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And what do you believe now?
I was undecided at the time.
I don't think that it would be too wise to join now
I was undecided at the time.
I don't think that it would be too wise to join now
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Not back then....and most definately not now.
egner Joined: 11 Jan 07
Replies: 6323 08 Dec 11 20:46
i agree steptoe....
..a "currency" is the financial representation of a country and the culture contained within that country...with all the good ...bad..and indifferent elements of the population...
such as spending habits....work ethic....political and social views..etc...
..so you have 17 countries all with varying cultures and attitudes to public spending and personal saving...not too mention work ethic and the relative competitiveness of their manufacturing and service sectors.....
..you have all these disparities and differences....so what do the poiltical elite of europe (Germany and France) try to do.......make them all use the same currency!!!!!!
...beggars belief.
wake up worcesterwilly.
left the willy bit in cos it makes me smile
egner Joined: 11 Jan 07
Replies: 6323 08 Dec 11 20:46
i agree steptoe....
..a "currency" is the financial representation of a country and the culture contained within that country...with all the good ...bad..and indifferent elements of the population...
such as spending habits....work ethic....political and social views..etc...
..so you have 17 countries all with varying cultures and attitudes to public spending and personal saving...not too mention work ethic and the relative competitiveness of their manufacturing and service sectors.....
..you have all these disparities and differences....so what do the poiltical elite of europe (Germany and France) try to do.......make them all use the same currency!!!!!!
...beggars belief.
wake up worcesterwilly.
left the willy bit in cos it makes me smile
To be Franc, Guilder & myself thought it was a bad idea, Lira did I know things would turn out this bad so quickly, but Mark my words there is no going back.
Nope. Had a long and tedious argument with my dad about the issue at the time. Stupid thing is that we agreed on the central point, but for different reasons!
His was loss of sovereignty, mine was that it clearly wasn't an optimal currency are.
His was loss of sovereignty, mine was that it clearly wasn't an optimal currency are.
I wonder if we'll get anyone saying that they were keen on joining? There were quite a few pseudo-intellectuals of the time patronisingly calling people 'Little Englanders' for not wanting to join and then spouting some Economic babble that no-one understood and probably made no sense
As I mentioned, I myself was unsure, there most definitely used to be a far bigger chunk of people who were pro-Euro
As I mentioned, I myself was unsure, there most definitely used to be a far bigger chunk of people who were pro-Euro
no and no, but I could not tell you why based on economic reasons I am just a little Englander
aren't we in the Euro? If not then we could just send Abu Qatada home.
Regarding the currency, we now get about 1.20 to the pound when it used to be about 1.50 (around 1.64 to start with)
Regarding the currency, we now get about 1.20 to the pound when it used to be about 1.50 (around 1.64 to start with)
I don't know about the UK since you have a pretty unique situation regarding your position in the world, by that I mean, you have excelent relations with English speaking nations around the world, although the language is not what makes you different (if it was only a matter of the language dispersed through the world, Spain and Portugal would surely be the same), what makes you different is the fact that many countries that speak English also have a majoraty of British descendants that largely outnumber the natives (Australia, U.S.A., Canada, etc) and that is a great asset for the future as it was in the past
So if there is a country in Europe that as a slim chance of making it outside the E.U. its definitely the UK, but I say slim because it's a big gamble
The rest of Europe doesn't have that choice, if we are to have any chance of competing and having a word in the global scene against the Asian countries in particular and the rest of the world, we need to be together, the demographics alone is an overwhelming evidence of that need
Having said that, my question is, even if the UK could make it alone, isn't it even better to have both options?
when I ask this I mean think in the long, long term
So if there is a country in Europe that as a slim chance of making it outside the E.U. its definitely the UK, but I say slim because it's a big gamble
The rest of Europe doesn't have that choice, if we are to have any chance of competing and having a word in the global scene against the Asian countries in particular and the rest of the world, we need to be together, the demographics alone is an overwhelming evidence of that need
Having said that, my question is, even if the UK could make it alone, isn't it even better to have both options?
when I ask this I mean think in the long, long term
If only more countries had joined Iraq in trading oil in Euro instead of US Dollars we would most certainly be regretting not joining.
As it is the Euro is clinging on by its fingertips, just waiting for Italy or Greece to tread on them.
As it is the Euro is clinging on by its fingertips, just waiting for Italy or Greece to tread on them.
The rest of Europe doesn't have that choice, if we are to have any chance of competing and having a word in the global scene against the Asian countries in particular and the rest of the world, we need to be together, the demographics alone is an overwhelming evidence of that need
if this is true Lusitano ...and France and Germany are going to effectively underwrite the euro in the long term despite the suffering it will cause to the periphery countries in terms of austerity and restructuring.....then these periphery countries are going to have to get used to ceding many of their political freedoms in the long term in return for the support of Fra/Germ...
