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gresty241
22 Apr 10 22:26
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Report TommyBarnes November 27, 2014 11:47 AM GMT
I liked Surrey in the pre mass internet days their ads in the life and post had a good variety of sporting odds (handicaps, totals etc).  Go into Lads etc in 1991 and ask for points totals on an England rugby match and you would get a look but Surrey would list the lot.

Anyone from Norwich or Norfolk remember the Ted Chapman bookies?  They would often let me have a price even when it had just gone.  I guess Chapman Junior judged correctly that I was a loser. You don't get big biros cellotaped and then chained to the ledges these days.
Report TommyBarnes November 27, 2014 11:47 AM GMT
I liked Surrey in the pre mass internet days their ads in the life and post had a good variety of sporting odds (handicaps, totals etc).  Go into Lads etc in 1991 and ask for points totals on an England rugby match and you would get a look but Surrey would list the lot.

Anyone from Norwich or Norfolk remember the Ted Chapman bookies?  They would often let me have a price even when it had just gone.  I guess Chapman Junior judged correctly that I was a loser. You don't get big biros cellotaped and then chained to the ledges these days.
Report Hound-Dog-2 November 27, 2014 2:17 PM GMT
'West-country bookmaker David Pipe Senior sold his chain of betting offices to William Hill and bought Tuckers Farm, a derelict pig farming facility.


From here, he encouraged his only son Martin, to train racehorses and they started off in point-to-points. Following initial successes in the amateur ranks, Martin turned professional trainer and saddled his first winner under rules, Hit Parade to win a Taunton selling hurdle on 9th May 1975'
Report call me a taxi November 27, 2014 8:21 PM GMT
akabula    27 Nov 14 00:57 
You sure taxi? I didn't think city tote came into being until 71 or 72 when they took over the tote shops.
I'm sure it was plain old city bookmakers prior to that.


You may be right.

I moved around a lot and may have the years wrong. When I moved to Cyprus (the district of Newham that the shop was in) it was already there. 

I did shag one of the cashiers though, I remember that.
Report Capt__F November 27, 2014 11:54 PM GMT
remember her name ?
Report themightymac November 28, 2014 12:03 AM GMT
SSP were a rum lot. Shut accounts quicker than anybody.
Report call me a taxi November 28, 2014 12:16 AM GMT
Iirc it was Elaine.
Report kenny mann November 28, 2014 12:25 AM GMT
Surrey Racing. Were they taken over by Bowmans? I know Bowmans owed me money when they went bust.
Report Capt__F November 28, 2014 12:27 AM GMT
U were Glimmer thenCool
Report call me a taxi November 28, 2014 12:29 AM GMT
I thought I was Glimmer earlier than that.
Report kenny mann November 28, 2014 12:30 AM GMT
Windsors. Bet not many remember them. Mentioned in my famous "Lucky Fred" joke.
Report pumphol. November 28, 2014 9:09 AM GMT
Anyone mention Hector Macdonalds
Report Judge Roughneck November 28, 2014 9:14 AM GMT
Another West Country firm - H Backhouse.

They had shops around the West Country and a couple in London (now closed). I think they just have a few shops around Bristol/Wiltshire now.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves November 28, 2014 1:43 PM GMT
They still have a dozen or so shops in the Zummerzet area, Judge, which is why I didn't mention them. They are the Kings of the Blackmore Vale.

There are half a dozen other shops scattered around the W Midlands and Berkshire too.

Used to have excellent concessions in the 1990s (eg paying 4 places when 16-runner h'caps had a non-runner), so I used to channel as many mug and compulsive bets through them as possible to keep the account open. Sod's law came into play, of course, and Jack Berry 2yos always seemed to land the odds when I rang up Backhouse to punt them, so the account got closed as swiftly as the ones with all the other plucky little independents.
Report mrcombustible November 28, 2014 2:19 PM GMT
Luvbet were fantastic, very generous very early prices on every race. They went under after a short time. They used pay you by cheque, think they were from Cork
Report kenny mann November 28, 2014 3:07 PM GMT
Yes, very generous indeed, like Stan James. Trouble is with Stan, take them and they sack you.
Report foxy November 29, 2014 7:55 AM GMT
hard to believe now but back in the mid 80s fred done was a very good bookmaker to deal with.


