro, shedding 4 st is no mean feat. Stick at it, as I'm sure you will, and you will reach your target. If you haven't already done so your doctor could refer you to a dieticien who will check your progress and make sure you don't have any ill effects.
Good look with it.

*luck

I'm not trying to convince anyone of the afterlife. I don't see it as my job(if God wants you he'll steer you towards him like PAUL). I really have very little faith. What i think i have is a logical mind. I see a problem like my poor fitness and try to solve it. You live - you die. the end.
but if you investigate the bible, you start to see it's a book of unusual complexity. Like no other book. People have a tendency to mix it in with Greek Myths and other religious sources. That is a real mistake. You don't lump science books in with pride and prejudice. You have to read it as a stand alone source.
The old testament is part of the jewish religion. Yet all through it are references to an anointed one that will come. a kinsman redeemer. a king. a shepherd. on and on. THE JEWS REFUTE JESUS AS THE MESSIAH. they still wait upon their saviour. I think they would have preferred a Muhammad type. One prophet Daniel lived 550 years before Jesus. He prophesizes to the day the arrival of the messiah going through the gates of Jerusalem in AD 33. HOW do you do that. If i said in 2566 a man will walk into Buckingham palace, over throw the ruling classes with non violence and they execute him. But his words change everything and destroy that empire? How could you arrange that? That's one prophet from the JEWISH books. There are more than 600 prophecies that jesus fulfilled. The odds are beyond calculating. It goes into more atoms in multiple universes to calculate the odds. I once backed a 700/1 shot for fifty pence. Thought i did something great that night.
A lot of people see GOD as a JUDGE. He's a father. Father's love their offspring. Fear keeps us from seeking him. I WILL NOT BE JUDGED. I am covered by Christ. My high priest. All my sins are forgiven past and future.

God has reached out to you - but you slap him away? good luck with that.

carpe diem (seize the day) (pluck the fruit) Fill your boots.

it's almost post time. good luck.

You really are eccentric zorro. Nothing wrong with that I suppose, many people are.
Some of your posts sound like Billy Graham preaching to the converted. The difference is he made barrow loads of money out of it and very few on here are the right audience who will accept your premises as true.

Another question for the GOD believers.

Every so often, when an aircraft crashes with the loss of everyone on board, a story emerges of someone miraculously missing the flight through losing their passport or illness or some other reason. Believers proclaim the miracle and give praise and thanks to GOD.
Here is a case of someone who looked like missing a flight but miraculously was able to catch it through someone finding his passport in the street and handing it in.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36345131?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-africa-36328976&link_location=live-reporting-story
A disaster for him and his friends and family. What does one say to GOD when a miracle like this occurs?

Instead of wasting your time with non-miraculous `miracles`, looking for explanations for the inexplicable, using man-made logic, why don`t you just get down on your knees to pray and give thanks? That`s far more likely to be of benefit if you`re wanting a good afterlife. The whole point is belief without evidence.

Free will - you have complete free will - free will.

A lot of Christians have cosey christianity where God is everywhere watching everything - that is pantheism. That is not the judeo/christian god. God is not the chair. or the cup you drink from. He set everything in motion, it was corrupted, he is trying to save what he can and rebuild. This is not perfection as we see perfection. We see a cookie with less raisins in it and grumble. It's not the perfect cookie!!

The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. I could be knocked down by a bus tomorrow. I don't blame god. I blame not looking left or right before crossing or the nail on the street which blew out the tyre or the driver who was drinking coffee and spilled it in his lap while driving.

Death comes to us all. Only one man has defeated it. Everyone will be an immortal. resurrected into the good life or the pit. Truly evil people will not get into heaven. If you believe in Jesus you reconcile that this life is petty and cruel and you are living in a fallen world whose king is Satan. The bible tells you the king of this world is Satan not God. The kingdom was given to satan by Adam. But jesus the redeemer snatches us away from him. he has won the victory on the cross. Paid our sins in full.When he returns he will rule and cast satan and his team into the pit.

We live in a very safe country - GB is pretty safe. You look around the world and real evil is decimating the planet. Dredging up the earth for oil gas and gold. over a million die a year from car crashes. Planes drop every day. wars everywhere. Is this Heaven. NO. it's not god's kingdom. but he has given us a promissory note. the new testament. Everything you could want for only one thing - belief and faith in his son who paid the price. No good deed can get you into heaven. give a billion to the orphans gets you nothing. God can make a mountain of gold. Living in a monastery for fifty years gets you nothing. He came for sinners. People who recognize they are flawed. He does not want the self righteous.( i did this, i deserve this, i'm a self made man). he only offers love with no price attached. Slapping away a free gift means you don't get the free gift.

