The McCanns - close to being caught

your digging me out Naydam
wont get you anywhere m8

I said if ok

ebul

i worded it badly, when i said they were not that responsible i meant they acted poorly in relation to their child, not that they are blameless

i feel that if they didn't kill her, then their actions certainly left her vulnerable to someone gaining access to her

sorry i wasn't clear, i'm certainly not saying they did nothing wrong, leaving their kid alone was plain nuts imo

4 years ago me the wife  our 14 yr old at the time daughter and 2 friends shared a apaartment in Turkey. On the last morning we decided to have a Turkish breakfast by the sea but my daughter did not want to go. I stayed at the villa with her but was under pressure by the other three to go as they said she would be ok. My reply was " I could not live with myself if something happened to her while I went for a F..... breakfast.

So some people don't worry about it and people like me always fear the worst.

Well, here's a fu**ing theory for you. First, though, let's throw ou8t that crap about "the Portuguese police 'think' they did it. The Portuguese police may be able to apply that kind of evidence in local convictions, but this is international and 'we think' simply will not do! Some of them might think she's been beamed up by bloody aliens...that does NOT make it right. Or wrong, for that matter. Only facts will suffice.

Right, back to this dog. I assume that Keela is considered to be well trained. I also consider that Keela is quite smart and quick on the uptake. I also assume that, when Keela 'indicates' the presence certain odours, she gets to be fussed over and play with her favourite toy.
Now, any intelligent dog will learn very quickly that they can either go over and over this 'seek seek seek' rigmarole and get no reward, or she can do a quick sit and point, with her outstretched paw, at some random spot and it's all "Good girl, Keela. Fetch!" And we all play fun games and bounce about!

She probably didn't like all those strange smells in Portugal, anyway. Or those local scruffy dogs. Just a bunch of strays and ne'er-do-wells. Bet she couldn't wait to get home!

I would have done like you steamship, but if he had a friend of the same age with him  then I probably would go for the breakfast, again that depends on the circumstances. though after saying that we did go on a cruise, and I did leave him alone to wander the ship whoops:]

Steamship. What is the 'age of consent' in Turkey?

Steamship. Just checked. It is 18 yrs. It crossed my mind that the greasy waiters might have been hanging around, as per Spain.

ah you have come up with an argument Naydam

Your first paragraph is saying the Portugese Police are totally inept

Your second argument say sniffer dogs are useless

my answer the Portugese Police are not inept..well you have to come up with a bit more proof
and sniffer dogs are not useless...otherwise know one would use them....
actually they are better than any machine..they are very useful...so again you would have to come up with a bit more proof
to maintain they are all useless

I have had a look at some of your earlier posts
Yes parents do sometimes leave children on their own
but these are older children who been well schooled in such things as don't unlock the door,
what to do in an emergency,etc, they will probably have a mobile phone...so they are aware
and have some capacity to protect themselves

What no parent does, or should do , is to leave 3 infants(oldest 4) who are completely helpless, on their own in a strange country
a strange hotel room..unless they are completely mad or really could not care a less about their own children

Another argument you put, because they Doctors, one must not assume they have any capacity to look after their own children.
Doctors are intelligent and well educated people. their job is the treatment and care of children. Your argument
does not seem to have any credibility  to me.

One fact is they left 3 helpless infants alone for one night, they were too mean to pay a hotel nanny
£25 to look after them...so in fact Madeliene is dead for the want of want of £25

I could not defend these people, if they just did it for the one night, then were Negligent..but people
make mistakes
if they were doing it every night..they are worthless garbage in my opinion
pretty any any parent does better than this

this is just my opinion, you van give your own

I forgot
the dog was one of ours

specialist British sniffer dogs

it was not just a stray mongrel the Portugese Police picked up off the street as you put it

you should have read my link

actually I misread your post about dog you said it was one of ours, you got it me there
plus you seem to have solved it a greasy waiter...well done

the mind boggles how 3 children that young were left alone in a foreign country never mind UK

Scotland yard has spent two years reviewing all the evidence in the case at a cost of £5 million.



there on a nice earner,why stop now?

DCI Redwood was the mastermind behind the Dando investigation expect similar results here.

dando

It seems the biggest issue with the majority is that they're angry that they left the kids alone and have remained unpunished and it's clouded some peoples reasoning regarding who did it.
Not taking sides but hope the police will eventually solve it. I have my doubts though.