as mentioned earlier gillibrand of blackpool was a treat to watch operate.
Report foxy November 29, 2014 7:59 AM GMT
alun2005

you mention best of the rest.

my favourite was when it was a photo finish.

out came the board

short head 1/2

head 4/6

neck evens

dead heat 6/4

1/2 length 5/2





he could lay the lot Crazy

and he could lay all 5
Report TheCoat November 29, 2014 11:23 AM GMT





Gillibrand was one of my favorites too
Report stewardsenquirey November 29, 2014 12:36 PM GMT
Amazed nobody has mentioned Jonny Humphreys as of yet.Surely I'm not the only bod from Sarfff of the river.He still makes the odd appearance down at Sunny Crayford(remember him more for pulling in at Catford in his Royce on a Thursday night)
Would always stand a decent bet(but then he could afford to)
Report screaming from beneaththewaves November 29, 2014 4:02 PM GMT
Three proper bookmakers there, TheCoat, plus T&F.

I mean, it was nice the way the dynamic duo appeared from nowhere, laying Tabor at Newmarket in the afternoon and anything you like at the Stow in the evening, but I understand it all got a bit messy in the end.

Here's a name from the loadsamoney 1980s: Dougie Goldstein, trading on the southern rails as Benny Racing, with staff betting in telephone numbers. Anyone know what actually happened to him after he disappeared following that Saturday NH meeting at Ascot? I believe he was supposed to own an aircraft components factory, but that didn't seem to help a number of people who had left the course thinking they were winners.
Report TheCoat November 29, 2014 5:03 PM GMT
Yes T&F bought the number 1 pitch at Newmarket July course when the pitches were allowed to be sold. They always looked like they were crapping themselves. They must have been in far too deep than was comfortable.
Report SlippyBlue November 29, 2014 5:34 PM GMT
Good shout with T&F, they took on the Coolmore mob and got severely punished.

Stewardsenquiry, I knew John Humphries very well. I had dogs at Catford for years as did my Dad. I was never mad keen on Crayford as it was a bit of a pain to get to. I think Chris Ralph has the pitch there who used to clerk for Humphries. He had a shop in Beckenham down the road when I lived there. He was a slippery customer though but I have to say I always liked doing business with him and used to mark his card sometimes and get an inflated price and never got a knock back. I remember his Rolls and he also had a Bentley which I must have paid for a wheel or two over the years. I hardly missed a meeting at Catford for 25 years, it was like a bereavement when the place closed down, my second home.
Report unitedbiscuits November 29, 2014 5:46 PM GMT
Great thread.

Not sure if I'm up to speed on the West Country scene but, to my knowledge Will Rosseff is a director of 365 but devotes three days a week to his sideline - Backhouse bookmakers. Formerly Backhouse of Baker Street. The original shop had a franking machine rather than a regular till. One manager of Mecca Edgware Rd had ten successive winners of 3/4 runner races in the early 1990's - did not get restricted.

There was a bookmaking firm called Wilkins Macawber who had a cluster of shops in the West Country until c 1975, when they sold out to Heathorn, who sold out to Coral. So, if you're in the West Country and see a Coral, quite likely it has that lineage, just as a William Hill shop could have been an old Dave Pipe shop, and a meeting spot for bettors pre legalization. It's a different world now, but Dave Pipe used to take fields in lieu of payment from farmers who would rather lose a leg than be described as a welsher. If you are ever in the centre of Taunton, which is County Stores and Ladbrokes round the corner, the Pipe family own that real estate. Dave pipe senior passed the estate on to David pipe Jr., missing out martin, to avoid tax. Anyway, to meander to a close, Wilkins Macawber was owned by Doug Rosseff, Will's father I believe, and he was a nice avuncular guy, standing at Bristol dogs at Rovers' ground, back along.
Report uncle nasty November 29, 2014 5:53 PM GMT
I thought surrey became skybet