The whole point is belief without evidence.

You said it Timbuctooth. Winged horses, angels, heaven, hell, souls,god, (3 god's in one for some including a holy ghost whatever that might be), devil, resurrection from death. All to be taken on trust without a shred of evidence. If that's what you want to do then fair enough but please don't foist it on others and expect them to waste their time on their knees.

Mixing up the bible with greek myths, Pegasus? really.

I liked the knees bit. pride the first sin.

People want self employment, they want to be their own boss. to be their own God. Self determination. ( i'm better than my maker ) pluck the fruit, you will be like God.

Hook line and sinker.

Mohammed is claimed to have ascended to heaven on a winged horse. Millions believe it to be true.

Who is this God chap anyway? Was he in Harry Potter?

Do you believe in werewolves?
Do you believe in wizards?
Do you believe in God?
Do you believe in Aliens?
Do you believe in Santa?

Aliens are the market leader from that lot, I believe.

a lot of that was cobbled together from the old testament and greek sources. the night journey isn't even in the quran.

No there is not a written source on werewolves,aliens,gods and other bull. That is over 3000 years old(old testament).
The bible is the best selling book - every year it out sells Harry Potter and everything else. Book stores have taken it off the best selling list, because it out sells everything every year.

The dead sea scrolls which I saw in a museum when it toured round the country in the nineties. Is fragments of the jewish old testament. they have carbon dated it to the period. the written word has remained fundamentally unchanged for two thousand years. Versions in Greek,Hebrew and Other languages date to the first century. Very few books has survived from that period.

Roman historians (Tacitus, Philo and Josephus)have reported the death of a rabbi called jesus in the record of daily events that the romans meticulously kept. they recorded all legal outcomes for the day across the empire. including executions.

By the way the year is 2016. it marks the death of a criminal called JESUS. The roman empire couldn't contain him. He was not the typical conqueror like Muhammad? He's not a christian. He did not come to start a club.

Now that Foinavon has pointed out to Zorro that millions of people believe that Mohammed ascended to heaven on a winged horse, how will that affect zorros thinking?

Well i can tell you, it will not have any effect, none whatsoever...
isn`t that incredible!

So everyone else's religious beliefs are wrong and your's (Christianity) are true without a scrap of evidence? Remember pride is the first sin.
Are you going to go to your local mosque and prostrate yourself before Allah? Why not, too proud?

Last post was to Zorro

Well firstly Judeo-Christian beliefs pre date Muhammad by 0ver 600 years. Just as you used Attenborough's quip, the QURAN has lifted a lot from the Jewish books and new testement. They rate Jesus as a prophet, but not the son of god.... even though it's said many times? WHY? well satan the ruling spirit of this world has lost. But he can poison the well. Like a shell game he has thrown down competing lifestyle choices and religions to capture the mugs that cannot spot the truth. I am the way the truth and the light. When you meet a liar, you find he talks mainly about one thing. HIMSELF. he puffs himself up. He tells you what a great man he is? Muhammad was a conqueror, he fought battles. His deeds are violent.
My man Jesus though died a horrific death on a cross. next to two thieves. His apostles scattered, cowards(by their own words - cowards) Four gospels exist, contradicting themselves in places - just as real eye witnesses do.

Did you see the man rob the store sir... yes he was six foot with a red jacket.
did you see the man rob the store miss... yes he was black with a blue jacket.

The truth is a criminal died, like 10,000 before him at the hands of centurions. The quality of his words was insanely perfect and his actions were completely good. He fulfilled all 650? prophecies of the old testament. Israel is a nation again. fulfilling scripture again. Jerusalem was recaptured in June 1967.

place your bet? it's the biggest one you'll make. (blaise Pascal)

no proof except the two inch thick book called the bible? and all the historians. the documents and eye witnesses.

The bible was investigated for proof by Sir Robert Anderson of Scotland Yard.
http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Fellowship/Edit_Sir.Robert.Anderson.html

Please yourself Zorro, if that's your bedside reading then god help you.