Please allow me to bow out (no pun intended, Keela) while my sanity is intact.

The detective leading the case was about to charge the mcCanns before being removed from the case and someone else put in charge after some 'political' pressure

As a "tax payer " thats wonderfull news...............

EbulGery. Why should it be ME who has to produce more 'proof'? I don't have ANY proof. I don't know what occurred during the course of this child's disappearance. The only thing that I DO know is that YOU don't know either.

You mentioned that the Portuguese police think the McCanns 'did it'. I simply pointed out that thinking somebody 'did it' is proof of absolutely nothing. Did WHAT, by the way?

I also pointed out that it might well be possible for a very naughty little doggy to mislead her handler. All the dog wants to do is to play with it's reward toy. So, why shouldn't she indicate that she's done her job and now she wants her favourite toy. Let's face it...Keela found lots of places where a body had been and therefore got lots of playing. The dog doesn't have any idea of the gravity of the situation. The dog doesn't even know why people can't do their OWN sniffin'.

As regards Kate 'refusing to answer police questions' as somebody pointed out. I imagine that Portuguese law recognises your right to remain silent. Perhaps she simply exercised that right. Perhaps she was advised to by her 'very expensive' (as somebody else pointed out) lawyer. I can imagine that, from her point of view, the police were expending all of their energy and resources into trying to prove their guilt instead of looking for her missing child.

Now let's look at some facts. The highly efficient Portuguese police haven't got a conviction. The haven't got a body. And they haven't found the child...in FACT they haven't got bugger all!
Am I really expected to believe that two ordinary people have come up with the perfect murder? Well, I'm sorry, but I believe the McCanns account of proceedings over all of these nasty little conspiracy theories.

Do you lot follow news stories? Just asking because of the number of high profile cases in which people have posted stuff on Twitter or Facebook and found themselves having their collars felt, or letters landing on their welcome mat from solicitors of offended parties.
You're not posting on here anonymously you know, and some of the dross here is as defamatory as it gets. You're lucky no-one reads chit-chat imo.

you can say what you want in chit-chat it has the same status as the house of commons

In so many ways BB

you have just basically repeated your previous post Naydam

Portugese Police are useless, Sniffer dogs are useless
still you have a right to your opinion

I stand by my opinion. Madeleine is dead because her own parents could not be asked to pay someone to baby sit them
£25 or was it £50 ,that was worth more than the life of their own child to them
And as witnesses have attested they were doing it every night, leaving their children unattended and unprotected.
which I find credible...this makes them truly rancid in my book.

They have also, as mange pointed out, had millions of pounds of public money spent on trying to find Madeleine
whereas other parents in the same situation have has none, even though it was the parents own neglect in this case
which caused it, no neglect, Madeleine would still be alive...it is not that hard to arrange a baby sitter.

So for once I think the tabloids can have this pair. Just an attention seeking pair, who have no idea of
actually caring for their children...so worthless, just in my own opinion of course

you are right Naydam I have no idea what actually happened the night  Madeleine disappeared
unfortunately..

But what I can see is neglect, three infant children being left on their own on a nightly basis
in a strange hotel in a foreign country..while their parents were out on the town
so that is what I am giving my opinion on

Are you deliberately misreading my posts? I have not said the police were useless. I have simply pointed out that they have got precisely NOWHERE with this case in spite of all of their efforts. If that makes them incompetent in your opinion, then so be it, but don't keep saying that it was ME who said it!
I also didn't say that the dog was useless...I simply pointed out how the training methods used could possibly yield inaccurate results.

Are you seriously telling me that the 'evidence' of a dog seeking only it's reward (favourite toy) can be totally trusted? Don't you think that it might be good policy to have at LEAST two sniffer dogs. Then, if they BOTH, independently, indicate exactly the same areas, you might have some degree of assurance that the indicating is correct. Let's face it, Keela might well have just got bored and thought (in doggy), bugger it, I'm gonna tell there's a smell here...the dozy buggers will never the difference! Then she gets to play with her toy...the only thing she cares about in all of this.

