Forums

Cheltenham Festival

Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
Cash Is King
08 Feb 21 11:20
Joined:
Date Joined: 21 Apr 09
| Topic/replies: 11,640 | Blogger: Cash Is King's blog
Not a single British trained runner at last weekend's Dublin Racing Festival.  That may have something to do with Brexit related red tape but given how few British trained runners participated in the 2019 and 2020 equivalents I think it has more to do with the "set in their ways" mindsets of the majority of British NH trainers.

These trainers are only too happy to bleat about poor prize money in the UK but, with very few exceptions, are unwilling to seek out greater prize money beyond Britain's shores.

It's not hard to believe that at least 6 of the 8 Grade 1 winners (plus Saturday's bumper winner) we saw win with relative ease at Leopardstown will follow up at Cheltenham in a little more than 6 weeks' time. Add to that the graded Irish trained runners that didn't run at the weekend and one struggles to make a case for British trained horses winning any of the top races other than the World Hurdle and the Foxhunters.

As for the handicaps Irish trained runners have won 5 (of the 10) in each of the last two Festivals. The British handicapper seems to face an impossible task in awarding "fair" marks to the Irish horses given the disproprtionate number of wins they secure when compared with the much lower proportion of Irish trained runners.

There are 28 Festival races and it looks like the British trainers could struggle to get to double figures when it comes to wins and Willie Mullins could have more winners that the British trainers combined.
Pause Switch to Standard View Record Number of Irish trained...
Show More
Loading...
Report Cash Is King February 8, 2021 12:28 PM GMT
Posted by me on Saturday on the main Horse Racing Forum:

The question that should be asked is why aren’t more British trainers looking at what Mullins in particular but also Henry DB and Elliott are doing and just copying as best they can. Plenty of expensive purchases being trained in Britain by the likes of Nicholls, Henderson, King, Pipe, Hobbs, Fry, Skelton, Williams et al but only Henderson heads to Cheltenham in March expecting a minimum of one Festival winner.

Too many “top” British trainers are set in their ways and unwilling or unable to adapt their acquisition strategies and training methods to keep pace with the leading Irish trainers.
Report harry callaghan February 8, 2021 12:50 PM GMT
Cash is king I thought the English trained runners weren’t allowed to enter at entry stage because of the pandemic?

This was the only thing I found

Talented British-trained runners have added some intrigue to the festival in the past but owing to the difficulties of travelling during the pandemic, Leopardstown chief executive Tim Husbands recently admitted it is "highly unlikely" this year's event will have competitors from across the Irish Sea.
Report irishone February 8, 2021 1:50 PM GMT
Gordon has been very quiet
Willie banging them in six weeks before the festival.

Interesting that last year only honeysuckle followed up dublin with a cheltenham win.

Willie is his usual uncertain self.

Rich very shrewd with pigalle.

Wtf is going on ?
Report Cash Is King February 8, 2021 3:01 PM GMT
Harry - You might be right but it doesn't explain why there have been so few British trained horses running at the Dublin Racing Festival in previous years.

Also, if Irish horses can run in Britain (as they have since the turn of the year) then I'm not sure what's stopping British trained horses from running in Ireland
Report Cash Is King February 8, 2021 3:04 PM GMT
Irishone - You are quite correct but the Grade 1 winners (Gaillard du Mesnil, Chacun Pour Soi, Energumene, Honeysuckle, Appreciate It and Monkfish) plus the bumper winner (Kilcruit) won as they liked. They'll have tougher workouts at home on the gallops.

I could see each of those following up at Cheltenham.
Report jimnast February 8, 2021 3:16 PM GMT
how did the irish trained runner get to musselborough yesterday ?
Report Cash Is King February 8, 2021 4:10 PM GMT
Grangee ran at Market Rasen on 16th January, Magic of Light ran at Ascot on 23rd January and as Jimnast has highlighted,  Never Do Nothing ran at Musselburgh on Saturday.

