Un De Sceaux - Question Marks?

I think he's a bit overrated over fences, although that could change after today.  Like you say, fell twice, and the only time I have ever been blown away by him was the Irish Arkle, that was a proper wow! performance.

I suppose you're being harsh by crabbing a 6 length Arkle win, but I was a little underwhelmed by his Arkle run too, but that was probably our expectations were too high going into the race after his last run.

Time will tell, but I don't think he'd get near Sprinter at his best, but all opinions like that are subjective and I'm sure people will have a counter argument.

I took the 5/2 on him and 5/2 on Faugheen on Laddies Black Friday event, but can't say I'm overly confident. Definitely wouldn't touch him at near evens for the QMCC anyway.

SDGs best ever run was in this race two years ago and he would need to run close to that level here to beat UDS,i can't see him recreating that performance again even with today's optimum conditions.Just a race to watch for me.

Just the fences for Un De Sceaux to jump in the Queen Mother then...

Traffic Fluide one to watch for the future though, but surely this years CC is too soon for him to topple the favourite.

Willie says will come on for the run. Better on better ground. They will need to put a huge fence in his way looking at today coz no horse will beat him!!!

Best performance of his career that.  He's a lot more likely to win the Champion Chase if they hold on to him abit more like today, rather than letting him tear off at his own pace, and put in huge leaps.  It was a bit less heart in mouth, which is what he's been needing.

Fair play to him today, looked the real deal.

Did Willie Mullins say he is better on better ground Robbo? I've always thought that he's better on today's type of ground and thought connections did too. I think his form also shows that to be the case and for me is the main reason he might be vulnerable at Cheltenham, as on better ground I think Sprinter Sacre can give him a race there. I say this despite being a massive fan of UDS since watching him dot up in those early hurdle races in Ireland. Expect I'll back him on the day if I've had a good Tuesday but the ground assuming it's good is a worry

the only question, same as it was last year, is how far he wins - for me sprinter sacre was over rated, there was nothing to beat during his two years at the top, and UDS is under rated, the occasional fall did not stop dessie, kauto or moscow flyer from being great horses and hopefully UDS will demonstrate his class few more times yet

I'm a little bit surprised UDS isn't shorter on here than evens. For me there's only two things that can beat him in the CC - himself by falling or Sprinter Sacre, and hand on heart I just can't see Sprinter being good enough anymore. Sprinter at his best would have eaten him alive though.

and UDS has beat ?

I won't be surprised if Sprinter comes there tanking and looking the likely winner going to two out but don't think he'll find much whereas UDS finds plenty.

Gazo, what's he got to beat? It's a weak division. Un De Sceaux does likes it soft but reckon he'll be absolutely fine on better ground.

Expecting Sprinter to be the main danger now. Now he's getting on he'll really appreciate better ground, it'll only bring out the best in his jumping. Even in his pomp Henderson was always raving about good ground for him and Cheltenham will suit him as well. He has a squeak if he gets those conditions but just can't see him turning Un De Sceaux over.

Agree with Tory, Sprinter Sacre at his brilliant best of 3 years ago would have chewed Un De Sceaux up, spat him out and laughed at him. Stone in hand absolutely minimum. That's not to undermine how good Un De Sceaux is but to pay tribute to how unbelievable Sprinter was. Unfortunately though his legacy has been tarnished since his return from injury where obviously showing he's not the same animal.

Walsh at his best today. UDS got warm in the preliminaries and he didn't want to do too much too soon. He wound it up from the front beautifully.

i agree but i was asking gordon63 why he thinks uds is underated and ss was overated

I didn't read that post. Sprinter Sacre overrated? I don't know where to start with that. I think I'll leave it.

Too many UDS lovers in here for my liking so i will come on here (i know u lot will probably chew me up and spit me out after reading this) but i just cannot have Un De Sceaux on my mind for the QMCC this year!!! Especially after that.

He just got too many fences wrong, there was no fiddling, no being good enough to put in a short one. IMO any other jockey on board he would have hit the deck on at least 2 occasions today! Do that around Cheltenham in this prestigious race he will get found out.

Ok he might still win, to be fair, he is the most likely winner of the race, but he needs it to run a bit like todays, he get's them wrong far too often for my liking and imo is lucky enough to stay on his feet, other horses you could use the fiddling word about but he just doesn't have that! There are far too many fences where he takes off and it's a leap of faith as to whether he gets to the otherside ok or not. Like i said, he might still win but he will have to do it in the same manner as he did today and against at least 2 horses that are brilliant jumpers, (Sprinter Sacre 25/1 and Dodging Bullets not yet backed)of which are far superior jumper of a fence that he is, he will need to!