I also pointed out that the parents medical training did not necessarily make them any better equipped t be 'good parents' than anybody else. This was again misconstrued.  In fact, the results of what happened that night would indicate that their parenting skills were actually LESS than those of Mr and Mrs Ordinary.
That observation might well apply to the other members of the group as well, if they were doing similar checks on their own kids.

You mention (as do others) the cost of hiring a childminder as if this was a contributing factor. Perhaps it was. Equally, perhaps it wasn't. Personally, I doubt very much if the cost was even considered.

Please read carefully.

naydam
06 Jul 13 11:49   
Well, here's a fu**ing theory for you. First, though, let's throw ou8t that crap about "the Portuguese police 'think' they did it. The Portuguese police may be able to apply that kind of evidence in local convictions, but this is international and 'we think' simply will not do! Some of them might think she's been beamed up by bloody aliens...that does NOT make it right. Or wrong, for that matter. Only facts will suffice.

I think they did it.

I don't need facts to think this, neither did the Portuguese police.

Were the police entitled to say they think thhe McCanns did it? Of course they were, they were named as suspects.

The fact that nothing has been proven yet cannot stop people all over the world forming their own opinions. 

They are clearly guilty of neglect, that needs no proof.

What is it with you fellas? Why you speak in riddles?

You think they did WHAT? What is this 'it' you keep referring to?

If, indeed, they are guilt of neglect, and I would agree wholeheartedly on that point, then they cannot be guilty of 'it' regardless of what 'it' might be! Because, if they left their children unattended, they can't have been present to do 'it' (whatever 'it' may be) because they unattended.

naydam

I'm not suggesting they did "it" but it would be perfectly feasible to dose a kiddy up with sedatives so they could be reasonably sure they wouldn't wake up and spoil the family meal/wine by crying the place down. Then they could go to a restaurant and enjoy their night. That in my view would be negligent.

Following on from that it could happen that a child could be accidentally overdosed with medicine and die in an apartment due to any number of reasons. That could be manslaughter.

Ergo they could have done it (negligence) and it (manslaughter).

Leaving aside the hysterics and conjecture the only thing we can say for sure is that they left a toddler and two babies alone for a period of time whilst they went off for a meal. I don't think many people would have done that and given their time again I'd be pretty sure the McCann's wouldn't either.

"Leaving aside the hysterics and conjecture"!! Are you kidding? Don't you think it might be a good idea to leave those things 'aside' BEFORE you suggest that the child may have been sedated, accidentally overdosed and then died!
There is no question that they were negligent. Deliberately leaving the children unattended was, in itself, and act of negligence.

But now you've dreamed up a dead body that these people have to get rid of while, at the same time, enjoying their tea! Do you have any wondrous theories as to how they accomplished this?

I think I'll settle for the less dramatic potential sequence of events.

i remember seeing a photo or a tv clip showing that the restaurant was within the complex and pretty much in sight of where they left the kids unless my mind is playing tricks, they were within a few hundred feet i think

i'm not saying that's right before anyone jumps up and down, just trying to give an honest perspective of what they did, they left the kids but were close, in their minds they obviously felt it was safe enough

i still wouldn't have left mine even over that distance, but we are all different

A reasonable question..........would the todler have woken.............maybe gone to the door maybe calling "mummy"

I rather think that if this stuff was trending on Twitter, one or two people would be getting sharply worded letters reminding them that hiding behind a description of "it" and attempting to cover their @rses with "in my opinion" would cut little swathe in a court of law.
Serious bills could ensue imo.

^ Lets hope this happens. Incredible statements being made on this thread.People need to think before they spew out malicious garbage.

SqueezeFirmly
They are clearly guilty of neglect, that needs no proof.

Not sure thinking is high on the 'to do list' here Facts.
I was under the impression that being guilty meant one had to be proved guilty but hey, it's chit-chat.

I think what they did was neglectful and bordering on reckless and therefore I wouldn't be a legitimate member of any jury should such a charge be brought. However, this is opinion and easily defensible.
Some of the stuff here...pfffft.

I'd love to see the McCanns suing everybody who thinks they did it. It would be them that were left with the hefty legal bill. Which others will pay on their behalf of course.