If Thomas Gibney can figure out how to ship a horse across the Irish Sea post Brexit then so can Henderson, Nicholls et al.  The trouble is they're creatures of habit - bad habits if they're compared with the likes of Mullins - and they stick to what they think they know.
Report jimnast February 8, 2021 4:14 PM GMT
correct cash is king

maybe the prize money over there is not good enough.
Report Andymca February 8, 2021 6:39 PM GMT
Maybe the British triners do not believe their horses are good enough and dont want to go up aginst the Irish horses, unless they have to.
Report irishone February 8, 2021 8:19 PM GMT
Iknow hanlon has stayed over there with mercury jim
Report irishone February 9, 2021 9:11 AM GMT
The british have an attitude
Towards Ireland and Irish people
Reflected on here regularly
Dont bring it up though
Cos' its a chip on your shoulder ....lol
Report Cash Is King February 9, 2021 1:08 PM GMT
Irishone - your wider point may well be true but I think the sad reality is that the likes of Willie Mullins (in particular) and Gordon Elliott are evidently willing to try something new to gain an edge. The majority of British trainers just stick to what they know.

Mullins has been prepared to travel far and wide in search of big pots. He's sent runners to the USA, Japan and Australia in recent years. He'll also routinely send horses to France because the prize money on offer at Auteuil puts British racing to shame.  In fact it was only a few years ago that he nearly ended up as top trainer in Britain only to be thwarted at the close of the season.

Elliott made a name for himself in the early days by sending his horses over to mop up low grade races in Scotland and the north of England because he knew he only had trees to beat. His success was rewarded when the Gigginstown team cam a calling and gave him serious horses to train.
Report Cash Is King February 10, 2021 2:15 PM GMT
Tiger Tiger posted the following on another thread:

"There are just six British-trained runners quoted at under 7-1 for all 28 races at the meeting. They are Shishkin, Epatante, Royale Pagaille, Bravemansgame, Paisley Park and Thyme Hill. And one of those, Royale Pagaille, 11-2 for the National Hunt Chase, seems more likely to take his chance in the Gold Cup."
Report Hibore February 10, 2021 2:49 PM GMT
From another thread. Only favs but interesting.

6 Irish favs on Day 1 2020 and 0 winning. 2 odds on.
5 Irish favs on Day 2 2020 and 1 winning @4/7. One beaten at 8/11.
5 Irish fav on Day 3 2020 and 0 winning
4 Irish fav on Day 4 2020 and 3 winning.



With all the trials run on very soft ground and the possibility that the festival MAY see some sunshine before mid March the results on spring ground can be unpredictable.
Who would have thought on Envoi would have been only winning fav out of the first 16 Irish favs last year.
Report Cash Is King February 10, 2021 4:22 PM GMT
Richard Forristal in the RP:

British trainers bemoaning Mullins 'freebies' should put horses on the boat

As a showcase for some of the best Irish horses, Dublin Racing Festival IV delivered in spades. From established stars like Chacun Pour Soi, Honeysuckle and Kemboy to the emerging forces of Monkfish, Kilcruit and Quilixios, the €1.85 million gala bore witness to a raft of spectacular performances.

Nonetheless, as Alan Sweetman pointed out on Tuesday, the ease with which so many of the Grade 1s were won – and the one-sided nature of the betting markets that foretold as much – is also a cause for interrogation.

Willie Mullins farmed nine winners at the meeting, which is just one shy of Gordon Elliott’s total tally at the DRF since its inception in 2018. The entirety of the remaining training population, with six winners, was outscored by 33 per cent.

Mullins’ prize-money haul of €875,000 in 48 hours amounted to more than what any other trainer – bar Elliott and Henry de Bromhead – has amassed in eight months of the season.

On the back of his plundering 13 victories at the track’s Christmas meeting, it is another emphatic illustration of how the champion trainer has re-energised his incredible hegemony.

Elliott was not his usual prolific self at the Christmas fixture. Over the four days, his yield was 4-43 for a nine per cent strike-rate and that dropped to just 1-28 for a 3.5 per cent return at the DRF.

With 136 winners – 11 more than Mullins – and over €2.6 million in prize-money, he is hardly having a bad season, but things haven’t clicked for him on some of the big days. Moreover, by bypassing the festival with Envoi Allen, Sir Gerhard and Zanahiyr, he was deprived of some heavy artillery.

John Oxx has been among those to warn of the detrimental long-term effect on racing’s appeal and political support if the same people are winning all the big races. No one is trying to rain on Mullins’ parade, but farming six Grade 1s with hardly a punch landed in opposition is not a healthy state of affairs for the sport as a whole.

Elliott's slightly subdued form fed into the lack of meaningful competition, and it is also worth noting one of the reasons the DRF was not factored into Envoi Allen’s schedule in the first place was because of his concerns over the potential for unsuitably fast ground. That is a serious issue that dogged the previous two festivals, with Elliott shedding his usual diplomatic reticence 12 months ago to declare that “it’s not good enough”.

