Ringside Special - Nigel Benn

I loved him Roger. Where he maybe fell 1-2% short of the really top guys in terms of class, he made up for that in sheer aggression and a genuine love of fighting. Anybody who steps through the ropes has my respect, because of the courage that undoubtedly takes, but some elevate themselves above that with their absolute refusal to accept defeat.
There is a moment in R1 of the Benn/McClellan fight where McClellan batters Benn through the ropes and out of the ring, landing at least three massive shots on Benns head as he is unable to protect himself. 99% of boxers would've stayed put, as clearly a terrible beating was waiting inside. When Benn jumps up and clambers back in there is a moment where he takes a breath and you can almost see the resolution writ on his face, as if he says to himself, "OK, it's gonna be that type of night".
The tragic consequences of the fight should take nothing away from what Benn achieved that night, it was almost super-human. Fighting the way that he did, it's miraculous that he has got out of the game intact.

The heart was unbelievable. They asked him if the McClellan fight was his best performance ever and he said that with the consequences of the fight he wouldn't ever be able to say that - kind of how I feel. Had McClellan walked away afterwards it would have been shown again and again and always be mentioned as one of the great fights.

Remember him being shoved back through the ropes in round 1 by those at ringside and assuming it was over. Don't think anyone else could have turned it around.

Loved the fights with Eubank too and the genuine hatred they had for each other - none of the mock 'hold me back, hold me back' at the press conferences now to sell tickets and PPV sales and then the two guys hug like brothers at the end. They really disliked each other. Don't think there has ever been a better era for watching boxing. The top guys always looked for each other rather than dodging each other, they seemed to fight more often and it was all on terrestrial tv so everyone could enjoy it.

Also very clear from the Benn and Eubank specials the warmth and love they both feel for Michael Watson.

Yeah, Eubank saying that he didn't hate Benn and that it was all just business, when he clearly did, just wound Benn up more. I agree a golden era in the UK, Hamed was fighting around then too and he was never less than entertaining.
The shame of Watson, aside the obvious, is that he would probably have wound up being the best of the three, reminded me of Tommy Hearns. His terrible injuries also potentially robbed us of the best of Eubank, as I felt that Eubank became content to try and outclass his opponents thereafter and didn't really look like he wanted to hurt anyone.

Yeah, Eubank lost his killer instinct (sorry, inappropriate wording) after the Watson fight. Ended up going the distance with, and losing to, guys not fit to lace his boots. Remember him losing to Collins who he would never have lost to pre-Watson. He had Collins down and hurt and just didn't have the drive to finish him.

Both Benn and Eubank, for all their bravado and unwavering self belief, both said without hesitation that Watson was better than them.

The Benn/McClellan fight was the most brutal I've ever seen. How Benn got up in that first round I'll never know. Maybe it was karma what happened to McClellan.

I would also add that Benn conveniently collapsed after the fight and avoided being drug tested. He was a fantastic fighter to watch though. Loved it when he went to America and destroyed Doug DeWitt and Iran Barkley.

Jimmy Tibbs did an interview with Colin Murray on TalkSport on Tuesday and he described from his perspective what it was like at the end of the Eubank v Watson fight.

He said he almost had a go at the referee for stopping Watson as he thought he was still okay - until he collapsed in his arms.
It took 7 minutes before the doctor got into the ring and then the ambulance went to the wrong hospital before arriving at Barts.
Just how much did all that lost time cost Michael Watson, one wonders?

Tibbs now trains Billy Joe Saunders and there's a strong possibility that he'll meet Eubank Jr some time in the near future. As Murray said, that will be a very strange night for both Tibbs and Chris when they face each other in opposite corners again.

You can hear the Tibbs interview here, if anyone's interested. It lasts for about 27 minutes and the Watson piece starts at 19.50:

http://talksport.com/colin-murray-and-friends-tuesday-august-19-140819108715


Agree with what's already been said about that eara being a fantastic time for boxing - and all on terrestrial tv.

*era

Geesyerdosh Joined: 28 Jul 06
Replies: 8128 22 Aug 14 13:41   
The Benn/McClellan fight was the most brutal I've ever seen. How Benn got up in that first round I'll never know. Maybe it was karma what happened to McClellan.


Wtf?

McClellan was a sick so and so. Nasty piece of work.

You're a sick so and so.

Geesyerdosh Joined: 28 Jul 06
Replies: 8128 22 Aug 14 13:41   
The Benn/McClellan fight was the most brutal I've ever seen. How Benn got up in that first round I'll never know.

Watch the fight again and tell me which KO punch Benn did miraculously well to recover from.

Why am I a sick so and so?

Anyone who for kicks tapes a labradors mouth up then sets his pitbull on it and times with a stopwatch how quickly it can kill the dog is a siick baastard imo.

Really?? ^^

* By really I mean did he actually do that?

According to an article in the Observer, McClellan participated in dog fights.[10][11] McClellan's trainer & family admitted that McClellan was involved with fighting pitbulls, and on one occasion had used tape to bind the jaws of a Labrador shut before allowing his pet pitbull "Deuce" to kill it.



What goes around....

Scumbag.

It wasn't the only time he done it, he believed his dogs needed to kill easy meat regularly before facing proper fights. He had loads of pitbulls for fighting. Once he had one that lost a fight and was bleeding, he pulls out his gun and says I don't need no dog that can't fight and put a bullet in it.

Like I said, nasty piece of work.

Mikael D'Haguenet   22 Aug 14 15:25 
Watch the fight again and tell me which KO punch Benn did miraculously well to recover from.

Erm...the barrage that put Benn through the ropes and onto those sitting at ringside.

And yes it was widely known that McClellan was a very nasty piece of work. Whether you choose to take the view that he deserves what came to him is another matter, but those who do think it do so with some valid reasoning.

Anyways, back to boxing. Different era's I know, but how would the likes of Benn, Eubank and Watson coped with the likes of La Motta in the forties. You can only punch for so long before the 'Bull' reacts....

Having said that it's all about opinions and I'm 99% certain that Sugar Ray Robinson would have hammered the above three given his class. And he wouldn't have needed a year's break in between. Two months maximum and he would have made short work of all three.

As stated it's all about opinions, but there has never been a better middleweight than Robinson.

The records don't tell lies...

Well yes, Robinson is widely accepted to be the greatest middleweight of all time, which I don't think anyone would claim for the three UK fighters. Whether he would have hammered them I don't know. We do know that Benn had incredible heart and Eubanks resilience is often under-rated, I doubt any fighter would have made 'short work' of either man. But yes, he would probably have beaten them, on a going day.
I would most like to have seen them dropped into the great 80's era. Can you imagine Benn V Hagler? That would be a dream match up As would Eubank V Leonard (although one could expect a lot of posturing in that one!).
If we are talking era's I would also like to have seem how Calzaghe would've got on had he been born 10 years earlier. I suspect he would've struggled, but the thing about Calzaghe is that he was like Sea The Stars, he only ever did enough, he was certainly never 'bottomed'. Maybe he would've been the best of them?

