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BBC 1 tonight at 11.35...might as well start another gratuitous Hitler thread...
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It's amazing Adolf is still the biggest draw on TV
We have a dark fascination with this man
I did not watch it, but imagine he banned all Jewish artists, which at a guess were their best
We have a dark fascination with this man
I did not watch it, but imagine he banned all Jewish artists, which at a guess were their best
Hitler wanted to be an artist himself when he was young
but was rejected as not good enough...
In hindsight a tragic decision for the World
Surely he was not that bad..a few crap paintings would have been better than 55 million dead
but was rejected as not good enough...
In hindsight a tragic decision for the World
Surely he was not that bad..a few crap paintings would have been better than 55 million dead
I did not watch it, but...
that's what I love about you ebul, you always acquaint yourself with all the facts before forming an opinion
that's what I love about you ebul, you always acquaint yourself with all the facts before forming an opinion
You know Gery that is a very good point. If Hitler had been accepted to the Academy perhaps, as you state, WWII wouldn`t have occurred 
............ then again, world history would have also been changed if Hitler had been killed when he was struck by an automobile in Munich in the 1920s.
p.s. The driver of the car was a young Englishman holidaying in Germany. He would later become Lord Howard de Walden, the famous racehorse owner of such greats like Lanzarote and Kris, etc.
p.s. The driver of the car was a young Englishman holidaying in Germany. He would later become Lord Howard de Walden, the famous racehorse owner of such greats like Lanzarote and Kris, etc.
http://sobadsogood.com/2013/07/22/25-rarely-seen-artworks-painted-by-adolf-hitler/
He definitely had talent as an artist, selling thousands of street paintings and postcards, although admittedly he was no Velasquez
He definitely had talent as an artist, selling thousands of street paintings and postcards, although admittedly he was no Velasquez
If Hitler had not been in charge of the Nazi`s then perhaps someone else with a greater strategic mind would have come along and Germany succeeded.
true, or the war may have just been delayed by a decade or so and fought with nuclear weapons 
Yes, imagine if the greatest scientific minds had remained in Germany and the Atomic Bomb was in Nazi hands.
It doesn`t bear thinking about. Would have been Armageddon and We wouldn`t have been born
Angel Gabrial • October 29, 2014 1:48 AM GMT
If Hitler had not been in charge of the Nazi`s then perhaps someone else with a greater strategic mind would have come along and Germany succeeded.
Perhaps...but it is difficult to see anybody else in the Nazi party who could have done it...
I think Hitler was a one off..
He tapped straight into the German psyche, he sensed all their grievance's, especially the defeat in WWI,
the unfair reparations....and of course their hatred of Jews.
I think his power was in manipulation. He ruled by a mixture of love and fear.
He was a man filled with the most incredible hatred...he came from nothing,
in a way he fooled the Germans...but I think we still do not think we quite know how?
Other than that he was not particularly impressive. The division of Poland was a brilliant strategy
But was it his own idea or Ribbentrop's? His talented military commanders won him his victories.
He in no way compares with great military leaders of the past, notably Napoleon, an exceptionally gifted man
I think we are still scratching our heads over Hitler.
How did he do it?
What was his secret, his dark charisma seems to still hold us though.
If Hitler had not been in charge of the Nazi`s then perhaps someone else with a greater strategic mind would have come along and Germany succeeded.
Perhaps...but it is difficult to see anybody else in the Nazi party who could have done it...
I think Hitler was a one off..
He tapped straight into the German psyche, he sensed all their grievance's, especially the defeat in WWI,
the unfair reparations....and of course their hatred of Jews.
I think his power was in manipulation. He ruled by a mixture of love and fear.
He was a man filled with the most incredible hatred...he came from nothing,
in a way he fooled the Germans...but I think we still do not think we quite know how?
Other than that he was not particularly impressive. The division of Poland was a brilliant strategy
But was it his own idea or Ribbentrop's? His talented military commanders won him his victories.
