IS burn alive a Jordanian pilot

King Abdullah seems like a man who won't stop until IS are wiped out.

he is playing to the gallery. He will send a few jets more for a few days before returning to their former state whilst for someone else to do dirty work.

Unfortunately, Fozwald, I think the latter cases are the more likely outcome.

Napalm is an appalling weapon used a lot by the US in Vietnam
it could arguably be banned

But nothing justifies burning a man alive in a cage this is evil

Yes IS do need to be destroyed. I have posted to this effect over the past year on here and the politics forum

Even by terrorist standards these people are bad.


But we won't commit ground troops will we?

They must be suffering from these never ending air attacks, but it will take time, this resort to extreme sadism is

an effort to discourage them, but will not work, although I don't think any pilot can eject over IS

territory. They go down with their plane.

makes sense ebul.

any pilot flying over IS territory should be issued with a suicide pill - with an option to take quickly if captured.

it would have saved this young man an enormous amount of suffering

I've not read the Qur'an for a long while. Is suicide allowed?

I am not their GOD but I will make an exception here

Is suicide allowed? I don't know but a lot of these 'wired to detonate' bombers must realise that death at their own hand is quite likely!

..good point

Not really, that would come under martyrdom. Wasting ones life without taking a few infidels with you is a no no i would have thought..

Not many infidels about in an Iraqi market place. I don't think they're too fussy about the minor details, just the quantity.
Anyway, the pilot should be well qualified. He'll be able to show them film footage of his deeds. That should impress the 'Paradise Committee'!

The pilot served his country

Still you are not for turning are you Naydam

I wonder if you know what you are saying though, do we really want a world where human beings

act like IS have just done

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/yes-isis-burned-man-alive-white-americans-did-same-thing-thousands-black-people

interesting piece

Indeed they did in the deep South

An appalling side of racism, I do not approve of this whoever does it

I don't know what you mean by 'not for turning'. Do you mean because I find it quite understandable that little mercy would be shown to this pilot? Actually, I would have been amazed if had been treated the same as other hostage victims.
ISIS are a terrorist group...their best weapon is terror itself. They have no aircraft with which to retaliate against air strikes and napalm, so they reproduce the effects as well as they can.
Burning is a terrible death, but that applies to all of the people burned in this confrontation.

you rather prove my point

do you not understand, someone serving in their countries armed forces has to do what they are told

it the politicians who are responsible

as for justifying this...that is totally beyond me....I admit?????

There is also something called the Geneva convention not that IS have ever taken note of that

They won't have signed up for it. Therefore it doesn't apply.

Perhaps the ISIS chappies who carried out that punishment were also 'just doing what they were told'. Not difficult to imagine.

I'm actually quite surprised at the general reaction to the death of a military pilot whose raison d'etre would seem to be to blast people into blood and gore, or inflict horrendous burns, from the comfort of his air-conditioned cockpit.

Yep that sounds like another "devil's advocate" comment.

Of course what you fail to recognise with your latest "devil's advocate" venture is that his "raison d'etre" was to inflict casualties on a group who have committed widespread atrocities and will commit many more if they're not stopped.

The general reaction wasn't just to the way they killed him which was bad enough but also to the fact those sick feckers made a Hollywood style video glorifying it.

Many people have gone to join ISIS so it should come as no surprise to find some on here supporting and defending them.

Naydam you are lost, you really are

What don't you understand about the fact that any pilot falling captive to the people he has been bombing and burning to death is going to face extremely harsh punishment.
The pilots can't expect to be treated nicely when you've just dumped a tonne of napalm on the people who now want revenge.
ISIS aren't the only ones who film people burning to death. There was footage only yesterday of napalm attacks by Jordan on a training camp. That equates to many more deaths than a single pilot...all burnt to death.

I understand that very well naydam. What I also understand is that your little "devil's advocate" act is actually you believing that pilot got what he deserved. At least have the balls to say it straight instead of this seeing it from the Isis point of view claptrap.

how the hell they supposed to train when they got bombs falling all around them. i take your point.

NAYDAM, maybe you just enlighten us on how to tackle these fanatics or do we just let them carry on with their atrocities.

