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17 Dec 14
19:08
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Date Joined:
14 Feb 11
Something I wrote earlier, when a mate posted about the white working class being left behind
I think this is where capitalism fundamentally comes unglued. We like to think we live in a land and indeed world of opportunity, where the wealthy are so because of their skills and efforts, and the poor are poor because, well, they deserve to be. How else can we justify owning giant TVs more than one car, and other luxuries when there are homeless people.
Never mind that statistics show bugger all social mobility, that being able to pass your wealth on to your kids will obviously give them an unfair advantage, we just close our eyes and start humming.
Such are the obvious disadvantages of some in ethnic minorities - discrimination, language issues, poverty as a starting point, we can't really ignore that. So...OK...we owe them, so let's start some initiatives, and have equal opportunities rules to stop people giving jobs to mate, family members, or based on someone's ethnicity or gender (rules which seem curiously absent for Indian restaurants).
Great, all is fine. The remaining white poor are clearly there through their own fecklessness. We'll even give them a name, chavs, to remind them of that. If you're going to spend your money on stupid tattoos, drink, or drugs that will ultimately kill you, it's YOUR fault, unless of course you're a top pop star in which case it's an addiction and a tragedy.
The awkward truth is that everyone who needs help...needs help, regardless of ethnicity, gender, religion, whatever. That help need not directly be money, in fact money often makes things worse. People slag off food banks, but you can't buy a bottle of cider with a potato.
When we live with a mindset in which the most celebrated of the political FAR-LEFT, Tony Benn, thinks it's OK to have a massive fortune, and leave the lot, including the tax he should have paid on it, to his children, ensuring they will remain with a huge advantage over the masses of deprived people he could have helped, something is very wrong indeed.
I think this is where capitalism fundamentally comes unglued. We like to think we live in a land and indeed world of opportunity, where the wealthy are so because of their skills and efforts, and the poor are poor because, well, they deserve to be. How else can we justify owning giant TVs more than one car, and other luxuries when there are homeless people.
Never mind that statistics show bugger all social mobility, that being able to pass your wealth on to your kids will obviously give them an unfair advantage, we just close our eyes and start humming.
Such are the obvious disadvantages of some in ethnic minorities - discrimination, language issues, poverty as a starting point, we can't really ignore that. So...OK...we owe them, so let's start some initiatives, and have equal opportunities rules to stop people giving jobs to mate, family members, or based on someone's ethnicity or gender (rules which seem curiously absent for Indian restaurants).
Great, all is fine. The remaining white poor are clearly there through their own fecklessness. We'll even give them a name, chavs, to remind them of that. If you're going to spend your money on stupid tattoos, drink, or drugs that will ultimately kill you, it's YOUR fault, unless of course you're a top pop star in which case it's an addiction and a tragedy.
The awkward truth is that everyone who needs help...needs help, regardless of ethnicity, gender, religion, whatever. That help need not directly be money, in fact money often makes things worse. People slag off food banks, but you can't buy a bottle of cider with a potato.
When we live with a mindset in which the most celebrated of the political FAR-LEFT, Tony Benn, thinks it's OK to have a massive fortune, and leave the lot, including the tax he should have paid on it, to his children, ensuring they will remain with a huge advantage over the masses of deprived people he could have helped, something is very wrong indeed.
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Its possible that food bank stuff could be sold to buy cider
Abolish income tax and replace it with a huge and ongoing rise in inheritance tax and/or land value tax.
Sounds encouraging. I've clearly identified the correct targets.
Yes, good post by CH (Sparky), but the genes are looking after themselves.
Families have shared genes and are programmed to look after their relatives....survival of the fittest.
Families have shared genes and are programmed to look after their relatives....survival of the fittest.
The leaders of all three major parties are millionaires. So never going to happen unless the working class vote for their own heros again, if they even have them
James Keir Hardie was born on 15 August 1856 in a one-roomed cottage on the western edge of Newhouse, North Lanarkshire, near Holytown, a small town close to Motherwell in Scotland. His mother, Mary Keir, was a domestic servant and his stepfather, David Hardie, was a ship's carpenter
James Connolly was born in an Irish slum in Edinburgh[note 1] in 1868.[4] His parents had emigrated to Scotland from Monaghan and settled in the Cowgate, an Irish ghetto
James Larkin was born on 21 January 1876 the second eldest son of Irish immigrants, James Larkin and Mary Ann McNulty, both natives of County Armagh. The impoverished Larkin family lived in the slums of Liverpool during the early years of his life. From the age of seven, he attended school in the mornings and worked in the afternoons to supplement the family income
The Tolpuddle Martyrs were a group of 19th century Dorset agricultural labourers who were arrested for and convicted of swearing a secret oath as members of the Friendly Society of Agricultural Labourers.
