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Been an amazing horse.
HURRICANE FLY, twice a winner of the Champion Hurdle, has been retired from racing, his trainer Willie Mullins has announced.
In a spellbinding career spanning ten seasons, Hurricane Fly won 24 of his 32 races over hurdles but, most tellingly, 22 of those victories came at Grade 1 level, a world record in horseracing.
Mullins took the decision together with the horse's owners George Creighton and Rose Boyd, bringing to an end an incredible hurdling career that saw the 11-year-old son of Montjeu become the preeminent two-miler of his generation.
The decision to retire almost came last year but connections rolled the dice for one more season, a verdict that yielded rich fruit: three Grade 1 victories last season including a record fifth-straight BHP Irish Champion Hurdle, this time in the autumn of his career.
Unbeaten at Leopardstown
For seven straight seasons and 30 races, he competed exclusively in Grade 1 company, his brilliance and durability enabling him set that world record of 22 Grade 1 career wins. Ten of those were in Grade 1s at Leopardstown, a venue at which he was never beaten. He was also a standing dish at Punchestown's top meetings, winning the last three Morgiana Hurdles.
As with most jumps horses, the pinnacle of his career, however, came at Cheltenham. For two consecutive seasons injury ruled Hurricane Fly out of the festival, so by the time he turned up for the Champion Hurdle of 2011, he already had eight Grade 1s in the locker.
He started favourite for the race and justified the confidence of connections and backers by beating Peddlers Cross and then, two years later, became the first horse since Comedy Of Errors in 1975 to regain his Champion Hurdle crown when he stormed up the hill under Ruby Walsh to beat Rock On Ruby.
Horse of a generation
His exploits saw him firmly established as one of the most popular jumps horses in training and yet for all his speed, class and jumping prowess, it was perhaps his bravery that epitomised his career.
"I don't think I have seen a horse that can battle like him," said Willie Mullins, his trainer describing Hurricane Fly as "the horse of a generation".
A statement from the owners spoke of their appreciation for their "champion" and his trainer.
The statement added: "The Creighton and Boyd families have been so privileged to own such a champion. He has produced us with so much joy for so long and we're delighted to retire him at this time.
"Of course a very big thanks must go to the family that is the Mullins yard, Harold Kirk, Gail (Carlisle), Paul (Townend) and Ruby (Walsh) to name a few. The door was always open to all our family members so they could be a part of this tremendous success story."
HURRICANE FLY, twice a winner of the Champion Hurdle, has been retired from racing, his trainer Willie Mullins has announced.
In a spellbinding career spanning ten seasons, Hurricane Fly won 24 of his 32 races over hurdles but, most tellingly, 22 of those victories came at Grade 1 level, a world record in horseracing.
Mullins took the decision together with the horse's owners George Creighton and Rose Boyd, bringing to an end an incredible hurdling career that saw the 11-year-old son of Montjeu become the preeminent two-miler of his generation.
The decision to retire almost came last year but connections rolled the dice for one more season, a verdict that yielded rich fruit: three Grade 1 victories last season including a record fifth-straight BHP Irish Champion Hurdle, this time in the autumn of his career.
Unbeaten at Leopardstown
For seven straight seasons and 30 races, he competed exclusively in Grade 1 company, his brilliance and durability enabling him set that world record of 22 Grade 1 career wins. Ten of those were in Grade 1s at Leopardstown, a venue at which he was never beaten. He was also a standing dish at Punchestown's top meetings, winning the last three Morgiana Hurdles.
As with most jumps horses, the pinnacle of his career, however, came at Cheltenham. For two consecutive seasons injury ruled Hurricane Fly out of the festival, so by the time he turned up for the Champion Hurdle of 2011, he already had eight Grade 1s in the locker.
He started favourite for the race and justified the confidence of connections and backers by beating Peddlers Cross and then, two years later, became the first horse since Comedy Of Errors in 1975 to regain his Champion Hurdle crown when he stormed up the hill under Ruby Walsh to beat Rock On Ruby.
Horse of a generation
His exploits saw him firmly established as one of the most popular jumps horses in training and yet for all his speed, class and jumping prowess, it was perhaps his bravery that epitomised his career.