I think that the threads becomeing laughable..................there now operating with "public money" so shurley one can voice an oponion............................(not point the finger)

I think they sued the express.  Quite right too.  Disgusting for a national newspaper to go bullying a couple whove just lost a child.  When they spoke at leveson they said there were paparazzi banging at their car windows trying to get pics of them and the twins, such that the twins were so scared they started crying.  Ffs how obscene is that, just to get a picture to put in a paper to make money and influence halfwits.

sells papers, the press have no morals

neither have the McCanns in my opinion

still I hope the truth comes out...whatever it is

a couple of the questions the police asked Kate McCann in Portugal, her immediate reactions did seem strange so reasonable questions I would have thought (?)

" Why did you say straight away that Madeleine had been abducted.  How did you know she had been abducted ?

Presuming that Madeleine had been abducted, why did you leave the twins alone at home while you went to the Tapas to raise the alarm? Even because the supposed abductor could still be inside the apartment."

hmmmmmm

mccanns are definatley dodgy in my book

naydam

You misconstrue what I said. I'm in the innocent until proven guilty camp although I think they were stupid leaving three babes unattended. What I was saying was that you were wrong to suggest they couldn't have been guilty of both negligence and have done "it". They could. I don't think they did though.

I feel as long as people say they are speculating and not claiming fact

The accidental death theory must still be on the table

At the moment I still believe it was abduction. I feel the McCanns may have created
an unfortunate pattern by leaving their daughters alone on a regular basis(as attested to by neighbouring rooms)
and a predator at the hotel spotted it...this is just theory though, and I imagine it has been thoroughly
scrutinised...as it would seem most obvious.

I think a lot of work has been put into this case(and money of course) and our police have suspects in mind
and are saying they can make arrests in next few months. They are saying they have no certain evidence that Madeleine is dead,
so probably best we can hope for at the moment

just my own opinion, not fact

I have discussed child care issue earlier, so am not going back to that one

I thought I read somewhere our police were looking at known paedophiles
but I do apologise if I gave the impression it was fact...
I have no idea who they are looking at
although they say at the moment it does not include the McCanns themselves

I also thought I read somewhere
The Portuguese police have to name some one as a suspect before they can investigate someone.. it is their law
so of course the McCanns were named, on the grounds everybody needs to be investigated who could physically have done it
even if just to clear them

I may be wrong on that

naydam    

Right, back to this dog. I assume that Keela is considered to be well trained. I also consider that Keela is quite smart and quick on the uptake. I also assume that, when Keela 'indicates' the presence certain odours, she gets to be fussed over and play with her favourite toy.

Now, any intelligent dog will learn very quickly that they can either go over and over this 'seek seek seek' rigmarole and get no reward, or she can do a quick sit and point, with her outstretched paw, at some random spot and it's all "Good girl, Keela. Fetch!" And we all play fun games and bounce about!

…I also pointed out that it might well be possible for a very naughty little doggy to mislead her handler. All the dog wants to do is to play with it's reward toy. So, why shouldn't she indicate that she's done her job and now she wants her favourite toy. Let's face it...Keela found lots of places where a body had been and therefore got lots of playing. The dog doesn't have any idea of the gravity of the situation. The dog doesn't even know why people can't do their OWN sniffin'.

I would presume that sniffer dogs are subject to regular training and testing. I would also consider it reasonable to suppose that they are not rewarded for indicating false positives during their training and testing. If they are found to indicate false positives with any significant frequency, I would presume that they wouldn't be placed or remain on active service in that capacity.

Based on those presumptions and the assumption that Keela didn't choose this particular case to first go rogue, for your assessment to be correct, presumably Keela only indicates false positives in situations where she has ascertained that her handlers and other officers will find it difficult to disprove her false indications?

Presumably she must also collude with other sniffer dogs used to independently verify her results, such that they too frequently indicate false positives in exactly the same locations she identified?

What an astonishingly clever dog.

I DID tell you that she would be quick on the uptake.

Haven't read the thread from the start but think I have got the gist of it.

Is it known whether Keela the dog had previous dealings with any of the names on the suspect list?

If you google Kate McCann the first suggestion you get is Kate McCann Guilty

Is that meaningful?

Yes, it reflects public opinion...not media opinion.

JT45. I don't know the answer to this, so maybe you can. Were the results indicated by Keela independently confirmed by another dog (hopefully of equal standing)?

