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19 Jan 10
18:04
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14 Sep 04
You often hear commentators declare a player needs to put topspin on the white to gain good position for the next ball.
And yet one cannot impart topspin to a cueball with a cue, such a feat is physically impossible. Does anyone disagree?
And yet one cannot impart topspin to a cueball with a cue, such a feat is physically impossible. Does anyone disagree?
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possibly but i suspect topspin can be imparted on to a cue ball the same way as a golf ball
Anyway the draw shot in golf is not top spin, it is spin applied to the right hand side of the ball, the ball then alters into a forward momentum through the air.
Thank you for answering my question, LFC.
Naturally, I disagree with your suspicions. In fact, I am certain that topspin (overspin) is impossible when actioned with a cuetip.
Naturally, I disagree with your suspicions. In fact, I am certain that topspin (overspin) is impossible when actioned with a cuetip.
With respect Angel Gabriel i happen to play golf to quite a high standard and can play any of these shots without your explanation,
thankyou
thankyou
For you to apply topspin in golf. A wide area of the face of the club must whip over the curve of the golf ball.
Imagine table tennis, you need to whip the bat around the ball. Something which is impossible in snooker.
Imagine table tennis, you need to whip the bat around the ball. Something which is impossible in snooker.
With respect Angel Gabriel i happen to play golf to quite a high standard and can play any of these shots without your explanation,
thankyou
You should no that the draw shot is not initiated as top spin then. It is a right hand spin to transfer the ball right to left.
thankyou
You should no that the draw shot is not initiated as top spin then. It is a right hand spin to transfer the ball right to left.
Well the good news is my hot lodger has asked me to teach her how to play to pool, so I shall quite willingly provide videos of detailed testing next week, live from Reardon's.
Angel Gabrial
when a golfer hits a draw it is not possible to get right to left spin without topspin
when a golfer hits a draw it is not possible to get right to left spin without topspin
Here's an example of correct teaching technique, CL.
LFC
The golf ball is hit from the bottom of the ball upwards to give it elevation. No topspin is initiated at the moment of strike.
You can't impart topspin on a golf ball unless you top it. Hopefully this helps your game.
The golf ball is hit from the bottom of the ball upwards to give it elevation. No topspin is initiated at the moment of strike.
You can't impart topspin on a golf ball unless you top it. Hopefully this helps your game.
Angel Gabrial
i am sorry but just a small ex. that may surpriseyou. To get backspin on a golf ball you hit down on it..to get topspin hit up
i am sorry but just a small ex. that may surpriseyou. To get backspin on a golf ball you hit down on it..to get topspin hit up
A top spin is done by hitting the spot that is slightly above the equator of the golf ball. But using a driver to hit that kind of shots have no benefits in trajectory or distance to your game.
I think perhaps what your talking about is getting the ball to "turn over".
This doesnt actually turn over nor does it have top spin.
This doesnt actually turn over nor does it have top spin.
A Golfer always has a distance advantage if he can hit the driver correctly with a slight draw,especially on good fairways because the ball will travel further on landing
This is even still the case now when modern technology has evened things out
Referring to a draw shot. Either left or right handed player will hit the ball from the inside out meaning the club travelling away from their bodies.
This creates a spin for a right hander that would be inclined to turn counter clockwise and make the ball travel from right to left. When you do this the axis of the spin of the ball will turn much like a frisbee does when you throw it. It falls off to one side. Or skipping a rock, much the same, it doesn't stay flat. The ball travels the same way but in no way does it actually become top spin, it just merely rotates so that the ball has less direct backspin when it lands so that it will roll much further when it hits the ground since the resistance and backspin has turned slightly.
This creates a spin for a right hander that would be inclined to turn counter clockwise and make the ball travel from right to left. When you do this the axis of the spin of the ball will turn much like a frisbee does when you throw it. It falls off to one side. Or skipping a rock, much the same, it doesn't stay flat. The ball travels the same way but in no way does it actually become top spin, it just merely rotates so that the ball has less direct backspin when it lands so that it will roll much further when it hits the ground since the resistance and backspin has turned slightly.
Angel Gabrael
Actually surprisingly most right handers especially amateurs have the tendency to impart clockwise spin on the ball leading to a weak fade or slice. The exact opposite of what you suggest
Actually surprisingly most right handers especially amateurs have the tendency to impart clockwise spin on the ball leading to a weak fade or slice. The exact opposite of what you suggest
I'll bid you both farewell. Many thanks for your company this evening, gentlemen.