To take odds on about a suspect jumper is beyond even me! Much rather have 25/1 3 places and 9/1 3 places 1/4 than take 5/4 before todays race or 4/5 after it for the win

STS ? Have you been on the Crabbies again mate? He's just stuffed Sire De Grugy who made Sprinter pull out all the stops last time. And he did it Soooo easily... going away at the finish! Still, your 25-1 looks a great bet for place purposes buddy. Well done - but don't back Dodgy Bullets - save your money!

Deadly serious delsie777, he wins if he stands up, but imo thats a huge if, i remember Moscow Flyer, and i was an Azertyuiop fan was like ferking kerching that year

I thought he jumped fine today - like he does most of the time. Think you're being a bit harsh on a horse that's only made 2 mistakes in its career

I think you're off you're head STS in relation to his performance today. If anything he was too careful, too 'fiddly' at his fences. There was one jump where he reached for it and it could have gone wrong, but otherwise it was a very safe & sound, if not at all spectacular, round of jumping.

You're bet on SS is very nice but like Delsie says, save your money on DB. He had the absolute perfect season last year - his prep went without a hitch, the best two 2 milers in open company where injured or coming back from injury, and he beat a load of average horses enroute to winning the Tingle, Clarence House and CC. Be beat Somersby by 1 1/4 lengths - I mean come on, that's rank!!

Apologies about the grammar - put you're a few times rather than 'your'!

Only 1 time tory

Cat and pigeons springs to mind

Your grammar is fine tory, nothing i noticed. TBH i left school with fook all so there yay go i dont sh!t on people worse off than me but i will sh!t on those better off than me that say they are

However, like i said, UDS probably wins, but he screams Moscow flyer to me and i've been backing against these types for donkeys years! Usually getting place money, sometimes with pie on face but also a lot of times with full pockets

Can't have UDS as a superstar but there is so little to beat in this division that you can't really find one to beat him. So many "ifs" about the rest. It's seldom been a strong division but I don't see UDS as a real top horse, just one who is far too good for second class opponents. His cautious jumping today would have got him in trouble in a top class 2 miler, but none of this lot was able to lay a glove on him.

Was working today and didn't see the race but do you not think  a big performance is possible in the Queen mum

Well UDS will probably take on the last 3 Ch Ch winners in March and if he beats them what will the doubters say. Also his time for the Arkle last year was 3 or 4 seconds faster than Dodging bullets time the next day. He has won 11 of his 13 races and has never seen another horse in those races. Show me a few more horses like that.

Well that time is surprising was up early for the papers and don't remember any signs of rain and was staying near the football ground

Thought it was decent performance off the back of a fall. Still open to improvement unlike the others it may be up against.

I'm 100 per cent with cyclops.
It's not UDS which is making his price, it's the lack of opposition.
Terrible division this year

Hes a proper professional now looks to me.
Not anywhere near as headstrong as he used to be.
Once he has a couple of runs to get the fizziness out of him he don't even look like falling.
He jumped well round Cheltenham last year and I would think no reason why he wont do the same this year.

He has just comfortably beaten SDG...could have been more,and Sprinter the 2nd fav had to work extremely hard to just beat SDG.

Yes horses can fall, especially 2m chasers where the margin for error is so small,and that looks the only way UDS loses in March.
Just cannot see another horse passing him...it aint happened yet as far as I recall.

Not sure I could find to many negatives about yesterdays run, got in close to a couple but at no stage looked like falling ,quickend up and put a length between himself and the field after every 'slow' jump, still had enough in the tank to go clear on the run in.

Not many horses jump like Dessie or Sprinter did in their prime but doesn't stop them winning. The facts are nothing has got close to him when he's stood up, he will do for me @ evens....

Will win if UDS stays up unless he makes a 'hollick' of the last fence like KV did in its last race - it is a binary bet!

I think UDS is by far the most likely winner, having said that I don't think he's a true superstar, it's not his fault, but he's on his way up as the rest of the division seems on it's way down. I believe  that he'd struggle to put up a performance over 170 int the CC and with 3 previous winners likely to line up it's become a bit of a sad race for me this year. Having said that if SS( the only possible threat IMO)  could some how put up a performance in the 170s I believe it would bring the house down. So no offence meant against UDS or his fans, but I'll be hoping for that.