Robinson fought 114 times before his first defeat (against La Motta) Not every fight but in those days you had to go FIFTEEN rounds, not the mickey mouse twelve we have today.

Robinson was Ali's idol and inspiration, hence he called him the greatest pound for pound fighter ever to grace this planet.


Robinson liked the high life, and although he lost his 'crown' five times he always came back and retained it.

As one commentator put it....

'He's the only boxer that I've seen who could through a knockout punch...going backwards'.

* I forgot to add that Robinson faced La Motta Five times. (winning four) The reason? Every other boxer was scared to go near them.

Actually he lost for the first time in his 41st fight against La Motta. He fought ten round matches until becoming champ in his 75th fight (he didn't get a shot until then as he wasn't 'owned' by the right people - although he had beaten world champions in non-title fights), as that was the distance of non-title fights. In fact only 20 of his 200 fights were scheduled for 15 rounds.

His record was remarkable though, he didn't lose again for 90 fights after LaMotta, a run that saw him win both Welterweight and Middleweight titles, when he was beaten famously by Randolph Turpin (he won the rematch). In fact only when going up again in weight to Light-Heavy, was he really vulnerable. He shouldn't really have fought after 1960, 13 of his 19 losses coming in those five years, but as many fighters of the time came to realise, the money doesn't last forever.

He actually fought LaMotta six times, but that wasn't unusual for the era, they kept busy and there are only so many quality guys around to fight. He also fought Gene Fullmer 4 times and Basillio and Olsen 3 each, he fought many fighters more than once. Great though he was, I don't think 'fear' had that much to with it, he managed to find 194 other opponents to get in the ring with

(he won the rematch).

Yes, he was shrewd enough to have a rematch within sixty days written in the contract if he got beat. Turpin beat him fair and square, although it was rumoured that Robinson had too many late Parisian nights.


The 114 I quoted may have included his amateur fights.

Basillio


I have his championship fight on DVD against Basillio. Utterly brutal.

I should add that I am not using google for any of my posts.

Oh yeah, he liked to get his revenge asap. He famously avenged his only defeat by La Motta just three weeks later. What is less well known is that he managed to squeeze a tough 10 rounder in between those two fights, winning a 10R split decision in the Garden over Jackie Wilson (not the singer!) the week before the rematch!
I don't know how they did it, not just physically, but in terms of promotion - these were big fights.

You lie, I've googled 'Has stewarty b got Robinson V Basillio on DVD', it said "Yes, it was brutal".

They were different class to what you watch nowadays DO.

Roger The Butler Joined: 20 Aug 02
Replies: 2261 22 Aug 14 16:23   

Erm...the barrage that put Benn through the ropes and onto those sitting at ringside.

And yes it was widely known that McClellan was a very nasty piece of work. Whether you choose to take the view that he deserves what came to him is another matter, but those who do think it do so with some valid reasoning.

You mean the flurry of punches that hit him on top of the head?

As for the 'valid reasoning', it reminds me of Glenn Hoddle's views on disability. I'm fairly confident you don't agree with Hoddle, so why would you think differently in McClellan's case?

Presumably we're all hoping Michael Vick gets paralysed soon...

Actually DO, I tell a small porkie. I have it on a video. I need to get it transferred sometime.

Mik, it's pretty much accepted that McClellan was a vile and cruel man, like Tyson he spoke of wanting to 'kill' opponents. Whether he deserved what he got, I don't agree, but I'm certainly not going to argue with anybody who takes that view. And I doubt that had he inflicted the same injuries on Benn that he would've been as affected by the experience.

BTW, I'm with Roger, the three hard shots to Benn's unprotected head as he sat on the bottom rope already 'gone', would've finished the vast majority of fighters. I'm surprised you can't see that.

Add in the fact that Benn was known as chinny and McClellan was regarded as one of the hardest punchers in the world.

Randy Turpin

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2011/08/famous-ring-wars-sugar-ray-robinson-vs-r...

Their was a Reputation series on BBC2 about ten years ago. One was called 'Sugar Ray Robinson an America Legend'.


If it's ever repeated I would advise any boxing to watch it. Literally jaw dropping. (pardon the pun) Again it's pranged on a video here.

*fan

Desmond Orchard Joined: 28 Jun 04
Replies: 2286 22 Aug 14 17:40   
Mik, it's pretty much accepted that McClellan was a vile and cruel man, like Tyson he spoke of wanting to 'kill' opponents. Whether he deserved what he got, I don't agree, but I'm certainly not going to argue with anybody who takes that view. And I doubt that had he inflicted the same injuries on Benn that he would've been as affected by the experience.

BTW, I'm with Roger, the three hard shots to Benn's unprotected head as he sat on the bottom rope already 'gone', would've finished the vast majority of fighters. I'm surprised you can't see that. 

Yet Geesyerdosh correctly describes Benn as being 'chinny'. I guess the fact that McClellan didn't hit him on the chin helped.

Anyone who thinks McClellan got what he deserved is as vile as him imo.

Actually, to argue the semantics, McClellan did pretty much 'win' the fight at that point as the Ref made a right pigs ear of the count. He also inexplicably kept pushing McClellan away as he looked to deliver the coup de gras, but strange things happen in the ring and Benn surviving that round resulted in an epic.

I agree. It was a great fight. McClellan may be vile but he showed tremendous courage fighting on for 5 or 6 rounds after the glancing head that left him how he is now.

What is your problem Mik? If you don't rate Benn then fair enough, say it. Actually Benn being 'chinny' (not entirely my view but he did hit the deck more often than your multiple world champion, more to with his all action style I would suggest) has nothing to do with his heart, if anything it accentuates his determination to not be beaten.

My view is that to be ambivalent to a person/animals well-being based upon a commonly held view of that person/animal is one thing. To actively wish and participate in causing harm to another person/animal in the pursuit of personal gratification, is altogether a different thing. However, your opinion of McClellan and his detractors respective levels of vileness is your right.

Well you make it sound like I'm a fan of dog fighting so that'd be a problem.

At no point have I had a pop at Benn so I've no idea where you get that from. I was cheering harder than Frank Bruno that night! I do have a problem with people who apparently take pleasure out of McClellan's plight.

Saying that it might of been karma what happened to McClellan is hardly taking pleasure in his plight.

You are seeing things that aren't there.

Where have I suggested that you're a fan of dog fighting?

Your exact words were, "Anyone who thinks McClellan got what he deserved is as vile as him imo."

I would argue otherwise, McClellan took pleasure in encouraging his pitbull to rip to shreds a labrador with it's mouth taped shut. I don't believe anyone deserves his fate, I'm not that 'Old Testament', but I can see why people might feel that way and I certainly wouldn't rank that as being anywhere near as vile as his actions.

you are right Desmond.

I may have been a little OTT but more than one person has suggested that they 'understand' if other people thinkhe got what he deserved. He deserved to be sent to prison, not being turned into a cabbage.

I agree and I also accept that you recognise what an 'orrible kaant he was.

