Peadophile Hunter ch 4 now

I hope he doesn't go the same way of the Crocodile and get killed by a Jelly baby.

I hope he doesn't go the same way of the Crocodile Hunter and get killed by a Jelly baby.

if you donate 1500 he will tattoo your business on his leg

schalke could get his taxi tattoed on the hunters leg

schalke needs publicity as he complains he makes little monies , so maybe this could be a plan

Or he could quit gambling and work harder.

The intelligent folk amongst us will realise this guy is just a thug finding somewhere to channel his obvious hatred.

Leave it to the police as they did a cracking job in Rotherham.

Stinson should perhaps Chair the Government`s historic child abuse inquiry.

Ok he has a criminal record for burning down a school but at least he has no `friendship` connections to Leon Brittan.

is the hunter from merton like leon?

Hunter hasn't revealed if he was abused as a child.

Putting 2 & 2 together is it possible a teacher(s) abused him at the school he burnt down?

i think in the home

he said he wouldnt talk about him , but said he seen boys it happen to boys in a home he was in , so he was one of them more than likely

I've just watched it after reading this thread. Excellent viewing, but quite disturbing to watch.

I've been trying to think of a way where an innocent bloke could be dragged into this, although not probable it could happen. That would be awful if they ever got the wrong bloke and plastered his face all over the web. I couldn't imagine a worse crime for a bloke to be accused of.

can't see how an innocent could get mixed up in it, anyone going to meet kids having sent messages along the lines that were shown in the tv show deserve all they get

The Paedophile Hunter ... lol ... what a thick load of C**ts Channel 4 are . Anybody with half a brain cell and access to a dictionary could tell you that a paedophile is someone who is attracted to pre-pubescents. Not the post pubescent ages used in the majority of the setups. WALOFS

What age would you draw the line at then Kelly?

Are you asking me for my opinion on the age of consent Angel? ... as that's not really relevant to my point?

The problem with using the term (paedophile) in such a lazy wide ranging way is that it makes no distinction between attraction to a 3yr old and attraction to a 15yr old. Absolutely no equivalency.

Very true, however regardless of the progress of puberty i would still call it paedophilia for sexual attraction to 13 year olds. Many of those men/women who are attracted to 13 year olds will also be looking at younger kids.

Sure getting the blood flowing at a 15 year old Caroline Wozniaki in a tennis skirt is not paedophilia, but many of these 15 year old set ups are of the vulnerable types, advertising themselves as home alone. I doubt these men would turn down the girls if they were 13 do you?

Appreciate your sentiment but the definition is predicated on the progress of puberty. Age is no determinant, in terms of proper usage that much is unequivocal.

These hunters were using that well known noncing website, Plenty Of Fish! This is an over 18's dating site. Are they entrapping lonely young men into things they wouldn't normally do?

These vigilantes are bullies who, because their primary targets are reprehensible, seek to justify their bullying. When decent people intervene, they revert to type - still bullies.

The best part of the show is when someone ran the tw@t over.

What's your idea to stop the abuse of young children then ham?

Kelly i do agree the word is overused in misuse. However there was the odd paedophile being cornered in the prog.

It`s always happened Money Tree, vulnerable humans will always be targeted by a small minority.

It shouldn`t be in the human psyche but for some it is. Science will probably be able to detect the part of the brain for sexual attraction and people `treated`...but as we know science can also misdiagnose.

Well, this 'Hunter' can say what he likes...but he has not caught anybody doing anything even vaguely wrong. Apparently the site is only open to over 18s. Therefore anybody posting on the site is over 18. As for some of the women claiming to be 13, well that is probably because all women lie about their age. The victims of his entrapment were [probably expecting to meet a 23yo who liked to dress as a schoolie. This is obvious because one of them took booze and cigs with him, obviously gifts for an older person. Had he been going to meet a kid, he would have taken pop and a 'my little pony'. Innit?

That's right cause went one was asked about having sex he said she could of had it.

Im happy to accept arguments from both sides as I'm sure most are the problem is people who think he is wrong have no answers to the correct way to stop these predators.

Money Tree, let the police deal with it. Not some convicted, uneducated chav bully. Putting videos online in particular is deplorable.

the police dealt with one of them 3 times he was set to court , now serving 3 years

so after 2 warnings they still trapped him a 3rd time

Problem is Hamsterdam the police aren't dealing with it.

