Altior

Mr Henderson very bullish about Altior working.
Here's hoping!!!

i found it a bit rich for him to say "we were under pressure to run him over further" Who from? Sounds like a huge does of hindsight to me. He may well win the CC but I can't back a 10yo. Saturday will prove nothing as he has 2 stone in hand on the others.

It may prove something if he dont run well!!

I just want to see him run and perform well enough to give him a go at defending his crown.
If he runs in the CC, then we will certainly see some proof of his abilty these days.

hobbs saying he will see how altior performs at the weekend as to where defi goes( owthe) ..by that not set in stone that defi goes champion . still likeliest scenario imo .

or words to that effect ^^^

if you have got a decent price for defi for champion chase i would lay some off,chacun pour soi beat him last season and if altior looks anywhere near his best he will be fav,so would not be a surprise if defi was switched to ryanair which may look a easier race

Surely Altior will win nicely on Saturday, will it tell us anything though?

I personally will be watching the horse very closely.

After the season hes had,and doubts surrounding him, I hope to learn that hes still a major force at the level required to win another CC.

“No horse in England would keep up with him, what he was doing the other day. If you blinked you would have missed it, but that is him

I don't see the need for Hendo eulagising so hard about his last piece of work, just let the horse do the talking on the track, it only serves to crank up the pressure needlessly,there's nothing to gain and everything to lose from such comments.

He's such an emotional character that I think he was stung badly by his defeat to Cyrname amid all the chatter questioning Altior, he's really took that to heart and is almost trying to hard to stop all the questioning himself. The horse can do that on Saturday then all will be well.

Agree entirely Duffy. I think he feels this stuff very deeply. When he refers to the horses as person I don’t think it’s for show I do think it is heartfelt and as a result he loses objectivity at times. I hope not too many people have taken him entirely at face value.

Will Altior be very short odds post The Game Spirit on saturday? Let's hope he's sound and delivers like a champion should. Otherwise c'est la vie.

i think they showed a video of the gallop on racingpost site

All systems go for Newbury tomorrow.
I shall be there to see him,looking forward to seeing him again.
Hope hes on top form.

Enjoy Bud, is there any issue with the storms ?

Oh yes, an impending storm could thwart the appearance of Altior. If so, another misfortune not the making of Altior but planning of connections, and nature. But. I hope not.

Thanks Hibore
Nice sunny afternoon forecast with a bit of cloud and a nice 10 degrees.
Nasty weather due Saturday night through Sunday.
Looks a good card.
Really looking forward to seeing Altior,seen him at home but surprisingly not yet on a racecourse,same with Might Bite too. Hope MB performs as he has done in the past, but if he don't at least I will get some photos to add to my collection, hes a fine looking horse.

No excuses today unless it is on the fast side of good by 2.25.

Well that's got rid of my fears about him going to the festival.
Looked good strutting around in the paddock,and well pleased with that run.He did what he normally does and won by a similar margin as in most pf his races.
Should be spot on come march.

Hindsight a great thing,but they will no doubt be wishing they had stuck to his normal campaign.
Think he would be still unbeaten.
Still the best 2 miler around for me,i hope he proves me right!!

He was beaten by a very good horse on the day at Ascot. They were clearly thinking King George and even Gold Cup but once those were taken off the table, they were back to the CC. Shame really as we will never know how he would run in a top class 3 mile chase. I still think that Altior and Cyrname are head and shoulders above the other chasers over any distance but gave each other a very hard race at Ascot.

Be interesting if Cyrname had a go in the CC, stiff 2m.....Rolling along in front. That flat spot might cost it more than Altior can make up on the hill.

Hang on a minute so every 2 1/2 miler in the country should or has already had a go at 2 miles this year. If only they had invented 2 1/2 mile races, getting them all together might have been a treat.

Sage
The Ascot race does look to have left a mark alright.
Cyrname in the KG and Altior taking time to recover backs that up,and we wont know until March if Altior is the same horse.
Yesterday I was encouraged by,but March will be tougher for sure.
Be interesting to see how Cyrname gets on at Ascot next week.

Ok controversial comment time. For me both trainers should be ashamed of themselves. They let egos and emotion get in the way of what was right for the horse. To take each other on like that without a prep run in those conditions was irresponsible. Had the same two trainers not been trading blows in the trainers championship for years I don’t think this would have happened. It’s like who had the biggest d**k competition. The media, racing public (myself included) and racing professionals all got sucked in and everybody should now say a collective sorry to the two horses.

