Chit Chat
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
22 Dec 14
15:37
Joined:
Date Joined:
15 Jun 14
This is not sounding good at all. Sky reckon 6 dead.
Show More
tobermory
joke country that this tweeting idiot has been arrested
Has he been arrested? I know he went to the police station.
Public opinion has resulted in some of these cretins getting arrested and whilst ott I've no sympathy for them.
TMM I think they should be barred from wherever they have posted their offensive stuff.
BTW for those who speak of freedom of speech then engage your brain. Freedom of speech doesn't give anyone the right to be offensive.
joke country that this tweeting idiot has been arrested
Has he been arrested? I know he went to the police station.
Public opinion has resulted in some of these cretins getting arrested and whilst ott I've no sympathy for them.
TMM I think they should be barred from wherever they have posted their offensive stuff.
BTW for those who speak of freedom of speech then engage your brain. Freedom of speech doesn't give anyone the right to be offensive.
Glasgowcalling..... Possibly but I am sure the family of the victims have bigger fish to fry than sharing a room with someone who made a stupid comment that only became famous because of a sh1thouse tabloid and a few tw1tter w@nkers. Oh and a couple of betfair w@nkers like us still discussing it when we should have better things to do. Just let it die for fk sake. And I refer to myself there.
Freedom of speech let us have street parties for Thatchers death....
Yeah, if someone I knew had died in an incident like this, I wouldn't give a crap about people posting stuff on twitter. Those losing their rag are just angry at the world and their part in it.
A mother watching her daughter killed is bad enough, but to lose her mum and dad in the same accident is a pain beyond repair.
May she gain some strength from somewhere to get through this..
May she gain some strength from somewhere to get through this..
This is a bit freaky how they've not released any info about the driver and 2 co passengers. I'm not sure what the precedent is for things like this but wouldn't the gutter press normally go digging up stuff about him/them, at least their names and a picture? All I've heard is that he was slumped across the steering wheel and he had 2 co passengers. The french are apparently playing down a few similar things over the ditch but at least one of them was defo a terrorist attack iirc. If this was as well I guess our authorities would want to play it down too. Not even a name, but imagine the panic if the name was released and it was, for instance, Mohammed?
Surely that information would have leaked out if it was a Mohammed by now. People in the hospital/bin lorry company would all know
Well I don't do twitter and stuff. has anything been said on there? The government can keep the press quiet every now and then. Like, for instance, a prominent politician's daughter's suicide bid a few years back.
The other two in the cab leapt out apparently, more likely to be Poles than Muslims?
The lack of information released will only fuel suspicions.
We do not know details , but colleagues will know which bin crew it was & this must be common knowledge in parts of the city.
We do not know details , but colleagues will know which bin crew it was & this must be common knowledge in parts of the city.
TheBetterBettor
Freedom of speech let us have street parties for Thatchers death....
Of course it did. Pretty childish and pathetic imo to watch grown men and women celebrating the death of an old women.
Freedom of speech let us have street parties for Thatchers death....
Of course it did. Pretty childish and pathetic imo to watch grown men and women celebrating the death of an old women.
sixtwosix
The lack of information released will only fuel suspicions
Certainly is suspicious. If he's Asian for instance people might jump to conclusions so that could be a reason for saying nowt.
As someone elss said the info will be known at his work base so surprised he hasn't been identified on the likes of twitter.
The lack of information released will only fuel suspicions
Certainly is suspicious. If he's Asian for instance people might jump to conclusions so that could be a reason for saying nowt.
As someone elss said the info will be known at his work base so surprised he hasn't been identified on the likes of twitter.
Agree with 626. Nothing comes up on google when you try and search for the driver's name. It is kind of beyond comprehension that he wouldn't be named somewhere in the media and/or internet without some sort of cover up.
maybe it will be criminal,and police gathering evidence
drink,deliberate act?
drink,deliberate act?
best diagram route of crash--it happened fast,supports heart attack?
http://www.scoopnest.com/user/ScottishSun/547291993916059648
http://www.scoopnest.com/user/ScottishSun/547291993916059648
xmoneyx
maybe it will be criminal,and police gathering evidence
drink,deliberate act?
The police made a statement early on saying it was a tragic accident and there was no reason to suspect anything else.
Probably not been identified to keep the media away from him and his family.
maybe it will be criminal,and police gathering evidence
drink,deliberate act?
The police made a statement early on saying it was a tragic accident and there was no reason to suspect anything else.
Probably not been identified to keep the media away from him and his family.
What are the odds?
Case A: A terrorist attack.
Case B: For some other reason a big vehicle has ploughed into pedestrians in a big city centre area (something I can't recall ever ever happening on this scale in my 36 years on the planet), at christmas time at the same time as a similar thing happened in France and that was a terrorist attack.
Case A: A terrorist attack.
Case B: For some other reason a big vehicle has ploughed into pedestrians in a big city centre area (something I can't recall ever ever happening on this scale in my 36 years on the planet), at christmas time at the same time as a similar thing happened in France and that was a terrorist attack.
police said at this time it's looking a tragic accident
the pain of the poor woman who saw her mother, father & daughter die in front of her must be unimaginable - unfortunately tragedy is part of life which we all endure to some extent throughout our time but some do seem to suffer grief far more than others - lets hope it was simply a tragic accident although that sentiment is probably meaningless to all those directly involved - very sad
Driver is called harry according to press.
Vehicle looks like its traveling about 40 mph ish
Reports suggested the two crew climbed out after impact with hotel so not sure where the "lept out" is coming from ? ,they did not say if driver was able to get out on his own but it looks like he was unconscious just before it struck hotel imo and it,s not impossible someone else was in the front trying to reach the break .Not sure but think the truck is a Daf but not a full crew cab so not 100% sure about passenger seating ,prob rear .One report said a witness thought driver was having a fit.Vehicle initially looked out of control it was reported and swerved about and then straight down the pavement in a line until it hit skoda taxi and then hotel.Taxi driver not among the dead .The steering would be power steering and these are self centering and could explain straight line imo .
In this age of litigation and blame not surprising that their is little coming out until everything has been established .
