Chit Chat
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
16 Jul 15
22:35
Joined:
Date Joined:
20 Dec 10
A 16 year old apprentice, who is obviously fresh out of school and knows fack all, was killed when he got caught in a lathe at work.
His company was fined £150,000, so his boss was obviously guilty of a serious lack of Health and Safety application, and admitted corporate manslaughter.
He was sent to prison.
(Easy enough to google, but don't put the correct answer on here)
How long would you have given him?
His company was fined £150,000, so his boss was obviously guilty of a serious lack of Health and Safety application, and admitted corporate manslaughter.
He was sent to prison.
(Easy enough to google, but don't put the correct answer on here)
How long would you have given him?
Show More
If the company has shown a total disregard for H&S regulations I'd say 8 years.
He'd have been executed in China.
He'd have been executed in China.
2 chit chat judges have posted so far
5 years
8 years
Who's up next?
5 years
8 years
Who's up next?
Similar thing happened in a factory when I lived near Cambridge, young kid got dragged into an industrial shredder.
8 years is far too fierce, I would guess at 3 years custodial out in 9 months on licence.
8 years is far too fierce, I would guess at 3 years custodial out in 9 months on licence.
3 chit chat Judges have voted
3 years
5 years
8 years
Who's next?
3 years
5 years
8 years
Who's next?
What's a normal sentence for manslaughter and does corporate manslaughter carry a lighter tariff?
Sorry I misread this as a prediction on what the judge actually gave.
If I were in charge of sentencing I would have given 4 years at least.
If I were in charge of sentencing I would have given 4 years at least.
4 chit chat Judges have voted
3 years
4 years
5 years
8 years
Who's next?
3 years
4 years
5 years
8 years
Who's next?
suspended sentence and lumpy fine but if the kid was ethnic 10 years 
5 chit chat Judges have voted
suspended sentence and a fine (which has already been dealt with in the OP)
3 years
4 years
5 years
8 years
Who's next?
suspended sentence and a fine (which has already been dealt with in the OP)
3 years
4 years
5 years
8 years
Who's next?
Almost impossible to call without the full facts. If pressed for an answer I'd say a suspended sentence and a large fine.
It might have been some sort of horrible freak accident, we just don't know from the scant details given.
5 chit chat Judges have voted
1 year
3 years
4 years
5 years
8 years
PM
if it was a freak accident, I don't think the company would have been fined as much as £150,000
1 year
3 years
4 years
5 years
8 years
PM
if it was a freak accident, I don't think the company would have been fined as much as £150,000
I've just read about the incident. You left out some very relevant points in your original post, SAGC, and my answer would have differed greatly had I known the true facts of the case.
6 chit chat Judges have voted
Suspended sentence
1 year
3 years
4 years
5 years
8 years
In the interests of fairness, SAGC, surely you should at least give everyone the full facts before they pass sentence? There are two or three points you have omitted that have a dramatic bearing on culpability.
PM
I did this with a case the other day to try and understand why a killer was convicted of manslaughter.
She went armed with a knife, a hammer and a wrench, and stabbed him 8 times.
The chit chat jury came out 10 for murder 2 for manslaughter.
The jury in the court, which comprised of 10 women and 2 men, came up with 10 manslaughter and 2 murder.
She was 45 year younger than the victim who was 77.
Part of the case was that the victim was a convicted paedophile living under an alias, awaiting yet another trial, which I never stated at the start.
But Money Tree did, he googled it, even though I asked people not to post any further details, and he may or may not have affected the chit chat result.
I did this with a case the other day to try and understand why a killer was convicted of manslaughter.
She went armed with a knife, a hammer and a wrench, and stabbed him 8 times.
The chit chat jury came out 10 for murder 2 for manslaughter.
The jury in the court, which comprised of 10 women and 2 men, came up with 10 manslaughter and 2 murder.
She was 45 year younger than the victim who was 77.
Part of the case was that the victim was a convicted paedophile living under an alias, awaiting yet another trial, which I never stated at the start.
But Money Tree did, he googled it, even though I asked people not to post any further details, and he may or may not have affected the chit chat result.
The idea was to get the chit chat vote, then see if anybody wanted to change it when I posted more details.
But Money Tree facked up the thread by disclosing it early.
But Money Tree facked up the thread by disclosing it early.
6 chit chat Judges have voted
Suspended sentence
1 year
3 years
4 years
5 years
8 years
The fact is, he was sentenced to just 8 months in prison.