Thanks Pokermaster and Angel Gabral..goodnight from me to
Actually surprisingly most right handers especially amateurs have the tendency to impart clockwise spin on the ball leading to a weak fade or slice. The exact opposite of what you suggest
I was however only referring to a draw shot.
However referring to the unintended fade. A simple grip change can correct this. If the right hand V turns slightly over anti clockwise. This will encourage the swing away from an out to in swing, avoiding the fade.
I was however only referring to a draw shot.
However referring to the unintended fade. A simple grip change can correct this. If the right hand V turns slightly over anti clockwise. This will encourage the swing away from an out to in swing, avoiding the fade.
All the things going on in the world:
Nurses commiting suicide.
Child Abuse
Trouble in Northern Ireland brewing again
The paucity of white dog poo on our streets and gardens...
And a thread about cueball topspin gets nearly 600 posts and counting.
The World's gone mad
Nurses commiting suicide.
Child Abuse
Trouble in Northern Ireland brewing again
The paucity of white dog poo on our streets and gardens...
And a thread about cueball topspin gets nearly 600 posts and counting.
The World's gone mad
Pokermaster
I have had a quick look at some of the posts here and it seems that nobody seems to understand what topspin means. Let me give an example.If i was to ask someone to roll a snooker ball down the table using a finger they would instinctively set the ball in motion by running their finger up and slightly over the back of the ball to get the ball moving.This means the finger stays in contact for a slightly longer time than if the ball is just tapped.This is similar to the technique a snooker player uses when applying topspin.When a skilled player applies topspin correctly the cue is in contact with the ball for a fraction of a second longer than for a normal shot.This has the effect of increasing the sweet spot the cue strikes leading to a truer and more pure and powerful contact.
This is what professional players do instinctively even if they do not know why
I have had a quick look at some of the posts here and it seems that nobody seems to understand what topspin means. Let me give an example.If i was to ask someone to roll a snooker ball down the table using a finger they would instinctively set the ball in motion by running their finger up and slightly over the back of the ball to get the ball moving.This means the finger stays in contact for a slightly longer time than if the ball is just tapped.This is similar to the technique a snooker player uses when applying topspin.When a skilled player applies topspin correctly the cue is in contact with the ball for a fraction of a second longer than for a normal shot.This has the effect of increasing the sweet spot the cue strikes leading to a truer and more pure and powerful contact.
This is what professional players do instinctively even if they do not know why
by running their finger up and slightly over the back of the ball to get the ball moving
How is this possible with the tip of the cue? think about it.
How is this possible with the tip of the cue? think about it.
Angel Gabrial please read carefully,i plainly stated that the cue is in contact with the ball for a fraction of a second longer than with a normal shot.This is all it takes.Incidentally it is perfectly easy to reproduce with the tip of the cue the same as a finger tip
i suggest you think of doing it in slow motion if this makes it easier for you
If you attempted this shot, the ferrel of the cue would be in contact with the cue ball causing a miscue.
I would rather debate this with someone who understands the mechanics of the sphere.
As you have stated `you are rubbish at snooker`. You must give away many a penalty while cursing your tip.
I would rather debate this with someone who understands the mechanics of the sphere.
As you have stated `you are rubbish at snooker`. You must give away many a penalty while cursing your tip.
Angel Gabrial you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding.I have told you that when played correctly there is a greater sweet spot for the cue to hit therefore making when playing a powerful shot a miscue less likely.This is why professional players do it.
It is a difficult technique but is not so for a professional
Lfc
Pokermonster was a professional snooker and pool player.
Top spin in table tennis yes. Top spin in snooker no. You can not get over the cue ball with the tip. Anything else is just forward roll.
Pokermonster was a professional snooker and pool player.
Top spin in table tennis yes. Top spin in snooker no. You can not get over the cue ball with the tip. Anything else is just forward roll.
and although i say it is difficult it is also something every player even of average ability does instinctively even without knowing it
Angel Gabrael
Pokermaster may very well have been a very fine player...but i would say that at least 90% of professional players do not really understand this..it is done instinctively by them almost as soon as they started playing
Pokermaster may very well have been a very fine player...but i would say that at least 90% of professional players do not really understand this..it is done instinctively by them almost as soon as they started playing
Think of a car wheel spinning. Would you say that that shot you have described is capable of such an action?