The universe, and probable universes and everything in them is in a state of becoming, can you imagine spending an eternity in a place (Heaven) that is finished to perfection where nothing changes, that for the human condition surely must be hell.

Foinavon 21 May 16 11:13 
...All to be taken on trust without a shred of evidence. If that's what you want to do then fair enough but please don't foist it on others and expect them to waste their time on their knees.


You want facts rather than beliefs? OK, here`s one you`ll like;
On this page alone, there have been 27 posts, with you, Foinavon, responsible for 11 of them. So, over 40% of all posts are from YOU!!! My contributions amount to two previous posts across the whole thread. Yep, 11 on one page from you, two in the whole thread from me.
I`ve been on here 11 years, and have seen any number of threads from the non-believers, but don`t remember ANY having been started by we believers. For some reason, the doubters still feel compelled to forever be proclaiming that we are wrong, and I`d suggest that is quite telling;  what need within themselves are they trying to satisfy? We are quite clearly NOT trying to convert you, and the facts (over 40%!!!) illustrate this very well. If you choose Hell, fine; God has given you that free will.
The reality, of course, those doubters are actually voicing their own fears. They know they`re wrong, but are too stubborn?/faux macho? to admit this,

^ very poor reasoning from timbucktooth, his brain is full of all kinds of muddled stuff.
tim you are not making any sense, don`t allow yourself to believe otherwise.

here`s a fact for you if you wish, when autumn comes the leaves fall from the trees.

i don`t believe so far, tim or zorro have stated any facts, who would deny that?

you see the working classes, in the main, are not capable of logical thinking...this is why religion can be so dangerous in the wrong hands.

Serious question, was any religion ever in the right hands.??

for very many people boxingthe fox religion can be something kind and beautiful, i would say the majority.
But for many more it can lead to a terrible and uncompromising state of mind.

I love Christmas carols, and December when the snow covers the ground.
The air is fresh and crisp and the earth looks different all of a sudden.

May 21, 2016 -- 4:13PM, lfc1971 wrote:

for very many people boxingthe fox religion can be something kind and beautiful, i would say the majority.But for many more it can lead to a terrible and uncompromising state of mind.

Absolutely fc1971, my mother, my ex mother in law found great solace in their beliefs, my question was about the preachers not the believers. The abuse of power I saw growing up in Catholic Ireland was unbelievable....no pun intended. 

Sometimes when i am in London and catching the train at Victoria and have time. I will go into Westminster cathedral nearby, and sit there for a while watching the people and listening to the music sometimes.
I am not a catholic but it is beautiful just to sit there at the back.

I lived in London for 50+ years, and can second that sentiment. An oasis in the middle of a crowded noisy city, has quite a magical effect on most people, or at least I hope it does.

I've posted 15 times out of 117 timbuctooth. Didn't come in until after 65 had been started.
Have you ever seen me start a god thread? I just reply to others and many of my posts on here had nothing to do with religion.
I'm not a doubter, I'm an atheist. I have not voiced any fears in that regard as I don't have any.

i keep saying I was an atheist for twenty five years from ages 5-25 i never entered a church willingly unless it was for a wedding. I saw everything much as Foinavon and others - a big con job. The greek myths to the alternative choices. My brother would bring up the bible now and then and I'd tell him to FO. In polite terms.
What turned me around was Science. I read Blaise Pascal(the mathematician) in a condensed form, i picked it up for some light toilet reading. He's very scientific on why you should believe. Then I started to read the Bible and it's not like other books. It has an extra dimensional quality. It has a deeply hidden core which cannot be penetrated by cursory reading. It actively tries to hide it's meaning. If you come to the bible with a lazy eye you won't see anything in it. I'm constantly reading it to winkle out the hidden gems. (for one instance - there is a description of gems used in the making of the new jerusalem. Jasper,sapphire,emerald,onyx,carnelian,yellow quartz, beryl,topaz,chalsedony, turcoise and amethyst) why use these ones?

(lifted from wikipedia) - Identification by refractive index
by refractometer

One test to determine the gem's identity is to measure the refraction of light in the gem. Every material has a critical angle, above which point light is reflected back internally. This can be measured and thus used to determine the gem's identity. Typically this is measured using a refractometer, although it is possible to measure it using a microscope.
Identification by specific gravity

Specific gravity, also known as relative density, varies depending upon the chemical composition and crystal structure type. Heavy liquids with a known specific gravity are used to test loose gemstones.