How does justice work?
Compare that with the prize diquehead who was jailed for 'TRYING to organise' an illegal dog fight.
One man, a company owner, so probably not a thicko, got one of his apprentices killed because of his company blatantly ignoring safety issues.
And gets just 8 months in prison.
The other is a moronic half wit who probably COULDN'T organise a piss up in a brewery. In fact he didn't organise anything, he failed. There were no dogs, so there was no illegal dog fight. Nos dogs were harmed, nobody was injured and nobody died,
He got 5 and a half months.
But there was no safety regime at the firm, the youngsters were left untrained and unsupervised and safety guards had been taken off all the machinery, the court heard.
I stand by my 8 years after reading that.
This guy had a complete disregard for the law and for the safety of his employees.
All that was in his head was profit.
I stand by my 8 years after reading that.
This guy had a complete disregard for the law and for the safety of his employees.
All that was in his head was profit.
What is the skin colour of those involved? Were they qualified to recognise dangerous working practises and conditions?
I haven't read the preamble but I'll say 45 years. Just a guess. I'll read the thread now and see if I'm right. I hope it's not bilking or some other minor infraction.
I was wrong. Probably 5 years. Was it a halal wood factory?
I would have said 18 months after reading the intial post as the £150,000 fine probably negated a larger sentence.
hard to say. I think the other workers who were there might be best to judge. they knew both parties.
naydam
17 Jul 15 17:48
What is the skin colour of those involved? Were they qualified to recognise dangerous working practises and conditions?
Another idiotic pair of questions.
17 Jul 15 17:48
What is the skin colour of those involved? Were they qualified to recognise dangerous working practises and conditions?
Another idiotic pair of questions.
It seems that this company had quite a few 'apprentices' working for them.
And going by reports, they were left to get on with it, with no proper supervision.
An 'apprentice' engineer is supposed to work with a qualified engineer, not be left alone.
Having said that, anybody who puts their head near a spinning chuck on a lathe, even when it's not holding anything, is totally stupid.
Contrary to popular belief, youth is not a guarantee of the presence of stupidity.
So you don't normally get 'totally stupid apprentices.'
He was allegedly trying to learn a trade.
I'd say he was an unqualified lathe turner on poor wages, but called an 'apprentice.'
When I was in my teens I would never have put my head near a spinning chuck, and I fail to see a logical reason why this lad did.
I think that in the absence of supervision, there may have been teenage horseplay here, and it went wrong, but nobody is grassing.
And going by reports, they were left to get on with it, with no proper supervision.
An 'apprentice' engineer is supposed to work with a qualified engineer, not be left alone.
Having said that, anybody who puts their head near a spinning chuck on a lathe, even when it's not holding anything, is totally stupid.
Contrary to popular belief, youth is not a guarantee of the presence of stupidity.
So you don't normally get 'totally stupid apprentices.'
He was allegedly trying to learn a trade.
I'd say he was an unqualified lathe turner on poor wages, but called an 'apprentice.'
When I was in my teens I would never have put my head near a spinning chuck, and I fail to see a logical reason why this lad did.
I think that in the absence of supervision, there may have been teenage horseplay here, and it went wrong, but nobody is grassing.
8 months clearly not enough for chit chatters.
Well of course it shouldn't be enough. I hate all the endless health and safety regulations that squeeze the life out of small businesses. But it is very important that we expect certain minimum standards to be met. In this case, the firm clearly couldn't give a monkey about its staff - actually removing the safeguard feature and telling the untrained employees they had to stick their arm directly into the machine while it was working??? 
- and the firm's bosses should be punished very severely indeed. Really should be 8 years minimum.
- and the firm's bosses should be punished very severely indeed. Really should be 8 years minimum.
Ok, i googled this one. Now i see how. (not the kid, but makes the point). 
http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?3124-Machinist-gets-Suc...
http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?3124-Machinist-gets-Suc...
I'm not sure it's really something you want to think about too hard PaE..
When I was a kid, we went on a school trip round a huge industrial farm. The farm itself was pretty boring, but I do still remember the huge board that they had that 'commemorated' all of the child workers who had been killed in horrible accidents on that very farm in centuries gone by. It explained (in significant detail) the circumstances of each death, and I must confess to being rather fascinated by each and every entry. I kept inventing excuses so that I could skip away from the rest of my class and go back to read a bit more. Lurid stuff... 
I used to work for Bacofoil.