There is a vid and think it shows driver slightly slumped over to his left and maybe someone trying to reach brake with left foot and facing driver but very grainy.
Looks like a horrific accident ,vehicle will be an auto or semi auto and driver must have had his foot on the pedal ,could have been a lot worse if it had taken out the ferris wheel and accross the skating rink ect .Seconds earlier and it would have been a bus side on or it could have ploughed straight through a busy shopfront .Knocked down taffic lights and signs like they were not there ,the twin axle truck would weigh about 16 tonne .
As bad as it was it could have been a lot worse .
Vehicle looks like its traveling about 40 mph ish
Reports suggested the two crew climbed out after impact with hotel so not sure where the "lept out" is coming from ? ,they did not say if driver was able to get out on his own but it looks like he was unconscious just before it struck hotel imo and it,s not impossible someone else was in the front trying to reach the break .Not sure but think the truck is a Daf but not a full crew cab so not 100% sure about passenger seating ,prob rear .One report said a witness thought driver was having a fit.Vehicle initially looked out of control it was reported and swerved about and then straight down the pavement in a line until it hit skoda taxi and then hotel.Taxi driver not among the dead .The steering would be power steering and these are self centering and could explain straight line imo .
In this age of litigation and blame not surprising that their is little coming out until everything has been established .
There is a vid and think it shows driver slightly slumped over to his left and maybe someone trying to reach brake with left foot and facing driver but very grainy.
Looks like a horrific accident ,vehicle will be an auto or semi auto and driver must have had his foot on the pedal ,could have been a lot worse if it had taken out the ferris wheel and accross the skating rink ect .Seconds earlier and it would have been a bus side on or it could have ploughed straight through a busy shopfront .Knocked down taffic lights and signs like they were not there ,the twin axle truck would weigh about 16 tonne .
As bad as it was it could have been a lot worse .
xmoneyx
xmoneyx
23 Dec 14 10:28
Joined: 12 Jul 11 | Topic/replies: 23,873 | Blogger: xmoneyx's blog
3 in cab,why didn't other two pull handbrake?
Not too far off with that comment xmoneyx. Not only do these vehicles have a handbrake but they also have a 'dead man' device which would have enabled one of the other staff to easily operate. This device shuts the whole vehicle down immediately. I can only imagine there was panic on board. Terrible tragedy.
xmoneyx
23 Dec 14 10:28
Joined: 12 Jul 11 | Topic/replies: 23,873 | Blogger: xmoneyx's blog
3 in cab,why didn't other two pull handbrake?
Not too far off with that comment xmoneyx. Not only do these vehicles have a handbrake but they also have a 'dead man' device which would have enabled one of the other staff to easily operate. This device shuts the whole vehicle down immediately. I can only imagine there was panic on board. Terrible tragedy.
Judging by the abuse being aimed at all the bin crews(Radio Scotland news) I think they are just protecting the driver's family
Pretty childish and pathetic imo to watch grown men and women celebrating the death of an old women.
Goodness akabula, I didn't realise there was more than one of her.
Remember though, that many many people celebrated the demise of Mussolini, Hitler etc.
As for the tragedy, we are going to have to be patient as far as information is concerned, although I can't help thinking that we should have definitive answers by now to basic questions such as, how many people were in the cab? Was the driver conscious or not when the vehicle came to a halt? Conflicting reports here.
Meanwhile, sad to hear on TV that people have been abusing bin lorry staff.
Goodness akabula, I didn't realise there was more than one of her.
Remember though, that many many people celebrated the demise of Mussolini, Hitler etc.
As for the tragedy, we are going to have to be patient as far as information is concerned, although I can't help thinking that we should have definitive answers by now to basic questions such as, how many people were in the cab? Was the driver conscious or not when the vehicle came to a halt? Conflicting reports here.
Meanwhile, sad to hear on TV that people have been abusing bin lorry staff.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/glasgow-bin-lorry-crash-driver-identity-protected-1-3645006
Driver, and 2 co passengers identities protected indefinitely.
Is this normal?
Driver, and 2 co passengers identities protected indefinitely.
Is this normal?
There must be dozens if not hundreds who know who the driver was, since
there has to be a fatal accident enquiry prsumably the names will have to come out.
there has to be a fatal accident enquiry prsumably the names will have to come out.
^^^^^surely a freedom of information request could over turn that.
A new Scottish problem? Seems endemic.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/man-dies-after-being-by-bin-lorry-in-inverness-1-3648567
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/man-dies-after-being-by-bin-lorry-in-inverness-1-3648567
Alias
Meanwhile, sad to hear on TV that people have been abusing bin lorry staff.
Pity you weren't of that mindset when you were chucking bricks through the windows of those betting NO.
Meanwhile, sad to hear on TV that people have been abusing bin lorry staff.
Pity you weren't of that mindset when you were chucking bricks through the windows of those betting NO.
why would you post that ?? unless you have some severe mental problems going on.
Jan 3, 2015 -- 10:12PM, rob_dylan wrote:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/glasgow-bin-lorry-crash-driver-identity-protected-1-3645006Driver, and 2 co passengers identities protected indefinitely.Is this normal?
Never heard of anything like this before . Hard to see how the can completely rule out the culpabilty of the driver without an inquest/inquiry of some sort . And if they can't have ruled out his being culpable how can they guarantee he will never be named (as he would have to be if he was found guilty of being reckless etc ) 
His name will be on Twitter soon enough I would imagine.
Why do people need to know, or feel they even have a right to know?
I'm sure the guy feels absolutely awful for something that is apparently AFAIK not his fault, I can only imagine how the poor man is feeling. If he'd had a heart attack or a fit and went into a lampost it wouldn't have made more than a couple paragraphs in the local paper, but life can be cruel.
Last thing he needs is the kn*bs on twitter on his case.
I'm sure the guy feels absolutely awful for something that is apparently AFAIK not his fault, I can only imagine how the poor man is feeling. If he'd had a heart attack or a fit and went into a lampost it wouldn't have made more than a couple paragraphs in the local paper, but life can be cruel.
Last thing he needs is the kn*bs on twitter on his case.