He in no way compares with great military leaders of the past, notably Napoleon, an exceptionally gifted man
I think we are still scratching our heads over Hitler.
How did he do it?
What was his secret, his dark charisma seems to still hold us though.
Angel Gabrial • October 29, 2014 2:22 AM GMT
Yes, imagine if the greatest scientific minds had remained in Germany and the Atomic Bomb was in Nazi hands.Shocked
His hatred of the Jews drove the best minds from Germany. His hatred of the Jews was totally counter productive
when it came to winning the war.
Initially his hated of the Jews cemented his popularity, because he gave the Germans someone they could blame for all
their troubles. So it was a clever political move.
The problem was, he believed it himself. If he had been a brilliant strategist he should have known he would need
them for any war he fought.
Was Hitler ever completely sane?
Perhaps his insanity was his secret..and his immense capacity for hatred?
Yes, imagine if the greatest scientific minds had remained in Germany and the Atomic Bomb was in Nazi hands.Shocked
His hatred of the Jews drove the best minds from Germany. His hatred of the Jews was totally counter productive
when it came to winning the war.
Initially his hated of the Jews cemented his popularity, because he gave the Germans someone they could blame for all
their troubles. So it was a clever political move.
The problem was, he believed it himself. If he had been a brilliant strategist he should have known he would need
them for any war he fought.
Was Hitler ever completely sane?
Perhaps his insanity was his secret..and his immense capacity for hatred?
true, or the war may have just been delayed by a decade or so and fought with nuclear weapons Shocked
This is an interesting point (although a diversion from art).
WW2 was the catalyst and the reason why the atomic bomb was developed 70 years ago. It was just a theory and nobody knew if it would work but the Allies couldn't take the risk that the Nazis would beat them to it. Without the war it's doubtful if the resources and the great minds would have come together to do it at that time.
It's highly likely that we would have them by now but the world would be a very different place.
This is an interesting point (although a diversion from art).
WW2 was the catalyst and the reason why the atomic bomb was developed 70 years ago. It was just a theory and nobody knew if it would work but the Allies couldn't take the risk that the Nazis would beat them to it. Without the war it's doubtful if the resources and the great minds would have come together to do it at that time.
It's highly likely that we would have them by now but the world would be a very different place.
Jeez...so no-one watched the telly programme...'cause they were too busy thinking about the Manhattan Project and Phillip K. D1ck-like alternate histories involving Hitler...now I know how Stevie Strikes feels when one of his threads gets hi-jacked...
I ain't bovvered, though...I...kinda LIKE it...
I ain't bovvered, though...I...kinda LIKE it...
Hitler was better at decorative ceilings – his Gestucco work is much admired.
Too right, Do wah Diddy - the Jews don't half buy some odd looking stuff...the Jewish lady was buying all sorts of avant-garde stuff, and she wasn't really rich...that black and white photo of the Kandinsky over the mantelpiece -- painting must be worth upwards of £20 million now.
Sad about Ernst Kirchner - over 600 paintings seized by the Nazis and he killed himself. Goebbels picked out the Emil Nolde painting of poppies for his house, but Hitler told him it had to go.
Loved the painting of the neo-classical nudes, the big triptych Hitler liked...but I also liked the big Max Beckmann triptych - wouldn't like to choose between them, though the Beckmann painting must be worth 100 times more than the other. It worked in modern art's favour that Hitler hated it.
Sad about Ernst Kirchner - over 600 paintings seized by the Nazis and he killed himself. Goebbels picked out the Emil Nolde painting of poppies for his house, but Hitler told him it had to go.
Loved the painting of the neo-classical nudes, the big triptych Hitler liked...but I also liked the big Max Beckmann triptych - wouldn't like to choose between them, though the Beckmann painting must be worth 100 times more than the other. It worked in modern art's favour that Hitler hated it.
My sister was on the program so I sky-plussed it but haven't seen it yet. She was interviewed by Alan Yentob as an 'expert' on stolen art.