Seriously miltons how much time have you spent in either trainers company. I dont think you know them at all. Seriously think they would compromise their horses welfare, their own egos being more important . Desperate attention seeking post, akin to a sun  newspaper front page headline, biggest load of tosh ever put up on here.

O k you got me ......

Cyrname could be an Ascot specialist, and best going right handed; the King George looked 4f too far for him - he was going ok 2/3 fences out. As for Altior he was clearly unfit at Ascot, and post race (visual distress) clearly showed that; he also missed Aintree after Cheltenham thus indicated he'd require more resting time between races.

I liked Altior post yesterday. He's the one for me in The Champion Chase, and will be fav come the day given his following, all being well.

Irish... you surprise  me ...I didn’t think you’d be the one to bite

So question for you irish now that I have your attention..... do you think GE and WPM would have done it?

It’s funny how bubbling just a tiny bit below the surface is the contempt racing professionals or those  close to racing professionals on this forum have for us passionate hobbyists.

It seems at best you just tolerate us and if ever we say anything that dare question anything about the whiter than white approach all racing professionals demonstrate every second of every day we very quickly get put back in our place.

to be fair if altior was clearly unfit it kind of fits in to what you said

From Hendos comments recently its clear to me he regrets running him at Ascot,and once entered he probably regrets not pulling him out on the day given the going.
Does seem he got himself in a very unfortunate situation with his horse and the racing press and public,and imo because of that ran the horse when he should not have.
Its great he came back and won,but the jury is still out as to what the decision at Ascot has on his chances in the QM.

Yep and I bet you he has said sorry to the horse a thousand times.

Last season Altior started off in the Tingle Creek on soft and beat Un De Sceaux.
This season, for the first time in his life, he comes up against a horse actually rated higher than him and is beaten fair and square but runs well.
But now its different. It was shameful, egotistical, irresponsible!!
You really couldn't make this sh1t up.
As for Mullins and/or Elliott not doing something similar. Well winter CH fav Klassical Dream took on Sharjah and Saldier in a Grade 1 fto while winter GC fav Kemboy took on Delta Work, Monalee, Percy, Road To Respect etc also in a Grade 1 fto

it's what the public want,is'nt it,
the best horses taking eachother on?

Yes Penzance of course it is. You want the best horses taking each other on, not trying to clock up a sequence of soft touches.

Feb 9, 2020 -- 12:03PM, miltons sophie wrote:

It’s funny how bubbling just a tiny bit below the surface is the contempt racing professionals or those  close to racing professionals on this forum have for us passionate hobbyists.It seems at best you just tolerate us and if ever we say anything that dare question anything about the whiter than white approach all racing professionals demonstrate every second of every day we very quickly get put back in our place.

This a forum on a betting echange, most people that win have better information than those that dont. Most of the best stuff comes from the inside. Vast majority end up buying lottery tickets. WHY wouldnt there be   a lack of respect for anybody second guessing, their idiocy, and mere sensationalising when they obviously have feck all else in their lives ?

Personally I would rather see horses run in races that does not harm them going forward.
It's taken a long time for Altior to recover from that race,and his trainer clearly feels he made a wrong decision by his horse,by his comment.
The public may well want these type of races,but it's a trainers job to put his horses best interests before the publics.

Altior taking on UDS over 2 miles.a horse rated inferior to him,is a lot different to taking on a horse rated higher than him over a distance half a mile further than he has run before.
I believe Hendo when he says he made a mistake.

So you think the two top trainers in the uk would put the public interest before the best interests of their horses. Is this endemic ? Fostered by a gutter press that holds far too much power over there.

Stop the press - " Shocking revelation as trainer regrets running fancied horse who has been beaten".
Has it ever been any other way? You are worse for reading way too much into these trainer quotes.
There were probably 50 runners yesterday alone who, if you talk to the trainers today, will regret running.
Henderson and Nicholls were both bullish pre-race. Only one of them was ever going to be right.

That’s not what I think. I think the two trainers got carried away with who had the best horse and in many circumstances that is great for the sport but not fto in that ground particulalrly when one of the two horses was going into unknown territory trip wise.  I think if the horse had truly come first they would have had the match when both horses were a little fitter.

Oh so you are saying it’s institutionalised running horses and regretting it the next day I wouldn’t volunteer for a racing PR job

So if you did a patent yesterday and they all lost, would you regret having done it now?

No ......whats institutionalised is your need sophie to come on here and make stuff up, in order to create sensationalism when you dont know the full story.

they were thinking of going King George
with Altior,2m 5f @ Ascot a good prep,
stays the trip goes Kempton,don't,they
can always drop back in trip.Cyrname goes
well @ Ascot,gets the 2m 5f,why not run
him?