I think if he has a past which includes traffic incidents or alcohol related offences such as drink driving, then the families and the public should know. If he's as clean as a whistle and it was heart attack, then agree there would be very little need to know. His name has probably already been on twitter come to think of it. just read apparently the family are 'satisfied it was an accident' though.
If they name him now it's pretty hard to un-name him. Innocent until proven guilty. If someone he DID do something wrong then naming him might be reasonable. Unfortunately there are a lot of idiots around though 
Pity you weren't of that mindset when you were chucking bricks through the windows of those betting NO.
That would have been impossible since no windows around here had "no" posters in them.
PS I assume you meant voting no, ya numpty.
That would have been impossible since no windows around here had "no" posters in them.
PS I assume you meant voting no, ya numpty.
I want to know who this bin lorry driver was, in fact I demand to know, why is he being protected,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-30707365
Out of hospital now.
Out of hospital now.
Jan 5, 2015 -- 3:14PM, acquiesce12 wrote:
I want to know who this bin lorry driver was, in fact I demand to know, why
Harry Clarke is his name, was named 2 weeks ago in The Herald. He speaks here for the first time.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/glasgow-bin-lorry-crash-driver-5107440
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/glasgow-bin-lorry-crash-driver-5107440
Well perhaps it is time for me to end my conspiracy theories. I really did convince myself it was a terrorist attack.
Driver, and 2 co passengers identities protected indefinitely.
Is this normal?
....any information about the co passengers?
Is this normal?
....any information about the co passengers?
Not sure whether it's normal or not, but it seems to be untrue doesn't it
Driver made a statement today. He can't remember a thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-33609329
Fatal Accident Inquiry now started...
When the lorry stopped, the witness said he and Mr Toal got out and saw Mr Clarke was unconscious and "groaning".
He said he spoke to Mr Clarke as he was being treated after the crash and the driver asked him what had happened.
The court was shown pictures from the lorry with unopened bottles of beer in the cab.
Mr Telford said he did not know anything about them as there was no drinking in the vehicle and he did not drink at all.
He said that taking alcohol on to the lorry would be against council policy and he did not know how it got there.
The court will hear from the other bin lorry crewman, Mr Toal on Thursday.
Earlier, the FAI was told that there was no mechanical fault with the lorry before the crash.
Fatal Accident Inquiry now started...
When the lorry stopped, the witness said he and Mr Toal got out and saw Mr Clarke was unconscious and "groaning".
He said he spoke to Mr Clarke as he was being treated after the crash and the driver asked him what had happened.
The court was shown pictures from the lorry with unopened bottles of beer in the cab.
Mr Telford said he did not know anything about them as there was no drinking in the vehicle and he did not drink at all.
He said that taking alcohol on to the lorry would be against council policy and he did not know how it got there.
The court will hear from the other bin lorry crewman, Mr Toal on Thursday.
Earlier, the FAI was told that there was no mechanical fault with the lorry before the crash.
Was revealed in court today that the driver had passed out at the wheel 4 years ago when employed as a bus driver.
Was whilst on his run and an inspector called for an ambulance but he refused to go to hospital.
He took a bus, as a passenger, back to his depot where he seemingly passed out again.
Looks like the blame lies at his feet.
He took a bus, as a passenger, back to his depot where he seemingly passed out again.
Looks like the blame lies at his feet.
^^^ more news release about this today
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-33702639
Glasgow bin lorry crash driver 'lied' over blackout
Glasgow bin lorry crash driver 'lied' over blackout
15 minutes ago
From the section Glasgow & West Scotland
The bin lorry crashed into the Millennium Hotel after careering through the city centre
The inquiry into the Glasgow bin lorry crash which killed six people has heard the driver "lied" on a DVLA form over a previous blackout.
Glasgow Sheriff Court has heard that 58-year-old Harry Clarke passed out at the wheel of a bus on 7 April 2010.
It has now heard a DVLA assessment form from 2011 noted he had no history of blackouts within the last five years.
One of Mr Clarke's managers agreed that if he did pass out in 2010 then the DVLA statement was a lie.
The court previously heard that Mr Clarke was unconscious at the wheel as the Glasgow City Council bin lorry went out of control on Queen Street on 22 December 2014, killing six pedestrians and injuring 15 others.
Medical assessment
The fatal accident inquiry (FAI) has also heard from First Bus inspector John Stewart who told the court that Mr Clarke had blacked out while unwell at a bus stop in 2010.
On Wednesday, the sixth day of the FAI, which is being overseen by Sheriff John Beckett QC, heard evidence from Douglas Gellan, an area manager with Glasgow City Council's land and environmental services department.
He was questioned by Dorothy Bain QC, who is acting for the bereaved Morton family.
Mr Gellan agreed that a medical assessment was important in the recruitment of a bin lorry driver as anyone unfit would be a risk to the public.
Douglas Gellan agreed that Mr Clarke may have lied on a DVLA assessment
The witness confirmed that medical assessment was outsourced to private firms and he agreed with Ms Bain that an employee found to have lied in medical questionnaires would face "serious disciplinary consequences".
The inquiry was shown a Bupa medical questionnaire filled in Mr Clarke in December 2010, in which he claimed to have been off work for seven days of sickness in the previous two years.
The hearing was then shown an attendance record from his employment with First Bus when he was a driver in 2010, that detailed a three-and-a-half week period of sickness in April that year. It also showed a one-week period of sickness in March of the same year.
During the inquiry it was heard that before working as a bin lorry driver with Glasgow City Council, Mr Clarke was taken on as a driver taking special needs children to school and then a gritter.
Sickness declaration
The inquiry was also shown a HMRC sick pay declaration from Mr Clarke where it says he had last worked on 7 April 2010 and the reason for his sickness was "Vosovagal", which Ms Bain explained meant "faint".
Mr Gellan said he would have wanted to know about this.
He also said that if forms had been misleadingly filled in, the council would investigate but it would rely on individuals to tell the truth in the first place.
The inquiry heard that Mr Clarke had to renew his HGV licence every five years after turning 45.
He had a DVLA assessment with a Doctor Willox on 6 December 2011.
Ms Bain produced the assessment form from that day which claimed Mr Clarke had no history of blackouts within last five years.
