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Is this really necessary? Do foxes need culling? I realise they kill chickens etc but mainly live on rabbits. If they do need culling is this the most humane way to do it? The gvt is planning a free vote and my money is on the act being repealed.
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I cant run the Country & they cant run the countryside
I rest my case
I rest my case
Petition then.
Sign it.
http://action.peta.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=5&ea.campaign.id=38695
Sign it.
http://action.peta.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=5&ea.campaign.id=38695
If it concerns you, obviously. Otherwise don't bother.Obviously.
Very sadly yes.....there are far too many foxes in towns who have a very poor quality life
Less foxes means a better life for the remaining foxes, hopefully there will enough rabbits to go round for them
Less foxes means a better life for the remaining foxes, hopefully there will enough rabbits to go round for them
From the Peta website
"Fox hunting, stag hunting and hare coursing are archaic bloodsports that have no place in modern Britain. Repealing the Hunting Act would be a disgraceful step backwards and could condemn countless wild animals to painful and terrifying deaths."
How anyone can argue with this statement is beyond me.
Signed and email sent to my MP.
Keep up the good work, Kenny.
"Fox hunting, stag hunting and hare coursing are archaic bloodsports that have no place in modern Britain. Repealing the Hunting Act would be a disgraceful step backwards and could condemn countless wild animals to painful and terrifying deaths."
How anyone can argue with this statement is beyond me.
Signed and email sent to my MP.
Keep up the good work, Kenny.
lol at foxy's sad face. Thanks ebul' a well put point.
Well I've signed too, MD, but not sure if they need culling. That's the main, and only question really.
Matter for country folk to decide -not townies. Foxes don't just kill because they need to eat.
Archaic bloodsport or traditional part of country life that has been that way for centuries?
Definitely not a part of 'sanitised, offend nobody (except those who revere tradition and colour), everything has rights modern Britain' I'd agree with PETA on that point - then again, nor is Halal slaughter but PETA wouldn't dare speak out about that, would they?
Painful deaths? The fox is killed in an instant - far more humane than traps (where the fox will gnaw off its own leg to escape) and poison. Fairer too. It's pure Darwinianism. The fittest animals escape - the weakest do not, which probably REALLY offends PETA and their supporters, who would prefer foxes to be described as 'differentially challenged' rather than 'fit' and 'weak'.
This was a bad law, ill-thought out, impossible to prosecute and, I suggest, based on petty class warfare which enabled an alliance of the 'right-ons' and the 'terminally fluffy' (who just love the ickul foxies) to bring each other off about how they had radically changed society for once - whilst of course, they have done nothing of the sort.
Definitely not a part of 'sanitised, offend nobody (except those who revere tradition and colour), everything has rights modern Britain' I'd agree with PETA on that point - then again, nor is Halal slaughter but PETA wouldn't dare speak out about that, would they?
Painful deaths? The fox is killed in an instant - far more humane than traps (where the fox will gnaw off its own leg to escape) and poison. Fairer too. It's pure Darwinianism. The fittest animals escape - the weakest do not, which probably REALLY offends PETA and their supporters, who would prefer foxes to be described as 'differentially challenged' rather than 'fit' and 'weak'.
This was a bad law, ill-thought out, impossible to prosecute and, I suggest, based on petty class warfare which enabled an alliance of the 'right-ons' and the 'terminally fluffy' (who just love the ickul foxies) to bring each other off about how they had radically changed society for once - whilst of course, they have done nothing of the sort.
Jun 15, 2015 -- 10:13PM, Manoleeds wrote:
Matter for country folk to decide -not townies. Foxes don't just kill because they need to eat.
And humans kill just to eat,????????? 
I often wonder just how much compassion these animals would show to humans if THEY were able to treat you as they wished. Not very much, I would guess.
Manoleeds, 219 posts since 2001, just as fecking well.
He is entitled to his opinion. It probably has more meaning because of its rarity. One should heed the man who speaks rarely.
naydam, and you are entitled to your opinion, and me mine. hth.
