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Anyone got any theories about German-bred racehorses? The more esoteric, the better...
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in an era when most operations around the world have followed the route of breeding horses for commercial purposes and/or speed, german bloodstock has held true to its ideals by breeding horses to race. their goal always has (and remains) winning the german derby hence the resulting stock being stouter than its international counterparts. it is no surprise to me whatsoever (a few fellow forumites will confirm my view on this) that german stock has risen to prominence in the last 10 or so years. even though italian racing is on the precipice of existence, german breds continue to support that arm of the industry and have farmed italy's end-of-season highlights on a regular basis for many a year now. parklife.
there was a brilliant thread on B&B (by the headmaster) before the May 6 2010 changeover (which was lost because it hadn't been posted on for six months prior to that). pity.
there was a brilliant thread on B&B (by the headmaster) before the May 6 2010 changeover (which was lost because it hadn't been posted on for six months prior to that). pity.
notes:
(1) no stallion is allowed to stand in germany if it has ever raced on drugs
(2) all horses bred in germany which race in germany must be named beginning with the same letter as their dam
(1) no stallion is allowed to stand in germany if it has ever raced on drugs
(2) all horses bred in germany which race in germany must be named beginning with the same letter as their dam
I can vouch for Fishy. 'Twas he who convinced me to put Solon in all my 1996 Ten-to-Follow entries.
(2) all horses bred in germany which race in germany must be named beginning with the same letter as their dam
Genuinely didn't know that. Surprised the Aga Khan hasn't moved his entire operation there!
Genuinely didn't know that. Surprised the Aga Khan hasn't moved his entire operation there!
Didn't know that either...think Wildenstein went through a phase naming horses like that.
I did look up Solon but only to make sure I got the right year. Scored me as many points as you got for Var...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MgdTrKh1a4
1940 Schwarzgold the legend....Nazi officers in the paddock...
Simply Great, Sagace, Slip Anchor etc.
1940 Schwarzgold the legend....Nazi officers in the paddock...
Simply Great, Sagace, Slip Anchor etc.
brilliant that you pointed out slip anchor - lord howard de walden was very much a fan of german stock (and once had horses in training with henry cecil you know)
David - you heard that tale he told about knocking down Hitler in his car?
Slip Anchor was unique in that both his sire(Shirley Heights) and his Grandsire(Mill reef) won the derby, cant remember three generations doing that
I backed Law Society...Slip Anchor was awesome in the going that day. What a great Derby. I think Cauthen once said Slip Anchor was better than Affirmed.
Was on Law Society as well
Cauthen's still the only jock to make all in the Derby since i can remember, think Snow Knight took it up halfway...and Steve did it Twice...
Cauthen's still the only jock to make all in the Derby since i can remember, think Snow Knight took it up halfway...and Steve did it Twice...
He was a great looking horse. Anyone recall a guy called Ernie from Clydebank waiting on Shadeed in the 2000 Gns for £250,000? He did a £10 or £20 accie - ante-post - on four horses that ended up favourites, inc. Shadeed and Oh So Sharp...? I asked Aka this a few weeks ago...feel like I dreamt this ffs...he was on CH4 racing to watch the 2000 Gns.
I remember that Vel
he had Oh So sharp, the Nat winner and summat else, he didnt even look that pleased after the thing had won ffs..mind you his arse would have been tweaking as Bairn loomed up
he had Oh So sharp, the Nat winner and summat else, he didnt even look that pleased after the thing had won ffs..mind you his arse would have been tweaking as Bairn loomed up
Yeah, Ernie had a bad stammer - it was very uncomfortable viewing.
zilzal1 06 Nov 14 11:53
Was on Law Society as well Cauthen's still the only jock to make all in the Derby since i can remember, think Snow Knight took it up halfway...and Steve did it Twice...
Guy had a clock in his head. Did it in the French on Old Vic too, of course.
Was on Law Society as well Cauthen's still the only jock to make all in the Derby since i can remember, think Snow Knight took it up halfway...and Steve did it Twice...
Guy had a clock in his head. Did it in the French on Old Vic too, of course.
That was the year that Some trainer(Huffer) put away Brough scott live on air and admitted it afterwards think it might have been the Dante meeting
think it might have been the Dante meeting
Best flat Jock imho, Mikael, mind you it helped that it was totally alien for most UK jocks to consider making the running then...
Solon's best known progeny, Solwhit, broke a shoulder while schooling this morning. Very sad.
Plenty of German breds coming into the NH game over the past the past few years. Stamina has always been their strongpoint. Remember Lando clocking the fastest 12f time one season, flopped in the arc on soft ground then dotted up in the Japan cup on his favoured fast ground.