She might know me because I steal sculptures...yes I've lifted the odd bust in my time.
Velasquez - Do you know anything about a German artist named Herman Gradl?
Would 5k be a good investment for an original oil painting by him in good condition?
Thanks mate
Would 5k be a good investment for an original oil painting by him in good condition?
Thanks mate
I've never heard of him, Mac. After 5 minutes of Internet searching, I'd say a big fat NO...there is some info on Wiki, but it's in German. I can see he was a genre painter of traditional German pastoral scenes - they look a bit worthy and boring.
With 5K - you in Scotland? - you could buy something at a proper Scottish Art sale at one of the well known Scottish auctioneers. They have sales all the time, of Scottish art. You could buy Scottish artists who are sadly no longer with us...William Crosbie, Stephen Campbell, James Cowie, John Cunningham, Robert MacBryde, Robert Colquhoun, Joan Eardley...if you avoid commercial galleries and buy at source here, you are getting a bit of value and paintings should at least maintain their value or appreciate.
With 5K - you in Scotland? - you could buy something at a proper Scottish Art sale at one of the well known Scottish auctioneers. They have sales all the time, of Scottish art. You could buy Scottish artists who are sadly no longer with us...William Crosbie, Stephen Campbell, James Cowie, John Cunningham, Robert MacBryde, Robert Colquhoun, Joan Eardley...if you avoid commercial galleries and buy at source here, you are getting a bit of value and paintings should at least maintain their value or appreciate.
You have to be sure of PROVENANCE and these artists tend to pass through these sales many times. People hang on to a painting for a few years then re-sell.
I don't have a clue about the German art market, though there are websites that want fees and you can find out about prices, etc. Another thing you could do is go to degree shows and buy cheap, for a few hundred quid, but this is a tricky business, a bit like the fitba' transfer market - sometimes you get Mo Bangura and sometimes Victor Wanyama.
Third option - spend some dough on paint and cotton duck and paint them yourself...
I don't have a clue about the German art market, though there are websites that want fees and you can find out about prices, etc. Another thing you could do is go to degree shows and buy cheap, for a few hundred quid, but this is a tricky business, a bit like the fitba' transfer market - sometimes you get Mo Bangura and sometimes Victor Wanyama.
Third option - spend some dough on paint and cotton duck and paint them yourself...
Thanks Velasquez for the advice.
I got a little info on the artist:
The Gottbegnadeten list ("God-gifted list" or "Important Artist Exempt List") was a 36-page list of artists considered crucial to German culture. The list was assembled in September 1944 by Joseph Goebbels, the head of the Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, and Germany's chancellor Adolf Hitler. Hermann Gradl was Gottbegnadeten listed by Hitler himself.
The painting listed for sale - WAIT FOR IT - was meant to have been on Hitler`s wall in The Bunker and that`s why I thought it may be worth a lot more given the historical consequence of the work, although proving authenticity could be difficult. I was just thinking, given the nature of this thread, that one could possibly make a quick turnover on the item?
Third option - spend some dough on paint and cotton duck and paint them yourself..
I got a little info on the artist:
The Gottbegnadeten list ("God-gifted list" or "Important Artist Exempt List") was a 36-page list of artists considered crucial to German culture. The list was assembled in September 1944 by Joseph Goebbels, the head of the Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, and Germany's chancellor Adolf Hitler. Hermann Gradl was Gottbegnadeten listed by Hitler himself.
The painting listed for sale - WAIT FOR IT - was meant to have been on Hitler`s wall in The Bunker and that`s why I thought it may be worth a lot more given the historical consequence of the work, although proving authenticity could be difficult. I was just thinking, given the nature of this thread, that one could possibly make a quick turnover on the item?
Third option - spend some dough on paint and cotton duck and paint them yourself..
Is this info in an auction catalogue, Mac? Surely there is no way to prove what was in the bunker unless...a) Some official form was signed to put the painting there...b) A photograph exists of the painting in the bunker.