graham liles
Report TheCoat November 29, 2014 5:56 PM GMT
I never threw a losing on course betting ticket away, I've got hundreds of them from many years racing up and down the country. You name a front line pitch from the late eighties to the turn of the century, I've  probably lost to them and kept the ticket. Sad
Report stewardsenquirey November 29, 2014 6:01 PM GMT
Boxing Day down at Catford used to be my Christmas day SlippyBlue.
Loved it,shame it all moved on.
I don't have a problem with getting to Crayford,but I do have a problem with the carnage on that bloody first bend.
It's not dog racing for me,more lucky dip Whoops
Report screaming from beneaththewaves November 29, 2014 7:23 PM GMT
Thanks for clearing up Roseff's relationship with Backhouse and Bet365, unitedbiscuits. I knew there was a connection, but wasn't sure what it was exactly.

I never knew those impressive buildings in North St, Taunton, which house the County Stores and Ladbrokes next door, had the Pipes as landlords. Fascinating. One day during the summer I was in that Ladbrokes shop when a chap started talking to me who I'm almost sure was Derek Button, who, with his brother, used to bet under the Fred Button sign in the West Country. The trouble is, I'd not seen Derek for years and I'm almost completely deaf now, so I'm not 100% sure who the nervous chap talking 19 to the dozen at me really was.

It never helped in identifying bookmakers that so few bet under their real name. One on-course character was a fellow known universally as Conky, who was also Yeovil Town Crier. I can't remember what his real name was, but it certainly wasn't Mike Loveless, which was the one above his joint. If you went to the Mansion House in Princes St, Yeovil, you'd be visiting the offices of Mike Loveless Commissioning Agent. You got the impression that this pillar of the community preferred not to be known as even a commission agent, never mind a bookmaker.

I don't know what Conky was like away from the punters, but on racecourse evidence I'd nominate him as West Country entrant for the title of Bookmaker Least Suited To A Career In Public Relations. From the South East you'd need an eliminator between Lulu Mendoza and his son Mickey. In the north the name Bryan Hazell springs to mind, but he could be most polite and sociable when, for instance, discussing the draw bias at Thirsk. On the other hand, when Eddie Fremantle used to turn up at places like Hexham, Hazell would put his bets down to "Cockney Koont".
Report call me a taxi November 29, 2014 7:37 PM GMT
Laugh
Report unitedbiscuits November 29, 2014 7:42 PM GMT
screaming from beneath the waves - You have a knowledge far wider than mine. Entertaining stories too.
I often wonder what became of John Pegley. Anyone who went racing a few years ago would have heard him shouting the odds. he wouldn't even have to raise his voice now..
Report The Pinhooker November 29, 2014 7:57 PM GMT
If memory serves, John Pegley was the undisputed "knockout-king" around the southern courses many moons ago.  Great bookie......
Report FOYLESWAR November 29, 2014 8:06 PM GMT
as a nipper in the 60s there was a dodgy looking chap (Arthur daley type ) hanging about on a nearby estate ,and as a kid I wondered why people were giving him bits of paper and money and once in a blue moon he would hand someone money ,when I asked a mate who he was and what does he do ,he replied its jim the bookie he collects money ! I should have taken the hint !
Report unitedbiscuits November 29, 2014 8:19 PM GMT
Pinhooker - he was a "knockout" doctor. EW multiples @ SP in the shops.
Report Capt__F November 29, 2014 8:21 PM GMT
Conky Woods
Legend
Report uncle nasty November 29, 2014 8:28 PM GMT
terry Dewhirst and his rugby league coupon
Report screaming from beneaththewaves November 29, 2014 8:36 PM GMT
The last I remember of Pegley was when he was working with an Australian art dealer called Wayne Heathcote, who used to turn up in the English rings at intervals over the years betting/laying very big sums.

Heathcote had also worked with a layer called Terry Barfoot back in the loadsamoney 1980s. It was an extraordinary time, when standing by the rails at Plumoton and laying a bet of £50,000 to £40,000 in an amateur riders' chase was routine.