Oh, to answer one if your earlier question, Kenny.
If foxes need culling then yes, hunting with dogs is the most humane way ti do it.
If foxes need culling then yes, hunting with dogs is the most humane way ti do it.
If foxes need culling then yes, hunting with dogs is the most humane way ti do it.
That's what I suspected MD.
That's what I suspected MD.
Is it really? Being chased for hours til it is too exhausted to run any more?
Doesn't seem very efficient either - 20 men, 20 horses, 20 hounds taking a couple of hours to cull one fox. It's a long old job surely?
Doesn't seem very efficient either - 20 men, 20 horses, 20 hounds taking a couple of hours to cull one fox. It's a long old job surely?
Huntsabs say this, not surprisingly.
Do Foxes need Culling?
With the recent media attention on urban foxes the question has once again been raised about the need to cull foxes. The fox hunting community has always claimed that one of their raison d'être is to control the numbers of foxes in the countryside. So does this argument hold any water?
Germany banned fox hunting in 1934 and ironically, in 1947 rabies arrived. The German state attempted to solve the rabies problem by reducing the fox density below a certain threshold. These included attempts to hormonally sterilize foxes, distribution of poison baits, trapping, digging and destroying fox cubs in earths, general earth gassing and intensive general culling. None of these methods were successful in reducing and maintaining the fox population. The solution they now use is an oral vaccination which has successfully reduced numbers and controlled rabies.
So why do none of the ‘traditional’ methods outlined above work? A study of different culling practices on fox numbers in a large region (1,600 km2)including hunting with hounds, winter shooting, culling at the den and fertility control, showed that the most effective at reducing fox populations was culling at the den, which eliminates the mother with her cubs and winter shooting, which removes dispersing individuals. However, none of the methods was very effective at reducing overall fox numbers because immigrating foxes from other areas quickly replaced dead foxes. Two British studies have shown that have looked at the impact of culling on fox numbers have both found that killing foxes in the winter actually leads to a higher population in the spring when they start breeding because more foxes move in to contest the vacant space than were there originally.
Foxes are territorial animals, and the size of their territory is related to food availability. This is further complicated by factoring the dispersal of the food and time to gather such food. Depending on these factors and seasonal variation territory can vary between 0.1 km2 in urban environments to 40 km2 in the countryside. So the local fox population is therefore regulated by the amount and availability of the food supply.
The estimated fox population in the UK in 2001 was 225,000 with 33,000 of those living in an urban environment. It was estimated the fox hunts were killing about 5% of the countryside population. During the ban on hunting due to the foot and mouth epidemic there was there was no overall change in the fox population. Why is this? Fox litter sizes increase in direct proportion to food supply and availability of territory. According to Kolb (Country Foxes, 1996) the average litter of a vixen in the countryside where no fox control takes place is four to five cubs, but where extensive fox control has happened, such as on shooting estates, then the litter size increases to six or seven cubs. So the culling may reduce the fox population for a short space of time but the increase in litter sizes soon replaces the numbers killed. Add to this the fact that by freeing up territorial space, foxes from outside the culled area will move in to take over the now freed food supply. Kolb (Country Foxes) claims that mathematical models show that, to make a reduction in the number of foxes, you would need to kill over 75% of the current population. This would be impossible unless the breeding rates of gamekeepers and terrier men increase substantially! Of course if we had a massive decrease in country foxes we would likely see urban foxes migrating out to the countryside as territory is freed up, so such culling measures would need to cover urban population centres as well. The reality is that this is not feasible.
So as we have seen the general control methods used in this country will not control fox numbers? But this leaves the question; should we be using a more efficient method to reduce the fox population, such as in Germany? Leaving aside the ethical issues of any cull or population control method, what harm do foxes actually do?