I have a real distain for vigilantes generally but as the ex police officer said the problem is big and they are underfunded.

The images grown men sent to people they believe to be a child were truly sickening. As a parent it is scary knowing their are so many predators out there trying to snare young and vulnerable children. Whilst his actions are small beer in the greater scheme of things the fact of the matter is it will save many children from abuse as a lot of paedos will see things like this and it will scare a lot into facing potential consequences before acting on their desires.

the police wouldnt have sent hi to court 3 times for nothing

its obvious the police in hunters area are not too bothered with what he does , but the higher up coppers dont want this in the public eye as it makes them look bad

Interestingly you should say that naydam as the one guy who didn't admit his guilt used that exact defence ... Its an 18+ website and users must agree to those terms. He was the only one the CPS decided not to pursue. If the others had used a bit of common (nonce)sense there would have been absolutely no chance of a prosecution.

Ron Ball in Guardian :

Channel 4’s decision to air The Paedophile Hunter, a documentary about a vigilante who tries to entrap and humiliate paedophiles, has been the centre of debate this week. It raises many important questions about the relationship between the public and law, while providing a chilling insight into the dark world of paedophilia.

It also did an excellent job of demonstrating why the character at the centre of the documentary, Stinson Hunter, should desist from his activities.

A large amount of police time is dedicated to obtaining prosecutions for paedophiles: since 2012 almost 100 people have been charged for sexual offences against under-18s in Warwickshire alone. However superficially attractive, Hunter’s methods risk jeopardising a lot of that work.

One of the extremely misleading impressions created by the programme is that the police are not addressing these issues. Following the broadcast, many people on social media have questioned the effectiveness of the police in investigating the online exploitation of children.

However, that is simply not the case. Since January 2012, 164 people have been prosecuted for committing 404 sexual offences against people under 18. In the past 12 months the force has launched 33 separate investigations into online exploitation, including working with the National Crime Agency on the high-profile national investigation Operation Notarise.

Following the Oxford revelations about child sexual exploitation in 2013, I ordered a review of all of the policies within Warwickshire and made clear that I favoured the setting up of a multi-agency safeguarding hub (Mash), where all the relevant agencies sit together and share intelligence and information about vulnerable children. Together with our partners in West Mercia, we are committing in excess of £2.5m to protecting vulnerable people, and child protection will be a major beneficiary of that investment.

Warwickshire police have met Hunter on a number of occasions and tried to find a way to work with him. If he was genuinely concerned about public good, he would hand over his evidence to the police, rather than exposing people online, so that officers with the right training can take it forward. By making their identities public he makes it difficult for the case to go to a fair trial, and so his work cannot always lead to a conviction.

The programme finished with a list of the offenders trapped and the sentences they received. This could have all been achieved without the ritual humiliation on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube which Hunter seems to revel in. The fact that the family members of the offender, including children, can also be seriously damaged by such public humiliation is clearly of no concern to him. It simply serves to achieve a greater public profile for him.

Is this how we want justice administered in this country? For obvious and perfectly justifiable reasons paedophiles and paedophilia generate huge anger, but that must not be allowed to cloud judgment and produce outcomes that are completely unacceptable. To get sufficient evidence to prosecute paedophiles – and particularly the hugely dangerous paedophile rings – takes thousands of hours of dedicated covert police work, and Hunter could jeopardise one of those operations. He has no idea of what he might be stumbling into, and as with so much of his work, he blasts on oblivious to any damage he might be doing elsewhere.

Hunter has a choice: he can present evidence to the proper authorities to deal with judiciously, or he can continue to try to whip up the mob.

Extreme emotions and justice make very poor bed fellows. What is apparent from the programme was that the humiliation and rabble-rousing are essential drivers for Hunter, but neither has a place in the pursuit of justice.

There is no doubt that paedophilia and child sexual exploitation has to be confronted, but it must not be confronted this way.

I hope you don't think that I am speaking from experience! 

do we start to hide murderers from the public eye incase they get humiliated poor soles

i agree it could hurt the family but there is no alternative really is there? the guy got 12 month suspended sentence now people in his area know to avoid him or let him babysit their kids

all the people moaning would start moaning even more if they were living next door to one of these sickos and where not told

The problem with the police way of stopping this is in many cases a crime is committed and a child's life thrown into turmoil for the sexual gratification of a twisted man.

