Donald Trump backs Brexit.

People need to get over the immigration thing with Brexit, numbers would not change drastically, look at those that are out but have to comply with the EU. Norway. I want out of it too but more so on the business front, they really do stifle the growth of small businesses with their endless red tape.

The achiles heel of Brexit is nobody can truly articulate exactly what we will have post Brexit. Despite the European Union being profoundly anti democracy and quite wicked in some ways that is the one thing which may see us stay in.

If the vote is for out our politicians simply couldn't in good conscience sign up to anything which sees the free movement principle remain because that will be a major factor in any vote to leave. Taking back control of our borders means exactly that.

Taking back control of our borders means exactly that.

Any country that has any sense does that in my opinion

Well I like Trump, I hope the Americans vote for him

I suppose he has to be against uncontrolled immigration since he is going to build a wall to keep the Hispanics out

Our country has given away it's Britishness that is very sad

Labour want to give us away to Europe, the Tories to give us away to the United States, we have been giving ourselves

away to Commonwealth for years, we don't seem to like ourselves very much.

Most is for short term economic gain, we never look long term, it does not surprise me the state we have got ourselves in.

You make us seem like a cheap hooker ebul. I'm feeling all dirty.

The day before yesterday, Trump promised America they were "going to start winning." Yesterday, he identified his first potential target, Britain isolated outside of the EU.
In the jungle of trade-agreements, Brexit would make Britain the ultimate "low hanging fruit."

Imo on average, the lower IQ you have, the more you rely on bluster and populism, and the less open you are, the more likely you are to vote to leave.  For me that makes the decision to vote to stay easy.  I don't need to look at supposed facts or reasons as I recognise I'm not in a position or anywhere mnear knowledgeable enough to make a decision.  If I spent 10 years full time, dedicating my life to whether we should stay or leave then I would but I haven't.  I just need to look at who wants us to leave... Farage, Boris, Bernie Ecclestone, Trump.  Egotists, fantasists and blusterheads.  Then I look at the markets.  Voting to leave is a gamble.  If you have uncertainty, you want on average, reward.  The financial markets say on average you are going to lose.  If I want a gamble, I want on average to win.  And that is why the country will vote (sensibly I think) to stay.

That is a cogent fair summary, Clydebank.

So basically the more stupid you are the more likely you are to vote leave.


People fear change/risk so they will vote for remain.  The mistake is in thinking that by staying in there is no risk/change when there certainly is because you are not voting for the Status Quo.  Look how far we have come since the  Eu was just the Common Market then think where will be be in 10-20 years time and how much control will we have over that change.

I prefer to have more control over my own destiny and believe that the EU is a flawed concept doomed to end in tears.  However there is an inevitability to all of this because so many of the worlds big players would benefit from Britain staying in.

Some very good points made here,as an outsider I believe the uk would prosper outside the eu,as it has the size and strength to do so. A country such as Ireland would not be able to survive outside the eu.

Thr feeling of national identity which has been lost over the decades, would probably be reinvigorated by a departure from the union.

There are pros and cons,but overall I think britain would be better off outside looking in.The usual hysteria and scare mongering are just that,the changes would not be as great as are being hyped up at the moment,and from a british point of view your average citizen would be better off in the long term, if brexit wins the day.

I don't have control over my political destiny and won't have whether we stay or leave.  I have only one vote in 50 million over my political destiny, so I am not handing over any meaningful control. 

As far as my economic beliefs go, I believe wealth and lifestyle is created by producing and selling goods and services.  I believe that is likely to be easier if we remain in the EU.  Pensions, healthcare, housing and infrastructure is all paid for by our businesses being successful.

Of course, it's going to be easier, as it makes no sense at all that it would be harder.  What I would have no idea over is how much harder it will be if we leave, and what quantifiable benefits there would be to offset it.  Control is not an issue at all imo.

Pensions, healthcare, housing and infrastructure is all paid for by our businesses being successful.

So if you want to share all the wealth that the UK can create with the less successful countries in the EU of which there are many. Then vote to stay.
It's socialism by the back door.
And it's the UK who are one of the countries footing the bill.

The EU don't want us in the union for what they can give to the UK, they want us to remain for what we can give to them.

bluster

^^You're simply burying your head in the sand.

The aim of the EU is to make the UK simply another state in the union.

You should know that.

Its depressing reading CLYDEBANK29s posts

For craven servility they win the watch.

The man has no soul,no idea of history or culture.