The QC noted that as it stands, it is a "hypothetical assertion" that Mr Clarke had in fact "blacked out" in 2010. This was based on the report of bus inspector Mr Stewart.
Ms Bain asked Mr Gellan that if we accepted that Mr Clarke had blacked out in 2010, was his statement on the DVLA form a lie?
Mr Gellan agreed that it was a lie.
'Unfit for duty'
Ms Bain said police had later asked Dr Wilcox what she would have said if she had been told about the alleged 2010 blackout.
The QC said Dr Willox told police she would have disclosed the alleged 2010 incident to the DVLA and council, asked for Mr Clarke's medical records and declared him "temporarily unfit for duty".
Ms Bain then asked Mr Gellan if he knew if Mr Clarke had been investigated in 1994 for becoming dizzy behind the wheel of an HGV. The witness replied: "No."
She then asked him if he knew anything about another incident concerning Mr Clarke in 2003. The witness said he did not.
The bin lorry crashed outside Queen Street Station in George Square
The court was then shown a letter to a doctor at People Asset Management - a firm contracted by Glasgow City Council to carry out medical assessments.
The letter notes that Mr Clarke underwent "extensive investigation" at hospital, including brain scans, after the bin lorry crash.
It states that the most likely diagnosis for Mr Clarke was neurocardiogenic syncope (also known as vasovagal syncope) and notes there was "no specific treatment".
The court heard that the letter noted Mr Clarke had "accepted that he would not return to work as a lorry driver".
'Still here today'
Ms Bain asked Mr Gellan if this condition had been diagnosed in 2010, would the council have employed Mr Clarke as a driver? The witness replied: "No."
The QC then asked the witness if the people killed in the bin lorry crash "would still be here today" if that had been the case? Mr Gellan replied: "Yes."
Ms Bain concluded her cross-examination by stating: "If he'd (Mr Clarke) told the truth, in forms in 2010 and 2011, we wouldn't be here today."
The inquiry is examining the lorry, its route and driver Harry Clarke's health.
Erin McQuade, 18, her grandparents Jack Sweeney, 68, and his 69-year-old wife Lorraine, all from Dumbarton, died in the incident in the city's Queen Street and George Square.
Stephenie Tait, 29, and Jacqueline Morton, 51, both from Glasgow, and Gillian Ewing, 52, from Edinburgh, were also killed when the truck mounted the pavement before crashing into the side of the Millennium Hotel.
A further 15 people were injured.
The Crown Office has already concluded that there will be no criminal prosecution over the crash, with senior lawyers deeming it a "tragic accident".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-33702639
Glasgow bin lorry crash driver 'lied' over blackout
Glasgow bin lorry crash driver 'lied' over blackout
15 minutes ago
From the section Glasgow & West Scotland
The bin lorry crashed into the Millennium Hotel after careering through the city centre
The inquiry into the Glasgow bin lorry crash which killed six people has heard the driver "lied" on a DVLA form over a previous blackout.
Glasgow Sheriff Court has heard that 58-year-old Harry Clarke passed out at the wheel of a bus on 7 April 2010.
It has now heard a DVLA assessment form from 2011 noted he had no history of blackouts within the last five years.
One of Mr Clarke's managers agreed that if he did pass out in 2010 then the DVLA statement was a lie.
The court previously heard that Mr Clarke was unconscious at the wheel as the Glasgow City Council bin lorry went out of control on Queen Street on 22 December 2014, killing six pedestrians and injuring 15 others.
Medical assessment
The fatal accident inquiry (FAI) has also heard from First Bus inspector John Stewart who told the court that Mr Clarke had blacked out while unwell at a bus stop in 2010.
On Wednesday, the sixth day of the FAI, which is being overseen by Sheriff John Beckett QC, heard evidence from Douglas Gellan, an area manager with Glasgow City Council's land and environmental services department.
He was questioned by Dorothy Bain QC, who is acting for the bereaved Morton family.
Mr Gellan agreed that a medical assessment was important in the recruitment of a bin lorry driver as anyone unfit would be a risk to the public.
Douglas Gellan agreed that Mr Clarke may have lied on a DVLA assessment
The witness confirmed that medical assessment was outsourced to private firms and he agreed with Ms Bain that an employee found to have lied in medical questionnaires would face "serious disciplinary consequences".
The inquiry was shown a Bupa medical questionnaire filled in Mr Clarke in December 2010, in which he claimed to have been off work for seven days of sickness in the previous two years.
The hearing was then shown an attendance record from his employment with First Bus when he was a driver in 2010, that detailed a three-and-a-half week period of sickness in April that year. It also showed a one-week period of sickness in March of the same year.
During the inquiry it was heard that before working as a bin lorry driver with Glasgow City Council, Mr Clarke was taken on as a driver taking special needs children to school and then a gritter.
Sickness declaration
The inquiry was also shown a HMRC sick pay declaration from Mr Clarke where it says he had last worked on 7 April 2010 and the reason for his sickness was "Vosovagal", which Ms Bain explained meant "faint".
Mr Gellan said he would have wanted to know about this.
He also said that if forms had been misleadingly filled in, the council would investigate but it would rely on individuals to tell the truth in the first place.
The inquiry heard that Mr Clarke had to renew his HGV licence every five years after turning 45.
He had a DVLA assessment with a Doctor Willox on 6 December 2011.
Ms Bain produced the assessment form from that day which claimed Mr Clarke had no history of blackouts within last five years.
The QC noted that as it stands, it is a "hypothetical assertion" that Mr Clarke had in fact "blacked out" in 2010. This was based on the report of bus inspector Mr Stewart.
Ms Bain asked Mr Gellan that if we accepted that Mr Clarke had blacked out in 2010, was his statement on the DVLA form a lie?
Mr Gellan agreed that it was a lie.
'Unfit for duty'
Ms Bain said police had later asked Dr Wilcox what she would have said if she had been told about the alleged 2010 blackout.
The QC said Dr Willox told police she would have disclosed the alleged 2010 incident to the DVLA and council, asked for Mr Clarke's medical records and declared him "temporarily unfit for duty".