Marcce    08 Feb 15 01:58 
I understand that very well naydam. What I also understand is that your little "devil's advocate" act is actually you believing that pilot got what he deserved. At least have the balls to say it straight instead of this seeing it from the Isis point of view claptrap.

Doing that would expose him for what he is: an apologist for ISIS.

Hi Wesdaq. Nice to see that you've got me down as an ISIS apologist.

Marce. I am pointing out that the pilot received the treatment he would have, or should have, expected upon being captured. He must have known that he would most likely face a harsher punishment than beheading.

If the cap fits, wear it.

And with pride it seems.

Would you care to explain what you mean?  I don't really expect an answer. Except, maybe, to be called some other name.

We know what you keep pointing out. Pointing that out, which could have been done with one post, seemingly hasn't been enough for you and so you keep returning with comments like the one I referred to above.

Personally I think you should walk away from this thread because you're really not clever enough to play devil's advocate without it betraying what is clearly your own point of view.

^ Spot on.

Thank you Wesdaq, for your insightful post.
Marce. I ceased my attempt at devil's advocate several pages ago. I posted to that effect at the time.
Yes, my own point of view and opinion is that any captured pilots are in grave danger of horrendous treatment. Does your point of view differ? What IS our point of view? Being appalled doesn't count as a point of view. We are all (probably all) appalled.
I have attempted to explain the rationale for thinking as I do. I have tried to get some of you to realise that this type of revenge (death...not specifically death by burning) is a normal reaction when the enemy or targeted personnel become a pilot's/aircrew's captors. It happened in Viet Nam. It happened in Germany. It probably happened in Britain. It happens everywhere...especially when the prisoners are not protected by the Geneva Convention.
I have also been asked by Glasgow Calling how I would go about sorting out the ISIS problem. Well, firstly I would try diplomatic channels, you can learn a lot by talking to people. Failing that, I'd probably go for cluster bombs rather than napalm. That's just a personal preference. Of course, the best opposition to them would be stiff resistance.

It seems to me that ISIS work along existing fracture lines in the region. They instil terror. They make good use of propaganda to achieve their aim. The tricky bit is deciding what IS their aim.

I DO wish that you might cease to see everybody who doesn't tut in harmony as some sort of terrorist sympathiser!

If burning a pilot is even remotely excusable, due to the fact that bombing results in their people getting burned....

Maybe IS should have written a nasty article about the captured journalists....... rather than behead them.

I agree.

To be fair, naydam has never said that the pilot's punishment was excusable, merely that it was sadly inevitable given his role in attacking ISIS, and their known barbarism.

If you are incapable of making that distinction, as he clearly did, then you should stick to arguing with your goldfish.

You fit the bill well there jed...about the intelligence of a goldfish

If you excuse what IS have done because no one should attack barbarians such as these....then they have won

naydam wrote, " well firstly i would try diplomatic channels ",   

  ....  nearly choked on my toasted teacake 

To be fair, naydam has never said that the pilot's punishment was excusable, merely that it was sadly inevitable given his role in attacking ISIS, and their known barbarism.

If you are incapable of making that distinction, as he clearly did, then you should stick to arguing with your goldfish.

On the contrary he had been asked a number of times during the thread if he believed that it was the pilot's own fault and has never given a straight answer.

If you haven't been able to see that then maybe you should stick to arguing......well you know the rest.

For crying pout loud, Marce! The pilot's rather gruesome end was the almost5 inevitable result of a person in his position being captured in those circumstances. How on earth can I 'believe that he deserved it'? It was simply the totally expected outcome for the situation. How else could it end?

You all call these people barbarians...we generally agree that they ARE barbarians. So why are you so surprised when they act like ****g barbarians??

Well, Glasgow, they probably have a goal. I have little doubt that diplomatic contact exists between the various factions. I DID also recommend cluster bombs (only for personal reasons) and ultimately, stiff resistance. This, of course, means resistance on the ground.
Perhaps I should have been more clear and provided more detail...something which seems oddly lacking from other areas.

Luckily we've always got good old Wesdaq's vital input.

Oh I don't know naydam. Maybe it's comments like this that arouse suspicion.

Or even the whether he was shot down in pursuit of his evil work.