On economics alone you should leave but forget the economics for awhile.
Just go on history,ye are one of the oldest democracies in the world,indeed famous for spreading democracy yet a craven selfish elite are prepared to trade that for big business and multinationals.

Get your confidence back ye are well capable of ruling yourselves.

more bluster

I've got a strong feeling that CLYDBANK29 hasn't got much idea what he is talking about.

Or CLYDEBANK29 either.

Hungary used to be the best football team in the world.  It's not relevant.  Different world then.  I'd say you are likely burying your head in the sand if you live in the past.

If bluster fails.... next step is to throw toys out of pram.

CLYDEBANK29  doesn't come back with a lot once he's been challenged does he?

He soon falls back on other stuff to get him out the mire.

As soon as wildmanfromborneo has a go at  someone I automatically think they have made a decent post

Thanks for sharing that with us fife.

Is that why wildman ignores all of your stuff?

Best to ignore what Scots like Clydebank have to say on this topic. They have their own agenda and its not hard to work out what it is.

The EU was a workable concept up until the Iron Curtain came down.

Such was the urge to rub Russia's nose in it by accepting the eastern bloc countries, scant regard was given to the consequences of allowing free movement.

The results are there for all to see.

That is the difference between posters who have left leaning views with a couple of exceptions they don't make abusive comments whereas the right as this thread proves  insult anyone who does not agree with their views.

Clyde - you mention possible market uncertainty following Brexit.

Just a few years ago the FTSE dipped below 5000 whilst we were of course in the EU.

It then went over 7000. It's now 6000. We're in a global market and the FTSE is affected more by America and Japan as it is by Greece and Romania..

I can understand how the people of countries that are used to being controlled by foreign powers eg Scotland will readily accept rule from Brussels but the English have little experince of this and  so are more reluctant to tolerate  it.

A bit of a history lesson.... The Romans conquered England, but they couldn't tame the Celts. 

Scotland's took England to the cleaners too...

Scotland wins versus England and Wales. Northern Ireland does best. Average UK per capita spend on "geographically identifiable" things is £8,788. England is 3% less, Scotland 16% more (a 19% differential with Scotland), Wales 10% more and NI 24% more. That is just the basic numbers.

and that was before the Independence referendum where the Scots bagged an even better deal.  England like a desperate spouse agreeing to their wife's demands just so she'll stay.

Surely khan getting in as nightmare of London will boost Trump votes when
he uses it as an awful experiment gone wrong & warning to the undecided USA voters

Yeah, what a cringeing bunch you Scots are, Clydebank. Said No to indepedendance, yes to having every decision in Westminster hinging on "What's in it for Scotland," I loved that Cameron had a majority without blackmail.

Scotland didn't have the courage to go it alone, a lot bluster, but not much courage.

On Brexit, it's true it does have some unfortunate faces fronting the out campaign, if Trump really wanted a Brexit he should have said he wanted Britain to remain.

I beg you to accept that there is no people on Earth who would not prefer their own bad government to the good government of an alien power.

Mind you- when Ghandi spoke these words he did not fully understand the Scots !

Democracy ? then Brexit

For the stupid non rich people voting to stay in the EU, i hope they have some rope and shovels handy.

Clydebank claims this is an issue he would spend 10 years thinking about, but is he being honest and is it so difficult?

No is the answer to that for Scots like Clydebank. This topic like almost all others can be simplified.

If somewhere in the most primitive corners of his brain a policy, almost any policy, can seem to him to be in any way against Britains, or even better Englands interest then he will be for it

And if something can be seen to strengthen Britain and be in Englands interest then he will be against it.

Everything is seen through that prism, once England was great and powerful and they could not forgive that.

People don't like thinking about things.  They want things to be as simple as possible so they assume they are, even though they aren't.  It's a self defence mechanism.  It's like religion, people want to believe in it, even though if they thought about it, they'd realise it's based on fantasy.

"A bit of a history lesson.... The Romans conquered England, but they couldn't tame the Celts."

I think you need to go back to school.

"It's now generally considered that at no time was even half of Scotland's land mass under Roman control."

Saying Rome conquered Scotland is like saying Hitler conquered Russia

England has many magnificent sights dating back to Roman times, and before.
Including a road that they say Julius Caesar built.

Idon`t think that he actually built the road, or planted the trees beside it with his own hands.
He was probably too proud for that, too mighty.