There have been various studies on what foxes eat and results vary wildly between country and urban foxes as is to be expected. But there is also a massive variation in eating patterns between different areas of the countryside as well. Foxes are classified as carnivores, but in practice they will eat almost anything; they are, in effect omnivorous. The most current data comes from Baker and Harris (Urban Foxes). Country foxes’ diet consist mainly of lagomorphs (rabbits and hares) to the extent of 50-75%. What proportion of each species it is hard to tell as the diet information is gleaned by droppings and stomach contents, and the difference between hare and rabbit is extremely had to distinguish in such form. However, as it is clear that the population of rabbits far outweighs that of the hare, it is a safe assumption to make that the majority of foxes live mainly on a diet of rabbit. The next largest food source is birds, 10-25%, followed by small mammals 7-11%, large mammals 5-9%, with the remainder being taken up by insects, earthworms and fruit. There are a very small amount of birds eggs eaten, but less then .02 of a percentage. Roughly averaged out we get a diet as displayed in the diagram:
foxesdietgraph
So using this data the only logical reason to cull foxes would be because of two areas of foxes food supply, which interfere with human industry, large mammals and birds. But what exactly is included in these figures and from which source do they come from? Foxes will eat carrion and it is a fair assumption that a fair proportion of the large mammal percentage is taken up by animals that had been found dead by the fox. Foxes do not have the physical capabilities to take on anything larger than a cat. So although many farmers and countryside ‘experts’ claim that foxes kill new born lambs, the likelihood is that these are still-born or otherwise ill or weak animals abandoned by the ewe. If there is any killing it is a very small number.
Foxes do, of course kill chickens and young game birds such as pheasant and partridge, which are included in the 15% of birds in the diet. There is no way of knowing how much of this is poultry, game birds or other wild birds, so let us assume it is an easy 5% each. Chickens can be protected from foxes with a little hard work by the farmer using deterrents and fences, and most free range farms have little problem with foxes. Game birds are not such an easy bird to protect and I will expend no effort discussing the need to protect an artificially reared bird purely for the pleasure of shooting it at a later date.
Calculations on the effects Foxes have on the agriculture , as a whole, have shown that the due to their affect on the Rabbit population the balance is a gain of a few hundred pounds per fox so they are economically beneficial overall.
So to return to the main point of this article; do foxes need culling? Without a countrywide campaign the effects of any such localised culling is extremely limited and only lasts for a short period of time, so in and of itself fairly pointless. The real argument comes down to whether or not the fox is doing any real damage. It is clearly seen from the proportions of the fox’s diet that, with good poultry management the only people who suffer from fox predation to any real detriment are game estates. To cull a species because of a mere 5% of its diet, and then only so that the birds upon which it is feeding can then be slaughtered for pleasure is perverse, to say the least. So the science is clear; there is no need to reduce fox numbers, and left to its own devices the fox population will stabilise and control itself.
Do Foxes need Culling?
With the recent media attention on urban foxes the question has once again been raised about the need to cull foxes. The fox hunting community has always claimed that one of their raison d'être is to control the numbers of foxes in the countryside. So does this argument hold any water?
Germany banned fox hunting in 1934 and ironically, in 1947 rabies arrived. The German state attempted to solve the rabies problem by reducing the fox density below a certain threshold. These included attempts to hormonally sterilize foxes, distribution of poison baits, trapping, digging and destroying fox cubs in earths, general earth gassing and intensive general culling. None of these methods were successful in reducing and maintaining the fox population. The solution they now use is an oral vaccination which has successfully reduced numbers and controlled rabies.
So why do none of the ‘traditional’ methods outlined above work? A study of different culling practices on fox numbers in a large region (1,600 km2)including hunting with hounds, winter shooting, culling at the den and fertility control, showed that the most effective at reducing fox populations was culling at the den, which eliminates the mother with her cubs and winter shooting, which removes dispersing individuals. However, none of the methods was very effective at reducing overall fox numbers because immigrating foxes from other areas quickly replaced dead foxes. Two British studies have shown that have looked at the impact of culling on fox numbers have both found that killing foxes in the winter actually leads to a higher population in the spring when they start breeding because more foxes move in to contest the vacant space than were there originally.