The last I heard of Barfoot he was running a newsagent's.
Report ribero1 November 29, 2014 9:56 PM GMT
Uncle nasty,you're right Surrey did become Skybet.The original Surrey was run by a guy called Mervyn Wilson I think.My pal bought Surrey off him purely for the offshore license,think it was based in Alderney,there were a few betting shops and a couple of hotels I recall,he sold them all and just kept the license,took a load of guys from Hills and set up in Harrogate and sold it to sky a couple of years later for 30 odd million,he knew very little about bookmaking but understood the internet and the way things were going.
Report ronnie rails November 29, 2014 10:22 PM GMT
ribero

re Mervin and surrey racing, one of their biggest golf punters won more on the open the year seve won it than seve did for winning it!

Jeremy Champman did an article about it in the old sporting life, he used to bet with your old gov, never seen him since the day Frankel won at York. Have you seen him about.
Report ribero1 November 29, 2014 10:34 PM GMT
Hi Ronnie,no I haven't.
Report alun2005 November 29, 2014 11:26 PM GMT
Nice one Foxy re: Gillibrand
Report gibs November 30, 2014 12:09 AM GMT
Turner and Kendrick...eventually sold up to Star Sports
Report call me a taxi November 30, 2014 12:32 AM GMT
^^^

Used to hedge with them a few years ago.
Report themightymac November 30, 2014 5:08 AM GMT
Think Bernstein are now a hedging firm and text provider to Independents.
Report ribero1 November 30, 2014 9:49 AM GMT
Ronnie,you will remember the Bob Kett firm well,i went to Arthur Ketts funeral last week,he was a good friend.Thinking back to the surrey-Sky deal it will have been a fair bit more than 30 odd million I mentioned.
Report ronnie rails November 30, 2014 11:57 AM GMT
always like to reminisce about the old days of on and off course books, here is a firm that are no longer with us Korals bookmakers, we do still have Korals arcades!!
Report akabula December 1, 2014 3:13 AM GMT
unitedbiscuits

Great thread.

Not sure if I'm up to speed on the West Country scene but, to my knowledge Will Rosseff is a director of 365 but devotes three days a week to his sideline - Backhouse bookmakers. Formerly Backhouse of Baker Street. The original shop had a franking machine rather than a regular till. One manager of Mecca Edgware Rd had ten successive winners of 3/4 runner races in the early 1990's - did not get restricted.



That was Mecca's flagship shop and in those days the managers were on a real healthy commission as well as top wages.
It was paid every 6 months at first then yearly and whoever managed that shop copped for an extra year or twos wages every year.
Report themightymac December 1, 2014 4:29 AM GMT
Tony Queen (Glasgow)
Report themightymac December 1, 2014 4:30 AM GMT
Bula, do you remember a smaller Independent named Barratts who had shops in the Lothian area in the 70s? If you do, are they still trading?
Report romajude December 1, 2014 11:47 AM GMT
How about some of these names from the East Anglia.
Teeny Manning - Ipswich dogs and horse tracks.
Bill Hobley - Ipswich dogs then possibly Crayford or Maidstone.
Herbert Cattermole - Ipswich dogs remember him using paper sheets with runners written on an black paper strip for prices!
Tom Layzell (Ken) - Ipswich dogs plus two shops. Would lay a good bet. Cut my teeth in his shop back in the 80s.
Grog - Yarmouth and Swaffham Dogs
Arthur Thompson - Yarmouth dogs (recently passed away).
Duggie Pye - Yarmouth dogs and horses.
H. Gallant - Yarmouth dogs. smothered everyone in chalk.
A.J.H. - Yarmouth dogs - always completely different prices to everyone else.
Futters off course firm Yarmouth area.
Alan Bunney off course firm in Norfolk.
John Slapp off course Norwich area.
Ted Chapman off course firm Norfolk.
Mike Botwright of Bungay recently sold up.
Krullinds of Ipswich. Loved working for them. First shop I worked in was size of a postage stamp. No camera, no burglar alarm, Genie settler( never did get the hang of round robins on that), shop was always packed out. company owned by a lovely guy Bert Hatcher who was always trying to out do the big firms. only a hobby business to him. Made his money selling insurance to American servicemen on local bases.
Report TheCoat December 1, 2014 12:18 PM GMT



Bring back memories romajude ?
Report democrat November 1, 2016 1:49 PM GMT
How many 'slips'do you reckon you have Coat ? There used to be very many littering the floor behind glass in the museum at Cheltenham - dont know if they are still there.
Report Alices November 1, 2016 7:30 PM GMT
Some from Peterborough area

Scotney
Bridgefoots
R T Hall
Eagle Racing
Cracknells
Braybrooks
Report akabula November 1, 2016 8:38 PM GMT
themightymac
Bula, do you remember a smaller Independent named Barratts who had shops in the Lothian area in the 70s? If you do, are they still trading?