However if you played the bananas/massey shot then you can gain a similar action but with side spin.
However if you played the bananas/massey shot then you can gain a similar action but with side spin.
Angel Gabrial i will have to say goodnight,thanks for the feedback maybe we can continue again
Maybe just to say that it is possible that there is no such thing as backspin...just topspin applied to the underside of the ball
There is no reverse spin until the white ball gathers momentum spin off the object ball.
Angel Gabrial you might as well say that their is no topspin until the white ball gathers momentum spin off the object ball.
You only use the term reverse spin because of where the player is standing. In truth of course the cue ball has no knowledge of where the player is standing.
You only use the term reverse spin because of where the player is standing. In truth of course the cue ball has no knowledge of where the player is standing.
There is one more important thing in relation to topspin. You might say that if the cue is in contact with the ball(albeit for only a fraction of a second)longer than a normal shot then is this not technically a push shot? The answer is no and for this reason.
With a push shot really the cue ball is moved..pushed..without it really spinning. But with a topspin shot the ball starts to spin,again for a fraction of a sec. before it moves.This is something that i am not sure even professional players are aware off.
With a push shot really the cue ball is moved..pushed..without it really spinning. But with a topspin shot the ball starts to spin,again for a fraction of a sec. before it moves.This is something that i am not sure even professional players are aware off.
But with a topspin shot the ball starts to spin,again for a fraction of a sec.
I think that you are mistaking `spin` for rotation. Just because the ball is rotating does not classify it in this sense as spin.
I think that you are mistaking `spin` for rotation. Just because the ball is rotating does not classify it in this sense as spin.
Angel Gabrial you might as well say that their is no topspin until the white ball gathers momentum spin off the object ball.
Incorrect as the object ball that the cue ball is colliding into acts as a barrier which would negate any topspin.
However with backspin. The object ball the cue ball is colliding into acts as an assistance for the reverse rotation of the cueball to `screw it back`
Incorrect as the object ball that the cue ball is colliding into acts as a barrier which would negate any topspin.
However with backspin. The object ball the cue ball is colliding into acts as an assistance for the reverse rotation of the cueball to `screw it back`
Angel Gabriel as i stated the cue ball has no knowledge of where the player is standing.Your answer seems determined not to even try to understand what i am saying
You say i mistake spin for rotation..it is you who are mistaken.As i said rotation means forward movement..spin means reduced forward movement
.spin means reduced forward movement
Spin is a gathering of energy buy increased rotation creating an increased acceleration in trajectory.
Spin is a gathering of energy buy increased rotation creating an increased acceleration in trajectory.
But with a topspin shot the ball starts to spin,again for a fraction of a sec. before it moves.This is something that i am not sure even professional players are aware off.
Because it never does. Unless you cue down on the white ball with the butt of the cue in the air striking down with a touch of side. If applying right hand side, on striking the cue ball it start it`s journey being directed left before gathering `spin` momentum on the spot and then momentum being released into and acceleration to the right via a curve of trajectory.
Hence the banana shot. With a normal bridge hand no overspin of a forward direction can be generated.
Because it never does. Unless you cue down on the white ball with the butt of the cue in the air striking down with a touch of side. If applying right hand side, on striking the cue ball it start it`s journey being directed left before gathering `spin` momentum on the spot and then momentum being released into and acceleration to the right via a curve of trajectory.
Hence the banana shot. With a normal bridge hand no overspin of a forward direction can be generated.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you for your continued interest.
LFC: First of all, many thanks indeed for taking the time to read all the way through my thread. It is much appreciated, sir. I'll address the comments you have made, above.
Although you put up a well-reasoned argument, it is a mistake to assume that a cuetip stays in contact with the cueball fractionally longer than a centre ball strike. Please do not take this as a criticism of your scientific knowledge, I understand that you are debating from a purely theoretical standpoint whereas I, on the other hand, enjoy the tremendous advantage of ultra high-speed camera equipment, my own pool room in which to practice, and many years of study to iron out my own many and frequent errors of judgement.