Foxes are territorial animals, and the size of their territory is related to food availability. This is further complicated by factoring the dispersal of the food and time to gather such food. Depending on these factors and seasonal variation territory can vary between 0.1 km2 in urban environments to 40 km2 in the countryside. So the local fox population is therefore regulated by the amount and availability of the food supply.
The estimated fox population in the UK in 2001 was 225,000 with 33,000 of those living in an urban environment. It was estimated the fox hunts were killing about 5% of the countryside population. During the ban on hunting due to the foot and mouth epidemic there was there was no overall change in the fox population. Why is this? Fox litter sizes increase in direct proportion to food supply and availability of territory. According to Kolb (Country Foxes, 1996) the average litter of a vixen in the countryside where no fox control takes place is four to five cubs, but where extensive fox control has happened, such as on shooting estates, then the litter size increases to six or seven cubs. So the culling may reduce the fox population for a short space of time but the increase in litter sizes soon replaces the numbers killed. Add to this the fact that by freeing up territorial space, foxes from outside the culled area will move in to take over the now freed food supply. Kolb (Country Foxes) claims that mathematical models show that, to make a reduction in the number of foxes, you would need to kill over 75% of the current population. This would be impossible unless the breeding rates of gamekeepers and terrier men increase substantially! Of course if we had a massive decrease in country foxes we would likely see urban foxes migrating out to the countryside as territory is freed up, so such culling measures would need to cover urban population centres as well. The reality is that this is not feasible.
So as we have seen the general control methods used in this country will not control fox numbers? But this leaves the question; should we be using a more efficient method to reduce the fox population, such as in Germany? Leaving aside the ethical issues of any cull or population control method, what harm do foxes actually do?
There have been various studies on what foxes eat and results vary wildly between country and urban foxes as is to be expected. But there is also a massive variation in eating patterns between different areas of the countryside as well. Foxes are classified as carnivores, but in practice they will eat almost anything; they are, in effect omnivorous. The most current data comes from Baker and Harris (Urban Foxes). Country foxes’ diet consist mainly of lagomorphs (rabbits and hares) to the extent of 50-75%. What proportion of each species it is hard to tell as the diet information is gleaned by droppings and stomach contents, and the difference between hare and rabbit is extremely had to distinguish in such form. However, as it is clear that the population of rabbits far outweighs that of the hare, it is a safe assumption to make that the majority of foxes live mainly on a diet of rabbit. The next largest food source is birds, 10-25%, followed by small mammals 7-11%, large mammals 5-9%, with the remainder being taken up by insects, earthworms and fruit. There are a very small amount of birds eggs eaten, but less then .02 of a percentage. Roughly averaged out we get a diet as displayed in the diagram:
foxesdietgraph
So using this data the only logical reason to cull foxes would be because of two areas of foxes food supply, which interfere with human industry, large mammals and birds. But what exactly is included in these figures and from which source do they come from? Foxes will eat carrion and it is a fair assumption that a fair proportion of the large mammal percentage is taken up by animals that had been found dead by the fox. Foxes do not have the physical capabilities to take on anything larger than a cat. So although many farmers and countryside ‘experts’ claim that foxes kill new born lambs, the likelihood is that these are still-born or otherwise ill or weak animals abandoned by the ewe. If there is any killing it is a very small number.
Foxes do, of course kill chickens and young game birds such as pheasant and partridge, which are included in the 15% of birds in the diet. There is no way of knowing how much of this is poultry, game birds or other wild birds, so let us assume it is an easy 5% each. Chickens can be protected from foxes with a little hard work by the farmer using deterrents and fences, and most free range farms have little problem with foxes. Game birds are not such an easy bird to protect and I will expend no effort discussing the need to protect an artificially reared bird purely for the pleasure of shooting it at a later date.
Calculations on the effects Foxes have on the agriculture , as a whole, have shown that the due to their affect on the Rabbit population the balance is a gain of a few hundred pounds per fox so they are economically beneficial overall.