That was no prep,that was taking on the top rated chaser at his distance on the course he achieved the highest rating,first time out.

They bowed to pressure from the racing press and the racing public.
IMO they did not put the horse interests first,and I genuinely thiink Hendo has regrets over it and agrees.

Irish The only statistic that I care about when it comes to the festival is my P and L at the end. I have made a minimum of a four figure profit from 20 of the last 21 festivals with absolutely no inside knowledge. Question is that a statistic that merits any respect? Do you think that is easy to do? Because when all is said and done inside knowledge or not that’s what we are all trying to achieve right?

Yes this post is defensive and distastefully self congratulating but it was the most impactful way I could think of to answer you. It is also factual and your answer would be appreciated.

That's just more aftertiming nonsense.If you are going to use Hendo's quotes then he also stated that Altior stayed the trip perfectly well.
I don't recall anybody on here calling for either horse to pull out beforehand but as usual there are one or two who, now that the race has been run, know exactly what should have been done.

20 out of the last 21,totally believeable.
Like the 380 Mcfabulous.

My post was directed at buddilea but the first sentence can also be applied to Milton's post 16.06

Let  yourselves down badly there lads.

Firstimevisor.... of course I don’t regret having a bet the day after I lose. My god I bet because I enjoy it and the possibility of winning. I don’t wallow in self pity if I lose just shrug my shoulders and move on to the next bet. And there is no impact to anybody or anything if I make a bad betting choice. The one thing I do try and do is learn from my many betting mistakes.

Firstimevisor you are right I didn’t call for him to be pulled out which if you look at my original post I put including myself

Sophie your figures are meaningless because its an anonymous forum and you can make them up. My point is that both you and Budd believe that the two best trainers in the UK put the interests of the public fueled by the press before the interests of the horses.....why would they do that when that is definitely not how they became the two best trainers in the u k ?

Well similarly, Hendo ran Altior due to the strong possibility of winning. He didn't win and perhaps Mr. Henderson  should just shrug his shoulders and move on to the next race. Nobody died and nobody gives a monkeys about post-race regrets

I said ages ago on this thread that they had to get it right re stepping him up.
It seems from His quotes that they feel they did not get it right.
The fact about whether he stayed is not relevant, it's the fact that his trainer regrets running him,and seeing him failing to sparkle for some time after that race.
Some are crabbing yesterday's performance, not me, but some in the game are.
If they are right it's possible he's still not totally over Ascot,and may not perform at the festival the way he has in the past.
I hope and think he can,but I could be wrong.

T

Irish
I don't think I have mentioned Nichols re the Ascot race,although I did say Cyrname in the KG may have been a result of that Ascot race.its also,possible he simply did not stat 3 miles.
I have seen no quotes from Nichols,only Hendo.

My post is not meaningless to me I asked you a question and you avoided answering it. You along with others are of course free to believe I am lying. Ok let me ask a different question. If a punter with no inside knowledge made a profit in 20 out of 21 festivals would that deserve respect in your eyes.

What’s more you ignored my 1544 post. That is what I think.

Ok fine.

Yes Visor,maybe he shpuld just shrug his shoulders,but we all know how Hendo can get very emotional about his horses,especially the high profile ones.

Like I said I don't give a toss about trainer quotes.
It doesn't take a genius to see that Altior outstays everything over 2 miles. In fact it takes him about 14 furlongs to warm up and it takes another 3 furlongs to pull him up after 2 miles so its absolutely laughable to think he doesn't get 2 and a half miles.
As for only racing him against proven inferior horses for fear he could have a hard race, God forbid. Well that's just nuts. What if every trainer took that view with every horse. Mind blowing!

I don't recall ever saying he don't stay two and a half.
I'm just saying that I believe Hendo when he says they made a mistake in running at Ascot.
Yes,we all know trainers quotes need to have a health warning at times,but in this case with what has happened with the horse post Ascot,I believe he is genuine with his comments.
I think he wishes he had run in the Tingle and Clarence.

Visor,there's plenty of trainers that don't want to take on certain challenges until Cheltenham,that's become a bit of a norm over the last few years.
And ve read on here how people like to wait until March to see the big clashes.
I als know that I have said it's a shame we don't see so many clashes during the season as we had when I first got lnterested in the game......Birds nest and night nurse eg.