Anyway, I have third party approval and on an internet forum it don't get no better than that. I'm outta here

What McLellan did to that dog makes lessens the sympathy. I guess karma got him...

Not many things in life are as pleasurable as debating boxing with fellow afficionados. Some interesting views. Only my opinion but:

Robinson the best middleweight ever? Not in my view. He was the best welter in my view and probably the best pound for pound ever but he had a relatively short and not that great 9comparatively) a record as a middleweight. You couldn't really compare his record or longevity at middle with that of guys like Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon. There are early 20th century guys like Grebb and Ketchel who were also fine fighters.

Watson can't be discussed without empathy for his condition. He was a very good British level fighter as were Eubank and Benn. I backed him big to beat Benn because Benn was too gung ho at the time and Watson too smart for him but his level was just below the best middles/supers at the time as were Benn and Eubank.

Benn wasn't chinny. He tended to gas himself because he put so much effort into every punch. Histamina could be a problem but certainly not his chin.

Robinson the best middleweight ever? Not in my view.


Sorry EO, but that is total bullsh!t. He was the best fighter ever, pound for pound. Even Sugar Ray Leonard and Ali said so. I would hazard a guess they are more qualified than you or me to comment.

Not necessarily. Greats in any sport don't have a divine right to have superior wisdom in assessing the careers of others often in different generations. They made a living getting hit on the head. If they could have been rocket scientists or philosophers they may have chosen different careers. Havng said that remember what they said. They said he was pound for pound the best. Do you understand what this means? If you did you wouldn't have made the point you did.

Even so we'll let that one go because I agree with their view but remember being pound for pound rated the best hasn't nearly as much to do with his middleweight career as it does his welter career where he fought the majority of his fights and held the title unbroken for longer than the middle title. Don't get me wrong he was also a great middle. One of very few fighters who you can make a case for their record being amongst the top 5 in two different divisions.

What you need to do if you want to seriously debate such an issue and not get embarrassed is to go and have a look at his record at welter. Then go and have a look at his career as a middle. Then come back and we can agree I was right. You'll find all the info you need on boxrec.

What you don't get there or what you don't understand I can fill in the rest for you.

He didn't really come to prominence until he moved up to middleweight. It was only then that he fought some of the greats, (too many to mention) and what other boxer has won and then lost their title only for this to happen FIVE times. NOBODY in the history of boxing has ever achieved this feat.

True, he was a great welterweight, but he showed his true class fighting 'proper' fighters when moving up to middleweight.


You say he wasn't the best ever middleweight. Please enlighten me to your choice of who was please. And don't say Superman.

Following the Jimmy Tibbs interview on Talksport I came across this little snippet while looking into the gang war between the Tibbs and Nicholls families.

www.bernardomahoney.com/rrmurders/documents/informant01.shtml

Your knowledge is wafer thin stewarty.

He fought plenty of greats before he ever moved up to middle. You just don't know it because of this wafer thin knowledge. He prominence was well known throughout the 40's by beating these great fighters, often beating far heavier opponents, being the welter champ from 46 and continuing to fight great and future great welters. You just don't know it bcause of this wafer thin knowledge. His record as a welter is virtually unparalled in boxing history in any division. You just don't know this because of your wafer thin knowledge. You imply he didn't fight "proper" fighters till he moved up to middle. Guess what? Yep. Wafer thin. Finally you don't win the world title five times unless you first keep losing it. That doesn't get a fighter extra points. Winning it and keeping it is what builds a fighters legacy.

Robinson in beating some great middles can be classed as having a great middle career.No argument there. The point is that he didn't build a middle legacy through holding the title for any period of time without losing it and in losing it he showed he was one of several great middles of the time.

So you have to pay your money and take your choice. Did he establish his greatness more by being an unparalleled welter proving himself the best of all time with a record few could claim to match or did he do so winning and losing regularly against the better middles of the time later in his career?

I know what I think and my knowledge isn't wafer thin.

You still haven't answered my question EO.

Of course, maybe you can't come up with an answer because your vote would be so close it would be wafer thin?

The point is that he didn't build a middle legacy through holding the title for any period of time without losing it and in losing it he showed he was one of several great middles of the time.



This is the sentence that blows your theory out of the water imo. Can you name one other middleweight who performed this task even once?

Robinson liked the high life, hence his losing the title but still having the skill and ability to bounce back at his leisure. (five times)

At his leisure. You're probably one of those guys with a Tyson duvet who thinks he only lost to Douglas because his mind wasn't on the job.

I've already given you three middleweights who established better legacies than Robinson did at middle. I'll remind you: Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon.

I've already given you three middleweights who established better legacies than Robinson did at middle. I'll remind you: Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon.



Now, let's get this clear. You are saying that these three boxers were better than Robinson?

You also laugh at the words 'at his leisure'. Tell me your alternative theory please? As nobody else in the history of boxing has accomplished this feat. Don't be shy, enlighten me.

I'm not sure if it is possible to enlighten you but I'll give it a go. Nope. I'm saying they had better careers as middleweights than Robinson. Robinson was a welter who went up to middle in the 50's after he'd had about 100 fights. Which part of that are you finding difficult?

My alternative theory is that he proved as a welter that he was nigh on invincible despite fighting as I say near 100 fights. When he fought at middle he won fights and lost some. That is a statistical fact. He didn't either win or lose "at his leisure". Sometimes he was the inferior fighter on the night. This wasn't the case at welter which is why I give him the nod over fighters like Armstrong for best welter. Even when he fought La Motta in theory at welter he used to give away up to a stone in weight. What he did become good at later in his career was assessing a fighters weaknesses and exploiting them in return matches which was one of the reasons why despite having lots of miles on the clock he was able to take the title in rematches against fighters who had previously beaten him.

Feel free to seek further enlightenment.

You say he wasn't the best ever middleweight. Please enlighten me to your choice of who was please. And don't say Superman.


Once again you refuse to answer my question. And please, keep your sarcasm for your good friend 'melly'.


Once you answer what is a relatively simple question, let's let the thread go.

You know who 'melly' is, don't you?

He's not Jimmy Tibbs, I know that much.

I sure do.

I don't know who the best ever middle was. It's a matter of opinion and as for pound for pound I find it difficult to answer. I'm clear in my mind because of the reasons I've given that Robinson wasn't because of his record and the fact that he went to middle later in his career. I have given you a view though. In my time watching boxing Monzon was the best of the 70's, Hagler the best of the 80's and Hopkins the best of a period straddling the late 90's and early part of this century. Throw into that mix that there was a time when Roy Jones was untouchable and you can see why it becomes a very difficult question to answer.

But let's look at it another way and ask if you got each of them on their absolute best night who would emerge victorious then you have a very interesting question. I've already shown why Robinson's record means you can't class him as the best middle but on his very best night he's going to give any middle from history merry hell. Which is another reason why so many pick him pound for pound because of his record at welter.

Off the top of my head and given Robnison's record and who he struggled with I'd say a Robinson versus Hagler fight would be a classic and an even money match up.

I don't know who the best ever middle was.


Christ, it only took four hours to get a reply!