So to return to the main point of this article; do foxes need culling? Without a countrywide campaign the effects of any such localised culling is extremely limited and only lasts for a short period of time, so in and of itself fairly pointless. The real argument comes down to whether or not the fox is doing any real damage. It is clearly seen from the proportions of the fox’s diet that, with good poultry management the only people who suffer from fox predation to any real detriment are game estates. To cull a species because of a mere 5% of its diet, and then only so that the birds upon which it is feeding can then be slaughtered for pleasure is perverse, to say the least. So the science is clear; there is no need to reduce fox numbers, and left to its own devices the fox population will stabilise and control itself.
That's far too long. Sum it up in one sentence for me please.
ill vote for fox hunting.
I actually don't care much for fox hunting, and wouldn't ever go to a meet.
However foxes do need culling so might as well get on with it.
Also all these animal rights activists will go back on the case of fox hunting and leave horse racing and greyhound racing alone.
They never stop, they always have to have a "cause".
well good they can have fox hunting as far as im concerned.
I actually don't care much for fox hunting, and wouldn't ever go to a meet.
However foxes do need culling so might as well get on with it.
Also all these animal rights activists will go back on the case of fox hunting and leave horse racing and greyhound racing alone.
They never stop, they always have to have a "cause".
well good they can have fox hunting as far as im concerned.
and its not a pretty sight seeing a chicken coop after a fox has got in there.
Cheers maleuk. Easy to protect chickens from foxes though, as stated above.
So if we are to hunt/cull any species that resort to "Surplus killing" then why be selective, surely they all deserve the same treatment, I off to bed good night gents and good luck tomorrow, here is the known list..............
zooplankton, damselfly naiads, predaceous mites, martens, weasels, honey badgers, wolves, orcas, red foxes, leopards, lions, spotted hyenas, spiders, brown and black and polar bears, coyotes, lynx, mink, raccoons, dogs, house cats, and humans.
Good hunting.
zooplankton, damselfly naiads, predaceous mites, martens, weasels, honey badgers, wolves, orcas, red foxes, leopards, lions, spotted hyenas, spiders, brown and black and polar bears, coyotes, lynx, mink, raccoons, dogs, house cats, and humans.
Good hunting.
We can't do everything at once so its probably best just to concentrate on foxes for now. Besides, the weather's nice and you can't beat a nice canter round the countryside. Good for the complexion, good exercise for the hounds and the horses, too. All round...a jolly good show!
Hope it works. The sight after a fox tore it's way into my pigeon cage one night was not pleasant.
The government here pays $10 for every fox you kill. I will be a millionaire very shortly.
The government here pays $10 for every fox you kill. I will be a millionaire very shortly.
I live on a farm and there certainly hasn't been an increase in the amount of foxes I see since hunting was banned.
I am sincerely hoping the ban is not repealed. If it is will it mean that hare coursing will return?
I am sincerely hoping the ban is not repealed. If it is will it mean that hare coursing will return?
Makybe_Diva • June 15, 2015 10:51 PM BST
Oh, to answer one if your earlier question, Kenny.
If foxes need culling then yes, hunting with dogs is the most humane way ti do it
Hate to disagree with you Diva but how can chasing a fox until it is exhausted before being tore to shreds by a pack of dogs be humane?
Surely there must be a better way.
Oh, to answer one if your earlier question, Kenny.
If foxes need culling then yes, hunting with dogs is the most humane way ti do it
Hate to disagree with you Diva but how can chasing a fox until it is exhausted before being tore to shreds by a pack of dogs be humane?
Surely there must be a better way.
Yes,but the fox will get away or be killed.
Better than chewing its own leg off when caught in a trap or being shot and injured.
I agree not humane at all to chase a poor fox to exhaustion then rip it to pieces.
I hate fox hunting, really hoping the ban is not repealed.
If it is, it will be huge step backwards in the cause for animal rights.