In fact, if anything, a cuetip remains in contact with the cueball for slightly less time when striking above centre (though I should stress we are talking miniscule margins here). This is because the tip significantly compresses upon impact (as does the white itself to a lesser extent) and as this compression reduces the further one travels above the white's centre of mass, so does the cuetip's contact duration with the cueball.
On the subject of push shots, they only tend to occur when the cueball is touching an object ball and the cueist fails to play away, thus moving the colour. This is actually permissable in American pool by the way. Nearly all other instances erroneously labled push shots are, in fact, double-hit fouls. I am aware of this for two reasons: one, the geeky camera stuff mentioned above; and two, the cueball's subsequent deflection path is the smoking gun if one knows how to analyse such things.
One last point. Not that it matters much, but although Angel Gabrial is correct in nearly everything he has written on the thread, he flatters me when he wrote pool professional and snooker professional. It was just pool. I was a features writer for many snooker magazines, but never a professional player.
Many thanks again for your contributions.
LFC: First of all, many thanks indeed for taking the time to read all the way through my thread. It is much appreciated, sir. I'll address the comments you have made, above.
Although you put up a well-reasoned argument, it is a mistake to assume that a cuetip stays in contact with the cueball fractionally longer than a centre ball strike. Please do not take this as a criticism of your scientific knowledge, I understand that you are debating from a purely theoretical standpoint whereas I, on the other hand, enjoy the tremendous advantage of ultra high-speed camera equipment, my own pool room in which to practice, and many years of study to iron out my own many and frequent errors of judgement.
In fact, if anything, a cuetip remains in contact with the cueball for slightly less time when striking above centre (though I should stress we are talking miniscule margins here). This is because the tip significantly compresses upon impact (as does the white itself to a lesser extent) and as this compression reduces the further one travels above the white's centre of mass, so does the cuetip's contact duration with the cueball.
On the subject of push shots, they only tend to occur when the cueball is touching an object ball and the cueist fails to play away, thus moving the colour. This is actually permissable in American pool by the way. Nearly all other instances erroneously labled push shots are, in fact, double-hit fouls. I am aware of this for two reasons: one, the geeky camera stuff mentioned above; and two, the cueball's subsequent deflection path is the smoking gun if one knows how to analyse such things.
One last point. Not that it matters much, but although Angel Gabrial is correct in nearly everything he has written on the thread, he flatters me when he wrote pool professional and snooker professional. It was just pool. I was a features writer for many snooker magazines, but never a professional player.
Many thanks again for your contributions.
Good evening Pokermaster,and thankyou for your very entertaining thread
If i may address the point of the amount of time the cue tip is in contact with the ball for for normal verses topspin shots i agree when you say that the tip compresses on contact. And of course it seem logical that this compression is fractionally longer for a
centre strike. However it may seem counter-intuitive but the reality is different for this reason..
Certainly if both the centre and above centre shots were played in the same way what you say would be true.However the 2 shots are not played in the same way and it is the action used by a skilled snooker player when playing topspin that means that the cue tip is in contact for a fraction of a second longer
The subject of push shots is not really material to the question and was just an aside in my general explanation
If i may address the point of the amount of time the cue tip is in contact with the ball for for normal verses topspin shots i agree when you say that the tip compresses on contact. And of course it seem logical that this compression is fractionally longer for a
centre strike. However it may seem counter-intuitive but the reality is different for this reason..
Certainly if both the centre and above centre shots were played in the same way what you say would be true.However the 2 shots are not played in the same way and it is the action used by a skilled snooker player when playing topspin that means that the cue tip is in contact for a fraction of a second longer
The subject of push shots is not really material to the question and was just an aside in my general explanation
Good evening, LFC.
The two strokes are played in the same way, sir, the only difference being a player raises his bridge accordingly. Your belief that a professional somehow rides up and over the cueball (however slight) is an erroneous one. Such an action would, as Angel Gabrial pointed out earlier, invariably cause a miscue.
The two strokes are played in the same way, sir, the only difference being a player raises his bridge accordingly. Your belief that a professional somehow rides up and over the cueball (however slight) is an erroneous one. Such an action would, as Angel Gabrial pointed out earlier, invariably cause a miscue.