Off the top of my head and given Robnison's record and who he struggled with I'd say a Robinson versus Hagler fight would be a classic and an even money match up


Here's how I would price up....

1/50 Robinson, 14/1 the draw, 66/1 Hagler.


Even your best pal 'melly' would take the 1/50, as it's a better rate than the banks give you.

Having said that, you keep dreaming, and if you ever come up with a name of substance I will donate one thousand pounds sterling to a charity of your choice. (proofed by Royal Mail on here)

You are entitled to your opinion. How would you price up a Hagler versus Turpin fight?

Having said that, you keep dreaming, and if you ever come up with a name of substance I will donate one thousand pounds sterling to a charity of your choice. (proofed by Royal Mail on here)

Sorry I've only just read that part of your comical post. Bravo sir. You have a strange but oddly enticing sense of humour because you're certainly the first person I've ever witnessed suggesting that Monzon, Hagler and Hopkins are not names of substance. I'm guessing with some degree of certainty that you are either a very young man or someone who has no more than a passing interest in boxing. In fact. Give me a moment to get my breath and then:



Seriously. Bravo.

The Smiley faces don't become you EO. Just give me one name and I will have the BF manager post on this thread that I kept to

my word.



You are entitled to your opinion. How would you price up a Hagler versus Turpin fight?

Don't know what went wrong there, anyways, in answer to your question.....


You are entitled to your opinion. How would you price up a Hagler versus Turpin fight?


1/20 Hagler, 16s the draw, 40s Turpin....who sadly took his own life.

btw EO, I don't know why you pretend to be a genius at this game. I can only say that since the start of this thread, I have never used google once. Unlike yourself...

You may not have used google but you should have tried using your brain and you wouldn't have got so many facts wrong.

I'm still waiting for a definitive answer as to who was better at Robinson at middleweight.


As to your comment.......



You may not have used google but you should have tried using your brain and you wouldn't have got so many facts wrong.



I think it would be good for your soul to get back to your true nemesis.....the one and only 'melly'.

You're wasting your time trying to educate me about boxing.


As for getting my facts wrong, that truly made me chuckle.



If they were facts, how can they be wrong???? Roffle.

Because to you they seemed to be objective facts but unfortunately in the real world they were easily disprovable not by opinion but by reference to history. Remind us how many fights Robinson had before his first defeat?

I'm still waiting for a definitive answer as to who was better at Robinson at middleweight.............You're wasting your time trying to educate me about boxing.

I lump these together because the first illutrates why the second is correct. I would be wasting my time trying to educate you about boxing. You know nothing and want to keep it that way and this was proven by the first question. There is no definitive answer. Who was better begs opinion. The point is that you came into this discussion citing the record books. I merely suggested you go and read them and discover the fighters I've mentioned and discovered their records. Who knows who was the best middle? I know who had the better records as middleweights because I gave them to you.

Anytime you do want to be educated just whistle. You do know how to whistle don't you?

think stewarty and EO cd go the distance

Only if I carried him.

Well, I can only get you to commit yourself so far. tbf you haven't denied that Robinson was the best ever middleweight that has graced the planet. Whereas, I know for a fact that he was.


You mentioned Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon. do you think that any of these three could have lost their title, won it back, lost it again, won it back, lost it again, won it back, lost it again, won it back, lost it again and win it back? No chance.

Here endeth the lesson, although you tried your best even though you've been on the ropes most of the time.

Hagler 66/1 - don't be silly.

Comparing eras is fraught with danger. Boxing during Robinsons era was a different game. They fought more and politics was rife. Robinson never had the stiff competition of the Hagler/Leonard/Duran/Hearns/Antifermo/Mugabi era. His main foe was La Motta who lost a lot of fights to very ordinary fighters. And I love La Motta, but he wouldn't get clos to Marvellous Marvin.

Robinson is an undoubted great, one of the best of all time. But to say he was peerless is crazy.

Here's a wee google to back up my theory...




Robinson made his professional debut on October 4, 1940, winning via second-round knockout over Joe Echevarria.[11] Robinson fought five more times in 1940, winning each time, with four wins coming by way of knockout.[11] In 1941, he defeated world champion Sammy Angott, future champion Marty Servo and former champion Fritzie Zivic. The Robinson-Angott fight was held above the lightweight limit, since Angott did not want to risk losing his lightweight title. Robinson defeated Zivic in front of 20,551 at Madison Square Garden—one of the largest crowds in the arena to that date.[12] Robinson won the first five rounds according to The New York Times Joseph C. Nichols, before Zivic came back to land several punches to Robinson's head in the sixth and seventh rounds.[12] Robinson controlled the next two rounds, and had Zivic wobbly in the ninth. After a close tenth round, Robinson was announced as the winner on all three scorecards.[12]

In 1942, Robinson knocked out Zivic in the tenth round in a January rematch.[11] The knockout loss was only the second of Zivic's career in more than 150 fights.[13] Robinson knocked him down in the ninth and tenth rounds before the referee stopped the fight. Zivic and his corner protested the stoppage; James P. Dawson of The New York Times stated "[t]hey were criticizing a humane act. The battle had been a slaughter, for want of a more delicate word."[13] Robinson then won four consecutive bouts by knockout, before defeating Servo in a controversial split decision in their May rematch.[11] After winning three more fights, Robinson faced Jake LaMotta, who would become one of his more prominent rivals, for the first time in October.[11] He defeated LaMotta via unanimous decision. Robinson weighed 145 lb (66 kg) compared to 157.5 for LaMotta, but he was able to control the fight from the outside for the entire bout, and actually landed the harder punches during the fight.[14] Robinson then won four more fights, including two against Izzy Jannazzo, from October 19 to December 14.[11] For his performances, Robinson was named "Fighter of the Year". He finished 1942 with a total of 14 wins and no losses.[11]

Robinson built a record of 40–0 before losing for the first time to LaMotta in a 10 round re-match.[11][15] LaMotta, who had a 16 lb (7.3 kg) weight advantage over Robinson, knocked Robinson out of the ring in the eighth round, and won the fight by decision.[11] The fight took place in Robinson's former home town of Detroit, and attracted a record crowd.[15] After being controlled by Robinson in the early portions of the fight, LaMotta came back to take control in the later rounds.[15] After winning the third LaMotta fight less than three weeks later,[11] Robinson then defeated his childhood idol: former champion Henry Armstrong. Robinson only fought Armstrong because Armstrong was in need of money. By now Armstrong was an old fighter, and Robinson later stated that he carried Armstrong.