By the way, my comments were a little bit tongue-in-cheek.
But, of course, you would never accept evidence from a witness who was being financially rewarded for their evidence. Luckily, keela doesn't use money...but she don't half enjoy playing with that ball!

So, Google is not part of the media? Are you really sure? I mean REALLY really sure?

naydam,

I don't for know for certain whether Keela's indications were independently verified using another sniffer dog in this case. I would have thought it would be standard practice in the most serious of cases.

I have though briefly searched the web and there are a number of reports that suggest at least one other dog, 'Eddy' or 'Eddie' depending on source, was used and did produce positive indications in at least some of the same locations that Keela indicated positives.

the more I think of this case the more I think the mccanns are guilty.are we seriously to believe that while they were out boozing an abducter went and took the little girl, to be honest it would have been such a precise operation that I doubt couldn't have been made

people who think the mccanns have something to do with this are deranged.

I would guess that the abductor would know where the parents were. Hardly a precise operation would be needed. The parents could be seen from where the kids were. That would ensure time enough.

he must have been watching them for a few days, are we to believe that this was the case , no way would it have been a spur of the moment thing.

Jul 7, 2013 -- 9:35PM, brain dead jockeys wrote:

people who think the mccanns have something to do with this are deranged.

Or just playing the percentages

ill admit find it easier to think the mcanns guilty than not

Brain dead jockeys has confirmed their guilt.  Check out his tennis  threads.  Champion numpty.

Two seemingly respectable doctors on holiday with their kids.
We are lead to believe they willfully killed their beautiful little girl.

Or alternatively, as a result of a sedative induced accidental death, they disposed of her body to prevent prosecution.
How many sane, rational people on holiday would kill their child. And how many would cover up an accidental death to such an extent.

What sentence would they get (if convicted at all) for an overdose of prescription drugs? They would probably prefer it to be doubled if they had accidentally killed their child. No-one could live with that guilt.

Yes, it sounds very clinical.

brain dead

They have everything to do with it. If they hadn't left their babes alone to go out the opportunity to snatch Madeline wouldn't have presented itself. Some parents are unlucky. Some parents are unlucky and stupid.

What is the best book to read about this case in detail?

Playing at Nefyn in 10 days time Elisjohn. Can't wait

This thread will one day be similar to the



'Jimmy Savile was a great bloke thread'

I suggest you go the 10 miles or so to borth y gest for breakfast, the sea view I think its called, cant be missed, best brekkie ive ever had and endless supply of fresh coffee, then walk tto h the dunes about 5 mins away, a hidden gem, really is fab, kev. enjoy yourself anyhow, im off north devon/ cornwall in few weeks.think actually there is a golf course in borth y gest called morfa bychan

elisjohn.

This where they buried her?

Any parents who can leave 3 kids while they go partying must have some lack of emotional attactment with their children.  And maybe their off-putting bevaiour afterwards makes some people doubt them, but if they were a couple of fat slobs and not 2 upper-class professionals, sure a lot of people would have doubts about them.


Kate McCann said that the last words of Maddie before she went missing were "Today has been the best day of my life." A bit unusual for a three-year-old girl to say that.  Kids that age  don’t usually have a concept of their "life." "I am having the best time," or "I am having fun" are more normal statements for a very young child. So did Kate make that up or did Maddie really say it.

Little things like that add up and just seem a bit odd, but does not mean they are guilty of anything except child neglect.

macginty

children get abducted by perverts all the time.........this is prob what happened.

annie

"What is the best book to read about this case in detail?"

Just Google 'kate mccann guilty', should be enough reading there to keep you up all night.

What sentence would they get (if convicted at all) for an overdose of prescription drugs? They would probably prefer it to be doubled if they had accidentally killed their child. No-one could live with that guilt.

I may be wrong
but I think they would have been looking at a long spell in a Portugese prison for 'manslaughter'
these are high stakes

Some would prefer to live with it than pay the punishment

These people are not anywhere near genuine enough for me...and no I don't like them
but that is just an opinion...that does not mean they were responsible

nobody in their right minds has suggested they did it wilfully easy

what concerns a lot of people, including me,is the lack of care

people are divided on this, hence lot a lot of argument

what is this doing to their other children??????