German bloodlines have been around on the Anglo-Irish-French Classic scene ever since nine-time German leading sire Ticino (GER) and Rhea (GER) collaborated to produce 1958 Epsom Oaks heroine Bella Paola (FR). Bella Paola was followed by 1967 Oaks winner Pia, whose dam Peseta II (GER) was sired by six-time German leading sire Neckar (GER), and by 1985 Ever Ready Epsom Derby (Eng-I) winner Slip Anchor (GB), whose dam Sayonara (GER) came from a dam line that had distinguished itself in Germany since the days of Schwarzgold (GER), still regarded by many as the best racemare ever bred in Germany.
Such successes were too sporadic to cause widespread interest west of the Rhine in German horses as breeding stock. But several factors may be increasing interest in German Thoroughbreds in the twenty-first century. First is the ever-increasing saturation of Northern Dancer in the English-Irish-French Thoroughbred population, particularly via Sadler’s Wells and Danehill. Just as American breeders are considering South American stock as outcrosses to the dominant Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector bloodlines, European breeders are aware of the potential of German horses as outcrosses for their own stock. Generally having more in common with Italian and Eastern European breeding than with the Thoroughbred’s ancient cradles, German bloodlines are relatively free of the dominant Anglo-American lines but are rich with strains that are either fading or extinct elsewhere, such as the lines of Dark Ronald (GB) and Bahram.
Second, the heritage of the German Thoroughbred emphasizes staying power and soundness, both attractive qualities. Sprinters and juveniles draw relatively little attention in German racing, which is focused on middle-distance races for 3-year-olds and upwards, and the use of medication during his racing career will generally bar a stallion from standing in Germany, as will lack of a minimum level of racing performance. And the third factor bringing German Thoroughbreds to the attention of the rest of the world is sheer quality, which has become increasingly obvious in the last decade.
Consider: in 2001, Galileo (IRE), whose dam Urban Sea came from a female line prominent in German breeding since World War II, won the Vodafone Epsom Derby (Eng-I). The following year, German-bred Kazzia (GER) won the Vodafone Epsom Oaks (Eng-I). The 2004 racing season saw Blue Canari (FR), a son of five-time German leading sire Acatenango (GER), victorious in the Prix du Jockey-Club (Fr-I). In 2005, Hurricane Run (IRE), out of the Surumu (GER) mare Hold On (GER), won the Budweiser Irish Derby (Ire-I) and the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe Lucien Barriere (Fr-I). In 2007, Manduro (GER) topped Timeform’s ratings for Northern Hemisphere-based runners. And in 2009, no less than three horses with close German connections have come home first in major European Classics. One, of course, is Stanjames.com Two Thousand Guineas and Investec Epsom Derby (both Eng-I) hero Sea the Stars (IRE), a half-brother to Galileo. The others are Prix de Diane (Fr-I) victress Stacelita (FR) and Prix du Jockey Club winner Le Havre (IRE).
Like Bella Paola before her, Stacelita is the French-born produce of two German-bred parents. Her sire, Monsun (GER), was a two-time winner of Germany’s top all-aged race, the EMS Kurerpost Europa Preis (Ger-I), before beginning an equally distinguished career at stud. Four times the leading sire in Germany, he is also the sire of the aforementioned Manduro and is the sire of at least 78 stakes winners (15.5%) from his 502 foals of racing age according to The Jockey Club. As of this writing, 19-year-old Monsun remains active at Gestut Schlenderhan.
Stacelita also has a parallel to Slip Anchor in that she traces back to Schwarzgold in the direct female line. Her branch of Schwargold’s family has earned distinction in the United States and Ireland as well, for her fourth dam, the Jim French mare Southern Seas (GB), is the dam of 1989 U.S. champion turf male Steinlen (GB) and the granddam of 1996 Budweiser Irish Derby (Ire-I) winner Zagreb. Stacelita’s family has also earned previous distinction in France via Sagace (FR), French co-champion older male in 1985.
Irish-bred Le Havre gets his German connection through his dam, Marie Rheinberg (GER). Although she descends from a solid Anglo-French family, her sire Surako is a son of 1982 German Triple Crown winner Konigsstuhl (GER), the first horse ever to sweep the series. Three times the champion stallion in Germany, Konigsstuhl was sired by a similarly successful stallion in Dschingis Khan (GER), who led the German sire list in 1979 and 1981.