On February 27, 1943, Robinson was inducted into the United States Army, where he was again referred to as Walker Smith.[16] Robinson had a short 15 month military career. Robinson served with Joe Louis, and the pair went on tours where they performed exhibition bouts in front of US troops. Robinson got into trouble several times while in the military. He argued with superiors who he felt were discriminatory against him, and refused to fight exhibitions when he was told African American soldiers were not allowed to watch them.[8][17] In late March, 1944, Robinson was stationed at Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, waiting to ship out to Europe, where he was scheduled to perform more exhibition matches. But on March 29, Robinson disappeared from his barracks. When he woke up on April 5 in Fort Jay Hospital on Governor's Island, he had missed his sailing for Europe and was under suspicion of deserting. He himself reported falling down the stairs in his barracks on the 29th, but said that he had complete amnesia, and he could not remember any events from that moment until the 5th. According to his file, a stranger had found him in the street on 1 April and helped him to a hospital. In his examination report, a doctor at Fort Jay concluded that Robinson's version of events was sincere.[18] He was examined by military authorities, who claimed he suffered from a mental deficiency.[19] Robinson was granted an honorable discharge on June 3, 1944. He later wrote that unfair press coverage of the incident had "branded" him as a "deserter".[20] Robinson maintained his close friendship with Louis from their time in military service, and the two went into business together after the war. They planned to start a liquor distribution business in New York City, but were denied a license due to their race.[21]

Besides the loss in the LaMotta rematch, the only other mark on Robinson's record during this period was a 10 round draw against Jose Basora in 1945.[11]

Welterweight Champion[edit]

By 1946, Robinson had fought 75 fights to a 73–1–1 record,[11] and beaten every top contender in the welterweight division. However, he refused to cooperate with the Mafia, which controlled much of boxing at the time, and was denied a chance to fight for the welterweight championship.[22] Robinson was finally given a chance to win a title against Tommy Bell on December 20, 1946.[11] Robinson had already beaten Bell once via decision in 1945. The two fought for the title vacated by Servo, who had himself lost twice to Robinson in non-title bouts. In the fight, Robinson, who only a month before had been involved in a 10 round brawl with Artie Levine, was knocked down by Bell.[11] The fight was called a "war," but Robinson was able to pull out a close 15 round decision, winning the vacant welterweight title.

In June 1947, after four non-title bouts, Robinson was scheduled to defend his title for the first time in a bout against Jimmy Doyle.[11] Robinson initially backed out of the fight because he had a dream that he was going to kill Doyle. A priest and a minister convinced him to fight. Sadly, his dream proved true.[23][24] On June 25, 1947 Robinson dominated Doyle and scored a decisive knockout in the eighth round that knocked Doyle unconscious and resulted in Doyle's death later that night.[25] Robinson said that the impact of Doyle's death was "very trying". [A]

After his death, criminal charges were threatened against Robinson in Cleveland, up to and including manslaughter, though none actually materialized. Before that fight, Robinson had a dream that he was going to accidentally kill Doyle in the ring. As a result, he decided to pull out of the fight. Doyle only agreed to fight in order to use the money to buy his mother a house. Robinson gave Doyle's mother money from his next four bouts so she could purchase herself a home, fulfilling her sons intention.[26][27]

In 1948, Robinson fought five times, but only one bout was a title defense. Among the fighters he defeated in those non-title bouts was future world champion Kid Gavilan in a close, controversial 10 round fight. Gavilan hurt Robinson several times in the fight, but Robinson controlled the final rounds with a series of jabs and left hooks.[28] In 1949, he boxed 16 times, but again only defended his title once. In that title fight, a rematch with Gavilan, Robinson again won via decision. The first half of the bout was very close, but Robinson took control in the second half. Gavilan would have to wait two more years to begin his own historic reign as welterweight champion. The only boxer to match Robinson that year was Henry Brimm, who fought him to a 10-round draw in Buffalo.

Robinson fought 19 times in 1950.[11] He successfully defended his welterweight title for the last time against Charley Fusari. Robinson won a lopsided 15 round decision, knocking Fusari down once.[11] Robinson donated all but $1 of his purse for the Fusari fight to cancer research.[29] In 1950, Robinson fought George Costner, who had also taken to calling himself "Sugar" and stated in the weeks leading up to the fight that he was the rightful deserver of the name. "We better touch gloves, because this is the only round," Robinson said as the fighters were introduced at the center of the ring. "Your name ain't Sugar, mine is."[30] Robinson then knocked Costner out in 2 minutes and 49 seconds.[11]

Middleweight Champion[edit]

Robinson stated in his autobiography that one of the main considerations for his move up to middleweight was the increasing difficulty he was having in making the 147 lb (67 kg) welterweight weight limit.[31] However, the move up would also prove beneficial financially, as the division then contained some of the biggest names in boxing. Vying for the Pennsylvania state middleweight title in 1950, Robinson defeated Robert Villemain.[11] Later that year, in defense of that crown, he defeated Jose Basora, with whom he had previously drawn. Robinson's 50-second first round knockout of Basora set a record that would stand for 38 years. In October 1950, Robinson knocked out Bobo Olson a future middleweight title holder.[11]

On February 14, 1951, Robinson and LaMotta met for the sixth time. The fight would become known as The St. Valentine's Day Massacre. Robinson won the undisputed world middleweight title with a 13th round technical knockout.[11] Robinson outboxed LaMotta for the first 10 rounds, then unleashed a series of savage combinations on LaMotta for three rounds,[8] finally stopping the champion for the first time in their legendary six-bout series—and dealing LaMotta his first legitimate knockout loss in 95 professional bouts.[32] LaMotta had lost by knockout to Billy Fox earlier in his career. However, that fight was later ruled to have been fixed and LaMotta was sanctioned for letting Fox win. That bout, and some of the other bouts in the six-fight Robinson-LaMotta rivalry, was depicted in the Martin Scorsese film Raging Bull. "I fought Sugar Ray so often, I almost got diabetes," LaMotta later said.[9] Robinson won five of his six bouts with LaMotta.[11]

After winning his second world title, he embarked on a European tour which took him all over the Continent. Robinson traveled with his flamingo-pink Cadillac, which caused quite a stir in Paris,[33] and an entourage of 13 people, some included "just for laughs".[34] He was a hero in France due to his recent defeat of LaMotta—the French hated LaMotta for defeating Marcel Cerdan in 1949 and taking his championship belt (Cerdan died in a plane crash en route to a rematch with LaMotta).[8] Robinson met President of France Vincent Auriol at a ceremony attended by France's social upper crust; following the ceremony he kissed the President's blushing wife once on each cheek, then repeated the two kisses at the request of press photographers.[35] During his fight in Berlin against Gerhard Hecht, Robinson was disqualified when he knocked his opponent with a punch to the kidney: a punch legal in the US, but not Europe.[25] The fight was later declared a no-contest.[11] In London, Robinson lost the world middleweight title to British boxer Randolph Turpin in a sensational bout.[36] Three months later in a rematch in front of 60,000 fans at the Polo Grounds,[25] he knocked Turpin out in ten rounds to recover the title. In that bout Robinson was leading on the cards but was cut by Turpin. With the fight in jeopardy, Robinson let loose on Turpin, knocking him down, then getting him to the ropes and unleashing a series of punches that caused the referee to stop the bout.[37] Following Robinson's victory, residents of Harlem danced in the streets.[38] In 1951, Robinson was named Ring Magazine's "Fighter of the Year" for the second time.[39]

In 1952, he fought a rematch with Olson, winning by a decision.[11] He next defeated former champion Rocky Graziano by a third-round knockout, then challenged world light heavyweight champion Joey Maxim. In the Yankee Stadium bout with Maxim, Robinson built a lead on all three judges' scorecards, but the 103 °F (39 °C) temperature in the ring took its toll.[9] The referee, Ruby Goldstein, was the first victim of the heat, and had to be replaced by referee Ray Miller. The fast-moving Robinson was the heat's next victim – at the end of round 13, he collapsed and failed to answer the bell for the next round,[9] suffering the only knockout of his career.[11]

On June 25, 1952 after the Maxim bout, Robinson gave up his title and retired with a record of 131-3-1-1. He began a career in show business, singing and tap dancing. After about three years, the decline of his businesses and the lack of success in his performing career made him decide to return to boxing. He resumed training in 1954.