At least this way that part is avoided. Is he right to do it? I'm not judging that. Does his work have results? I think that's a huge yes.

The hope is predators see that and think twice.

What's happened to all those of you who say things like 'It doesn't hurt them' or 'they must have wanted it' or 'if they don't report it in a week, that should be it'.??
Am I to assume that if any underage sex had taken place with these (theoretical) children, you would all have poo-poohed their reporting it to the police in 20yrs time when they realised that their 'internet friend' was actually a serial sex offender and STILL molesting 13yr-olds?

Surely, you would all be saying that it's so unfair, and hinting at compensation claims? Wouldn't you?
'Cos you bloody well do NOW!

The problem is attraction has absolutely nothing to do with morality. Sexually mature men have always and will always find sexually mature girls attractive (irrespective of age). That is what nature intended and none of us can fight nature.

Of course most normal men choose not to dwell upon or act on that attraction and quite rightly but calling those who do sickos and perverts is a little bit fatuous imo .

i agree, instead of calling them names a litre of petrol and a match would be much more effective

ill light the match

I agree with Elise. The guy who visited the 11 year old would be the first guy on the fire.

No it isn't. I find your attitude more than a bit creepy and disturbing to be honest.

to Kelly brook

Seems to be a disturbingly high number of paedo-sympathisers on here. New lows of weaselness being reached, even for Chit Chat. I`m embarrassed for them, and glad my children don`t live near them.

you hope they dont live near them

Donation - £1,000 + You selected

Stinson will have your company name (Company brand & size permitting) tattooed on his leg. The tattoo will be a reasonable size and on his lower leg so will be visible. This pledge also includes all previous rewards.

Oh dear. This is the retard you guys are supporting! May god have mercy on your minimum wages soles.

I have to say I have a real lol at Hams posts.

how much has he raised now to go on holiday?

i seen it at 14k

hamster wants to put an end to the hunter for some reason , i cant think of what reason

14k is rather disappointing given the hype. Gives me hope.

He's a typical "I know where you live" bully. Research a little deeper into his antics and he's not the working class hero the morons are led to believe.

everyone knows hes a bit of a t0sser , him and his mate with FBI shades look cool though

I don't think he wants to put an end to him. It would help if the guy would operate in a less gung-ho manner.
After all, none of these people did anything whatsoever to a youngster. That is a fact.

I speak, of course,, about the material shown on the documentary.

Well they did actually:

- attempted to groom people under the age of consen
-  sent indecent images to what they believed to be a minor
-  and travelled to their premises armed with something for the kids to hang their Hello Kitty towels on!

Why would he believe the person was a minor? The site was (I believe) restricted to people over 18 years of age.

But they all believed they we're send the messages and filthy pictures to children did they not?

So their excuse is it's an adult site even though they were informed of the child's age?

Women always lie about their age. It would rather spoil the 'role play' if the woman said 'actually, I'm 32'.
Lots of women like dressing up as schoolies, they've been doing it for years.

ok they are all innocent , go let roger wilson look after your kids one night

why did he run away and now answer the questions , if it was all role play then surely he would just say so and laugh at the hunter

naydam, either you haven't seen the programme or.......

One of the strangest programmes I've ever seen I thought it was a p1sstake docu soap when I first started watching itthey obviously caught a few paedos out but what about the bloke who committed suicide.I find it hard to believe he was a paedophile,one thing these perverts have in common is they feel no pity or shame as displayed by the ones caught out.The bloke who committed suicide didn't have the profile of one of these,he also had a wife and baby that left a bit of a bad taste watching the programme...

He felt threatened?

Charwell. I did see some of the programme but it all seemed a bit OTT. Do 13 year old girls (who are still getting used to junior tampax) take a look at some fellas hot throbbing todger, when they've never even seen one before invite him round to come and **** them?
I'd have thought that they would immediately switch off their computer and not go near the internet for next six months!

How do you think grooming works then?! Don't be so stupid.

There's another group doing this and one of the men they interacted with claims all along that he knew it was not an 11 year old due to her sexual knowledge and said he thought something was going on. Yet he still agreed to meet up.
Now I'm not suggesting he was after sex but if you smell a fish why not just move on and ignore the person?

smell a fish?