Ms Bain then asked Mr Gellan if he knew if Mr Clarke had been investigated in 1994 for becoming dizzy behind the wheel of an HGV. The witness replied: "No."
She then asked him if he knew anything about another incident concerning Mr Clarke in 2003. The witness said he did not.
The bin lorry crashed outside Queen Street Station in George Square
The court was then shown a letter to a doctor at People Asset Management - a firm contracted by Glasgow City Council to carry out medical assessments.
The letter notes that Mr Clarke underwent "extensive investigation" at hospital, including brain scans, after the bin lorry crash.
It states that the most likely diagnosis for Mr Clarke was neurocardiogenic syncope (also known as vasovagal syncope) and notes there was "no specific treatment".
The court heard that the letter noted Mr Clarke had "accepted that he would not return to work as a lorry driver".
'Still here today'
Ms Bain asked Mr Gellan if this condition had been diagnosed in 2010, would the council have employed Mr Clarke as a driver? The witness replied: "No."
The QC then asked the witness if the people killed in the bin lorry crash "would still be here today" if that had been the case? Mr Gellan replied: "Yes."
Ms Bain concluded her cross-examination by stating: "If he'd (Mr Clarke) told the truth, in forms in 2010 and 2011, we wouldn't be here today."
The inquiry is examining the lorry, its route and driver Harry Clarke's health.
Erin McQuade, 18, her grandparents Jack Sweeney, 68, and his 69-year-old wife Lorraine, all from Dumbarton, died in the incident in the city's Queen Street and George Square.
Stephenie Tait, 29, and Jacqueline Morton, 51, both from Glasgow, and Gillian Ewing, 52, from Edinburgh, were also killed when the truck mounted the pavement before crashing into the side of the Millennium Hotel.
A further 15 people were injured.
The Crown Office has already concluded that there will be no criminal prosecution over the crash, with senior lawyers deeming it a "tragic accident".
It would appear that the driver has withheld crucial evidence over his health which, if he had made it known, would have seen him declared unfit to drive.
Surely a charge of manslaughter would be apt.
Surely a charge of manslaughter would be apt.
Has to be a charge or their would no point in having health checks at all.
Found it very strange at the time how the local authorities rushed to clear the driver without any proper enquiries
In 1989 he had a blackout.
In 1994 he reported being dizzy at the wheel of a vehicle.
In 2003, he was told not to drive because of a similar difficulty.
seems very culpable indeed
In 1989 he had a blackout.
In 1994 he reported being dizzy at the wheel of a vehicle.
In 2003, he was told not to drive because of a similar difficulty.
seems very culpable indeed
During Mr Conway's cross-examination, it later emerged that there were no references on Mr Clarke's employment record with Glasgow City council.
This led to the lawyer stating to Mr Gellan: "Someone has blundered, either at First Bus, or at Glasgow City Council carrying out a grossly incompetent employment process."
This led to the lawyer stating to Mr Gellan: "Someone has blundered, either at First Bus, or at Glasgow City Council carrying out a grossly incompetent employment process."
some very worried people at the council do doubt - hope for their sake they've got good insurance
The Glasgow bin lorry inquiry into the deaths of six people has heard the driver Harry Clarke suffered episodes of dizziness and fainting for decades.
Mr Clarke, 58, was unconscious when the bin lorry veered out of control and hit pedestrians on 22 December 2014.
The inquiry has now heard he reported bouts of dizziness in 1976, fainted at work while a lorry driver in 1989 and suffered dizziness for months in 1994.
His own GP was unaware he allegedly fainted at the wheel of a bus in 2010.
The Crown Office has already concluded that there will be no criminal prosecution over the crash, with senior lawyers deeming it a "tragic accident".
In a statement on Friday, the prosecution service said Mr Clarke was unconscious when the bin lorry veered out of control in Glasgow city centre "and therefore not in control of his actions".
The Crown Office statement said Mr Clarke did not "have the necessary criminal state of mind required for a criminal prosecution".
It also said that all the relevant evidence was known to the Crown counsel at the time the decision to take no proceedings was made.
The eighth day of the Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI), which is being overseen by Sheriff John Beckett QC at Glasgow Sheriff Court, has been hearing more details of Mr Clarke's medical history.
Not disclosed
The inquiry has previously heard that he allegedly suffered a blackout at the wheel of a First Bus vehicle on 7 April 2010 and that this information was not disclosed by Mr Clarke when he joined Glasgow City Council in 2011.
During cross-examination of Glasgow City Council human resources manager Geraldine Ham, it emerged that Mr Clarke's own GP was unaware that he allegedly passed out at the wheel of a bus.
Dorothy Bain QC, who is representing the bereaved Morton family, produced records of Mr Clarke's appointment with Dr Gerard McKaig at Baillieston Health Centre.
These stated that Mr Clarke told his GP he had lost consciousness at the First Bus depot canteen. They make no mention of fainting at the wheel of a bus.
Bin lorry crash, Glasgow
Six people were killed and 15 others injured when the council bin lorry crashed in the centre of Glasgow
Mr Clarke is reported as saying that he was in a hot environment in the canteen and that he felt slightly disorientated for a short period and was then fine. There were no warning signs.
The medical notes said that paramedics attended and Mr Clarke was advised the incident was "vasovagal" - a heart-related condition that can cause fainting.
Ms Bain also brought forward medical information which stated that Mr Clarke reported episodes of dizziness in 1976.
His records show a vasovagal (fainting) attack in 1989 at work, when he was employed by Tennent Caledonian Breweries as a lorry driver.
Recurring dizziness
In 1987, when he was working as a bus driver, he sought a medical note because of a nervous condition.
In 1994 he reported recurring dizziness over an 18-month period to his GP.
The FAI heard that he was told not to drive in 2003 as he was complaining of dizziness. It is understood that he was working as an oil tanker driver at this time.
The medical notes also show that he was off work with stress in November 2009.
In total, he made 26 visits to his GP between 1976 and 2009.
Ms Ham told the inquiry that the council was unaware of any of this medical history.
Ms Bain put it to Ms Ham: "On analysis, the bond of trust between the council and Mr Clarke is non-existent. He should never have been employed by council."