Bombing has been acceptable since WWII, men, women and children die in lots of awful ways

including burning....The Blitz, Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, etc


I have blocked Naydam so I cannot read his posts, frankly I do not want to

Is Naydam arging that everybody who has ever carried a bombing raid, should be burned alive in a cage

naydom is either an extremist muslim or a sympathiser who tries to hide his true feelings behind statements like 'playing devils advocate' or whatever.
He doesn't have the balls to come out with it without the window dressing.

Well, let's say that, if Germany had won WW2, 'Bomber' Harris would have faced trial for war crimes.

You haven't a clue naydam. You have no idea what constitutes a war crime.

Naydam is neither Muslim nor extreme. Just plain rational.
I will confess that IF I was a Muslim and IF I was an ISIS jihadist and this Jordanian fella had been bombing the **** out of me, my family and my mates and IF I had to try to ease their suffering as they died then YES YES YES you can bet that I would have hated that bastard and I would have visualised a very sticky end for him. And that would be something considerably more memorable than a bullet in the head!
And in those circumstances, SO WOULD YOU!

Your true colours showing now. At least have the balls to own up to being a muslim. Mohammed naydam, sounds about right.

Did I say that?

You should just give up naydam, before these idiots send you doolally.

I have. Given up, that is! 

jed.davison

To be fair, naydam has never said that the pilot's punishment was excusable, merely that it was sadly inevitable given his role in attacking ISIS, and their known barbarism.
If you are incapable of making that distinction, as he clearly did, then you should stick to arguing with your goldfish.



naydam

Naydam is neither Muslim nor extreme. Just plain rational.
I will confess that IF I was a Muslim and IF I was an ISIS jihadist and this Jordanian fella had been bombing the **** out of me, my family and my mates and IF I had to try to ease their suffering as they died then YES YES YES you can bet that I would have hated that bastard and I would have visualised a very sticky end for him. And that would be something considerably more memorable than a bullet in the head!
And in those circumstances, SO WOULD YOU!


You still think that Jed. Seems to me he's went beyond that with that post.

Only because that's what you want to believe - I think he has explained his point perfectly well.

You are just seeing what you want to see.

Next the ISIS apologist will be telling us that ISIS are actually misunderstood Quakers.

Good for you. I find it strange that someone could say they could take part in an action like this.
I would think the people who could do the likes of this act of barbarity would be a miniscule fraction of mankind.

You are just seeing what you want to see.

I think this is pretty clear cut personally. I suppose some people have more clear vision than others.

Or even the whether he was shot down in pursuit of his evil work.

So would I akabula, so would I.

But then we've never been bombed from the air by modern fighter planes. All Naydam was trying to say was that had that happened to us, we may have a different view.

That hardly makes him an ISIS apologist in my view. I find you all shouting him down - for attempting to understand as well as any of us can how that poor fellow ended up being burned alive in a cage - quite discomfiting. At no point has he justified it, or said it was right and proper, he merely asked you to see the situation from the point of view of the people being bombed.

Sounds like an apologist to me.

Never considers why ISIS are being bombed in the first place and only talks of the pilot, to paraphrase, "pursuing his evil work."

That work would only be thought of as being evil if you happened to have any sympathy for ISIS.

Ok. So he was bombing them in a friendly manner! Is THAT alright?


I'm going this is futile.

Not sure why naydam is getting so much stick over this. Other than his initial 'devil's advocate' post, he's summed things up fairly accurately imo.

Can't speak for others but personally speaking he's getting stick from me because his comments suggest he believes that there was no justification for the pilot's missions whilst arguing the justification for what Isis did to him.

Yes we know why they chose the most horrific way possible to kill him. Anyone who has seen the video knows the angle they took. However, I do take exception to his use of the term "evil" in his references to the pilot. Of course bombing is horrific but in this world there are necessary evils and as wesdag has pointed out not once has naydam recognised that point.

The other problem I have with naydam is a number of ill informed comments i.e. not knowing if the pilot was on combat or aid missions, thinking Jordan had pulled out of further air attacks etc. In my experience ill informed people make ill informed comments and the cap fits here I think.

I don't think he's said there is no justification for the pilot's missions, at all. He's merely pointed out that any such downed pilot can expect a particularly grisly end. We're dealing with nutters - ISIS, not naydam :) - don't be surprised when they behave like nutters!