Comeback[edit]

In 1955, Robinson returned to the ring. Although he had been inactive for two and a half years, his work as a dancer kept him in peak physical condition: in his autobiography, Robinson states that in the weeks leading up to his debut for a dancing engagement in France, he ran five miles every morning, and then danced for five hours each night. Robinson even stated that the training he did in his attempts to establish a career as a dancer were harder that any he undertook during his boxing career.[40] He won five fights in 1955, before losing a decision to Ralph 'Tiger' Jones. He bounced back, however, and defeated Rocky Castellani by a split decision, then challenged Bobo Olson for the world middleweight title. He won the middleweight championship for the third time via a second round knockout—his third victory over Olson. After his comeback performance in 1955, Robinson expected to be named fighter of the year. However, the title went to welterweight Carmen Basilio. Basilio's handlers had lobbied heavily for it on the basis that he had never won the award, and Robinson later described this as the biggest disappointment of his professional career. "I haven't forgotten it to this day, and I never will" Robinson wrote in his autobiography.[41] They fought for the last time in 1956, and Robinson closed the four fight series with a fourth round knockout.[11]

In 1957, Robinson lost his title to Gene Fullmer.[11] Fullmer used his aggressive, forward moving style to control Robinson, and knocked him down in the fight.[42] Robinson, however, noticed that Fullmer was vulnerable to the left hook. Fullmer headed into their May rematch as a 3–1 favorite.[43] In the first two rounds Robinson followed Fullmer around the ring, however in the third round he changed tactics and made Fullmer come to him.[43] At the start of the fourth round Robinson came out on the attack and stunned Fullmer, and when Fullmer returned with his own punches, Robinson traded with him, as opposed to clinching as he had done in their earlier fight. The fight was fairly even after four rounds.[43] But in the fifth, Robinson was able to win the title back for a fourth time by knocking out Fullmer with a lightning fast, powerful left hook.[43] Boxing critics have referred to the left-hook which knocked out Fullmer as "the perfect punch".[44] It marked the first time in 44 career fights that Fullmer had been knocked out, and when someone asked Robinson after the fight how far the left hook had travelled, Robinson replied: "I can't say. But he got the message."[43]

Later that year, he lost his title to Basilio in a rugged 15 round fight in front of 38,000 at Yankee Stadium,[45] but regained it for a record fifth time when he beat Basilio in the rematch. Robinson struggled to make weight, and had to go without food for nearly 20 hours leading up to the bout. He badly damaged Basilio's eye early the fight, and by the seventh round it was swollen shut.[46] The two judges gave the fight to Robinson by wide margins: 72–64 and 71–64. The referee scored the fight for Basilio 69–64, and was booed loudly by the crowd of 19,000 when his decision was announced.[46] The first fight won the "Fight of the Year" award from The Ring magazine for 1957 and the second fight won the "Fight of the Year" award for 1958.[11]

He doesn't use google.

As any kind of meaningful debate it ended with his hare brained odds charwell. You can't expect sanity from someone offering odds on a peak Hagler of 66-1 against a guy whose best was at welter and who then offers Turpin at 40-1 against Hagler when Turpin beat and very nearly stopped Robinson in the return.

Like I said his knowledge is wafer thin.

Also you can't have the draw shorter than the underdog.

I can't imagine the draw has ever been anything but the outsider of the three in the history of betting in boxing.

It's not like cricket when the draw can be virtually the only result possible at some point in the match. For it to be a draw in boxing both fighters have more chance of winning than drawing. Even at the end of the fight the draw always has to be the outsider of the three results.

Here's two questions for you EO. I've kept them relatively simple so you can reply.....


Have you ever saw Robinson box, whether it be on video, DVD or YouTube?

Secondly, what would your reaction be if I was to say the Ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time?

Here's another wee google, just for your good self...



Although this charismatic boxer was born Walker Smith Jr., he is best remembered as "Sugar" Ray Robinson. Born on May 3, 1921 in Ailey, Georgia, his parents moved the family to New York when Sugar Ray was a teenager to escape the prevalent prejudice in the South. It was there, in a Harlem gym, that he was first introduced to boxing. Sugar Ray visited the gym frequently, using a borrowed Amateur Athletic Union boxing card of a friend. The friend's name, incidentally, was Ray Robinson.

His natural talent in the ring began to draw attention, and soon crowds gathered to watch Sugar Ray perform. When future coach George Gainford watched him box for the first time, Gainford commented that the young boxer's style and fluid motions were "sweet as sugar." Others agreed, and the nickname stuck. After winning the New York Golden Gloves championship in 1940, 19-year-old Sugar Ray turned pro and never looked back. By 1946, Sugar Ray was the world welterweight champion. His reign included a 91 fight winning-streak. He held the title for five years, and then moved onto acquiring the world middleweight title, which he held five times between 1951-1960. A dominant force in the boxing ring for two decades, Sugar Ray was 38 when he won his last middleweight title.

In the mid-1960s, Sugar Ray exited the ring gracefully. "No beefs, George," he told his coach. "Sometimes we got the best of it in the past."

Sugar Ray's record was 128-1-2 with 84 knockouts at the pinnacle of his career. Amazingly, in over 200 fights, Sugar Ray was never physically knocked out (though he did receive one technical KO). Altogether, he amassed 109 KOs, and finished with a record of 175-19-6 with two no-decisions. World champion Muhammad Ali called him "the king, the master, my idol." In 1997, The Ring magazine named Sugar Ray "pound for pound, the best boxer of all time." More recently, in 1999, the Associated Press named him both the greatest welterweight and middleweight boxer of the century.


The Ring magazine EO. Far better qualified than you to decide...

He doesn't use google. Laugh


I never said that if you care to read again. I said that I hadn't used google.....up until that point.

The reason being I've read plenty about Robinson on google in the past.

I forgot to highlight this part....


Amazingly, in over 200 fights, Sugar Ray was never physically knocked out (though he did receive one technical KO).

Is that it??? What a poor show from EO here. He mentioned the three musketeers,  Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon. And when I provide the evidence he suddenly goes all quiet. Why would that be. Ermm let me guess, he is wrong. Full stop.

Not only did I give him a severe beating on the ropes, but both his eyes are cut and he's legless.