Whether the peoples of these countries will tolerate even less accountability from their respective governments and being in thrall to politicians they have no hand in electing in the short term, let alone the long term is open to question.
Perhaps this quote from Edward Gibbon may sum up the question facing them....he was talking about the decline of the Roman Empire....but is relevant today i feel...
"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."
Sir Edward Gibbon (1737-1794)
if this is true Lusitano ...and France and Germany are going to effectively underwrite the euro in the long term despite the suffering it will cause to the periphery countries in terms of austerity and restructuring.....then these periphery countries are going to have to get used to ceding many of their political freedoms in the long term in return for the support of Fra/Germ...
Whether the peoples of these countries will tolerate even less accountability from their respective governments and being in thrall to politicians they have no hand in electing in the short term, let alone the long term is open to question.
Perhaps this quote from Edward Gibbon may sum up the question facing them....he was talking about the decline of the Roman Empire....but is relevant today i feel...
"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."
Sir Edward Gibbon (1737-1794)
Time for a late night super daft question.........but what effect would it have on our economy if we were to adopt the US dollar?
egner, I agree with what you said
people will tolerate things until some point if they are assured that the sacrifices they are making have a reasonable term and an obvious objective, thats what seems to be lacking in what is being said and done by our current politicians, either at European level as the national level
we are already making sacrifices and losing quality of living but no term as been given to us, but worse... no clear objective, so, for what I currently know it could be for decades or forever
the lack of vision of our political leaders is sickening and there are no exceptions
The original idea of the European integration was:
"After World War II, moves towards European integration were seen by many as an escape from the extreme forms of nationalism which had devastated the continent."
I hope this rings a bell and how a financial crisis and a lack of leadership is bringing all this back
in relation to the responsibility part, it's true people were irresponsible but you make it sound like the people themselves were the only ones to blame and thats wrong imo, the example comes from top to bottom and if the people were irresponsible in the first place the conditions were there for them to be, it's that simple
people will tolerate things until some point if they are assured that the sacrifices they are making have a reasonable term and an obvious objective, thats what seems to be lacking in what is being said and done by our current politicians, either at European level as the national level
we are already making sacrifices and losing quality of living but no term as been given to us, but worse... no clear objective, so, for what I currently know it could be for decades or forever
the lack of vision of our political leaders is sickening and there are no exceptions
The original idea of the European integration was:
"After World War II, moves towards European integration were seen by many as an escape from the extreme forms of nationalism which had devastated the continent."
I hope this rings a bell and how a financial crisis and a lack of leadership is bringing all this back
in relation to the responsibility part, it's true people were irresponsible but you make it sound like the people themselves were the only ones to blame and thats wrong imo, the example comes from top to bottom and if the people were irresponsible in the first place the conditions were there for them to be, it's that simple
the example comes from top to bottom and if the people were irresponsible in the first place the conditions were there for them to be, it's that simple
yes, i agree.
and that is where, as you say, both now and in the past Europes leaders have failed the people..
good leadership isnt always giving the people what they want, and borrowing ever greater amounts to satisfy these wants...it is setting a framework in which the people themselves are empowered to creat lasting value for both themselves and the soceity as a whole.
yes, i agree.
and that is where, as you say, both now and in the past Europes leaders have failed the people..
good leadership isnt always giving the people what they want, and borrowing ever greater amounts to satisfy these wants...it is setting a framework in which the people themselves are empowered to creat lasting value for both themselves and the soceity as a whole.
So if there is a country in Europe that as a slim chance of making it outside the E.U. its definitely the UK, but I say slim because it's a big gamble
Britain would be fine outside the EU, no 'slim chance' . Britain has nothing from they EU that it would not have outside (other than the £9 Billion Net loss in the funding of the thing that we could spend on other things).
The EU is a 1960s solution to a 1930s problem , that looks increasingly archaic in the 21st century.
The smugness of the UK pro euro faction in the late 90s is amazing to recall .The standard line was that, by about 2004, whoever was prime minister would be going to Brussels on his hands and knees, begging to join on whatever terms he could get. Because 'we couldn't survive outside'
Britain would be fine outside the EU, no 'slim chance' . Britain has nothing from they EU that it would not have outside (other than the £9 Billion Net loss in the funding of the thing that we could spend on other things).
The EU is a 1960s solution to a 1930s problem , that looks increasingly archaic in the 21st century.