The lathes, 3 of them, held steel rollers that rolled out aluminium foil, and the slightest dent meant that the whole roller had to be skimmed by thousandths of an inch.
It was all done by computer, but had to be cleaned manually.
Those rollers weighed 3,200 kgs each, so you imagine the power of the motor turning the chuck.
When it was time to clean the lathe you had to call the electrician, who cut all power to the machine, and had to sign a docket to say he had done so, before you started.
It was a sackable offence to start with no signature.
That's how Health and Safety should be done, and that was back in the mid-1970s.
The lathes, 3 of them, held steel rollers that rolled out aluminium foil, and the slightest dent meant that the whole roller had to be skimmed by thousandths of an inch.
It was all done by computer, but had to be cleaned manually.
Those rollers weighed 3,200 kgs each, so you imagine the power of the motor turning the chuck.
When it was time to clean the lathe you had to call the electrician, who cut all power to the machine, and had to sign a docket to say he had done so, before you started.
It was a sackable offence to start with no signature.
That's how Health and Safety should be done, and that was back in the mid-1970s.
No doubt if he killed him with his car, he would have got less...
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/neath-death-crash-greg-flowers-8925478
Teaching assistant given suspended sentence for causing death by careless driving of motorcyclist in Neath crash
13:04, 26 March 2015
By Robin Turner
A teaching assistant who caused the death of a popular probation officer in a road accident has been spared an immediate jail term
The son of a motorcyclist who died in a crash has spoken of the devastation of losing both parents, as a teaching assistant was given a suspended sentence for causing his father’s death by careless driving.
Teaching assistant Nicola Ann Rees was on Thursday given a 12-month jail term, suspended for 18 months, after admitting causing the death by careless driving of Greg Flowers in a head-on road crash near Neath.
Rees, 51, was also disqualified from driving for 18 months and ordered to pay £1,000 towards prosecution costs.
Appalling impact
Judge Paul Thomas told Rees, a former pub landlady, “a brief moment of uncharacteristically poor driving” by her had an appalling impact on the lives of many people.
Dimitris Legakis/Athena Pictures Nicola Rees outside Swansea Crown Court
Nicola Rees outside Swansea Crown Court
Ian Wright, prosecuting at Swansea Crown Court, had earlier told the court a sudden overtaking manoeuvre by Rees in her Renault Clio on the A4109 at Aberdulais on October 16, 2013, led to the death of probation officer Mr Flowers, 40, of Crynant, Neath.
The father of three, who was travelling in the opposite direction, was thrown from his Suzuki motorcycle and was pronounced dead at the scene with devastating injuries.
Rees, of Abercrave, who was left bloodied and dazed, was taken to hospital on a spinal board but was later released.
She wept in the dock as Mr Flowers’ son Kyle, 22, read a moving victim impact statement before sentence was passed at Swansea Crown Court.
In it he said he would never be able to forgive Rees for taking away “his idol” who had supported him through the death of his mother, Mr Flowers’ first wife, some years ago.
'Each day is a struggle'
He added he wanted to see the defendant jailed “for a long, long time” so she could experience some of the pain he and his family were going through.
Mr Flowers said: “On October 16, 2013, on a normal working day, I got the life-changing phone call. I just couldn’t come to terms with the fact my last remaining parent had gone through no fault of his own... would we be able to cope with another death?
“I immediately felt anger that the man who had brought us up and supported us through the devastating death of my mother some years ago had been taken away. He was my best friend who I feel completely lost without, he was my idol.
“I find each day a struggle. He’s already missed so much of my life.
“I will never be able to forgive Nicola Rees. I believe she should be sent to prison for a long, long time.”
After passing a suspended sentence, Judge Thomas said to Mr Flowers’ family he accepted it was a sentence which was “not one some of you would have wished”.
'A well loved man'
However he said the court had accepted the defendant’s actions amounted to carelessness not dangerousness and added: “Mrs Rees will wake up for the rest of her life I suppose with this incident on her mind.”
Rees, who works at Maesydderwen Comprehensive School in Ystradgynlais in the Swansea Valley, entered a guilty plea to causing death by careless driving on the fifth day of her trial earlier this week.
Swansea Crown Court
She had denied charges of causing Mr Flowers’ death by dangerous driving and an alternative of causing death by careless driving and her decision to admit the lesser charge was accepted by the prosecution.
She was formally acquitted of the more serious charge.
It emerged her partner Andrew Challenger, who was first on the scene of the accident, is head of driver education at the Welsh Ambulance Service and an adviser for driver training (ambulances) across the UK.