What's that I hear? The referee has stopped the bout for fear of further damage? He went from EO to KO.


PS 'Melly sends his regards.

1.01 EO KO hits back with some of his woeful sarcasm.

Boxing is about opinions. Mine is Sugar Ray was nowhere near the best Middleweight of all time as winning and losing the title several times is nowhere near as good as holding it for years without losing.
Now as welterweight when he was in his prime thats different but people always focus on the 5 times champion bit.

Sugar Ray liked the high life, hence he lost and retained the title five times. When he fought Randolph Turpin on the first occasion he had just returned from France after having had too many late Parisian nights. The fight still went the distance. As stated previously, nobody in the history of boxing has lost and won the title five times.


Of course boxing is about opinions, but no name springs to my mind who could have achieved this feat, and The Ring magazine is the best guide to judge imo.

Blimey, you turn your back for a couple of days.....
I don't 'know' who the best middleweight of all-time was, the best I've seen in my lifetime was probably Hagler, but Robinson is surely in the mix. To also be pretty much universally acknowledged as the best welter, made him very special indeed.
On a related subject, it saddens me a little when those who don't pay too much attention to the game think of Duran as being perhaps the weak link in that great 4 man rivalry in the 80s. He had a whole career as perhaps the greatest lightweight ever to lace up before the first fight with Leonard that started the sequence.

Always thought it was a shame that Duran moved straight to Welterweight and didnt fight Pryor.

You are a real zealot stewarty B.

Hagler was never KO'd (in fact he never even hit the deck, his 1 time v Roldan the experts agree was a push). Hagler fought and beat the best for years. HE never had to 'reclaim' the title. To many he was unbeaten. His 2 points losses are very highly disputed. From the moment Hagler destroyed Minter he ruled the middleweight division.

Hagler also battered a peak Hearns in the 3 round epic dubbed the best fight of all time. Hagler had an iron chin, a ferocious work ethic and was a precision boxer who KO'd every single pretender to his crown until the points win over Duran.

For me he is the greatest. Notice, I said 'for me.' I respect others may choose Robinson or whoever. That is what opinion is about.

Fullmer, Basillio and Pender are not exactly all time great Middleweights are they. His Middleweight record just doesnt compare with others when you really look at it.

Stewarty

Sorry about the delay. I assumed this one had died when you got laughed off the forum after your odds. I used to own a large collection of boxing videos including many of Robinson's best fights. I haven't felt the need to watch any on you tube. What evidence is it you think you've provided? I've told you my beef with your assertion about regaining the title. You've got to lose it first to win it back. That's something which is a negative. Using Hagler as an example he lost the title at the end of his career and had an unbroken record as the man in the division taking on all comers for several years including legends. That was his legacy as it was for Hopkins and Monzon.

I remember having an interesting discussion several years ago with a boxing afficionado who was convinced that Hagler's peak came when he fought some of those unheralded but very underrated Philly middles of the late 70's. I said Hagler showed his greatness by evolving his style from a slick southy into a seek and destroy beast in the early 80's. It's a similar story to Ali's. He was probably the greatest in the late 60's when nobody could lay a glove on him but he then proved it in the 70's when he took on the golden generation of heavies having lost his greatest asset of his speed and he still emerged as that eras greatest heavyweight.

So yes, I'd agree he was the greatest heavyweight in my view but not because he lost and won the title which was the rather clumsy admission you were seeking. That in itself was a negative for Ali as well but other factors counter tha negative.

As for what other people think they are all entitled to their views. I have Robinson down as the greatest welter. I'm not overly concerned by this mythical pound for pound business but you can't keep Robinson out of frame for that if you are. Where we agree or we seemed to is that you look at a fighters record which helps form an opinion about their merits. Robinson's record has to be impacted as a middle by the fact that he came to it late in his career and his record taken in isolation as a middle is one of a great fighter but not the greatest because of this and losing the fights he did.

Well EO, I think it's time to end the thread amicably. Everyone has their own opinion which I respect. Having said that, I fully believe Robinson was the best ever. (imo) I will end my case by saying this one thing....


Amazingly, in over 200 fights, Sugar Ray was never physically knocked out (though he did receive one technical KO).


I know I've pasted it before, but I can't think of any high class fighter who could of even had over 200 fights. That sentence alone has to make some on here wonder where he got his durability from, given the fact that many of his fights were over fifteen rounds and not the twelve we have now. Also some thing boxing fans should take into consideration was the fact his career was interrupted by having to go into the army for approx. eighteen months.

I think I've put up a fairly decent argument for Robinson and as Ali said, "He was the king, the master, my idol."

That'll do for me.

TKO is a KO as you are in no position to defend yourself!

SRR hit the canvas plenty of times. La Motta wiped the floor with him when beating him. La Motta floored SRR in separate fights and SRR was saved by the bell on the count of 9 when put through the ropes and also got up on the count of 9 the 2nd time. SRR was decked over 20 times in his career.

Hagler was never even decked with a legitimate punch against superior foes to SRR.

La Motta, Hagler, Robinson, Benn, Eubank, all of them.

Not even in Ray Leonard's class. Beat Hagler - and yes he did beat him - after three years out of the ring and one fight in five years.

Sugar Ray Leonard is rated the twelve best ever.....
























   








By Kieran Mulvaney | Special to ESPN.com

Send | Print


50 Greatest

Who's really the greatest of all time? ESPN.com ranks 'em. Let the debate begin.
• How we picked the list | 50-41 | 40-31 | 30-21 | 20-11 | 10-1 | The entire list



10. Sam Langford

Lightweight, welterweight, middleweight, heavyweight
Ring career: 1902-26 Record: 167-38-37-3 (117 KOs) and 48 no-decisions
Career notes: Almost certainly the greatest fighter never to win, or even fight for, a world title. … Fought all the way from lightweight to heavyweight, and continued to fight -- and win -- even after becoming almost completely blind in one eye and partially blind in another. … Problem was that he was just too good. That, and the fact that heavyweight career overlapped with that of Jack Johnson -- who refused to give him a title shot, and whose behavior outside the ropes made promoters leery about the prospect of another black heavyweight champion -- combined to deny him the world title opportunity he deserved. … After being forced to retire because of blindness, disappeared from view until he was rediscovered by journalist Al Laney in 1944.