The smugness of the UK pro euro faction in the late 90s is amazing to recall .The standard line was that, by about 2004, whoever was prime minister would be going to Brussels on his hands and knees, begging to join on whatever terms he could get. Because 'we couldn't survive outside'
So puting aside one and a half U.S.A's of consumers (450 million) is fine, and exclude yourselves of any saying of where the politics of those 450 million goes, is fine, no problem
it's a 1.01 bet, it can´t bust
BIG LOL
it's a 1.01 bet, it can´t bust
BIG LOL
We wouldn't be putting any of them aside Lusitano.
EU Nations make a profit on trade with Britain, Britain makes a loss, which has to be made up elsewhere in the world.
If the trade ceases (and the EU trades quiie freely with Switzerland/Norway so why would it?) then there will be more French/German companies that lose profits/jobs/go bust ,than British.
We have no say in the politics of the 450 mllion anyway . All proposals are decided by France/Germany and then supported by at least 20 others . We have one vote and 'a voice' which is ignored . We can vote for or against the proposals but they will go through all the same, or we can veto then , which just pisses off everyone and makes the rest say 'why are they even here?'
EU Nations make a profit on trade with Britain, Britain makes a loss, which has to be made up elsewhere in the world.
If the trade ceases (and the EU trades quiie freely with Switzerland/Norway so why would it?) then there will be more French/German companies that lose profits/jobs/go bust ,than British.
We have no say in the politics of the 450 mllion anyway . All proposals are decided by France/Germany and then supported by at least 20 others . We have one vote and 'a voice' which is ignored . We can vote for or against the proposals but they will go through all the same, or we can veto then , which just pisses off everyone and makes the rest say 'why are they even here?'
themover 11 Feb 12 23:25
Regarding the currency, we now get about 1.20 to the pound when it used to be about 1.50 (around 1.64 to start with)
This is why I wanted the UK to join the euro when it started. The pound was grossly over-valued at the time, and here was a fantastic opportunity to lock in that profit for a generation.
If Tony Blair had got his way, and we had joined, we would now be the richest nation in Europe.
Instead, Gordon Brown stopped him, with the result that any attempt to join now at current exchange rates would be a disaster.
I didn't know at the time. The economics of the issue were beyond me; though I could see that as a "community" move, it would be a good thing.
(It would have also meant that every year I wouldn't go through the, "Should I buy my Euros now?" dilemma.
)
Lusitano makes the best point when he talks about the long, long term. On that basis we won't know whether we made the right or wrong decision for decades yet. The decision to go in, by definition, will have to/would have had to, be made in the short term. We are still in that short term.
(It would have also meant that every year I wouldn't go through the, "Should I buy my Euros now?" dilemma.
)Lusitano makes the best point when he talks about the long, long term. On that basis we won't know whether we made the right or wrong decision for decades yet. The decision to go in, by definition, will have to/would have had to, be made in the short term. We are still in that short term.
It's regarded as a Eurozone crisis now but even without the Euro, the collapse of at least four major Western European economies would have had a devastating effects on the rest of Europe. The Euro hasn't caused the problems in Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal.
You wont get many to admit they were behind the Euro in 1999 now,just the same as i couldnt find anyone that had voted Labour when Brown was screwing up the country
Funny that !
Funny that !
I voted to join what I thought was a common market
I now think we should get out or try(a waste of time) to create a common trading market
I now think we should get out or try(a waste of time) to create a common trading market
Yes and yes but the situation is different in NI where we have a common border to compete with. The ROI is our biggest trading partner. I was in Bray yesterday for footy and it was €5 a pint 
whoops my mistake i thought u meant joining the EU sorry
and non and no
and non and no
sibaroni is a big fan. He will be along shortly to make the case.
Yes back then. No now.
But if we had joined back in 1999 our country would have benefited so much that despite the problems of here and now we would still be better off.
So people thinking they have been proved correct by the state of the Euro now are wrong imo.
But if we had joined back in 1999 our country would have benefited so much that despite the problems of here and now we would still be better off.
So people thinking they have been proved correct by the state of the Euro now are wrong imo.
sibaroni
Of course it hasn't done Germany any harm. The EU has been shaped to work in their and France's interests.
Of course it hasn't done Germany any harm. The EU has been shaped to work in their and France's interests.
Pandorica Joined: 10 Jul 10
Replies: 4610 12 Feb 12 09:22
It's regarded as a Eurozone crisis now but even without the Euro, the collapse of at least four major Western European economies would have had a devastating effects on the rest of Europe. The Euro hasn't caused the problems in Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal.
it absolutely has.