Yeh,yesterday confirmed to me that UDS is head and shoulders above the opposition.
Cannot see SS running much better than he did against SDG,and he would have to to stand any chance.
Hard to say what sort of rating UDS could achieve,unless hes allowed to do more than hes likely to have to do to win the QM.
Might find out more next season if Douvan is up against UDS.
That's quiet mouthwatering if Douvan lives up to his connections belief.

What is it that makes a horse a superstar?
UDS would have won the QM as a novice if they had ran him.
SDGs QM win was against rubbish so was last years and  Finnians Rainbows victory was a poor race so the QM race has been a turkey for a few years a few years now imo.

Hard to understand this dissing of the horse. I'm not sure what else he could have done yesterday to silence the doubters. He's yet to lose whilst standing up and possibly could have won the CH the year Jezki won it had he been given his chance. If he wins the CC by 3-4 lengths there will still be plenty saying that it's not enough for them to confirm him as a superstar. That's the price he has to pay for coming in an era directly after SS who was an absolute monster at his best. Is UDS as good as a peak SS? Probably not but he is still a high class 2 mile jumper. Certainly high enough class to understand why Mullins has steered Vautour away from this division. Next year should be interesting with Douvan joining the top ranks to compete against UDS.

After watching Douvan there have to say although he was 1/14 he would beat UDS imo.

And i never said UDS wouldn't win, i think he will win, but i still think his jumping is very suspect. Like Moscow Flyer in so many ways, his form at the end is going to be 111F11F111F1F or something to those effects and if Douvan don't race him down the line. In fact on that subject, i can't see it happening to be honest. Think they try stepping Douvan up in trip myself

And also as said above, i will always be against the real shorties! Especially at the fez, this horse wont change my mind on that one. They don't all win!

Douvan ain't won the Arkle yet.

Be interesting to see the record shorties have,I would imagine odds on shots have a very good record.

ods in recent years have a woeful record, where have you been :)

Trying to think of them.

his form at the end is going to be 111F11F111F1F or something to those effects and if Douvan don't race him down the line. shouldn't one of those f's be in front of the 1

There was a point in the Weekender this week that since 2009 WPM has had a near 60% strike rate with horses at 3-1 or shorter at the Festival, so it would appear that Willie's short priced horses at least have a good record.

I find the top two milers exciting to watch because of their assured jumping at speed. I don't get that vibe with Un De Sceaux. I'm more impressed by his galloping. It seemed as though Ruby was cautious at every fence on Saturday. Understandably so as another fall would have been a disaster. If Sprinter Sacre has a chance it's in getting into the lead round the bend after the stands and pouring it on down the back straight if he's still capable. I don't see any way he can out-gallop UDS up the hill.

it was a real pleasure to be at Ascot to watch UDS on Saturday, thought he controlled the race very well throughout and always looked to have plenty in hand. On the collateral form with SS it will be very difficult for anyone to beat him at Cheltenham as he seems perfectly well equipped on good ground in the Arkle last year, Douvan 1/14 against UDS, just a comical statement, we don't even know how good UDS is, he has hardly been put under pressure.

Odds-on front runner with jumping frailties in a Grade 1 at the Festival.  Ring any bells?  Not really cricket but I'd imagine one or two trainers may be tempted to take a leaf out of Jenny Pitman's book.

Thanks for reminding us

I don't really think he has jumping frailties though - he is so good that they just have to let him pop away and be safe in the knowledge that he'll run away from them up the hill... He was almost foot perfect in the Arkle last year, and I expect the likely better ground will again see him jump more cleanly in March this time round.

I can see why people don't want to back him at odds-on but 10/11 looks very fair to me given his ability and last year's performance at Cheltenham. There are so many opportunities at Cheltenham, too - you don't have to bet in every race so I wouldn't be in any hurry to take him on...

Has UDS ever run against a proper Chaser who's served it up from flag fall?

What do we think would happen if he bumped into the 2014 Desert Orchid version of Special Tiara for instance?  That would make for compelling viewing.

Let's hope ST brings his a-game.  A gimme from the front for UDS would be exasperating.

"I can see why people don't want to back him at odds-on"
Too right. Maybe I'm looking back through rose tinted specs but my recollection is that when there were proper bookmakers at Cheltenham, odds on in championship races was reserved for the likes of Arkle on the day, and even then they usually had to have won the race already.

There's not a proper champion chaser around that can serve it up to UDS from the start.
Even if ST tries to get to the front it will not succeed.
I also wonder how hard they will be on Sprinter during the race......will they try and take UDS on earlyish? not sure they will.