With the Irish Derby and Oaks (both Ire-I) yet to come, as well as the St. Leger Stakes (Eng-I) and its French and Irish counterparts, horses with German ancestry have already racked up an enviable record for the year. It seems safe to say that, in years to come, German bloodlines will continue to figure prominently in the Classic picture as European breeders continue to explore new sources of soundness and stamina
Read more on BloodHorse.com: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/51293/emergent-german-thorou...
Such successes were too sporadic to cause widespread interest west of the Rhine in German horses as breeding stock. But several factors may be increasing interest in German Thoroughbreds in the twenty-first century. First is the ever-increasing saturation of Northern Dancer in the English-Irish-French Thoroughbred population, particularly via Sadler’s Wells and Danehill. Just as American breeders are considering South American stock as outcrosses to the dominant Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector bloodlines, European breeders are aware of the potential of German horses as outcrosses for their own stock. Generally having more in common with Italian and Eastern European breeding than with the Thoroughbred’s ancient cradles, German bloodlines are relatively free of the dominant Anglo-American lines but are rich with strains that are either fading or extinct elsewhere, such as the lines of Dark Ronald (GB) and Bahram.
Second, the heritage of the German Thoroughbred emphasizes staying power and soundness, both attractive qualities. Sprinters and juveniles draw relatively little attention in German racing, which is focused on middle-distance races for 3-year-olds and upwards, and the use of medication during his racing career will generally bar a stallion from standing in Germany, as will lack of a minimum level of racing performance. And the third factor bringing German Thoroughbreds to the attention of the rest of the world is sheer quality, which has become increasingly obvious in the last decade.
Consider: in 2001, Galileo (IRE), whose dam Urban Sea came from a female line prominent in German breeding since World War II, won the Vodafone Epsom Derby (Eng-I). The following year, German-bred Kazzia (GER) won the Vodafone Epsom Oaks (Eng-I). The 2004 racing season saw Blue Canari (FR), a son of five-time German leading sire Acatenango (GER), victorious in the Prix du Jockey-Club (Fr-I). In 2005, Hurricane Run (IRE), out of the Surumu (GER) mare Hold On (GER), won the Budweiser Irish Derby (Ire-I) and the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe Lucien Barriere (Fr-I). In 2007, Manduro (GER) topped Timeform’s ratings for Northern Hemisphere-based runners. And in 2009, no less than three horses with close German connections have come home first in major European Classics. One, of course, is Stanjames.com Two Thousand Guineas and Investec Epsom Derby (both Eng-I) hero Sea the Stars (IRE), a half-brother to Galileo. The others are Prix de Diane (Fr-I) victress Stacelita (FR) and Prix du Jockey Club winner Le Havre (IRE).
Like Bella Paola before her, Stacelita is the French-born produce of two German-bred parents. Her sire, Monsun (GER), was a two-time winner of Germany’s top all-aged race, the EMS Kurerpost Europa Preis (Ger-I), before beginning an equally distinguished career at stud. Four times the leading sire in Germany, he is also the sire of the aforementioned Manduro and is the sire of at least 78 stakes winners (15.5%) from his 502 foals of racing age according to The Jockey Club. As of this writing, 19-year-old Monsun remains active at Gestut Schlenderhan.
Stacelita also has a parallel to Slip Anchor in that she traces back to Schwarzgold in the direct female line. Her branch of Schwargold’s family has earned distinction in the United States and Ireland as well, for her fourth dam, the Jim French mare Southern Seas (GB), is the dam of 1989 U.S. champion turf male Steinlen (GB) and the granddam of 1996 Budweiser Irish Derby (Ire-I) winner Zagreb. Stacelita’s family has also earned previous distinction in France via Sagace (FR), French co-champion older male in 1985.
Irish-bred Le Havre gets his German connection through his dam, Marie Rheinberg (GER). Although she descends from a solid Anglo-French family, her sire Surako is a son of 1982 German Triple Crown winner Konigsstuhl (GER), the first horse ever to sweep the series. Three times the champion stallion in Germany, Konigsstuhl was sired by a similarly successful stallion in Dschingis Khan (GER), who led the German sire list in 1979 and 1981.
With the Irish Derby and Oaks (both Ire-I) yet to come, as well as the St. Leger Stakes (Eng-I) and its French and Irish counterparts, horses with German ancestry have already racked up an enviable record for the year. It seems safe to say that, in years to come, German bloodlines will continue to figure prominently in the Classic picture as European breeders continue to explore new sources of soundness and stamina
Read more on BloodHorse.com: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/51293/emergent-german-thorou...
DARK RONALD appears a LOT - a LOT! - further back in the pedigree of Galileo.
MONSON, my son!
I've been banging on about him for years now.
I've been banging on about him for years now.
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