Only just saw this, no wonder you think I'm slow.
Not sure but there was a bookie in Dundee until recently traded with that name. Had 6 or 7 shops at most.
I actually knew him, stays on the road to the Ferry, and was in his house where he runs the credit side of his business from on a few occasions.
Report akabula November 1, 2016 8:41 PM GMT
There was an independent based in Edinburgh with 20 odds shops who sold out to Hills.
Baratts ringing a bell as the name.
Report zorrostrikes November 1, 2016 11:28 PM GMT
adding 15 percent to all your bets? was it vat? can't remember.
limits on winnings too.
Report crags November 1, 2016 11:32 PM GMT
Betting tax was 10% as I remember. One could choose to pay it on striking the bet, or on any returns on said bet.
Optimists paid it on the first mentioned above.
Report akabula November 1, 2016 11:33 PM GMT
The first bookies I ever bet in had ridiculous place limits for ew bets.
3/1 a place in h/caps 16+ runners and 5/2 all other races.
Report akabula November 1, 2016 11:39 PM GMT
I remember when the actual tax collected by the government was 6.75% of stakes and the bookies charged 9%.
The only 15% I know of is the current situation but that is a tax on bookies profits and not stakes.
Report crags November 1, 2016 11:44 PM GMT
Bookies definitely used to charge 10% tax, may have been reduced later before it was scrapped.
Report Capt__F November 1, 2016 11:47 PM GMT
didn't realise you a young pup crags
Report akabula November 1, 2016 11:48 PM GMT
Wasn't saying they didn't crags but I don't know what the government actually took.
I remember it at 6.75% and 8. something but 9% was the only one I could remember the actual tax the government took.
Report Capt__F November 1, 2016 11:57 PM GMT
stake 90p tax 9p Evs win 1.80
stake £1 no tax return 1.80

pay on
Report Capt__F November 1, 2016 11:57 PM GMT
stake 90p tax 9p Evs win 1.80
stake £1 no tax return 1.80

pay on
Report crags November 2, 2016 12:01 AM GMT
Are you drunk?
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:04 AM GMT
Would be £1 at evens pays £2 less 18p tax = £1.82
Report crags November 2, 2016 12:10 AM GMT
Stake £10- tax £1 = £11 pay on. Odds 3/1 horse wins= return of £40. Profit £29

Same £10 stake with tax paid on winnings = £40 - tax of £4=£36 . profit of £26
Report Capt__F November 2, 2016 12:13 AM GMT
10% tax
Report Capt__F November 2, 2016 12:13 AM GMT
and yes i have had a few
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:16 AM GMT
You are paying £1 less in the second bet.
Putting the £11 on to level; it out returns £44 less £4.40 deduction = £39.60.
So £28.60 profit v £29.00 if tax paid.
Report Capt__F November 2, 2016 12:19 AM GMT
ie better to pay tax 1st ?
Report crags November 2, 2016 12:21 AM GMT
lol I've tried to make it as simple as possible. the stake is £10 not £11, the tax doesn't count as part of the stake!
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:21 AM GMT
Yes
Report crags November 2, 2016 12:22 AM GMT

Nov 2, 2016 -- 1:19AM, Capt__F wrote:


ie better to pay tax 1st ?


only for optimists Wink

Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:23 AM GMT
In the bookies tax returns crags a £10 bet with the tax of 10% paid on is shown in the stakes as £11.
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:26 AM GMT
ie it is rung up on the till as £11 and the till tally at the end of the day less/plus over/rings/under/rings are classed as stakes.
Report crags November 2, 2016 12:26 AM GMT

Nov 2, 2016 -- 1:23AM, akabula wrote:


In the bookies tax returns crags a £10 bet with the tax of 10% paid on is shown in the stakes as £11.