I am sorry but you may as well say that a miscue is liable when playing a shot with backspin..as indeed it is for a poor player. However we are not talking about a poorly played shot but a well played one
A backspin shot is a very different animal regards potential miscues, LFC, for the obvious reason that more of the cueball's mass is above the contact point. This fact makes miscues far less likely.
Evening Gents
lfc
Backspin is not generated by hitting the cueball alone. Hitting the cue ball near the bottom creates only reverse roll.
The backspin is generated on contact with the object ball. On hitting the cue ball alone at the bottom only creates the drag shot.
lfc
Backspin is not generated by hitting the cueball alone. Hitting the cue ball near the bottom creates only reverse roll.
The backspin is generated on contact with the object ball. On hitting the cue ball alone at the bottom only creates the drag shot.
possibly so,but as i am sure you know there is the real possibility of the ball jumping up and leaving the table!! Likewise with topspin the possibility of slipping off the cue ball.This is not really relevant
Angel Gabrael good evening
What happens to the cue ball hitting anything else in the universe is immaterial
What happens to the cue ball hitting anything else in the universe is immaterial
Without hitting an object ball not energy is transferred into spin.
Imagine a backspin shot at golf. The club need to strike under the ball with a lofted club such as a sand wedge. In snooker the cue does not go under the ball.
Imagine a backspin shot at golf. The club need to strike under the ball with a lofted club such as a sand wedge. In snooker the cue does not go under the ball.
Angel Gabrial
I may seem a little offhand but i am not going to answer that point again
I may seem a little offhand but i am not going to answer that point again
ok let me just say again..to create backspin on a golf ball you hit down on it...the opposite of what you assume!
ok let me just say again..to create backspin on a golf ball you hit down on it...the opposite of what you assume!
Now i know you are on the wind up.
Did i say that you hit up the golf ball up to create back spin? This would be the opposite.
So do you believe that similarly in snooker you have to hit down on the cueball to create spin?
Now i know you are on the wind up.
Did i say that you hit up the golf ball up to create back spin? This would be the opposite.
So do you believe that similarly in snooker you have to hit down on the cueball to create spin?
Also creating spin on a golfball means the ball leaving the earth and spinning through the air.
This shot would be problematic on the green baize.
This shot would be problematic on the green baize.
Angel Gabrael
Inever at any point mentioned hitting the golf ball up..mearly hitting slightly down with the golf club.
Much as one does with a snooker cue
Inever at any point mentioned hitting the golf ball up..mearly hitting slightly down with the golf club.
Much as one does with a snooker cue
Certainly on ocasions when i have played snooker the cue ball has to my amazement left the green baise
and occassionally the table itself!!
and occassionally the table itself!!
Most centre ball shots or lower, if struck at anything above a moderate pace, leave the bed of the table.
Pokermaster i have to go for this evening,and thanks again,
...try and keep Angel Gabrael away from golf please
...try and keep Angel Gabrael away from golf please
Good night, LFC.
Thank you for your continued interest in the thread.
Thank you for your continued interest in the thread.
It's not EXACTLY relevant but I'd like you all to know that I once flipped a coin to decided who broke and it landed, from some height, on it's edge.
LFC
To gain back spin the lofted golf club goes under the golf ball as i explained.
Not sure why you think the club just comes down on the ball without going under it. Why would you deny follow through. Anyway here it is simplified for you.
http://www.videojug.com/film/golf-how-to-get-backspin
To gain back spin the lofted golf club goes under the golf ball as i explained.
Not sure why you think the club just comes down on the ball without going under it. Why would you deny follow through. Anyway here it is simplified for you.
http://www.videojug.com/film/golf-how-to-get-backspin
Clunge
When you flipped the coin did it must have had forward spin? when it landed did it collide with any objects or come to a standstill touching your shoe?
When you flipped the coin did it must have had forward spin? when it landed did it collide with any objects or come to a standstill touching your shoe?
I can think of many reasons to deny follow through.
Sat in some chocolate cake is the plausible explanation I can come up with though. There was a great video a few years back of some bloke in white chino's who'd clearly properly shat himself, and two blokes were pursuing him with a camera. "Mate, you've shat yourself!"
"No, someone else did, I sat in it, that part I accept", was his somewhat unlikely explanation.
Sat in some chocolate cake is the plausible explanation I can come up with though. There was a great video a few years back of some bloke in white chino's who'd clearly properly shat himself, and two blokes were pursuing him with a camera. "Mate, you've shat yourself!"