Specific gravity is measured by comparing the weight of the gem in air with the weight of the gem suspended in water.
Identification by spectroscopy

This method uses a similar principle to how a prism works to separate white light into its component colors. A gemological spectroscope is employed to analyze the selective absorption of light in the gem material. Essentially, when light passes from one medium to another, it bends. Blue light bends more than red light. How much the light bends will vary depending on the gem material. Coloring agents or chromophores show bands in the spectroscope and indicate which element is responsible for the gem's color.

Light seems to be a factor in the choices. Scientists believe the universe is actually a digital construction. who constructed it? Let there be light.

why has he not eradicated rett syndrome, MS & motor neuron disease..............all three slowly torture human beings to death over a long period of time............and many of the god believers think euthanasia for such sufferers is wrong............the god believers have an answer for everything.......

Death has been defeated, when christ returns all good people will be raised. No more illness. No bad leaders talking bull to fill their pockets with gold. One good King that loves us.
If that's not enough - what is? what is heaven to you? To be left alone to potter around for fourty more years collecting trinkets and then hit the compost heap in a cemetary. I won... i got five percent more than Jones at number 56? i'm the winner?
pointlessness is pointless. does it matter if you die, if it's all pointless. why argue about the grave? If it's all pointless and evolution was the only consideration Joseph Stalin and other dictators are the heroes. Ethnic cleansing is refining the human species into fine gold. Whittle out all the sick ones now. Killing ten with aids in 1980 would save millions later? eliminate emotion and morals. Ants in an anthill take out the defective ants for disposal.
Men are just animals. we kill animals for food. Sell them for money. So slavery isn't wrong. cannibalism isn't wrong.

We were given laws , because we were slavers and cannibals. We were given grace because we were more than beasts.

If God is all seeing and repsonsobile for everything why would he abolish diseases , he is responsible for them existing ? We cant understand what form God takes so we have to cope with what we have rather than what we feel should be. Faith is absolute,my personal opinion is that everyoen who has claimed to interpret the word of God and given us instructions are charlatans and we have to make our own decisions rather than follow dreamers and eejits.

http://www.reasons.org/articles/articles/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-for-the...

I have always liked this song from the Eagles 'learn to be still' here are some of the lyrics

We are like sheep without a shepherd
We don't know how to be alone
So we wander 'round this desert
And wind up following the wrong gods home
But the flock cries out for another
And they keep answering that bell
And one more starry-eyed messiah
Meets a violent farewell-
Learn to be still
Learn to be still

Now the flowers in your garden
They don't smell so sweet
Maybe you've forgotten
The heaven lying at your feet

The reasons why religious people don't start thread on here is that, for some strange reason, Christianity is still the status quo in this country.  It is imbedded in our constitution.  We are subjects of the queen and the queen
is the Chairman or CEO of the church - or something like that.

Why on earth would Christians want any discussion on religion, seeing they are on ground as shaky as a Parkinson's sufferer during an earthquake.

'Why on earth would Christians want any discussion on religion, seeing they are on ground as shaky as a Parkinson's sufferer during an earthquake.'

JH, that's an image that will be hard to shift.

As a CHRISTIAN, i prefer the term follower of Christ. I do not go to church(church numbers are down). Paul said we are the CHURCH. Every follower is the church. Call no man FATHER. As i was born catholic, I can see this as a problem in going to the services on Sunday. But it is recommended that the church gathers to pray. (If three or more are gathered in my name).

I have nothing to gain by arguing with people who are damning themselves. God reaches out at every turn. If you have heard of the bible? if you've been dragged to church? if you've seen the films (most recently risen in 2016) if you saw the documentaries on yesterday station. etc.etc. You still refuse that's your choice.

I heard this argument said to a young woman - your boyfriend turns to you after a fortnight of being together and says ... listen, if you don't sleep with me(bonk, for the boys) I'm no longer going to be your boyfriend.... (so the guy places a price on his affection)

IF god was here, ruling on earth, commanding you do things because he told you to... it would be bullying and dictatorial.

God has left it up to you whether you love him. Free will. He does not intervene till the fullness of the gentiles is finished(find it in the bible). Then it's game over and he will rule on earth.(why doesn't god do something about my Rett Syndrome?the question above) Well if you are resurrected from the grave and given a permanent UN-degradable body and ruled by a worthy king. That's doing something.(read the book, new testament, then old. Starwars fans get it better that way).