9. Jack Dempsey

Heavyweight
Ring career: 1914-27 Record: 61-6-8 (50 KOs) and 6 no-decisions
Career notes: Held world heavyweight title from 1919 to 1926, although only six of his fights during that period were official title defenses. … Furious two-fisted punching style was hugely popular with fans. … Engaged in some of the most celebrated battles of all time, including with Luis Angel Firpo and Gene Tunney. … The "Manassa Mauler" was the face of boxing at a time when it was still, along with baseball and horse racing, the most popular sport in the land. … Rakishly handsome and charismatic outside the ring, was all-action inside it, brandishing a breathtaking, go-for-broke fighting style. … Won the title by shattering the jaw of giant Jess Willard. … When he lost it, by decision to Tunney in 1926, it was in front of the largest paid attendance in the history of boxing -- more than 120,000 spectators. … In rematch, floored Tunney for a count of nine, the infamous "long count" in which Tunney was actually on the canvas for 14 seconds. … After losing rematch, retired and opened a restaurant in New York.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Jack Dempsey ESPN Video


8. Jack Johnson

Heavyweight
Ring career: 1897-1928 Record: 77-13-14 (48 KOs) and 19 no-decisions
Career notes: First black heavyweight champion. … Beat Tommy Burns to win crown in 1908, and held on to it until defeated by Jess Willard in 1915. … Was in many ways precursor to Muhammad Ali: dominant in the ring and deliberately provocative and antagonizing outside it, shocking and infuriating white society with his boldness and arrogance. … Was driven into exile for much of his reign, living and fighting in Europe and South America to avoid facing charges under the profoundly racist Mann Act, which prohibited the transport of white women across state lines for immoral purposes. … Died in an auto accident in 1946.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Jack Johnson ESPN Video


7. Benny Leonard

Lightweight 
Ring career: 1911-32 Record: 85-5-1 (69 KOs) and 121 no-decisions
Career notes: Won world lightweight championship in May 1917, and retired as champion in January 1925, making him the longest-reigning lightweight champion ever. … After more than seven years, made return to the ring, winning 18 of 19. … At one stage, fought 154 consecutive bouts without losing. … Of five losses, three were in his formative ring years, one was on a foul when challenging for the welterweight championship and one was the final contest of his career, during his comeback after a seven-year layoff, against fellow Hall of Famer Jimmy McLarnin. … Exceptional all-around talent possessed speed, accuracy and power in one package. … Became a referee after retirement, and collapsed and died in the ring while refereeing a bout in New York state.


6. Roberto Duran

Lightweight, welterweight, junior middleweight, middleweight
Ring career: 1968-2001 Record: 103-16 (70 KOs)
Career notes: Won lightweight championship from Ken Buchanan in 1972. … Snarling, unstoppable ring monster dominated lightweight division for seven years, and then outhustled Sugar Ray Leonard to become welterweight champ in 1980. … Quit in the rematch with Leonard five months later. … At 32, destroyed Davey Moore to win a junior middleweight belt in 1983, and fought bravely against Marvin Hagler five months later. … In 1984, was felled, flat on his face, by Tommy Hearns inside two rounds. … In the 21st year of professional career, improbably won a middleweight belt by beating Iran Barkley in 1989.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Roberto Duran ESPN Video


5. Willie Pep

Featherweight
Ring career: 1940-66 Record: 230-11-1 (65 KOs)
Career notes: Two-time world featherweight champion renowned for legendary defensive skills. … Achieved tremendous success despite suffering near-fatal injuries in a plane crash in 1947. … Legend that says he once won a round without throwing a punch (he almost certainly did not) is testament to defensive wizardry of "Will o' the Wisp." … Won first 63 bouts before losing to Sammy Angott, and then went 72-0-1 before losing again, to Sandy Saddler. … Only Saddler was ever truly able to figure him out, winning three of four times in bouts that were frequently brutal and foul-filled.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Willie Pep ESPN Video


4. Joe Louis

Heavyweight
Ring career: 1934-51 Record: 68-3 (54 KOs)
Career notes: Won world heavyweight championship in 1937, and retired as champion in 1949. … Held heavyweight title for longer (11 years, 8 months, 7 days) and made more successful defenses (25) than anyone. … Defined by two fights against Max Schmeling of Germany. In first encounter, was unbeaten and knocked out in the 12th round, in June 1936. In rematch, almost exactly two years later, as world champion knocked out challenger in the first round, becoming hero to black and white Americans alike, and cemented his place as one of the most popular champions of all time.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Joe Louis ESPN Video


3. Henry Armstrong

Featherweight, lightweight, welterweight
Ring career: 1932-45 Record: 151-21-9 (101 KOs)
Career notes: Only boxer to hold world titles at three different weights simultaneously. … Won featherweight crown in October 1937. … Added welterweight title in May 1938 and became lightweight champion three months later. … Challenged for middleweight crown in 1940, and held champion Ceferino Garcia to a draw. … Known variously as "Hammerin' Hank" and "Homicide Hank." Third nickname, "Hurricane Hank," was perhaps the most appropriate. … Was a whirlwind of a fighter, a perpetual-motion machine who overwhelmed opponents with a nonstop, suffocating fusillade of punches. … Faced 17 world champions in career and defeated 15 of them.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Henry Armstrong ESPN Video


2. Muhammad Ali

Heavyweight
Ring career: 1960-81 Record: 56-5 (37 KOs)
Career notes: First to win heavyweight championship of the world three times. … Was banned from the ring for three years for refusing induction into the armed forces during the Vietnam War. … After ban was lifted, lost to Joe Frazier in "Fight of the Century" in 1971, but stunned George Foreman to regain belt in 1974. … Lost title to, and regained it from, Leon Spinks in 1978. … Three of defeats came in last four bouts, including two in an ill-advised emergence from retirement, against Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick, at 38. … Transcended the sport unlike any other boxer. … Reinvented the way heavyweights were supposed to fight, deploying a speed and athleticism that was previously unheard of; also alternately bedazzled and appalled America and the world with charisma, showmanship and braggadocio. … Viewed progressively over the years as loudmouth, villain, hero and finally a figure of pathos. … Remains for many the definition of a champion.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Muhammad Ali ESPN Video


1. Sugar Ray Robinson

Welterweight, middleweight
Ring career: 1940-65 Record: 175-19-6-2 (109 KOs)
Career notes: Won world welterweight title in December 1946, and defended it four times before stepping up in weight and winning, in 1951, first of five stints as middleweight champ. … Attempted to win light heavyweight title from Joey Maxim in 1952, but was stopped in the 14th round. … Born Walker Smith in Ailey, Ga. … Was the most complete boxer yet to grace the squared circle. … Lost just one of first 123 fights, to Jake LaMotta, a defeat avenged five times in a classic ring rivalry. … A near-perfect pugilist at welterweight, was less dominant at middleweight, but was still able to win the title five times, including three times after he had retired for two and a half years. … Only stoppage defeat was when challenging Maxim for light heavyweight crown, and then was leading on points until overcome by heat so extreme that it had forced the replacement of the referee in the 10th.

charwell.    30 Aug 14 03:02 
TKO is a KO as you are in no position to defend yourself!

Yanks count TKOs as KOs, but I don't.

Of course the referee stop fights when boxers are too dazed to carry on after getting hit with a combination, or are severely outclassed and in deep trouble. That's a TKO. 

TKO's also occur when a boxer is on his stool at the end of a round but is unable to continue because of a bad cut. He's quite able to defend himself, but because of the cut, it wouldn't be wise to try it .

The only thing I consider a true KO is when a boxer gets put down by one punch or a flurry of punches, and is still down when the referee gets to 10.

If he gets up at any time from 1 to 9, and the ref stops it, imo, that's a TKO.