No, it's a £10 bet, the other pound is the tax.

an £11 bet, if anyone in their right mind would have one, would cost £12.10.

Report Capt__F November 2, 2016 12:28 AM GMT
aka has filled in many a monthly return to Greenock imo -all on line these days and 1/4ly
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:29 AM GMT
crags I was a bookie and the £10 plus £1 is rung up as £11 and that is the part you pay tax on.
BTW if you see an old bookies rules it stated the deduction (not tax) is to cover tax and running costs.
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:33 AM GMT
Was by post and weekly when I did it.
Report Capt__F November 2, 2016 12:33 AM GMT
pigeon ?
Report crags November 2, 2016 12:38 AM GMT
Laugh sorry to laugh, aka,but if I had a £10 bet in the days that we used to pay 10% betting tax, then my bet would still be £10, that is what one would have to pay tax on- not complicated at all- so I would have to hand over £11 if I decided to pay the tax up front. You can't then try to tax it again on the sum of £11!

You must be very tired or maybe very drunk? Not going to mention stupid Wink
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:44 AM GMT
It's you that's being stupid crags. The bookies deduction is just that a deduction and notional in actual fact.
The bookie pays tax at about 7% on his total stakes as run up on his till.
So if he has 2 customers both betting in £10s with one paying tax on and the other not and they both have 5 bets with no winners then £105 in total will be run up. If he did no more business that week he'd send his return off showing stakes of £105 and would pay tax on that amount at whatever the rate was ie less than the 10I% he charged the customers.
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:46 AM GMT
sorry less than the 10% he charged the customers.
Report Capt__F November 2, 2016 12:47 AM GMT
so crags 10% tax

Evs winner

stake 10.00 no tax paid u trouser 18.00
stake  9. oo tax paid9.90 u trouser 18.00

aka don't give a fig if u pay tax or not on his return its 9,90 or 10.00 better for the punter to pay tax on - some do some don't or rather did
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:48 AM GMT
Lots of customers actually think the bookie takes the deduction he charges for paid on bets and that deducted from non paid on bets winnings and puts it aside.
The bookie only lists total stakes as rung up on the till and the nett total of returns.
Report crags November 2, 2016 12:50 AM GMT
We're not talking about  about bookies reductions though, are we?

it's about the punters choice of paying the 10% when placing the bet, or paying it on any winning that they might have.

Simples
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:50 AM GMT
At 10% it favoured he punter to pay tax when placing the bet.
Report crags November 2, 2016 12:51 AM GMT
fooking hard work on here Sad

Glad to get to bed Happy
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:53 AM GMT
Gave him a 1% advantage
Report akabula November 2, 2016 12:55 AM GMT
You must have been a losing punter crags. Laugh
Report Capt__F November 2, 2016 12:55 AM GMT
wasted
Report crags November 2, 2016 12:57 AM GMT
Jesus H Christ.
Report Capt__F November 2, 2016 1:00 AM GMT
he paid on trust me
Report akabula November 2, 2016 1:00 AM GMT
You ever bet a winner crags. You know the old saying lucky in love ........... then again Annie koed ye as well. Laugh
Report crags November 2, 2016 1:06 AM GMT
Why oh why do I even bother to converse with these clowns? Sad

Night Love
Report akabula November 2, 2016 1:18 AM GMT
Good-night. Mind and turn off yer alertometer in case Annie comes on later. Don't want it waking you up.
Report digdeep November 2, 2016 2:50 AM GMT
John Banks
Report timbuctooth November 2, 2016 3:35 AM GMT
If the horse is going to win, pay the tax on with your stake.
If the horse is not going to win, why are you backing it?
Report screaming from beneaththewaves November 2, 2016 9:49 AM GMT
Christ almighty, crags.

The rest of the world was handing over £99 to get £180 back on an even money winner, yet you would have honestly preferred handing over £100. And worse than that, been trying to argue with the other customers that you weren't the thickest man in the shop.
Report crags November 2, 2016 5:06 PM GMT
Eh?

I was explaining about the betting tax option of paying with the stake or on any returns. Nothing more, nothing less.
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