I like the theme of this programme though I have not watched it yet. Perhaps we could capture some terrorists by a similar method.

firstly, more than two texts to a minor from an adult in that context is classed as grooming and is an offence

with regard to the suicide, the man committed suicide after being interviewed by the police, not after he'd been exposed at the house which wasn't made clear in the docu, hunter passed his details to the authorities and he therefore knew he was going to be dealt with after he was interviewed under caution

9 of the 9 that went to court were prosecuted, some had previous, there was just one of those featured the cps didn't go after, i'd say his strike rate compared to most police prosecutions is pretty much in line

It would be so much better if the police did their job but they don't.Just happy to go after ageing celebs instead of politicians and gangs systematically raping vulnerable girls.

Too many people for ever rush to protect these scum. Guess as long as lessons are learnt everything will be alright.Haven't seen the program and he possibly is a bully but at least he's keeping the problem in the public eye.

hes only wanted £10,000

1,316
Backers
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pledged of £10,000 goal
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days to go

absolutely right bigmo, it's not ideal that vigilantes are replacing the police but these predators are rightly being put in the spotlight, it's just a shame that so few are being caught and the real question is why the police do not have enough manpower to tackle the issue

stinton hunter is not the solution, but people like him open the debate and make people aware of the risks that kids face online

it appears to be a huge issue based on the ease with which three rank amateurs have reeled in their catch, i can understand people opposing their methods but can see no reason to then defend what are sad/sick elements of society preying on kids, the more that get locked up the better

The alternative would be for the police to do something similar to what Stinson Hunter is doing. The police would have to pose as under age girls and then they can have access to the IP address of the persons computer.

Then documentation could be processed like a bus lane ticket( which they are quick to fine you for EVEN ON A SUNDAY)

The chaps then tempted by (knowingly)underage girls online would then be charged £60, but if paid within 14 days only £30 but if not paid within 28 days the fine is increased to £90.

Surprised the Gov has not thought of this cash cow already, or would the Westminster IP address be constantly flashing RED ALERT!! RED ALERT!!

It was an odd and difficult watch. I got the impression that Stinson's motivation was complex and he wasn't primarily fuelled by taking these people down.

I must admit to being shocked at the sentencing though with the number of suspended sentences being handed down seeming very lenient. As for vigilantism not protecting the relatives of the offenders, surely Yewtree would demonstrate that the police aren't really too worried about the anonymity of people they haven't even formally charged, let alone those convicted.

and technically kelly is of course right. It should have really been called "The Hebephile Hunter", but given that it's a rarely used word, and that it's not Stinson's epithet, it doesn't really seem too important.

dstyle, the police have employed those methods, there was a tv documentary a couple of years ago where a small team i think based in london were on forums etc waiting for contact, think there were a couple of female police officers in the team with a detective, can't rem what the show was

2012 article

Dan is a detective sergeant, and a covert internet investigator with the Metropolitan police. At the Met's paedophile and high tech crime unit, we sit in front of his laptop as he navigates to an internet chatroom. He's already set me up with a username — louiseis14 — and clicks the button that tells users I'm online.

Within 10 seconds, two men whose profile names suggest they're in their 30s and 40s want to talk to me. Dan selects one at random — lets call him 'anonman_37' — and starts typing a response.

As the conversation goes back and forth, notifications from men inviting me to get in touch appear so fast that the list runs off the screen. We've been online for less than three minutes.

Dan continues to type responses in purposely ungrammatical teenage jargon. It takes just 11 lines of dialogue for anonman_37 to ask louiseis14: "not seeing boyfriend today?".

"Not got one" is my answer.

I'm gasping. It's pretty obvious where things are going.

Dan logs out quickly: he doesn't want to get into a conversation which might lead to a crime being committed. This would require his team to mobilise an instant response, something officers here do regularly, but not typically with a journalist watching proceedings.

The internet has provided new opportunities for paedophiles to prey on children, and the demonstration Dan's just given of just how many are waiting online to engage with young girls is alarming. "It's either the biggest library in the world or the biggest porn shop in the world," he says.

As one of 60 investigators working specifically on online paedophile crime at the Met, Dan knows better than most the ease with which (mostly) men can access and groom minors on the internet. He's also engaged in intimate online interactions with some of the most dangerous child sex offenders operating in the London area today.