etc etc
James Keir Hardie was born on 15 August 1856 in a one-roomed cottage on the western edge of Newhouse, North Lanarkshire, near Holytown, a small town close to Motherwell in Scotland. His mother, Mary Keir, was a domestic servant and his stepfather, David Hardie, was a ship's carpenter
James Connolly was born in an Irish slum in Edinburgh[note 1] in 1868.[4] His parents had emigrated to Scotland from Monaghan and settled in the Cowgate, an Irish ghetto
James Larkin was born on 21 January 1876 the second eldest son of Irish immigrants, James Larkin and Mary Ann McNulty, both natives of County Armagh. The impoverished Larkin family lived in the slums of Liverpool during the early years of his life. From the age of seven, he attended school in the mornings and worked in the afternoons to supplement the family income
The Tolpuddle Martyrs were a group of 19th century Dorset agricultural labourers who were arrested for and convicted of swearing a secret oath as members of the Friendly Society of Agricultural Labourers.
etc etc
Brendan....we're all millionaires down in London.
Hmmm. 'Survival of the fittest' would generally apply to a system based on meritocracy rather than a 'keep-it-in-the-family' approach.
You employ/use the best person for the job.
You employ/use the best person for the job.
If a genetically related group supports each other then they will each be more successful so the genes are more likely to progress into future generations.
As OP says there is pretty much zero social mobility. The rich are rich because their parents are rich. the poor are poor because their parents are poor.
Meritocracy and genes
Meritocracy and genes
as for the ethnics and their problems. feel free to leave.
But it's so nice here! Immigrants welcomed, racists despised. I'm gonna stay!
A meritocracy would be the most ruthless and evil of systems, in a good society people must have the ability to withdraw from that society and be alone.
My granddad was poor as sh1t growing up. I am pretty well off. Must be loads of people like me whose parents or grand parents didn’t have a pot to p1ss iin growing up but who are themselves well off. Isn’t that social mobility.
A big fk off land value tax would be a good idea imo.
A big fk off land value tax would be a good idea imo.
Immigrants welcomed, racists despised
How do you work that out when most of the immigrants are racists?
How do you work that out when most of the immigrants are racists?
How do people get think like that?
They allow people into the country who are not wanted, then condemn their own for protesting about it.
They allow people into the country who are not wanted, then condemn their own for protesting about it.
Source?
Simply look at the partitioning of India. 1 million dead in the fighting that followed and they've been at each other's throats ever since.
Then take the Arabs hatred of the Jews.
I've also yet to meet an Eastern European who is happy to live amongst certain ethnic groups.
Everywhere you look in the world there's malicious racism.
You need to wake up mate and take you blindfolds off.
Simply look at the partitioning of India. 1 million dead in the fighting that followed and they've been at each other's throats ever since.
Then take the Arabs hatred of the Jews.
I've also yet to meet an Eastern European who is happy to live amongst certain ethnic groups.
Everywhere you look in the world there's malicious racism.
You need to wake up mate and take you blindfolds off.
Stroll on, why do I have to explain these things when they're so obvious?
No wonder the country has being overrun with too many people.
No wonder the country has being overrun with too many people.
Sleeping, blindfolded, mindwashed sheep :-) Do you maybe think you have some issues?
Racist immigrants are no more welcome than racists born here. But they are despised because they are racists, not because they are immigrants. I've never had any bother.
Racist immigrants are no more welcome than racists born here. But they are despised because they are racists, not because they are immigrants. I've never had any bother.
I suppose it'll be ''I've got a mate who's black'' next.
Thinking he's put the world straight.
Well multiculturalism has never worked and it never will. That's not racist that's common sense.
Thinking he's put the world straight.
Well multiculturalism has never worked and it never will. That's not racist that's common sense.
Only an idiot believes that someone who doesnt want any more immigrants here must be a racist.
Probably most people are, there will come a time when the nation state no longer functions and people will withdraw into small areas.
England eg could be divided into those who want immigration and those who don't, separate states with their own border.
To be fair, they could just be stupid.
Yes it's easy to spot the stupid people in a conversation.
They usually end up by calling people names who disagree with them.
Yes it's easy to spot the stupid people in a conversation.
They usually end up by calling people names who disagree with them.