This time, the weather just about ensured the conditions on the chase course weren’t a problem last weekend – just about. However, like Elliott with Envoi Allen, you could nominate others who may have factored the meeting out of their plans just in case. Ruby Walsh and Davy Russell have also argued this needs to be addressed, but nobody knows quite what the solution is. In the absence of a better idea, maybe it’s time to consider artificially irrigating the chase track in the summer when watering the Flat course.

There was also not one British runner at Leopardstown. This is an issue we have grumbled about in previous years, and there were extenuating circumstances this time with Brexit and Covid. Nonetheless, there have been Irish runners at Market Rasen, Ascot, Musselburgh and Wolverhampton over the past few weeks. The extra cost, logistics, bureaucracy and travel restrictions make the whole thing a bit of an ordeal, but it is hardly insurmountable.

Nicky Henderson has spoken of watching the DRF between his fingers from behind the couch, but he spends a lot of time lamenting the race schedule and the Irish Gold Cup, with no Al Boum Photo or A Plus Tard, would surely have been a neat fit for Champ.

We have been down this road before, but, from a fan’s perspective, it would certainly have been preferable to a simulated three-mile outing at some unidentified racecourse.

If Johnny Levins can send one to Musselburgh on Sunday for a Pertemps qualifier, the mind boggles as to why Champ – nine years of age and battle-hardened – could not come the other way for a €200,000 Grade 1. And if Newbury falls this weekend, Henderson might be sorry he was not a little more imaginative in his planning.

Likewise, on Nick Luck’s daily podcast on Wednesday, Dan Skelton expressed his frustration that Mullins’ horses accumulate invaluable experience in uncompetitive Grade 1s en route to Cheltenham, suggesting they don’t have to empty the tank while effectively being conditioned for the festival. He described them as “freebies”. Maybe there is some merit in his theory, but the same observation applies. Put your horse on the boat and come and keep them honest.

We always hear how the shocking prize-money levels in Britain is such a problem, yet Champ will run for a purse of £45,000 on Saturday instead of a €200,000 pot last Sunday. That’s a matter of choice, and we have illustrated before with case studies of Jodami, Spirit Leader and Un De Sceaux that a cross-channel venture close to Cheltenham is not a fearsome assignment that will ruin a horse’s festival hopes.

Jimmy FitzGerald, Fred Rimell, Martin Pipe, Neville Callaghan, Barry Hills, Jim Old, Peter Beaumont, John Upson, David Barons, Robert Alner and Paul Nicholls all embraced the challenge in the past and duly achieved marquee Leopardstown successes.

Henderson and Skelton are among the few trainers with the ammunition to mount some resistance, as Skelton described it, to Mullins, so the onus is on them to do so. Otherwise bemoaning the race programme or prize-money rings hollow, and Mullins’ domination will continue to perpetuate as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Report duffy February 10, 2021 4:39 PM GMT
Dan Skelton expressed his frustration that Mullins’ horses accumulate invaluable experience in uncompetitive Grade 1s en route to Cheltenham, suggesting they don’t have to empty the tank while effectively being conditioned for the festival. He described them as “freebies”.

The sourest of sour grapes......perhaps he should have stuck third time lucki and shan blue on the boat to put the frighteners up them
Report impossible123 February 10, 2021 4:53 PM GMT
Or set up in Ireland. Even Elliot with the patronage of Gigginstown and others was playing 2nd fiddle to Mr Mullins. Mr Skelton is 2 leagues below, at least.
Report jimnast February 10, 2021 5:02 PM GMT
when la bague au roi won the flogas she got a fantastic reception from the crowd the locals want to see uk runners,the racecourse wants to see uk runners the prize money is very very good,i know the ground on the sunday of year 2 was not ideal but other than that the ground has been fine for top class national hunt racing .
Report cryoftruth February 10, 2021 9:39 PM GMT
I think that the problem is that there far too many grade one chases which makes for far too many uncompetitive chases.
Imagine if Arkle had the opportunities they have now, he would never had been out of a canter. Mind you that was true anyway when he was conceding 35 lbs but that’s not the point.
Champ has been starved of opportunities said Henderson. Well he had the big chase at Doncaster, but the poor lamb would have had to concede some weight! What Henderson wants is a nice penalty kick.
Jump racing has the potential to be just a gigantic sport, but people will get sick of watching 4/1 on shots cantering round and commentators swooning when a horse that should be giving 2 stone away wins impressively at level weights. The hapless idiots in charge of the sport will do nothing to address this problem(1.01).
Report jimnast February 10, 2021 9:57 PM GMT
yes he likes those penalty kicks ,kempton sometimes frame the cards to suit him.
Report irishone February 11, 2021 3:49 AM GMT
"Uncompetitive grade ones"