I'm sure he does regret it but that's neither here nor there now. He thought Altior would beat Cyrname. He didn't and had a hard race trying. That's life. Nothing shameful or egotistical about it. It happens all the time to every horse every racing day and nobody cares... except when its Altior going for 20 in a row. Then the rules are supposed to be different

Heard it all now .....hendo and nicholls pander to the public and the press, that of course before they worry about their horses ......ffs lads ?

Even the good trainers make the occasional big mistakes eg Gosden (Roaring Lion); AOB (Saxon Warrior; Hendo (Altior/Ascot) - the majority was usually owner/commercial/media pressure. And, no doubt many more some of you aficionados will know.

The only mistake Hendo made regards Altior/Ascot was Altior was not fit, and he took on the horse that ran best at Ascot and at his optimum trip as opposed to Altior ie a professional error.

But, that's water under the bridge now. Let's move on; crying over spilt milk is not productive, and in this juncture not necessary either.

Irish
What do you think Hendo meant when he said they were under pressure to run?

Maybe you interpreted it different to me?

Once again I have not heard any quote from Nichols,so cannot say re his thoughts on Cyrname running and whether in hindsight he was happy with it.

Let's move on; crying over spilt milk is not productive, and in this juncture not necessary either.
Altior not fit? Explain.
Altior not suited to 2m 4? Explain

How'd Nichols not be happy with running Cyrname at Ascot against Altior? He won a big pot of money; broke Altior's winning run. I believe the King George was to gauge whether Cyrname stayed the King George trip, and probably Gold Cup too.

I do not think the exertion at Ascot took its toll on Cyrname in The King George - the extra 4f very, very more likely.

If any horse was going to need that Ascot you'd have thought it was going to be Cyrname!!!, remember in the minutes leading up to the race there was an avalanche of money for Altior who was backed as if defeat was out of the question going off 1/3!!!! If he needed the race ....nobody thought it.

Irish the two are not mutually exclusive. Of course hendo and pn care passionately about their horses I am not suggesting they don’t but that they lost a little objectivity just on this one occasion. This happens with human beings all the time. History is littered with examples of humans that make one off out of character choices. The fact is they chose to run off against each other very early in the season on testing ground. PN had been banging on to every man and his dog that all his horses needed a run. If Cyrname was the exception then he must have had a reason and perhaps that reason was to beat altior.
Without that I beliieve he would have let Cyrname ease into the season taking the long game view. I think hendo would have done the same. I do not see much evidence from either trainer that their normal MO is to start the season with such a tough pipe opener so early in the season

But I get most on here disagree and many do not believe there was any ingredient of putting the occasion before the horse. As I see it only two people truly know.

i think the owners might have had a say in were they ran

They would have both been fit as fiddles in that race IMO, both trainers had one big point to prove, Nicholls wanted to prove that his young gun was worth the rating and Hendo would had been desperate to ram the fact that the handicapper had the temerity to rate something above his horse right down his, and anyone who dared to believe its throats.

Do we think that either trainer would allow to let their horses go off half fit under those circumstances, not a chance IMO, and as I said, Altior was smashed in to 1/3, if their was one horse that you'd think was under-cooked on the day, it wasn't him.

I do not see much evidence from either trainer that their normal MO is to start the season with such a tough pipe opener so early in the season

I could give you a very long list. Grade 1 horses tend to run in Grade 1 races, all year round(though Cyrname v Altior was grade 2).
Clan Des Obeaux started in a Grade 1 in Down Royal with Road To Respect and Delta Work etc.
Buveur D'air started off in Grade 1 in Newcastle(I'm sure he regrets that too!).
That's just 2 random examples. Nothing at all unusual about the good horses meeting each other first time out

Fook me this has turned to a bun fight, enough now please.

BD against Cornerstone lad,silver streak and lady buttons....probably thought that would be a nice start to the season I would think.

Sorry Deptford

Who else is there, outside his own stable?

Duffy your post suggest both trainers lacked objectivity....... both trainers had one big point to prove .... For me that says it all. That the occasion  or their personal agendas was bigger than the end to end season for both the horses. Exactly my point. If they wanted to prove which horse was the best why didn’t they have a prep and prove it in the KG or another mutually satisfactory race .... why do it so early in the season?

I can only think of one reason because the occasion took on a life of its own. It was like a runaway train and Imagine the public reaction  and reaction from some on this forum if one of them had pulled out.