Replies: 4610 12 Feb 12 09:22
It's regarded as a Eurozone crisis now but even without the Euro, the collapse of at least four major Western European economies would have had a devastating effects on the rest of Europe. The Euro hasn't caused the problems in Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal.
it absolutely has.
All four spent vastly more on pensions and public services than they collected in tax. The problems were inherent.
yes sibaroni...they were inherent.
but as i stated in before they were their problems and stem from the differences i outlined in my 21:42 post.
by adopting the euro.....a one size fits all currency...these countries lose the flexibility that enables them to deal with these inherent problems in a managed way...such as setting their own interest rates, devaluation etc
Trying to make them into something they are not...efficieent manufaturing giants like Germany and trying to adjust their social habits and attitudes that have built up over generations (like attitudes to retiremnt age and working hours etc) is never going to work...and why should it. They are differnt countires ..with differnt people and cultures and resources.
Their economies are far from perfect but they are their economies.
but as i stated in before they were their problems and stem from the differences i outlined in my 21:42 post.
by adopting the euro.....a one size fits all currency...these countries lose the flexibility that enables them to deal with these inherent problems in a managed way...such as setting their own interest rates, devaluation etc
Trying to make them into something they are not...efficieent manufaturing giants like Germany and trying to adjust their social habits and attitudes that have built up over generations (like attitudes to retiremnt age and working hours etc) is never going to work...and why should it. They are differnt countires ..with differnt people and cultures and resources.
Their economies are far from perfect but they are their economies.
the fuehrer's lot and franks started breaking their own 3 percent rules years ago which simply opened the door for the others
do not trust this lot
remember what they have done to us in the past
do not trust this lot
remember what they have done to us in the past
Out side of the Euro, they would have no more control over their economy that a cork floating in an ocean.
from Lusitano:
we are already making sacrifices and losing quality of living but no term as been given to us, but worse... no clear objective, so, for what I currently know it could be for decades or forever
I'm sure it is - the excesses my generation has enjoyed are over - gone - finished - NEVER to return.
Mr+Mrs.Smith are going to have to get used to the idea that their value is not (never really was) what they thought and their ambitions need serious downgrading for ever.
The best those who have been fortunate in recent decades can do - is the best we can achieve for our immediate descendents.
For decades I've watched average people in average jobs buying houses and vehicles and holidays and luxuries they really coudn't afford with money they really didn't have.
That's all GONE for GOOD.
I don't just blame the bonkers and woolyticians, Joe public has been willfully party to his own demise.
we are already making sacrifices and losing quality of living but no term as been given to us, but worse... no clear objective, so, for what I currently know it could be for decades or forever
I'm sure it is - the excesses my generation has enjoyed are over - gone - finished - NEVER to return.
Mr+Mrs.Smith are going to have to get used to the idea that their value is not (never really was) what they thought and their ambitions need serious downgrading for ever.
The best those who have been fortunate in recent decades can do - is the best we can achieve for our immediate descendents.
For decades I've watched average people in average jobs buying houses and vehicles and holidays and luxuries they really coudn't afford with money they really didn't have.
That's all GONE for GOOD.
I don't just blame the bonkers and woolyticians, Joe public has been willfully party to his own demise.
I don't think it has gone for good, Ivor. The only reason for deliberately and cheerfully running an inflation rate of 5% alongside interest rates of 0.5% is to maintain ludicrously high property prices and keep this lifestyle going.
There's still a hell of a lot of money out there in savings accounts and pension funds which Mervyn King and David Cameron are busily stealing and transferring to the indebted, the penniless and the feckless (or hard-working homeowners, as we call them these days).
There's still a hell of a lot of money out there in savings accounts and pension funds which Mervyn King and David Cameron are busily stealing and transferring to the indebted, the penniless and the feckless (or hard-working homeowners, as we call them these days).
The chinese will step in to save the Euro if needed, they would not move a finger for the Sterling. Therefore we are probably in a worse position outside than inside.
Like your better off with a first-aider and heart compression than no heart-attack at all?
especially if the former can cause you a heart attack, yes
why would sterling need "saving" though? We control interest rates ourselves don't we?
don't see your point magic, the whole reason the euro is in a position that it needs saving is that it has lots of different countries using it with different debts and public spending and what not. That's my understanding. Greeks would love it to depreciate but they can't make it, here in the uk we've been able to depreciate sterling.
and how do we know the chinese would save it anyway?
don't see your point magic, the whole reason the euro is in a position that it needs saving is that it has lots of different countries using it with different debts and public spending and what not. That's my understanding. Greeks would love it to depreciate but they can't make it, here in the uk we've been able to depreciate sterling.
and how do we know the chinese would save it anyway?
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