Also, it's a little perverse that there is so much outrage about the abhorrent manner in which Mr al-Kasaesbeh was executed, to the extent that a filmed beheading is presumably seen as preferrable.

Apologies for spelling his name wrong - I c+p'ed from this. Stupid Independent can't manage to spell his name consistently!

Lt. Muath al Kaseasbeh
Muath al-Kasaesbeh was the Jordanian lieutenant captured and torched to death on camera by Islamist extremists. The Independent.

The comment keeps getting posted Mikael. What exactly does the pilot being "in pursuit of his evil work" suggest to you?

No justification? Merely pointing out that a downed pilot would be more harshly treated than any other hostage?

There's been several comments like that along the way. I've said it before on this thread but providing an explanation for why they chose that particular method of killing him could have been covered in one post. The problem has been the number of other posts neydam has made containing references to the pilot with a veiled inference that what he was doing was wrong.

If IS has aspirations to be treated as a state inn its own right it should adhere to the Geneva Convention which explains how prisoners should be treated,otherwise it deserves total war without restraint.This lot are beginning to justify Radovan Karadzic actions in Bosnia.

British soldiers have shot prisoners dead in Afghanistan. The US has proudly waterboarded prisoners at Gitmo. I'm not comparing either to burning someone alive in a cage btw.

I apologise. Please change 'evil' to 'gruesome' or 'murderous'. I am only trying to form a view based upon the likely feelings of the people on the ground, and THEY would regard his work as seriously unfriendly!
I must also confess that my comment about possibly flying aid missions was a bit naughty. I didn't think for one moment that he was a transport pilot. I have only seen one picture of the man and he was standing (posing?) in front of an F-16. I don't know for sure that it was HIS F-16 although I have a sneaking suspicion.

Now, is there anything else that you would like clarified?

Just in case it might prove relevant...I have not seen footage of this burning or, for that matter, the earlier beheadings. I'd bet that most of you have! So you are guilty of lending power to the ISIS propaganda machine. Shame on you!

Just another point to clarify. I DID state that Jordan had ceased flying mission in that area. I was wrong. It was the UAE who stopped.
I should have been paying more attention.

Mikael, the UK government sentenced sgt Alexander Blackman,a royal marine who had just been attacked by the Taliban to several years in jail for killing one of his attackers instead of capturing him. That is the difference.
No neydam,most of us haven't watched that footage and shame on you for suggesting decent people might do so.

That's interesting because I have just Googled Jordanian Pilot in an attempt to identify aircraft type and I find there is a site by somebody Wictor who absolutely disputes that the pilot was burned when alive. He states that the whole thing is choreographed and the flames are added later. His comments are very interesting.
Now, obviously this guy could be a crank...but I can't say one way or the other, as that would entail watching the video which I have no wish to do. I also noted a comment by the Pentagon (I think) with the phrase 'alleged' burning (or something like that).

Plenty of decent people have watched it, treetop, including some who are having a go at naydam. Piers Morgan said he's 'glad' he watched it, although he hasn't posted on this thread.

Mikael, naydam and Jed do you think people on here are stupid?
Everybody realises that anyone taken prisoner by IS will suffer a horrible fate.
Whilst it was pointing out the obvious naydam took it a step further and started justifying it.
That's the issue that I, and I suppose others, have with his posts.

It is a sad reflection on todays world, that there is a means for people to view these burnings & beheadings. I personally have never, & will never watch such things.

If this is progress, maybe the internet was not such a good idea after all.

Aka, they're stupid if they think that naydam was 'justifying' it.

You couldn't pay me to watch stuff like this. Once accidentally hit on a similar vid (similar in that it showed someone being killed) and it made me feel ill for months afterwards.
In fact e even now, years later, I'm still sickened by the images.

Read his posts again. Continually says he's not justifying it then says he'd act in the same manner.

You might do the same yourself. Who knows?

I remember the first time I ever saw the Vietcong 'terrorist' being summarily executed in the street. At the time (early 90s, I was about 20,) it was one fo the most shocking things I'd ever seen. Now, I recognise he was probably quite fortunate since he suffered so little. It's war - there are barbarians on all sides.