Ms Ham agrees that Mr Clarke would never have been employed by the council if he had told the truth about his medical history on his application form and medical declarations.
The witness also agreed with Ms Bain's assertion that six people would not have died and no-one would be at the inquiry if Mr Clarke had told the truth.
This is like a Rotherham cover up, so far;
A driver has lied about his health
An employer who has failed its public liability risks
A GP who could not put 2 and 2 together.
At the moment the Council should have its operating license removed ASAP, are their other drivers who have not been fully vetted and who are out there driving today ?
Mr Clarke, 58, was unconscious when the bin lorry veered out of control and hit pedestrians on 22 December 2014.
The inquiry has now heard he reported bouts of dizziness in 1976, fainted at work while a lorry driver in 1989 and suffered dizziness for months in 1994.
His own GP was unaware he allegedly fainted at the wheel of a bus in 2010.
The Crown Office has already concluded that there will be no criminal prosecution over the crash, with senior lawyers deeming it a "tragic accident".
In a statement on Friday, the prosecution service said Mr Clarke was unconscious when the bin lorry veered out of control in Glasgow city centre "and therefore not in control of his actions".
The Crown Office statement said Mr Clarke did not "have the necessary criminal state of mind required for a criminal prosecution".
It also said that all the relevant evidence was known to the Crown counsel at the time the decision to take no proceedings was made.
The eighth day of the Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI), which is being overseen by Sheriff John Beckett QC at Glasgow Sheriff Court, has been hearing more details of Mr Clarke's medical history.
Not disclosed
The inquiry has previously heard that he allegedly suffered a blackout at the wheel of a First Bus vehicle on 7 April 2010 and that this information was not disclosed by Mr Clarke when he joined Glasgow City Council in 2011.
During cross-examination of Glasgow City Council human resources manager Geraldine Ham, it emerged that Mr Clarke's own GP was unaware that he allegedly passed out at the wheel of a bus.
Dorothy Bain QC, who is representing the bereaved Morton family, produced records of Mr Clarke's appointment with Dr Gerard McKaig at Baillieston Health Centre.
These stated that Mr Clarke told his GP he had lost consciousness at the First Bus depot canteen. They make no mention of fainting at the wheel of a bus.
Bin lorry crash, Glasgow
Six people were killed and 15 others injured when the council bin lorry crashed in the centre of Glasgow
Mr Clarke is reported as saying that he was in a hot environment in the canteen and that he felt slightly disorientated for a short period and was then fine. There were no warning signs.
The medical notes said that paramedics attended and Mr Clarke was advised the incident was "vasovagal" - a heart-related condition that can cause fainting.
Ms Bain also brought forward medical information which stated that Mr Clarke reported episodes of dizziness in 1976.
His records show a vasovagal (fainting) attack in 1989 at work, when he was employed by Tennent Caledonian Breweries as a lorry driver.
Recurring dizziness
In 1987, when he was working as a bus driver, he sought a medical note because of a nervous condition.
In 1994 he reported recurring dizziness over an 18-month period to his GP.
The FAI heard that he was told not to drive in 2003 as he was complaining of dizziness. It is understood that he was working as an oil tanker driver at this time.
The medical notes also show that he was off work with stress in November 2009.
In total, he made 26 visits to his GP between 1976 and 2009.
Ms Ham told the inquiry that the council was unaware of any of this medical history.
Ms Bain put it to Ms Ham: "On analysis, the bond of trust between the council and Mr Clarke is non-existent. He should never have been employed by council."
Ms Ham agrees that Mr Clarke would never have been employed by the council if he had told the truth about his medical history on his application form and medical declarations.
The witness also agreed with Ms Bain's assertion that six people would not have died and no-one would be at the inquiry if Mr Clarke had told the truth.
This is like a Rotherham cover up, so far;
A driver has lied about his health
An employer who has failed its public liability risks
A GP who could not put 2 and 2 together.
At the moment the Council should have its operating license removed ASAP, are their other drivers who have not been fully vetted and who are out there driving today ?
It will be the usual lessons will be learned
No resignations
and "Over the moon" Sharon Shoesmith style payoffs.
No culpability whatsoever
No resignations
and "Over the moon" Sharon Shoesmith style payoffs.
No culpability whatsoever
My council has fcked up over a 15 year period, letting coal companies run riot without any oversight, taxpayer liable for a £200m bailout, countryside a death trap. Chief Exec continues to pick up more money every month than the Prime Ministers of Spain and Portugal combined. Plenty of examples throughout the UK I'm sure.
His references have disappeared although we have been assured they were satisfactory.
Be loads here covering their backs, so the whole truth won't come out.
Be loads here covering their backs, so the whole truth won't come out.
Relatives of one of the Glasgow bin lorry crash victims have called for the driver involved to be prosecuted.
A fatal accident inquiry into the tragedy has heard claims that driver Harry Clarke, 58, lied to doctors about his medical history.
The Crown Office said before the inquiry began that no criminal charges would be brought.
In a statement released through their lawyer, the family of victim Jacqueline Morton criticised that decision.
The Crown explained its position in February, saying at the time that there was "no evidence to suggest that the driver's conduct at the time amounted to a breach of the criminal law."
A spokesman for the Crown Office confirmed: "This still remains the case and all the relevant evidence regarding these points was known to Crown Counsel at the time the decision to take no proceedings was made."
A legal source has told BBC Scotland the law was "crystal clear" in that the Crown was now barred from prosecuting Mr Clarke as it had given him a "no proceedings" letter.
He said it was his opinion that saying the driver would not be prosecuted was "perfectly sensible".
Mr Clarke's lawyer would otherwise have advised him to refuse to answer all questions put to him so as not to say anything which might be used against him at a later criminal trial, he said.
This was likely to have prevented the inquiry achieving its aim of discovering as fully as possible what went wrong, he added.
But Mrs Morton's family said they had thought all along that Mr Clarke should face prosecution, and would be making a submission on the matter to Sheriff John Beckett, who is hearing the inquiry at Glasgow Sheriff Court.
They added: "While the evidential position will be determined by Sheriff Beckett, we wish to state that, based on the information given to the families by the Crown to justify their decision not to prosecute at the time, we do not accept that the Crown were in possession of all relevant information when the decision not to prosecute Mr Clarke was announced.