"these people are no where genuine enough for me"

know them well do you son?.......had dinner with them?........go to the boozer with them?.........work with them?.........no u dont know them so what are you on about?

apologies
judging them by their actions and what they are doing
I did say it was an opinion
and the forum was divided

SHOULD BE ARRESTED



FOR NEGLECT

Jul 7, 2013 -- 10:21PM, TELL DEL wrote:

annie"What is the best book to read about this case in detail?"Just Google 'kate mccann guilty', should be enough reading there to keep you up all night.

Or Google 9/11 George Bush guilty - you'll get as much sense.

Mccanns spokesman(ex-labour party spin-doctor) said:

There is a wholly innocent explanation for any material the police may or may not have found.

It is true that we have requested a meeting with the prime minister to show him the strength of our case, to explain Kate and Gerry's innocence and yet all we've been offered is a medium-level-consular meeting, which we rejected.

Kate and Gerry are realistic enough to know that Madeleine may be dead and it would be a tragedy that she is found as such, because it rules out the hope that she is alive ... But any widening of the search area is encouraging and we would welcome that. If she is dead then she is dead, but not by their hand.

They don't cry in public, but plenty of tears are shed 'backstage'.

I assume the 'laughing' icon was your own work.

Is that a recent report, by the way?

to me the real issue here is that they're putting so many resources into this again when the kid's 99.9% certain to have been dead for many years. it's all money that won't be spent elsewhere, and there's very little chance it'll uncover anything new.

I can't help feeling that if the mccanns weren't so good at playing the system and their daughter wasn't so photogenic it wouldn't be happening.

Well if it gives the police an excuse to round up some paedoes then its probably not all wasted money.

Do you have any facts to support this 99.9% figure?

Would that be similar to the odds of finding those three girls alive in the USA recently, after being missing for years?

more chance  finding potatoes crisp

how many kids and young women have gone missing in that time, naydam? those three turning up alive was a once in a blue moon event.

the chances of madeline mccann still being alive are incredibly small. when small children go missing they either turn up within a couple of days or they're dead. that's just the way it is.

They have probably seeded the story themselves to see if they can sell a few more books out of it.

It's hard to comprehend that they done it, but some interesting stuff online about the 2 dogs that were brought in:

"On British police advice, the Portuguese asked top dog handler Martin Grime to bring his springer spaniels, Eddie and Keela, to Praia da Luz. Eddie is trained to detect the scent of human corpses; Keela is a bloodhound. Eddie had never given a false alert in over 200 previous outings. He alerted to the odour of a human corpse in 4 different locations in the McCanns’ apartment, two on Dr Kate McCann’s clothes, one of the children’s T-shirts, on the pink soft toy, ‘Cuddle Cat’, and in two places in the car the McCanns hired. Eddie did not alert to a corpse scent anywhere else in Praia da Luz. Keela detected blood, which may have been Madeleine’s blood, at some of these places.

When they heard about the dogs’ findings, the McCanns reacted strangely, claiming that…
The ‘smell of death’ may have been found on Kate’s clothes because she was said to have been close to six corpses in her last two weeks at work, on the pink soft toy ‘Cuddle Cat’ because she ‘sometimes took Cuddle Cat to work’.

Any blood found in the flat might have come from Madeleine ‘grazing her leg’ or suffering a nosebleed. In fact, with the help of Martin Grime’s bloodhound, the police found blood underneath the tiles below a window in the living room of the McCanns’ apartment."

The McCanns also claimed that sniffer dogs were ‘notoriously unreliable’. They quoted a U.S. case where a cadaver dog’s alert was said to be wrong. Months later, the dog’s alert was proved right.

not really much use cutting and pasting stuff without saying where it's from.

^ came from a website '50 Facts about the Maddie case.  The evidence of the cadaver dogs'

not really a trustworthy source by the sound of it then.

I find the comment about rejecting a mid level consular meeting and the comment about not getting an audience with the PM puzzling and slightly disturbing. They aren't foreign dignitaries. They are two foolish people who have had a great deal of help which hasn't been extended to other people in similar circumstances.

they didnt kill her by accident or by purpose..........get over it.

Police were quoting the Cleveland case,but they were young adults,young children if not found 48 hours,not good

163 questions---50 facts

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id363.html

with any crime the most vital evidence is often found within a few hours, with this case it is 6 years now.  And if the McCann's are not guilty, they made it too easy for someone else to do it.