"No, someone else did, I sat in it, that part I accept", was his somewhat unlikely explanation.
It landed on the table. The coin that is. Not the follow through.
Pokermonster
I am sure that you could have made it at snooker.
Interesting spherical observations being shared. It`s all good.
I am sure that you could have made it at snooker.
Interesting spherical observations being shared. It`s all good.
Clunge
We are EMailing this thread to Rishi Persad for the discussion of the fallacy of topspin being highlighted by the snooker authorities.
However your tale of the chino guy following through and unintentionally potting the brown could be the talking point for John Parrot.
We are EMailing this thread to Rishi Persad for the discussion of the fallacy of topspin being highlighted by the snooker authorities.
However your tale of the chino guy following through and unintentionally potting the brown could be the talking point for John Parrot.
On its edge resting against a cushion I presume you mean, CH, not standing upright in the middle of the table?
No PM, on the table. Not near a cushion. It was a pound coin, which makes it slightly less weird bit I was still...whoah!
You would have burned at the stake as a witch for stuff like that four-hundred years ago.
The 2013 world championship starts today. I predict very few topspin shots, if any.
Hopefully Hendry's been working on his punditry. Lot of room for improvement based on what I saw a few months ago, imo
For me, they've let him do too much too soon.
He's ok passing comment as an assistant commentator and not too bad with Hazel and SD/JP/KD in the studio but terrible doing the one-to-one interviews
He's ok passing comment as an assistant commentator and not too bad with Hazel and SD/JP/KD in the studio but terrible doing the one-to-one interviews
Can't fault him on his knowledge but needs to work on his delivery and persona, imo
Just bumping a few threads I wanted to save from the upgrade. My apologies for cluttering the forum.
Not long until this year's World Championships. I won't be here during the tournament so just making my annual thread bump a bit early.
Good evening.
Good evening.
There are a few 'blasts from the past' on this thread, I wonder if some still post under different names?
I wonder if V4 Vendetta (AKA Goring) ever made it to his country retreat to try out my topspin test? :)
It's a shame the forum seems so quiet lately, I recall fielding questions and insults nineteen to the dozen back in the day! :)
A thread about snooker gets 700 replies and 10000 views! WTF? 
PM - You're a legend in your own lunchtime!
PM - You're a legend in your own lunchtime!
Agreed, always interesting posts - as an aside, they need to sort the world championship tickets out - theyve allowed touts to hoover them up, and every session is over £100 - need to introduce a purchaser present policy, cos the touts are cleaning up at the expense of proper fans (like m)
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. :)
Munch Man's legendary golf ball thread has inspired me to resurrect this old chestnut.
No topspin shots seen at the Masters as yet.
Munch Man's legendary golf ball thread has inspired me to resurrect this old chestnut.
No topspin shots seen at the Masters as yet.
excellent Mr P, i shall have a gander later. No doubt the banana shot has been discussed?
Yes indeed, Mr B. Many, many times in fact. :)
The first ten pages or so are quite an entertaining read, then we got a little sidetracked once or twice. My favourite part was where a fellow cut and pasted MY words on to an American science forum, waited for their members' responses, and then cut and pasted THEM back on here trying to disprove my arguments. What he didn't realise, alas, was that I was also a member on that forum as well. :)
Best wishes, sir.
The first ten pages or so are quite an entertaining read, then we got a little sidetracked once or twice. My favourite part was where a fellow cut and pasted MY words on to an American science forum, waited for their members' responses, and then cut and pasted THEM back on here trying to disprove my arguments. What he didn't realise, alas, was that I was also a member on that forum as well. :)
Best wishes, sir.
haha excellent when a plan comes to fruition
and the same to you Mr P
and the same to you Mr P
Another example just now of a great snooker player exposing a surprising lack of knowledge about physical aspects of the game.
When aiming to pocket an object ball which is tight on the rail it is very poor advice to advocate striking colour and cushion at the same time. It is eminently advantageous to hit the cushion first.
When aiming to pocket an object ball which is tight on the rail it is very poor advice to advocate striking colour and cushion at the same time. It is eminently advantageous to hit the cushion first.
at last, video evidence of how it's done:
https://tinyurl.com/y5o8njuo
https://tinyurl.com/y5o8njuo
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