Any of those that ran in THE gold cup last week would put it up to anything skeltons got.
Report irishone February 11, 2021 4:05 AM GMT
Three years ago Gordon had a nightmare at Dublin. He had the same nightmare last weekend. He had his best Cheltenham in 2018 in terms of winners. Dont be surprised !
Report irishone February 11, 2021 4:25 AM GMT
As for that press report
Sweetman is at the behest of coolmore
Never a bad word printed about them
In the Irish part of the racing post
Enough said ?
Report shlotter February 12, 2021 6:17 AM GMT
The truth is Irishone, now the Irish do not have to sell their best horses nowadays, that you have the likes of McManus, Giggingstown, Ricci, Donnelly et al furnishing the cream of Irish jump racing with some sublime talent. Why not! I remember how hard it was for us to get one winner at the festival. Why don’t we just sit back and appreciate this glorious chapter. Embrace it. I certainly do! As for their attitude towards us, well nothing new there. Oh and heaven forbid any of us Irish dare speak out! Yeah, it’s fine to them take the downright p.ss, but not us...so you know what, every Irish winner in England we should thoroughly enjoy. Because we have taken the power back and they just so hate it. They are seething...just seething Irishone....Laugh
Report shlotter February 12, 2021 6:40 AM GMT
Prestbury Cup Latest odds...

Eire 1/4
Great Britain and Engurlandshire 7/2
Tie 13/2

“But I do do do....RETURN OF THE MACK....”
Devil
Report irishone February 12, 2021 2:21 PM GMT
You are not old enough shlotter
Tom Dreaper was the man !
Report shlotter February 12, 2021 7:55 PM GMT
Yes of course Irishone, but even my great Uncle tried to do something during the seventies to start off the challenge again against them. My first abiding memory of the festival is screaming at Monksfield to hang on against Sea Pigeon and the late great Tommy Carberry and Tied Cottage. Still, we have come a long way since those leaner times that were quite soul destroying. I mean it’s like the British bookies are like going to be submissive to the dom this year and just get whipped...what price we don’t even get ga Prestbury Park Trophy presentation this year....oh I am afraid we have not time to make the presentation as little Tarkers has burned his bran muffin at nursery cooking class and Jemima just simply cannot bear to watch the Irish celebrate....Cool
Report irishone February 12, 2021 8:27 PM GMT
ExcitedLaughLaughLaugh
Report irishone February 16, 2021 7:44 AM GMT
There is likely to be a problem for willie and gordon with regards this years prestbury cup. Horses generally like to know the people around them. Both trainers will be cutting back on who they allow to travel this year.  The problem is the 14 day isolation they have to undergo in Ireland after the event. As most of the staff do at least three a day, there is going to be a lack of available staff if they all go over.  So some of their Cheltenham horses will be without the people who are around them everyday. For thoroughbreds this is even more unsettling.
Report sageform February 16, 2021 9:08 AM GMT
No English winners at the Dublin festival and no Irish runners worth mentioning in England since Xmas. Nothing significant in that. I still agree that Ireland have a huge advantage if they are allowed to come over in March which is still not certain. My only bets on Irish horses are lays of Monkfish and Envoi Allen. Not much potential loss and a lot can go wrong in novice chases.
Report Bentring February 16, 2021 12:17 PM GMT
More vaccinations less deaths Irish horses already travelling but it's not certain if they can travel WAFLOB and a lot can go wrong in novice chases they're gonna wipe the floor with us ffs I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime and as some others have written top Irish trainers have moved forward with owners prepared to pay but want them housed in Elliott or Mullins stables
Report jimnast February 16, 2021 4:42 PM GMT
how come you did not lay shishkin sageform thats a short priced novice chaser ?
Report sageform February 16, 2021 8:13 PM GMT
I might do but as I already have a bet on Allmankind, that would increase the my risk. My choice of the other two was heavily influenced by the possibility that the horses might not run and I laid them some time back. The more fences, the more chance of a fall. bad error or interference although the Arkle has had its share of favourites falling.
Report impossible123 February 16, 2021 8:22 PM GMT
I'd definitely 'lay' Shishkin (antepost 4/1) and (14/1) win double with Envoi Allen nearer Festival. I did contemplate when Shishkin was 4/5 for The Arkle.
Report Cash Is King February 20, 2021 10:57 PM GMT
Take a bow Willie Mullins. Where you lead other jumps  trainers refuse to follow.