Saying Rome invaded England is like saying George Bush invaded Mesopotamia in 2003

I agree in general with what Clydebank is saying, Churchill's five-minute conversation with the average voter quote comes to mind, but people just don't have the time or will to dissect every single piece of information so that are drawn to key headlines and what effects them, the most intelligent people are the people who don't vote at all, because they understand that their one single vote in any election is going to change the square root of 0, in any key vote/election, I want it to swing a certain way, but I wouldn't waste my time taking part, just like religion as said above, people want to believe their one vote matters, but computer says no.

Also, it wasn't the Scots that defeated the Romans, they were Caledonian tribes, Scots didn't exist, and they were helped by the Barbarians attacking Rome, but they did put up a monumental fight over a a long period of time.

Hadrian built Hadrian's Wall to keep the Scots(Caledonians) out.

The Romans did try to occupy Scotland but found it hard going. Also there was not a lot there no cities or wealth.

So eventually gave up and built the wall. When you see a drunken Scotsman you can see their point

I will excuse xmoneyx

CLYDEBANK:

I beg you to accept that there is no people on Earth who would not prefer their own bad government to the good government of an alien power.

Would you willingly wear EU gold chains or walk free and naked to assert your own sovereignty again?

Yes we could be poorer. We could also be richer. The point is that it will largely be in our own hands as a nation rather than those of unelected bureaucrats.

Is that simple enough for you?

The Romans invaded these shores and got a foothold in the south but there was not enough to tax rob and steal and they fecked off  ,however little there was in south there was even less in  the north  ,i suggest Ireland was the same ,feck all for them to get there grubby thieving hands on ,can imagine them after struggling in Northern territory sending somone to Ire and the message coming back was head in hands man.

Hadrian never built the wall to keep caladonians out ,in fact i dont think there is any great evidence to why the wall was built ,romans just liked building imo ,more a vanity project ,to control and give an illusion of something ,they liked collecting taxes ,its what they did ,the peoples in northern britian were not rich in anything the Romans rated or  anything they wanted and did not take to being controlled by a load of thieving monkeys .

All this keeping people out is bullshit ,they wanted to  create an illusion of power imo ,of the various tribes and people of the late iron age we know not a lot ,Even the term Celtic peoples is becoming more and more controversial and challenged.

Caladonia a name used by romans ,likewise picts a name used by others ,no one knows what the natives called the land and no one knows what they called themselves .

Much work still to be done but great the opinions of people who thought they knew it all are now being challenged with new age critical logical thinking .

they were here for 400 years so they took their time in fecking off

They went back to Rome to boost numbers in the fight against the Barbarians.

A mere splash in the ocean of time

Took a woman to shoo them  boys away

*bad boys

I so wish we had a Sir Donald here.

At least the USA isn't to far broke & he can sort it if he gets in.

Left loons will be cringing by the above but id rather speak up than have
my head chopped off - think about it you do goodin nut cases

I see ideas about Hadrian's Wall have moved on since I was at school breadnbutter.

Perhaps Mary Beard my cover this in her excellent series on BBC 2. It is very good.

I am not entirely sure where Donald Trump would build his wall if he was here?

In fact Mary Beard covered Hadrian last week. Rome would build a lot to show their power.

The Romans would often build to send out a message, look what we can do, so don't mess with us.

The Romans would often build to send out a message, look what we can do, so don't mess with us.



So they built a wall 5 meters high

and 80 miles long

It could have 5000 miles long, a long short wall is hardly intimidating or hard to navigate over.

It is true the Romans failed to civilize Scotland, that burden was left to the English.

The only person who knows why that wall was built was Hadrian himself

There are quite a number reasons why it might have been built, history is interpretive.

It was occupied by Roman Legions, they could move quickly along that wall.

I have admitted it was not just for defence as I was taught when younger.

My best guess at the moment, would be it was symbolic, to mark the Roman Empires Northern boundary.

Hadrian was saying everything to the south belongs to Rome.

It is all arguable.


I see you think Scotland needed civilising lfc1971

The day before yesterday, Trump promised America they were "going to start winning." Yesterday, he identified his first potential target, Britain isolated outside of the EU.
In the jungle of trade-agreements, Brexit would make Britain the ultimate "low hanging fruit."

dont think hardly any realise the implications.

the eu are currently making sure the us dont get their own way on any possible deal.

if they did get their own way its a disadvantage for "the non rich".
they get affected more because of things like employment rights...having to lower standards to compete with the us...yes they have lower standards.

at least the eu are on the workers side.

love what the eu have brought in recently.
isp's have to comply with non discriminating traffic shaping.

this will force isp#'s with networks to make sure they are not throttling.
and sh1t companies like bt will have to ensure they build a network good enough