"Submissions to this effect will be made and developed on their behalf in the closing stages of the inquiry.
"We consider that the statement as to the applicable law apparently made by the Crown is simply incorrect. There is no basis in law for the suggestion that a prosecution for causing death by dangerous or careless driving would require to prove that it was foreseeable that the driver would suffer a loss of consciousness on the day of the collision."
The family statement went on to say that the Crown's decision "makes us consider that their focus in the inquiry is on justifying their own decision not to prosecute rather than a robust and thorough investigation of the circumstances that led to this tragedy".
The inquiry has heard Mr Clarke, 58, previously fainted while working as a bus driver but failed to disclose the incident when he joined the council.
It has also heard a claim Mr Clarke "lied through his teeth" to doctors about his medical history.
Solicitor General Lesley Thomson, who is acting on behalf of the Crown, is expected to make a statement on whether Mr Clarke could still be charged with offences not directly relating to the crash, such as failing to disclose information about his medical history when renewing his HGV licence.
She had been asked by Sheriff Beckett last week to give a categorical statement on the issue before Mr Clarke begins giving evidence to the inquiry.
Glasgow City Council confirmed last week that it had suspended Mr Clarke on a precautionary basis pending a full disciplinary investigation into his conduct before and at the point where he commenced employment with the council.
Mrs Morton, 51, from Glasgow, was one of six people who died when the bin lorry went out of control in the city centre on 22 December of last year.
The others were Erin McQuade, 18, her grandparents Jack Sweeney, 68, and his 69-year-old wife Lorraine, all from Dumbarton, Stephenie Tait, 29, from Glasgow, and Gillian Ewing, 52, from Edinburgh.
A further 15 people were injured.
A fatal accident inquiry into the tragedy has heard claims that driver Harry Clarke, 58, lied to doctors about his medical history.
The Crown Office said before the inquiry began that no criminal charges would be brought.
In a statement released through their lawyer, the family of victim Jacqueline Morton criticised that decision.
The Crown explained its position in February, saying at the time that there was "no evidence to suggest that the driver's conduct at the time amounted to a breach of the criminal law."
A spokesman for the Crown Office confirmed: "This still remains the case and all the relevant evidence regarding these points was known to Crown Counsel at the time the decision to take no proceedings was made."
A legal source has told BBC Scotland the law was "crystal clear" in that the Crown was now barred from prosecuting Mr Clarke as it had given him a "no proceedings" letter.
He said it was his opinion that saying the driver would not be prosecuted was "perfectly sensible".
Mr Clarke's lawyer would otherwise have advised him to refuse to answer all questions put to him so as not to say anything which might be used against him at a later criminal trial, he said.
This was likely to have prevented the inquiry achieving its aim of discovering as fully as possible what went wrong, he added.
But Mrs Morton's family said they had thought all along that Mr Clarke should face prosecution, and would be making a submission on the matter to Sheriff John Beckett, who is hearing the inquiry at Glasgow Sheriff Court.
They added: "While the evidential position will be determined by Sheriff Beckett, we wish to state that, based on the information given to the families by the Crown to justify their decision not to prosecute at the time, we do not accept that the Crown were in possession of all relevant information when the decision not to prosecute Mr Clarke was announced.
"Submissions to this effect will be made and developed on their behalf in the closing stages of the inquiry.
"We consider that the statement as to the applicable law apparently made by the Crown is simply incorrect. There is no basis in law for the suggestion that a prosecution for causing death by dangerous or careless driving would require to prove that it was foreseeable that the driver would suffer a loss of consciousness on the day of the collision."
The family statement went on to say that the Crown's decision "makes us consider that their focus in the inquiry is on justifying their own decision not to prosecute rather than a robust and thorough investigation of the circumstances that led to this tragedy".
The inquiry has heard Mr Clarke, 58, previously fainted while working as a bus driver but failed to disclose the incident when he joined the council.
It has also heard a claim Mr Clarke "lied through his teeth" to doctors about his medical history.
Solicitor General Lesley Thomson, who is acting on behalf of the Crown, is expected to make a statement on whether Mr Clarke could still be charged with offences not directly relating to the crash, such as failing to disclose information about his medical history when renewing his HGV licence.
She had been asked by Sheriff Beckett last week to give a categorical statement on the issue before Mr Clarke begins giving evidence to the inquiry.
Glasgow City Council confirmed last week that it had suspended Mr Clarke on a precautionary basis pending a full disciplinary investigation into his conduct before and at the point where he commenced employment with the council.
Mrs Morton, 51, from Glasgow, was one of six people who died when the bin lorry went out of control in the city centre on 22 December of last year.
The others were Erin McQuade, 18, her grandparents Jack Sweeney, 68, and his 69-year-old wife Lorraine, all from Dumbarton, Stephenie Tait, 29, from Glasgow, and Gillian Ewing, 52, from Edinburgh.
A further 15 people were injured.
would think you'd be in terrible trouble if you didn't report a existing medical condition to the DVLA that clearly could affect your driving, carried on driving your car and had a serious accident let alone doing it professionally driving an HGV
Lock him up....pour encourages les autres (5 years)
he won't get away with this, blatantly selfish attitude to
with hold information like that from the dvla.
to add insult to injury now playing it dumb
with hold information like that from the dvla.
to add insult to injury now playing it dumb
I suppose that a lot depends upon the actual truth. Many of the questions being asked would impact upon another case and are being avoided, as is the right of the defendant. Especially as in this case those replies might cause prejudice.
Nothing is ever as cut and dried as it seems. Hear the evidence first. Then assess...calmly!
Nothing is ever as cut and dried as it seems. Hear the evidence first. Then assess...calmly!
February 2015 in a Daily Record interview
Harry Clarke thinks about the victims every day and wants to reach out to the families of the six people who died
Today
No comment
Harry Clarke thinks about the victims every day and wants to reach out to the families of the six people who died
Today
No comment
naydam • August 21, 2015 12:05 PM BST
I suppose that a lot depends upon the actual truth. Many of the questions being asked would impact upon another case and are being avoided, as is the right of the defendant. Especially as in this case those replies might cause prejudice.