Not content with sending horses to the USA, France, Japan and Australia to plunder top prizes you’ve now landed a £0.5m pot in Saudi Arabia.

Time for top British jumps trainers to sit up and take note.

I don’t doubt that Mullins’ willingness to push boundaries and pursue excellence will be richly rewarded at Cheltenham in a little more than 3 weeks time
Report Bentring February 21, 2021 12:45 AM GMT
Very true
Report shlotter February 21, 2021 2:00 AM GMT
Halcyon days...so looking forward to Ed Chamberlain and the rest of the ITV team saying we have not got time I am afraid to show the presentation of the Prestbury Cup to the Irish as little Jemima is crying that her two pound win bet on Great Britain and Engurlandshire  got facked. We now go to Chipping Norton to see little Tarkers and his best friend Hugh make organic bran muffins.
Report irishone February 21, 2021 8:28 AM GMT
LaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report Cash Is King March 1, 2021 8:57 AM GMT
I guess the answer to my original question is “no” if the authorities ban Elliott from running his horses in light of the “big game hunter” photo of him sitting on a dead horse.
Report penzance March 1, 2021 9:47 AM GMT
would be very harsh to me,anyway,punishing
owners for his mistake by banning their horses.
Report sageform March 1, 2021 10:16 AM GMT
Perhaps nobody noticed in the dazzling glow of Mullins's achievement was the £7 million that John Gosden won for his owner in one race recently. More than Mullins wins all year. Shame the owner happened to be from Saud Arabia but that is the reality of racing these days. As far as Elliott is concerned, a fine might be appropriate but penalising his owners would be ridiculous. Sitting on a live horse is OK but not on a dead one??
Report irishone March 1, 2021 10:28 AM GMT
Agree with that sage well said
Report irishone March 1, 2021 10:33 AM GMT
Cant compare gosden to mullins ...try obrien
Report Cash Is King March 1, 2021 10:40 AM GMT
I agree it would be harsh to penalise Elliott's owners for the trainer's massive error of judgement and I sincerely hope that whatever punishment is handed down, the horses currently in his care are allowed to run.
Report sageform March 1, 2021 1:17 PM GMT
Yet another case of social media and cameras causing a well known person serious problems. I never understand why people post pictures of themselves.
Report sageform March 1, 2021 1:18 PM GMT
I know that NH and flat are different but the race that Mullins won for £500k was a flat race!
Report Cash Is King March 16, 2021 8:20 PM GMT
Wow. First 7 races run and Ireland already has 5 winners on the board.
Report irishone March 16, 2021 8:52 PM GMT
Embarrassing really
Lot of irish trainers might be thinking about not goung over in future

The leopardstown\dublin\punchestown festivals are far more competitive now
Report Cash Is King March 18, 2021 11:50 AM GMT
The score at "half-time" is Ireland 11, Great Britain 3. As one sided a contest as I feared it might be after watching the Irish superstars strut their stuff at Leopardstown over Christmas and at the Dublin Racing Festival.

Even the Ireland-based jockeys are teaching the "locals" how to ride the track properly.

(And before anyone repeats that the Irish have all the best horses we should perhaps ponder whether the same horses would have performed just as well at Cheltenham if they'd been trained by the top British-based trainers.)
Report Cash Is King March 18, 2021 5:11 PM GMT
Incredible performances this week. Irish trained horses running riot.
Report irishone March 19, 2021 8:11 AM GMT
If we are still in lockdown
This time next year
Will the british contingent
Be put in the best mate enclosure ?
Report Cash Is King March 20, 2021 11:37 AM GMT
With reference to my opening post, there were 8 Grade 1 races at the Dublin Racing Festival in early February.

Honeysuckle, Quilixios, Appreciate It and Monkfish all followed up at Cheltenham last week.

Of the other winners, Gaillard Du Mesnil and Chacun Pour Soi finished placed at Cheltenham - as did Grade 2 bumper winner Kilcruit - Energumene didn't turn up (injured) and Kemboy disappointed in the Gold Cup.
Report irishone August 20, 2021 7:02 AM BST
Yes a much better year for the dublin festival.
Post Your Reply
<CTRL+Enter> to submit
Please login to post a reply.

Wonder

Instance ID: 13539
www.betfair.com