Since the Sex Offences Act (2002), which criminalised grooming via the internet, there has been a growing realisation in the Met that it would have to change the way it operates: to successfully pursue and prosecute the growing communities of paedophiles who commit sex crimes online, it would have to penetrate the various 'meeting places' made possible by the explosion in social networking sites. Crimes committed on these sites include causing a child to engage in sexual activity, engaging in sexual activity in the presence of a child online, arranging or facilitating the commission of a child sexual offence, and meeting a child following sexual grooming online.

Waiting until children are taken into care to investigate sex crimes is no longer an option when offenders are targeting minors in such an organised manner. Police now use proactive targeting using intelligence from a range of sources. To get better at building cases against the most dangerous online perpetrators, the unit's officers, overseen by detective superintendent Reg Hooke, have made it their mission to gain a detailed understanding of how offenders operate within support networks of fellow paedophiles.

To help them, Elena Martellozzo, a criminologist at Middlesex University, has been given close access to the work of the unit and the chance to observe the way that paedophiles interact online with officers assuming the identities of both vulnerable children and predatory paedophiles.

Her analysis of a single recent investigation that led to 27 arrests of men who set up, and then travelled to meetings with "children" forms the basis of a new training course that, she says, aims to extend undercover officers' understanding of the various modus operandi used by sex offenders who primarily target young children on the net.

Called "Dancing with the Devil, investigating online child abusers", the training examines a range of perpetrator profiles and looks at how well the police currently distinguish between different types of online predator.

Martellozzo looked at their profiles "from super confident and open about their tastes to very cautious" in their online descriptions — the hope is that her training will offer police an increasingly sophisticated understanding of paedophiles' online behaviours and allow covert investigators to more quickly establish who are the fantasists and who the most dangerous predators.

This training, Hooke says, is also helping his officers in policing such crimes.

He knows full well that proactively targeting and engaging in conversations with online sex offenders holds some risks. There are moments when the "legally audacious culture" he is developing in this unit — required if officers are to engage believably in online conversations — takes his team very close to the legal line. Clearly, they are not allowed to act as agent provocateurs or encourage someone to commit a crime that they otherwise wouldn't.

It takes considerable support from management before officers feel able to throw off the risk averse culture that Hooke acknowledges can hold investigations back. But the approach is working: weekly, if not more often, he confirms, people are being arrested, prosecuted and sentenced for online sex crimes against minors in chatrooms, on social networking sites and via instant messenger. Prosecutions have been supported by chatlogs of officers acting as vulnerable children, and careful recording of all information proffered willingly by the offenders themselves.

The men — and it is mostly men — who offend in this way come from all walks of life, Martellozzo explains in her book Online Child Sexual Abuse: Grooming, Policing and Child Protection in a Multi-Media World. Her analysis of those arrested in the operation described above showed that half were married or in relationships, most had no previous convictions for sex offences, and the vast majority had child abuse imagery on their computer (half had level five imagery — the most extreme) sufficient to have been charged on that basis alone. The majority had their own children, who did not disclose abuse when interviewed.

In their interactions with undercover investigators, half of the men arrested texted the 'victim'. Two-thirds exposed themselves on a webcam or in a photo, and the same proportion actually set up a rendezvous and travelled to meet the 'child'.

When caught, explains Martellozzo, "they say things like 'it was just a fantasy' but you find them with lubricants and toys — what I found very interesting was to witness the forcefulness of their online interactions, [and contrast that] with their subsequent denials in interviews."

Protecting children online is expensive both in police hours and, in a fast-moving digital world, in the regular upgrades to the kit required to stay credible to the paedophiles they interact with. "When budgets are tight, then this proactive covert type of operation is in the balance," says Hooke. His bosses, however, have indicated that they remain committed to funding the unit: Hooke is clear that the long-term value to society will be worth the money.

"Take an abused child and look at the long-term cost to health, education, the justice system and lost work opportunities for the rest of their lives," he says. "In economic terms, this work makes complete sense."

It would be so much better if the police did their job but they don't.Just happy to go after ageing celebs instead of politicians and gangs systematically raping vulnerable girls.

So the police should spend their time on over 18 dating websites luring lonely men instead of going after "gangs systematically raping vulnerable girls"? That logic is a bit twisted is it not?