Nothing is ever as cut and dried as it seems. Hear the evidence first. Then assess...calmly!
We have heard the evidence and HC was the last witness. To refuse to answer any questions on the basis it could incriminate him kinda tells you that the evidence was correct.
The guy will rightly be pilloried for his lack of compassion towards the families of those who he killed. talk of a private prosecution but I doubt that will happen given the laws of this country.
Been three recent cases in Glasgow alone of people with medical conditions that would stop them driving failing to declare these conditions and then going on to kill people.
Something wrong with our laws if they cannot be prosecuted. No different to drink driving imo.
I suppose that a lot depends upon the actual truth. Many of the questions being asked would impact upon another case and are being avoided, as is the right of the defendant. Especially as in this case those replies might cause prejudice.
Nothing is ever as cut and dried as it seems. Hear the evidence first. Then assess...calmly!
We have heard the evidence and HC was the last witness. To refuse to answer any questions on the basis it could incriminate him kinda tells you that the evidence was correct.
The guy will rightly be pilloried for his lack of compassion towards the families of those who he killed. talk of a private prosecution but I doubt that will happen given the laws of this country.
Been three recent cases in Glasgow alone of people with medical conditions that would stop them driving failing to declare these conditions and then going on to kill people.
Something wrong with our laws if they cannot be prosecuted. No different to drink driving imo.
I suppose I should have said 'Hear ALL the evidence first'. Also, I did NOT say that his response might incriminate him. I said that it might cause prejudgement in an associated case. This could harm his defence.
Your example of three 'similar' cases in Glasgow is further evidence of such prejudice, should it be needed. Those were, in fact, different cases and different people.
What do I think?...I think we should ALL face MUCH tighter scrutiny before being allowed the huge responsibility of driving. With a proper, and strictly controlled regime, of ensuring that those high standards are maintained.
Your example of three 'similar' cases in Glasgow is further evidence of such prejudice, should it be needed. Those were, in fact, different cases and different people.
What do I think?...I think we should ALL face MUCH tighter scrutiny before being allowed the huge responsibility of driving. With a proper, and strictly controlled regime, of ensuring that those high standards are maintained.
Your example of three 'similar' cases in Glasgow is further evidence of such prejudice, should it be needed. Those were, in fact, different cases and different people
Prejudice? I was merely pointing out that there have been three cases highlighted in the press.
How is that prejudice.
It tells us that in this respect the law is wrong.
If someone drinks and drives they get prosecuted whether they cause the death of someone or not.
So why shouldn't someone who drives despite having a medical condition that says they shouldn't not get charged.
Prejudice? I was merely pointing out that there have been three cases highlighted in the press.
How is that prejudice.
It tells us that in this respect the law is wrong.
If someone drinks and drives they get prosecuted whether they cause the death of someone or not.
So why shouldn't someone who drives despite having a medical condition that says they shouldn't not get charged.
The problem is that it should NOT be up to the individual to report himself. That should have been automatic the moment he was first diagnosed. Regardless of his job.
Osamiouvsly not - obviously.
Who's keyboard is this? Half the ky r msg
Who's keyboard is this? Half the ky r msg
Just face it, if he got done by death by careless or dangerous driving, he would've got fe.ck all in jail anyway; because driving is the be all and end all for some people. No matter how many people you mow down.
Careless or dangerous, you taking the piss ?
You lie about your medical health then it is at least manslaughter or there would be no point on having a medical/health check. If justice is not served on this case then employers will have a field day and employ who they like.
You lie about your medical health then it is at least manslaughter or there would be no point on having a medical/health check. If justice is not served on this case then employers will have a field day and employ who they like.
Great so he didn't mean to kill anyone, not his fault he was unconscious 
Totally 100% liable for those deaths, he was medically unsafe to drive, he took a chance it cost several lives, why he has not been charged with manslaughter is beyond me.
Totally 100% liable for those deaths, he was medically unsafe to drive, he took a chance it cost several lives, why he has not been charged with manslaughter is beyond me.
Because there is no such offence of manslaughter in Scotland.
Though Culpable Homicide amounts to the say thing I would have thought
It's similar. The Crown have clearly **** up here but culpable homicide would be a lot harder for them to prove than death by dangerous driving.
Your possibly right, thing is is it dangerous driving if the bloke is unconscious, you surely can only be driving dangerously if you are clear in your mind your being reckless, to be driving when your medically to ill to drive not sure if that would come under CH
A QC in todays papers saying the PFs dept were too quick to say no charges would be brought.
The dailies have slaughtered the driver with the headlines highlighting his refusal to apologise.
Might be safer locked up as he's sure to be targeted after his refusal to answer 300+ questions.
The dailies have slaughtered the driver with the headlines highlighting his refusal to apologise.
Might be safer locked up as he's sure to be targeted after his refusal to answer 300+ questions.
He had no choice not to answer, given that there will be a pending case and he was not under prosecution in this case.
Of course ha had a choice but chose not to answer. Not certain that a private prosecution will be allowed given the rarity of them.
His lawyer says it is unfair to blame him for the crash. Beggars belief.
Someone is legally bound to defend the c unt, don't blame them blame the system, he deserves to be hung by his bollox for the pain he's caused to the families, phucking dopey c unt was an accident waiting to happen, fair play for scrounging the dole LIKE A TRUE JOCK and doing an honest days work on one hand but driving phucking heavy piece of machinery when you suffer from blackout WAFSDC b urn in HELL
I find the whole thing very distressing, they are virtually praising the bin driver.
A car can be more dangerous than holding a gun, a lorry is on a different level.
They are making a mockery of the whole medical system.
A car can be more dangerous than holding a gun, a lorry is on a different level.
They are making a mockery of the whole medical system.
In these islands you can do pretty much whatever you like at the wheel of a motor vehicle and get away with it - just make sure your're taxed and insured.
Despite all that has come out and the fact he had his licence withdrawn by the DVLA, this guy thought he'd take his car out for a little spin. To think I actually felt a bit sorry for him when the events first unfolded.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34438129
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34438129
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539