Are the JLT and Ryanair good for the festival?

Both races should be Grade 2 with 1/2 the amount of prizemoney. And don't get me started on the Mares race, Fred Winter, Albert Bartlett ...... Arghhhhh

The last thing we, as punters, should care about in relation to Cheltenham is prize money.

Relax and enjoy the build up to the best 4 days of the year!

Well i for one care. I know we will never go back to the 3 day Festival but with a few small adjustments we can at least bring the competitiveness back. The winner of the Ryanair gets more prize money then the 2nd does in the Gold Cup. That is so wrong. If it was the other way around you can bet owners of horses like Cue Card would not even think of running in the Ryanair, which is the way it should be. The incentives need to be there so connections run in the better races. I haven't given up hope changes can be made, yet. Rant over.

Nothing would stop me from enjoying Cheltenham.

I have no problem with the Ryanair. It is the number of handicaps that dilute the meeting as do the 2 mares races. A festival race winner should be rated 150 or above and the handicaps that cater for 140 or less horses are lowering the standard. The Kim Muir is a case in point.

Jan 13, 2017 -- 1:08PM, maelduin wrote:

Well i for one care. I know we will never go back to the 3 day Festival but with a few small adjustments we can at least bring the competitiveness back. The winner of the Ryanair gets more prize money then the 2nd does in the Gold Cup. That is so wrong. If it was the other way around you can bet owners of horses like Cue Card would not even think of running in the Ryanair, which is the way it should be. The incentives need to be there so connections run in the better races. I haven't given up hope changes can be made, yet. Rant over.Nothing would stop me from enjoying Cheltenham.

Do we have enough horses rated over 150 to run 4 days of 6/7 races with 10 in a race ? ~ ~ 240 individual horses

from the bha website there are 78 horses with a chase rating over 150; 17 over 160 and one of them is Sprintre Sacre.

And then the hurdlers, excluding ones with chase ratings there are 21 with ratings over 150; 6 over 160.


For the irish ones

there are 36 horses with a chase rating over 150; 12 over 160
And then the hurdlers, excluding ones with chase ratings there are 14 with ratings over 150; 5 over 160.




Maybe the Ruinair is required to cater for the lower horses that aren't good enough, but should be structured so that good horses can't enter it. Ala Vautour rated 171.

How many Ryanair winners have been rated lower than 150? My objection is to races confined to lower rated horses.

I think they have been an absolutely superb addition to the Festival.

It's a complete no brainier  in my eyes. The gap between 2m and 3m is simply too much... there have been plenty of horses over the years who don't have the speed for 2m, yet don't stay 3m.

I think they are good for the festival. I like those races, as i know the festival isn't there to make things easier for AP punters. If you take away these races, your sending a bunch of good horses in their without a suitable trip. Whether people like it or not, they're also good for trainers who want to split them up. Racing isn't just for punters like me. It's for everyone.

Personally think the Ryanair gets a little unfair press. I think it a nice stepping stone for young staying chasers before in the move from novice company to the genuine grade 1 open company. Off the top of my head Cue Card, Don Cossack, Captain Chris, First Lieutenant have all used it as their second season chasing target, before going on to bigger and better things.

Don't forget Imperial Commander

Because the Gold Cup has that extra 2 and a half furlongs I'm fine with the Ryanair as an intermediate. JLT, mares hurdle and Albert Bartlett should be grade 2s for me though, but if we're demoting races there are so many more that need demoting before those do.

The difference between 2 miles and 3 miles plus 2 and a 1/2 furlongs is massive and its good that there is an intermediate race. In addition many people are not over keen on the RSA and some believe it can ruin novices so I suppose the JLT serves a purpose

The problem for me is the adverse effect on field sizes contesting the championship races, primarily on the Arkle by the JLT, in recent years there is always a small field contesting the Arkle and I know that quantity doesn't always equate to quality but I think that it adds to the spectacle if there are more horses contesting the race, the problem is accentuated with there being a few hot pots in the Arkle lately that give other connections more reason to scurry off to another race.

Not for the above reason but I think that if the JLT and Ryanair weren't in existence Vautour for example would quite likely have been an Arkle and Queen Mum winner now and as brilliant as his JLT win was, it would have been nicer if he'd have did that in the better race.

Going back a little further I wonder if the likes of very good Arkle winners such as My Way De Solzen (already a stayers hurdle winner) and Tidal Bay would even have been in the race if the JLT existed back then.

Exactly.  Of course these new races dilute the fields for the championship 2m and 3m races and as such these races are easier to win now.  It would be silly to pretend otherwise

Only easier to win if you think that the Ryanair winner would have won the QM or GC.

No from me. I dont really believe in 2.5 mile specialists.

I reckon 99% of them could achieve a similar level over either 2 or 3 miles. There are a few exceptions but I think I (or someone with more knowledge than me) could name as many horses who could compete over 2 AND 3 miles than can only do 2.5.

No they aren't good for the Festival, they probably belonged at Aintree, along with the 2m4f hurdle.

I would put up Albertas Run as a definite 2m 5f specialist, would never have won a gold cup (well beat whenever he stepped up to 3m) and didnt have the pace to ever run in the QM. Was a a horse who benefited from the introduction of the Ryanair, Whether a few horses benefiting from a 2 1/2 race has genuinely weakened the other races, I would tend to agree. But i actually quite like the JLT and Ryanair

Albertas could have been one. Maybe oscar whiskey and riverside theatre. But then you have the kautos and sizing europes and long runs who at certain points could have competed (had entries, prominent in betting etc) in the 2 OR 3 miler. If you put any of those good horses in the Ryanair then my feeling is that Albertas wouldnt be a 2.5m specialist anymore and would go back to being a difficult horse to place.

If a handful of horses can do 2 AND 3 miles then imo thats the perfect distance apart.

Albertas Run was also totally 'ground dependent', so difficult to use him as an example.

Never went an inch on soft ground.

agree with your comment to an extent on Albertas, but they ran the horse in the GC in 2009 and came up well short in a time which suggested the ground was pretty decent (and a quicker time than the following year). After that the horse was run three further times over 3m or further, pulled up twice (albliet on ground it wouldn't have liked) and beaten 22L on good ground at aintree. Suggests it didn't really stay the trip, or at least that connections didn't believe it had the stamina for 3m + Grade 1s. It is one horse which certainly benefited from the specific distance, Riverside theatre is another excellent example that i had forgotten. There might be a few others. The Ryanair has produced some cracking performances since inception, Vautour last year for example running riot, Imperial commander etc, but I accept that they could have run in the GC those years.

I have to say re Albertas Run, that he did stay 3m having won a Reynoldstown and an RSA Chase.  He may have been better over 2 1/2m in the end but certainly was effective on his day over 3m.

I suppose it boils down to whether you want less races and those to be as competitive as possible.... or more races that are slightly watered down.

Personally, I feel that the main races the past few years have still been of sufficient quality to be glad we have the Ryanair and JLT. I love 4 days of Cheltenham now... as its my highlight of the year.

The classic example of a "mezzanine" horse was Native Upmanship which won only once over two miles and never over three or more, but on as many as ten occasions over the middle distance, including two Melling Chases at Aintree. The Ryanair arrived too late for him; he's now 24.

No doubt that the JLT will draw away horses from the Arkle where horses like Douvan and Altior will frighten away all but the bravest opposition while the JLT is less of a hectic speed test. Class horses that stay 3 miles over hurdles or 3.25 miles over fences are as rare as hens teeth which is why alternatives are a good idea imo.