I don't think UDS will get the credit until he comes up against a horse that's good enough to give him a race. That won't be this season on any form we have.
If Douvan lives up to his owners claim that he's the best he's had,then I hope he faces UDS next season.
That would be the time we can finally give UDS the credit he deserves,that's of course if he managed to beat the owners best ever horse!!

The only thing that can stop UDS is if SS can come back to what we saw first time out this season at Chelteham, that day he travelled with the same power as he did in his pomp, that was missing 2nd time around, if he can improve again on the first run back and carry himself through the race in the same manner, then he could do it...he'll track UDS and we'll be able to tell what SS we've got long before the business end of the race comes.

Absolutely Duffy. thats exactly what I think SS will do, and one would hope that he can travel well until the run in.
Personally I think he will be struggling before then as will the others, but for the sake of the race I hope I'm wrong.

Sprinter's best chance is to start eyeballing him from 4 out and put him on the floor imo.  Not many horses can go toe to toe with SS over a fence, least of all Un De Sceaux.

He wont get to him to do that, Walsh will make sure of that.
But it probably would be his best chance.

Ideally you want to look at Sprinter before the race. If he's on song it will be obvious in his appearance, as it was first time out with his gleaming coat, arched neck etc. There's no point in them holding back with Sprinter this time and I expect him to try and take on Un De Sceaux during the middle third of the race. To win I think he needs 4 lengths on Un De Sceaux at the top of the hill as the latter will prove better of the two in the final third, assuming he stays upright. I feel sure that Nico will be more confident in letting rip with his horse at a fence than Ruby.

sprinter sacre overrated - of course

Bt Lightening Rod 24l (6 ran)
Bt Peddlers Cross 16l (3 ran)
Bt French Opera 6l (6 ran)
Bt Cue Card 6l (7 ran) - OK decent run
Bt Toubab 13l (4 ran)
Bt Kumbeshwar 15l (7 ran)
Bt Mad Moose 14l (7 ran)
Bt Sizing Europe 19l (7 ran) - a master minded type run, never repeated
Bt Cue Card 4.5l (6 ran) - was this an improvement on earlier defeat of cue card? probably not but was over 20f which would have suited cc more
Bt Sizing Europe 5.5l (5 ran) - margin much less than in QM and probably an indicator of things to come

if anyone believes above is representative of a 'superstar' then give yourself a shake and look back at the likes of badsworth boy, moscow flyer and even pearlyman and viking flagship who won 2 x QM

sprinter sacre undoubtedly good but rating a product of the current generation and their need for superstars and hype

lots on here complain about WPM not racing his best vs best and who knows what UDS could have achieved as a hurdler, but after march he's have an arkle and a QM in the bag and potentially/hopefully more to come which certainly won't be the case with sprinter sacre

so are you saying sprinter sacre is overated but uds isnt

yes and probably - but if only way for UDS doubters to be persuaded otherwise is for UDS to beat SS in QM, then only 8 weeks to wait

UDS beating an out of date SS won't convince me he's a better horse than SS in his pomp.

and thats the thing - his pomp wasn't much as below shows

and thats the thing - his pomp wasn't much as below shows

I think that it is perhaps fair to say that UDS has lot a little of his X factor, he now has a concern over his jumping and there is also the very real issue that even if he won the CC this year he'd be doing so due to the absence of Vautour, plenty will argue against that but it is at least a valid argument, one that I subscribe to.

I may be wrong but there seems to be an air of  the" mike Tyson in his pomp " factor   in that opponents are beaten before they start  with some of the mullins horses ,in last weekends race gary moore said we are not" putting it up" to the fav i.e( taking him on up front)  ,well he had 2 in the race in sire de grugy and traffic fluide and may be they are waiting till the big one and try different tactics then , but letting un de scaux have the race run to suit is asking for trouble, a bit like giving the ball to lionel messi and saying here lad we will sit back lets see what you can do ................

Gordon, his pomp = 188 whether you like it or not.  At the moment that equates to a good deal better than being off the bridle to get the better of Gods Own and beating an ageing Sire de Grugy.

Like you say, only 8 weeks to wait.  If he's the superstar you think he is he'll obviously be rated 188 or higher after Cheltenham, whether that rating is "a product of the current generation and their need for superstars and hype" or not.