And lets say Altior had swerved Cyrname and run instead in the Tingle Creek as he had done the previous year. Lets say he didn't win it. What would Henderson have said then? Probably something along the lines of " I really regret now running him in the Tingle Creek as we felt all along that he was crying out for a step up in trip. Its all my fault. I should have run him at Ascot"

First time..... are you seriously suggesting CDO in Ireland wasn’t just a prep run for the KG . It is not the grade of the race or the opposition that I am talking about it is the extent to which the early season race is a huge deal. Even though the horses are top quality and the race has grade one status winning is not the be all and end all it is a nice bonus with the main objective being to set the horse up perfectly for the remainder of the season. Are we seriously suggesting that was the primary objective of both sets of connections for the ascot race.

Had he ran in the Tingle,any comments along those lines would have no merit,it's what he had done with the horse before.

MS,
I agreeee that Hendo lost objectivity, it's actually clear that he did, as it is the polar opposite of his MO to face his horses off in a much tougher race than is necessary but he was overtaken by emotion at the sting he felt at his horse being superceeded in the ratings game, he would have felt slighted and taken it personally. It is to this end though that the horse would have been primed to the minute as the betting screamed at us.

Now you've really lost me. Clan Des Obeaux went across to Ireland for a high quality race for which he started fav and finished second. Do you think he went for a nice day out?

He didn't go for the day out but there was nothing "deeper" at stake if he got beat, this whole Altior v Cyrname thing took on a whole life of it's own with a lot more at stake. I'm surprised it never had it's own subtitle much like "The Duel On The Downs" did.

Budd, Henderson was shouting it from the rooftops since last March that Altior was crying out for a longer trip.
Duffy, up until this season there just was no other horse with a comparable rating to Altior. He was always running in the best races but with little worthwhile opposition.

Spot on Duffy. For cdo in Ireland winning was a bonus  and they would have grabbed your hand off for second place and horse back in good shape......a very satisfactory days work nothing more nothing less and the KG was always the main prize. Imo this is often how connections view the early season grade 1s. Some connections try and nick one with a horse just shy of absolute top class  e.g. road to respect.

Duffy, there was nothing "deeper" about it apart from the quality of the race. He wouldn't have been prepped any differently than any other year.

The KG was always the main prize? Really. Did Cyrname not go off favourite for that?

You  can see by reading the posts that there is very little evidence of a knowledge and understanding of horses on the forum.Fair enough its a betting forum. You are underestimating what it takes to get a horse fully fit to a race meeting at a certain time at some future date.  If there was any hint that the horse wasnt fully fit they wouldnt run it. Never mind the owners, the press, the public ,......responsibility to them doesnt rate on the scale.

Agree Irish, and I have a horse with Henderson (so keeping out of this).

The horses are as fit as the trainer can get them at home. Races can bring them on again but not in al, cases.

I don't think Hendo was shouting from the rooftops.
I think his jockey started this stepping up thing and Hendo thought let's give it a go.
But that's not the point for me,the point is they chose the wrong time and place and opposition to do that,and that's what he is saying he did wrong.
I do understand some horses need their first run,we should all understand that,and I do know some can be fit enough first time out.
I thought Hendo was saying the others day that Altior was not as fit as he thought? the state he was in after the race and the fllwing days.

Jan 15, 2020 -- 10:12PM, irishone wrote:

Last two years the horse has struggled to get there, what was it last year ? Came out on three legs. Then the year before it was a scare at the start of the week. No word before the races. now comes out with he has lost his mojo .....really ? Cant believe a word the fellah says, bit like the bha.

In that case please take note of the above

If I remember correctly Hendo thought Altior was sufficiently fit and did not think a racecourse gallop was necessary. But, 1st time out and over a new (further) distance was a step too far even for a superhorse like Altior.

When he wins The Champion Chase I reckon all will be forgiven given the stocking price he is (if!).

Tbh Irish I couldn’t care less about having very little knowledge about horses. Like you say this is a betting forum. What I care about is making a profit. If I am doing that through sheer luck then I wii take it and I will continue to take it until I stop making money. I use the money to help those close to me and that’s what I care about.I apologise for offending all the knowledgeable people on here.

Very patronising, sophie, fair play if you make a profit at it,  dont take offense but I assume you dont put a lot of your information upon which you make your selections on here because of the likelihood everyone will follow you in ?

ffs there was nothing patronising about my post. I fully accept and concede you and all the professional people on this forum are much more knowledgeable about horses than I am. I just don’t care. And I understand how it would irritate professional people when idiots like me talk rubbish.

But saying I haven’t shared information for fear of people following me in is probably an assumption you perhaps shouldn’t be making but I will let others be the judge of that.

Irish is accusing someone of being patronising.

My god that is the funniest thing on here.

Why thank you hibore !

Glad Altior was far away from Saturdays race!! Bet Nicholls wishes Cyrname was now !!