I think that a) Official form - could be fairly easily forged anyway...
If this is on EBay I'd forget about it...sold by a man with a funny moustache in Paraguay...?
I think that a) Official form - could be fairly easily forged anyway...
If this is on EBay I'd forget about it...sold by a man with a funny moustache in Paraguay...?
Third option - spend some dough on paint and cotton duck and paint them yourself
It's what John Mayatt did and despite a minor setback has done alright for himself.
It's what John Mayatt did and despite a minor setback has done alright for himself.
Exactly, Foinavon - y'all get cracking.
Google this : Lee Miller: the woman in Hitler’s bathtub
Google this : Lee Miller: the woman in Hitler’s bathtub
Shaun Greenhaigh - the Bolton forger...anyone see The Artful Codgers? Stunning talent - an astonishing story - would make a great film, recalling those classy British movies from the 50s.
Lee Miller: the woman in Hitler’s bathtub
What a fantastic woman. Thanks for the post Velasquez.
What a fantastic woman. Thanks for the post Velasquez.
And by the way, thanks for the post, Mac - "Gottbegnadeten list" - never heard of such a thing - only the Germans would come up with something as literal, sentimental and presumptuous as that. That's a real insight...
Used to have a gorgeous German girlfriend...
GERMAN LASS : Oh but...um...you must understand? Yes? This painter is a particular type of Cherman man...?
ME : Eh...yeah...
GERMAN LASS : Die flugenshaftner unter gassbanger as we say in Chermany...this man...he must count the cornflakes he has for breakfast...you understand?
ME : (fake laughter) Yeah...I think...I...
GERMAN LASS : Yes! Yes of course! So certain and he longs for the Old Days! As Clavdia Chauchat says to Hans, "Gruffenspieler macht Zachlichte meine Kornflaken zoggy..."
GERMAN LASS : Oh but...um...you must understand? Yes? This painter is a particular type of Cherman man...?
ME : Eh...yeah...
GERMAN LASS : Die flugenshaftner unter gassbanger as we say in Chermany...this man...he must count the cornflakes he has for breakfast...you understand?
ME : (fake laughter) Yeah...I think...I...
GERMAN LASS : Yes! Yes of course! So certain and he longs for the Old Days! As Clavdia Chauchat says to Hans, "Gruffenspieler macht Zachlichte meine Kornflaken zoggy..."
Don't know if the programme covered this point, but when Hitler was a down-and-out in Vienna he got a Jew to sell his daubs for him.
It's not about Adolf the Dabbler, it's about that hoard of paintings that turned up a few years ago in a flat and the background of the Nazis vs Jews, the art and how it came to be in that flat. It was very good and part 2 is on next week.
You may find this interesting Vel.
http://www.germanartgallery.eu/en/Webshop/0/product/info/Hermann_Gradl,_Tegernsee&id=172
http://www.germanartgallery.eu/en/Webshop/0/product/info/Hermann_Gradl,_Tegernsee&id=172
That is very interesting..."The German Art Gallery" is in...Holland?
The trouble with this artist is that he is on the wrong side of Art History. No reputable art critic will ever praise his work - in fact, it will be shunned. The fact that Hitler praised and supported him is actually a big negative. IMO, the people who buy his work will probably collect and trade Nazi memorabilia - I know a guy who sold his collection and built a house off the proceeds.
Just looking at the stuff on that website...it must be a specialist art market and that stuff is never going to be mainstream again - it is an entirely separate market. In that telly programme the other night, they had the neo-classical "Fascist" nudes in the triptych, placed next to the triptych by Max Beckmann...I'm guessing the nudes would sell for £100,000 to £300,000...and the Beckmann would get...£30 Million?
I wouldn't spend £5K on this Gradl guy's painting unless a guaranteed buyer was lined up and he bought into the whole bunker story, etc. That is a commercial gallery and they are going to have a SERIOUS mark up. My guess is that you could go to Germany and hoover those Gradl paintings up for £300 or £400 if you know where to look...in other words, you could Grabl those Gradls......I'll get me coat...