Judge Thomas said: “Mr Flowers was a well loved and respected man whose life was ended prematurely.”
And he told Rees: “Mr Flowers did not materialise at that spot out of thin air he was there to be seen and ought to have been seen before you pulled out.”
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/neath-death-crash-greg-flowers-8925478
Teaching assistant given suspended sentence for causing death by careless driving of motorcyclist in Neath crash
13:04, 26 March 2015
By Robin Turner
A teaching assistant who caused the death of a popular probation officer in a road accident has been spared an immediate jail term
The son of a motorcyclist who died in a crash has spoken of the devastation of losing both parents, as a teaching assistant was given a suspended sentence for causing his father’s death by careless driving.
Teaching assistant Nicola Ann Rees was on Thursday given a 12-month jail term, suspended for 18 months, after admitting causing the death by careless driving of Greg Flowers in a head-on road crash near Neath.
Rees, 51, was also disqualified from driving for 18 months and ordered to pay £1,000 towards prosecution costs.
Appalling impact
Judge Paul Thomas told Rees, a former pub landlady, “a brief moment of uncharacteristically poor driving” by her had an appalling impact on the lives of many people.
Dimitris Legakis/Athena Pictures Nicola Rees outside Swansea Crown Court
Nicola Rees outside Swansea Crown Court
Ian Wright, prosecuting at Swansea Crown Court, had earlier told the court a sudden overtaking manoeuvre by Rees in her Renault Clio on the A4109 at Aberdulais on October 16, 2013, led to the death of probation officer Mr Flowers, 40, of Crynant, Neath.
The father of three, who was travelling in the opposite direction, was thrown from his Suzuki motorcycle and was pronounced dead at the scene with devastating injuries.
Rees, of Abercrave, who was left bloodied and dazed, was taken to hospital on a spinal board but was later released.
She wept in the dock as Mr Flowers’ son Kyle, 22, read a moving victim impact statement before sentence was passed at Swansea Crown Court.
In it he said he would never be able to forgive Rees for taking away “his idol” who had supported him through the death of his mother, Mr Flowers’ first wife, some years ago.
'Each day is a struggle'
He added he wanted to see the defendant jailed “for a long, long time” so she could experience some of the pain he and his family were going through.
Mr Flowers said: “On October 16, 2013, on a normal working day, I got the life-changing phone call. I just couldn’t come to terms with the fact my last remaining parent had gone through no fault of his own... would we be able to cope with another death?
“I immediately felt anger that the man who had brought us up and supported us through the devastating death of my mother some years ago had been taken away. He was my best friend who I feel completely lost without, he was my idol.
“I find each day a struggle. He’s already missed so much of my life.
“I will never be able to forgive Nicola Rees. I believe she should be sent to prison for a long, long time.”
After passing a suspended sentence, Judge Thomas said to Mr Flowers’ family he accepted it was a sentence which was “not one some of you would have wished”.
'A well loved man'
However he said the court had accepted the defendant’s actions amounted to carelessness not dangerousness and added: “Mrs Rees will wake up for the rest of her life I suppose with this incident on her mind.”
Rees, who works at Maesydderwen Comprehensive School in Ystradgynlais in the Swansea Valley, entered a guilty plea to causing death by careless driving on the fifth day of her trial earlier this week.
Swansea Crown Court
She had denied charges of causing Mr Flowers’ death by dangerous driving and an alternative of causing death by careless driving and her decision to admit the lesser charge was accepted by the prosecution.
She was formally acquitted of the more serious charge.
It emerged her partner Andrew Challenger, who was first on the scene of the accident, is head of driver education at the Welsh Ambulance Service and an adviser for driver training (ambulances) across the UK.
Judge Thomas said: “Mr Flowers was a well loved and respected man whose life was ended prematurely.”
And he told Rees: “Mr Flowers did not materialise at that spot out of thin air he was there to be seen and ought to have been seen before you pulled out.”
^^^ also former footballer scott sellars got a suspended sentence for killing a motocyclist because he admitted he fell asleep at the wheel.
In fairness TBB, there's a big difference between one motorist who goes a little crazy for a brief moment and accidentally kills somebody, and a firm that, day in and day out, pays absolutely no regard to very important H&S guidelines, and who allows virtually untrained youngsters to take massive risks with their lives.
Some do get jailed though. Some of them footballers - Lee Hughes, for example.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539