The only reason he secured so many convictions was because he bullied the culprits into admissions. Those who put up a fight/defence, didn't get convictions. There's a 3 part video on his facebook with a young Asian lad. He runs rings around this Stinson geezer and doesn't end up with any conviction. In fact he told his story to the Guardian.

True enough Hamster, the men could have said they believed it was a form of role play. There is no crime on what roles adults play in the bedroom. It was an over 18 dating website, they could easily have stated they where meeting an adult who was fecked up in the head, no crime in that i believe.

link to the asian one?

It's on his facebook page. Don't want to link to it and give Stinson publicity.

This guy though didn't send pics only a video of him waving at the camera. He claimed he was just a friendly chap wanting to meet and have a chat with the girl, although there was sex talk in the chat logs.

i had a read of the chat of the logs on his facebook of i think george , hunter set hi up to meet a 15 year old boy , it was one where i think hunter forced the meet , as the guy said a few times your only 15 and kept asking him to meet

the guy said he couldnt meet him as he was going home for his tea , stinson saidd he would get him something to eat , so he was forcing the meet on him a bit

naydam    02 Oct 14 22:38 
Apparently the site is only open to over 18s. Therefore anybody posting on the site is over 18.

The Facebook age limit is supposed to be 16.
My eldest grand-daughter has an account so she can chat to her old schoolmates in London as they live a fair way apart now.
There are no checks on the date of birth you enter.
She's 11.

^^^^ bad grand-parenting.

Better bait required for fishing.

So what's the intelligent solution to the exploitation of innocent children?

CMAT. Sorry. I had the impression that this 'Hunter' chap was dangling his worm in adult-only pools.

The Chaser. Sounds like the guy was bribed by a bacon butty! Understandable, I suppose!

You know full well that the police aren't doing their job regarding these child crimes. And if you feel they are shame on you.

Stop trying to protect these perverts.

A cynic might say that half the problem seems to lie with the people offering certain activities to adults on an adult chat-room.
I must confess that I know nothing of 'Facebook' and I am therefore unable to comment on that. To be honest, I don't really know anything about 'chat-rooms' in general.

find a chat forum, sign in with a pic of a youngish girl, type nothing and see how long it takes for you to realise what sort of people inhabit cyber world

Surely, my name and age would indicate that I am neither young or female.

*nor*

Do people think its ok for the victim who has had a mans d1k up them , and go thru life with a zest or do you think they feel depressed and cant get the trauma out of their mind ?

this silly debate but can go on forever , imo there is only 1 answer .

---kick them to fykin death ----

END OF STORY

Well, that's certainly solved the problem!

ZEALOT
ZEALOT 03 Oct 14 19:44 Joined: 15 Sep 09 | Topic/replies: 6,182 | Blogger: ZEALOT's blog
Do people think its ok for the victim who has had a mans d1k up them , and go thru life with a zest or do you think they feel depressed and cant get the trauma out of their mind ?

this silly debate but can go on forever , imo there is only 1 answer .

---kick them to fykin death ----

END OF STORY

lol have you heard what teenage girls talk about? they are sex obsessed.

a sexually mature female who enjoys sex and knows her own mind?

how can such a thing be possible?

must keep these silly immature females protected and in their place ...

Since when are children sexually mature?

Kelly your posts are very disturbing to say the least.

Kelly your posts are very disturbing to say the least.

he/she is probably pi$$ed like most of the forum is at this time of night!!

Kelly has a bit of a point, though. It would certainly help to prevent this sort of thing if they stopped inviting the paedos to come round when their parents are out. In fact, if they stopped inviting them round at all.

Kelly really doesn't have a bit of a point - re reading this thread Kelly is at the very least a warped individual

Charwell ... You're walking down the street you see an absolutely stunning girl , she looks around 18 , your draw drops and you feel intense overwhelming attraction... Except actually she's only 14 and you didn't really feel anything at all because you're omnipotent and knew she was underage ... WALOFS

Welcome to Paedogeddon!!!

Kelly do you find sexually mature boys attractive (irrespective of age)?

Surely the best thing is that these people now know they could be placed on the internet and exposed. Friends, neighbours and relatives will know about it and can protect their own children.

This is worse than a one year suspended sentence quietly done. If copycat groups start all round the country more of these people will be exposed.

Hmmm. I might have been a little hasty in my assessment...........