The trouble with this artist is that he is on the wrong side of Art History. No reputable art critic will ever praise his work - in fact, it will be shunned. The fact that Hitler praised and supported him is actually a big negative. IMO, the people who buy his work will probably collect and trade Nazi memorabilia - I know a guy who sold his collection and built a house off the proceeds.
Just looking at the stuff on that website...it must be a specialist art market and that stuff is never going to be mainstream again - it is an entirely separate market. In that telly programme the other night, they had the neo-classical "Fascist" nudes in the triptych, placed next to the triptych by Max Beckmann...I'm guessing the nudes would sell for £100,000 to £300,000...and the Beckmann would get...£30 Million?
I wouldn't spend £5K on this Gradl guy's painting unless a guaranteed buyer was lined up and he bought into the whole bunker story, etc. That is a commercial gallery and they are going to have a SERIOUS mark up. My guess is that you could go to Germany and hoover those Gradl paintings up for £300 or £400 if you know where to look...in other words, you could Grabl those Gradls......I'll get me coat...
Thanks mate, there is no way I would buy it after reading your informed opinion. There is no way of proving that Hitler actually had it on his wall in the Bunker like you correctly stated and that`s the only thing that would make it more valuable than the asking price of 5k. I had a look on a US valuation site and the average price for an original oil by Gradl is just under 5k, although the majority sold for just over 1k and the top price paid being 12k.
I have a copy of Sister Wendy`s 1000 Masterpieces and there is not one Gradl in it
I have a copy of Sister Wendy`s 1000 Masterpieces and there is not one Gradl in it
I've got a Sister Wendy book too - got it as a gift. I wrote to her about 20 years ago and she sent me a nice post-card.
That was nice of her to reply. Most celebrities don`t. I liked her tv show. She was a bit eccentric but entertaining. Is she still alive?
I think so - haven't heard otherwise...quite surprised that she doesn't really like people...I wrote to her saying that modern art was cr@p and she should stop praising it...she wrote back saying that God is creative, etc. - a short reply in small handwriting that was difficult to read.
Just want to say...I'm not slandering Sister Wendy, as she said she disliked people in a tv documentary she did a couple of years ago...did anyone read about the Caravaggio sold for £42,000 by Sotheby's...and it's worth £11,000,000?
Yes Velasquez, The Card Sharps. It was assessed as a work by an unknown follower of the Caravaggio and the owner sold it for 42k on that assumption. Later determined to be an original Caravaggio and sold for 11 million Previous owner is suing Sothebys.
Previous owner is suing Sothebys.
Don`t think he has a chance. Bit like trying to sue a doctor for wrong diagnosis.
Looking at the original on Wiki...would love to see that...STUNNING...
The raggedy glove, the patterned textiles, the knife, the feathers, the light...
Other good ones on similar themes are George de la Tour and Claudio Bravo...
Other good ones on similar themes are George de la Tour and Claudio Bravo...
http://www.bertc.com/subfive/g147/images/bravo13.jpg
CLAUDIO BRAVO - THE FORTUNE TELLER.
CLAUDIO BRAVO - THE FORTUNE TELLER.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/La_Tour_Le_Tricheur_Louvre_RF1972-8.jpg
The Cardsharp with the Ace of Clubs - George de la Tour.
The Cardsharp with the Ace of Clubs - George de la Tour.
The Card Sharps is a magnificent piece of work, but all I can afford is the cheaper version:
[ This image is no longer available. ]
[ This image is no longer available. ]
I`m useless with my art investments. I once bought a Stradivarius and a Monet for only 10k each. Looked like a magnificent investment.
.... only problem is that Monet makes dreadful violins and Stradivarius is a lousy painter
copyright/tommy cooper 1972
.... only problem is that Monet makes dreadful violins and Stradivarius is a lousy painter
copyright/tommy cooper 1972
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