Good post from Clungehungry - enjoyed reading that.
Couldn't be arsed to read the post but I gave 8/10 for the thread title.
When is episode 2 due out: Communism, Tommy Toes and tomatoes?
When is episode 2 due out: Communism, Tommy Toes and tomatoes?
When is episode 2 due out: Communism, Tommy Toes and tomatoes?
Fecking quality.
BTW I was the same with the content. Chit-chat ffs ch.
Fecking quality.
BTW I was the same with the content. Chit-chat ffs ch.
A big fk off land value tax would be a good idea imo
and how does f*** off sound?
and how does f*** off sound?
cap rents.
make it affordable to live with an average job.
or what will happen in 5-10 years is not only the low paid immigrants will leave but also the middle band indigenous population will be drawn to a far more cost effective and higher standard of living on the continent.
if i was you id be practising spanish german french or even one of those eastern european languages.
the system here is going to fall apart if something isnt done.
make it affordable to live with an average job.
or what will happen in 5-10 years is not only the low paid immigrants will leave but also the middle band indigenous population will be drawn to a far more cost effective and higher standard of living on the continent.
if i was you id be practising spanish german french or even one of those eastern european languages.
the system here is going to fall apart if something isnt done.
Burton-Brewers offers the most convincing argument possible for shifting the tax burden from productive workers onto idle farts.
Clunge - so what are you saying cos it's unclear in your opening post.
If you really think there's no 'social mobility' you obviously aren't aware of the painters + decorators/plumbers/builders etc making 30 grand +.
More people travel abroad then ever before. A millionaire living in a pile will own an ipad. So will many a 'working class' fella in an ex council house that he bought for peanuts thanks to Maggie.
If you really think there's no 'social mobility' you obviously aren't aware of the painters + decorators/plumbers/builders etc making 30 grand +.
More people travel abroad then ever before. A millionaire living in a pile will own an ipad. So will many a 'working class' fella in an ex council house that he bought for peanuts thanks to Maggie.
We're into a new age of low wage, insecure jobs, and a transient international workforce. Good for those at the top and the skilled, bad for the unskilled. Not so much an issue for the older workers with their property and pensions not so good for the young.
The wealthy realise that without the advantages they can buy them, their kids may struggle, so their socialist principles go out the window.
The wealthy realise that without the advantages they can buy them, their kids may struggle, so their socialist principles go out the window.
[b]cap rents.
Sounds so easy. But what would be the consequencies of capping rents (rent control) bearing in mind that it's been tried before and didn't work, and the reason we had the 1987 Rent Act was because the private rental sector wasn't working and there were no private rental properties to be had simply because it was uneconomical for private landlords.
Sounds so easy. But what would be the consequencies of capping rents (rent control) bearing in mind that it's been tried before and didn't work, and the reason we had the 1987 Rent Act was because the private rental sector wasn't working and there were no private rental properties to be had simply because it was uneconomical for private landlords.
There's a difference though Injera, between someone moving away from traditional jobs, and being paid more for them. And yes, we are wealthier, more or less across the board, which is great.
There's an abundance of stats here.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/22/social-mobility-data-charts
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/22/social-mobility-data-charts
Some confusion here between rising living standards and social mobility.
I grew up in the 1960s with a standard of living that might see me taken into care now. These days I live in a household with luxuries such as a washing machine, radiators and a telephone, and I could even afford a car, if I'd learnt to drive, unlike my parents. But who doesn't? I still know my place.
I grew up in the 1960s with a standard of living that might see me taken into care now. These days I live in a household with luxuries such as a washing machine, radiators and a telephone, and I could even afford a car, if I'd learnt to drive, unlike my parents. But who doesn't? I still know my place.
One main difference between now and the 1960's is security of employment, a "job for life" was common. Also hours worked. It used to be 40 hours a week Monday to Friday.
People felt more secure and possibly more at ease. Although living conditions were far lower than today, what you never had you didn't miss.
People felt more secure and possibly more at ease. Although living conditions were far lower than today, what you never had you didn't miss.
Clunge - moving away from traditional jobs is surely a way to improve?
Many of us (me included) stay where we are and don't take the plunge.
The people I know who have bettered themselves have changed career.
Many of us (me included) stay where we are and don't take the plunge.
The people I know who have bettered themselves have changed career.
That's something I often think T&C. In the winter we were always cold indoors but it never occurred to you that you should be warmer.
8 rooms in our house and one coal fire which had to be lit each morning.
8 rooms in our house and one coal fire which had to be lit each morning.
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