Some of my family used to hunt. My grandfather, an aunt and a cousin. I never had any desire to go along.
My last horse used to be stabled on Exmoor by his previous owner for the stag hunting season
He used to go nuts when the hunt was about. I kept him in his stable or be would have been off and after them!
Better than chewing its own leg off when caught in a trap or being shot and injured.
I agree not humane at all to chase a poor fox to exhaustion then rip it to pieces.
I hate fox hunting, really hoping the ban is not repealed.
If it is, it will be huge step backwards in the cause for animal rights.
Some of my family used to hunt. My grandfather, an aunt and a cousin. I never had any desire to go along.
My last horse used to be stabled on Exmoor by his previous owner for the stag hunting season
He used to go nuts when the hunt was about. I kept him in his stable or be would have been off and after them!
I just detest fox hunting and hare coursing.
We should be looking at more humane methods with foxes if it is for culling.
We should be looking at more humane methods with foxes if it is for culling.
Yes, but we all suspect it is not for culling.
Hare coursing is just awful.
Muzzling the dogs doesn't improve things much for the hare either.
Hare coursing is just awful.
Muzzling the dogs doesn't improve things much for the hare either.
TBH I hate zoos equally as much. Unless it's for breeding and release purposes of endangered species it's equally cruel.
I also think that Dolphin/Orca centres should be banned.
I also think that Dolphin/Orca centres should be banned.
Towns are full of foxes, I know a man who has trapped 5 in his garden in the past 2 years,
I know a Woman who`s full grown Male Tom Cat killed a fox cub in its garden,
A Fox killed the Hedgehogs in my relatives garden, it was on top of his chicken shed last month,
A Fox has got 8 ducks from a local mans allotment because he does not lock them up at night,
Predators do Not control themselves, Foxes, Squirrels and Magpie`s are sure knocking off lots of prey, Wild and Domestic.
One woman feeds the Foxes a tray of chicken legs every week, she thinks they are her pets
[ This image is no longer available. ]
I know a Woman who`s full grown Male Tom Cat killed a fox cub in its garden,
A Fox killed the Hedgehogs in my relatives garden, it was on top of his chicken shed last month,
A Fox has got 8 ducks from a local mans allotment because he does not lock them up at night,
Predators do Not control themselves, Foxes, Squirrels and Magpie`s are sure knocking off lots of prey, Wild and Domestic.
One woman feeds the Foxes a tray of chicken legs every week, she thinks they are her pets
[ This image is no longer available. ]
calling slippy blue ...could you have a word with yor lady friend concerning and explain the fine and noble art of coursing .
TIA .
A dont want to be upsetting her
TIA .
A dont want to be upsetting her
When the ban was first introduced I was against it for the simple reason the foxes had a far better chance of surviving than getting a bullet through their heads.When hunting was allowed the local farmers etc. who went hunting tolerated a few foxes so they could have a days hunting,not now I'm afraid.It's see them,shoot them.This proposed cull in my opinion is now because of the number of foxes in the towns & cities,not in the countryside.It isn't a rural thing nowadays,it's an urban problem so of course things must be put right for the townies.
As for it being easy keeping foxes out of the hen shed,well let me reassure you it isn't.These things will get in where a draught can't & it isn't a pleasant job going down on a morning ,burying the hens carcasses because the fox wanted a bit of fun.
As for it being easy keeping foxes out of the hen shed,well let me reassure you it isn't.These things will get in where a draught can't & it isn't a pleasant job going down on a morning ,burying the hens carcasses because the fox wanted a bit of fun.
Cats should be added to Foxes in this repeal. Cat hunts (don't mix up the words all you confused out there!!) Imagine charging around West London on a Hunter. Giddy up !!!
You still living in FIFI's 4000 dollar a month flat???
ps my problem is squirrels digging up plants, so foxes (we have three charging around here) and cats, are less of a priority.
ps my problem is squirrels digging up plants, so foxes (we have three charging around here) and cats, are less of a priority.
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