Such behaviour CANNOT ever be justified and trying to do so by saying we might be tempted to react that way is shameful. That was coldblooded murder,calculated to enrage some but appeal to other,more impressionable minds for them to join with IS ideals.

IF I was a Muslim and IF I was an ISIS jihadist and this Jordanian fella had been bombing the **** out of me, my family and my mates

I like Ms Naydams thoughts on the bastards that are ISIL sitting down and watching the mussy version of Corrie with their family and friends when the wicked coalition drop a bomb on their unsepecting nappers. She really should do some research (sadly lacking) on just what and who is being targeted , and why..

Mikael D'Haguenet

You might do the same yourself. Who knows?

I know I would be incapable of such an act and so would every decent person.
Seems like you are trying to defend this action as well.

How do you know unless you're in that situation, aka? I'd like to think I could never kill any animal, including we humans, much less burn a man alive, but the people we're talking about (ISIS) were nutters before Jordan started bombing them. They cut the heads off aid workers FFS, they're certainly not going to humanely despatch their enemy.

I know I would be incapable of such an act and so would every decent person.

but many so called decent people think incinerating people from an f15 is the act of an hero.

I have tried to read through this thread and note that naydam repeatedly talks about the use of napalm against ISIS. As far as I can tell, nobody has challenged him on this assumption and all the footage I have seen on TV involves what looks like smart bombs being used in order to minimise civilian casualties.
I would be pleased, naydam, if you could supply some evidence to support your claim.

anyone capable of beleiving diplomatic channels can be followed with these ANIMALS is totally deluded, i would guess the napalm

bombs are also part delusion untill proven.

Her Majesty Queen Rania Al Abdullah's televised message:

.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ti7BoL7VuA&feature=youtu.be

[img]http://images.onesite.com/community.betfair.com/user/ken_masters/fack_o...

Whereas 'smart' bombs lend themselves to television film footage by nature of their high altitude drop and the theatrical focus of the target crosshairs, other munitions have a much lower release point.
The television producers decided that footage from a fast-moving, low-level aircraft showed nothing of any interest to the ghouls (apart from a lot of terrain/troops/vehicles flashing by at the bottom of the screen) and so they deemed it unsuitable.
The only good view that you get from a napalm burst is from ground level. Now, the BBC have asked ISIS (through the open diplomatic channels)if they could do them a favour and capture some of this desirable footage.

So far, they have only learnt the Arabic words for **** and off.

Ken

I would also suggest that hostage negotiations is diplomatic process.

If YOU don't think so...I don't care.


I shall attempt to refrain from returning to this thread due to the headache caused from contact with the wall.

Bye then...

Nala Aiz Yadullah Del Aly Maja

Still no evidence then.

so let me get this right, in NAYDAMS world a £200 million ransom is now called using diplomatic channels !!

Foinavon. You will need to contact the Jordanian Air Force (or similar) for your evidence. Or possibly, ISIS.

Gloasgow. It's called bartering. You ask for more than you expect to get and you offer less than intend to pay. Then, through negotiation you hopefully arrive at a figure that is agreeable to the buyer and the vendor. Sometimes this is unsuccessful and no deal is agreed upon.

I think these methods may have worked in the past, possibly for smaller settlements.

Anyway, I am now heartily bored and teatime calls.

naydam

Anyway, I am now heartily bored and teatime calls.

One things for sure there won't be any bacon involved. Enjoy your tea Mohahahammed.

Foinavon. You will need to contact the Jordanian Air Force (or similar) for your evidence. Or possibly, ISIS.

Naydam, you have stated on several occasions that napalm was used in order to build your case to justify why IS chose to kill the pilot in such a barbaric fashion.

By you own admission we can now take it that this was pure speculation on your part without a shred of evidence and probably completely false.

Shush! Walls have ears. It's from an undisclosed source.

Anybody who is shocked by this can count themselves a decent normal human being...

unless they want to live in a world where sadism and torture are normal

My view is IS have forfeited their right to life, and need to be destroyed asp.

My suggestion is the West massively steps up its air attacks in response to this

You see there are only two things we can do here

One is to back off, so in fact they have deterred us, which is why they have done this

Or we take it back to them even harder, to make it clear to them this won't work, which I favour

But it is our governments who make these choices