Gordon, you may yet be proved right about UDS - but crabbing SS to prove your point is doing yourself few favours.
It's not just the winning margins of those victories (there's multiple G1 winners in those races btw), it was the manner of them. Just imperious, from the way he winged the fences to his habit of drawing clear without seeming to be under any pressure at all. In 30 years of watching the game, he had a 12 month period where I can't think of another horse that would've got him out of his comfort zone.
If UDS puts in a performance within 10lbs of what SS consistently acheived, he will win and be a very decent horse. So far we've a beating of Gods Own and the, nowadays, inconsistent SDG to go on for evidence.

cDammit! Crossed post Head, I look like a shameless plagiarist!

What he did to CC and a very decent Flemenstar at Aintree

Yeah, his best performance for me Duffy. Cue Card is one of the classiest intermediate horses there has been in the last 20 years and he just crushed him. In hindsight it probably contributed to SS's demise as I think the extra half mile meant him digging deeper than he ever had before - even if it looked effortless.
He certainly wasn't the same horse at Punchy the next day, despite winning. It was downhill thereafter.

Just watched it again. Incredible race. That was probably Cue Cards best ever performance too. They have run Flemenstar and Finians Rainbow absolutely ragged and they were no mugs.

Me too, say what you like about Hendo, love that emotion you get from him....he marmalized CC.....came past the line like he was going down to the start.

Anyone who crabs Sprinter's ability before his heart problems knows nothing about horses.

autocue - no crabbing, but the rating of 188 was too high for what he achieved, IMO the defeats of CC were probably his best and I suspect CC (late 2015 vintage) is better than he was at that time so even then can't take too literally

desmond - running against CC at a trip more in his favour was a very good run and coupled with the (diminished) defeat of SE could have been a factor in subsequent problems but all credit to trainer for letting him take his chance

desmond - also 30y plus of race watching and there were several others who took the breath away in same manner (dessie, kauto, badsworth boy to name but three - tingle creek, crisp a bit before my time) over a longer period of time and over a greater variety of distances than SS

headmaster - 188 and IMO not merited but as they say, all about opinions.  Personally I have been impressed with the enthusiasm and power which UDS races from his early hurdle runs and like most of us who are fans of NH racing, once one gets in your heart/head it's hard to let go..i hope he proves himself a great champion but he has a few years to get into my all time list like those above

I meant over 2 miles Gordon. As the name suggests, I stand behind no man in adoration of Dessie
I also absolutely adore Cue Card, he's my favourite horse since Dessie, and I wouldn't swap him winning this years CGC for a 10" c0ck. I want it so much I've not even backed him, if that makes any sense
But I suspect he was at his peak that year and couldn't get near SS - who was perhaps too good to truly love.

and I wouldn't swap him winning this years CGC for a 10" c0ck

you'd be right not too, it's no fun .

It's the thought of taking 2" off the tip......

DO - my heart wants CC, my head wants a V / Djak 1-2 for reasons mentioned on other thread and my pocket wants DC or RTR - you think youre mixed up - anyway back to the thread

Gordon, you're a very hard man to please if you think SS is overrated.

How many horses do the Cheltenham, Aintree, Punchestown treble in one season?  That was 3 Grade 1 wins in the space of 5 weeks, beating Sizing Europe (a QMCC and Arkle winner) twice in the process.

I'm convinced he would have won the Champion Chase as a novice too, if they felt like going for it.

If anything, I'd say he is overrated now, rather than in his prime.  He is rated 170 now; 1 pound more than after his Arkle win, but I'm convinced if the novice Sprinter raced the current Sprinter, it would be no contest.

Back to UDS, I too think he has lost some of his wow factor, but I don't necesarily see that as a negative.  That last run was more professional than any other, and it's ability and consistency that ends up being the winning formula, not being a loon but then falling every third race.

You may not win anyway but you aren't going to beat either UDS or Faugheen sitting off them. Both aren't the best jumpers so if you want to beat them you've got to force them to jump very fast and into a mistake.

Bt Lightening Rod 24l (6 ran)
Bt Peddlers Cross 16l (3 ran)
Bt French Opera 6l (6 ran)
Bt Cue Card 6l (7 ran) - OK decent run
Bt Toubab 13l (4 ran)
Bt Kumbeshwar 15l (7 ran)
Bt Mad Moose 14l (7 ran)
Bt Sizing Europe 19l (7 ran) - a master minded type run, never repeated
Bt Cue Card 4.5l (6 ran) - was this an improvement on earlier defeat of cue card? probably not but was over 20f which would have suited cc more
Bt Sizing Europe 5.5l (5 ran) - margin much less than in QM and probably an indicator of things to com

Lets be fair to sprinter this was a monster run for which his rating at the time was fully deserved, lets not forget this was a previous QM winner, who had run 2nd the previous year and who had plenty of festival form having won the Arkle as a novice. Can't have it that his rating was over-hyped he throughly deserved it for this performance and honestly it could have been further as those that were that day could attest to. You do not win Championship races this far, when you do they are exceptional horses. Sizing Europe was still a very very good horse and he was thrashed out of sight!

i also thought golden horn was overrated after beating the grey gatsby only for him to win the arc, so what do i know!

I understand what you are saying though Gordon, beating Cue card 6L & 7L i think stands the test of time. I really feel the heart problem has really stolen two years where he might have carried on hammering the opposition. I was really excited by the cheltenham comeback, just mugging SDG was a slight disappointment.

Bt Cue Card 4.5l (6 ran) - was this an improvement on earlier defeat of cue card? probably not but was over 20f which would have suited cc more

That and the fact it was incredibly easy. Who knows how much further it could have been but the visual impression was a rare experience.

not that you're guilty of it, but one race does not make a superstar -

voy por ustedes at the festival - won arkle by 1.25l in 14 runner field, won QM by 1.5l in 10 runner field, demolished 19l by master minded in 8 runner field (with Newmill previous QM further back and Twist Magic, winner of 2 x Tingle Creek, 1 x Punchestown 2m champion chase and 1 x VC)

it seemed VPU kept his form over that period based on other non-festival runs, so personally I'd rate master minded higher than anything sprinter did on that one run, however overall i would have sprinter ahead but not by much and as much as I'm not a huge fan of times master minded clocked 3m55.8 when handing out his 19l beating to VPU whereas sprinter clocked 4m0.2 on his 19l beating of sizing europe

Lets be fair to sprinter this was a monster run for which his rating at the time was fully deserved, lets not forget this was a previous QM winner, who had run 2nd the previous year and who had plenty of festival form having won the Arkle as a novice. Can't have it that his rating was over-hyped he throughly deserved it for this performance and honestly it could have been further as those that were that day could attest to. You do not win Championship races this far, when you do they are exceptional horses. Sizing Europe was still a very very good horse and he was thrashed out of sight!

Forget this argument ss or uds we will never know who would win in the race ss v uds in ss prime year!
What I want reminded of is what has jenny pitman got to do with odds on at the fez? Lol

The thing is though Gordon, Sprinter won the best Arkle I have ever seen, and likely to ever see to be honest. Going into the race, Menorah and Al Ferof were Supreme winners, Cue Card a bumper winner and Supreme fourth, and Blackstairmountain was a G1 winning hurdler in Ireland.

Since that race, SS has won 6 G1's (and would have been more), Cue Card has won 5 G1's, Menorah has won 1 G1 and 2 G2's, Al Ferof has won 3 G2's and a Paddy Power and Blackstairmountain has won a £450,000 G1 Chase in Japan.  That's a pretty impressive roll of honour for what you have simply put as "Bt Cue Card 6l (7 ran) - OK decent run".

The Master Minded race; that was a freak one off, albeit an absolutely amazing performance.  Remember though, Master Minded did that, but then got stuffed by Voy Por three weeks later at Aintree.  Sprinter won his Champion Chase, then hosed up at Aintree, and then won at Punchestown - a QMCC, a Melling Chase and then a Punchestown Champion Chase by a total of 28 lengths; in 5 weeks!!!

Nothing wrong at all in putting up a different view point, but for me it's a complete non argument.

I could go into how Well Chief was absolutely miles ahead of everything in Voy Por's QMCC, but that will bring me to tears

^^^Oh man i feel your pain^^^

Well Chief, oh the pain

One of many results that made me the punter i am today, as far as festivals and big handicaps go that is.

But that post should put our Gordon in his place eh

Gordon I am gobsmacked by your dismissal of SS.

Having been going races for more years than I care to remember and always going to the full Chelt festival; watching SS in the flesh before his health issues is possibly the finest display of jumping and class I have witnessed.

As others before me have pointed out he was demolishing multiple G1 winners with the utmost contempt. A real and true beast. He is still very decent despite his tribulations!

amazing how folk read into things..i started by saying SS overrated and UDS (probably) underrated and stand by that..IMO he is not (and I saw most of them in the flesh too!) up there with dessie, kauto or badsworth boy)

What I want reminded of is what has jenny pitman got to do with odds on at the fez? Lol Confused

Carvills Hill / Golden Freeze / Toby Tobias