"I don't think I have seen a horse that can battle like him," said Willie Mullins, his trainer describing Hurricane Fly as "the horse of a generation".
A statement from the owners spoke of their appreciation for their "champion" and his trainer.
The statement added: "The Creighton and Boyd families have been so privileged to own such a champion. He has produced us with so much joy for so long and we're delighted to retire him at this time.
"Of course a very big thanks must go to the family that is the Mullins yard, Harold Kirk, Gail (Carlisle), Paul (Townend) and Ruby (Walsh) to name a few. The door was always open to all our family members so they could be a part of this tremendous success story."
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The assessment would probably have to be that he was the best hurdler Ireland has ever produced on home turf.
His performances at Cheltenham were never as convincing, even in victory, though his Champion Hurdle record overall has been bettered by few.
He hardly ever made mistakes, had the speed, particularly when younger, to brush most opposition aside with contempt and then, when he became older, added the fiercest will to win to his armoury.
Very hard to think that his tally of Grade 1's will be beaten anytime soon.
One of the greats of the game.
His performances at Cheltenham were never as convincing, even in victory, though his Champion Hurdle record overall has been bettered by few.
He hardly ever made mistakes, had the speed, particularly when younger, to brush most opposition aside with contempt and then, when he became older, added the fiercest will to win to his armoury.
Very hard to think that his tally of Grade 1's will be beaten anytime soon.
One of the greats of the game.
Aww, that's great news 
Happy retirement Hurricane Fly
Happy retirement Hurricane Fly
Always sad when one retires and you know you'll never see them on a racecourse again, but made up he retires in one piece.
Best hurdler I've personally seen, and just short of Kauto in my all time fav's list. Backed him every single festival since 2009, whether he turned up or didn't.
Last a fortune on him antepost for the Supreme, and he would have walked that. When I first saw him smash Go Native as a novice, I knew he was something special.
Personally gutted that they never went to Aintree (my local track) and tried the Aintree Hurdle with him, because I think he could have had a few of them, judging by how close Thousands Stars went twice. Also, we made our way over to Ireland last year for the Irish Champion, with the sole purpose of seeing him on his own turf before he retired, but as luck would have it, he went for the three miler
From having glass ankles as a youngster to being bomb proof later in life, and his love of getting his head down and battling in a finish is what set him apart from me. His duels with Solwhit and Jezki will live long in the memory, as well as his first Champion against Peddlers Cross.
Best hurdler I've personally seen, and just short of Kauto in my all time fav's list. Backed him every single festival since 2009, whether he turned up or didn't.
Last a fortune on him antepost for the Supreme, and he would have walked that. When I first saw him smash Go Native as a novice, I knew he was something special.
Personally gutted that they never went to Aintree (my local track) and tried the Aintree Hurdle with him, because I think he could have had a few of them, judging by how close Thousands Stars went twice. Also, we made our way over to Ireland last year for the Irish Champion, with the sole purpose of seeing him on his own turf before he retired, but as luck would have it, he went for the three miler
From having glass ankles as a youngster to being bomb proof later in life, and his love of getting his head down and battling in a finish is what set him apart from me. His duels with Solwhit and Jezki will live long in the memory, as well as his first Champion against Peddlers Cross.
Well said wellchief. A stubborn and determined blighter was what I loved about him and certainly one of the best jumpers of a hurdle imo.
Shame he missed the Champion Hurdle as a 6yo and whatever problem he had when he lost when he was 8. Most certainly as talented enough as any of the triple winners that came before him. Goes down with Kauto as a legend due to his exploits away from Cheltenham as much as his ones at it.
Very admirable sort, and I would hate to detract from his achievements, but he was extremely well handled and placed, and won a host of soft Grade Ones consistently beating the same horse(s)
Not in Istabraqs league, not a bit of it.
HF beat Peddlers Cross and Rock on Ruby to win his Champion Hurdles. Fair enough, Istabraq was beating Theatreworld, but he was murdering him, and the rest. Had Rock on Ruby not got a brain dead ride in HFs second CH win, he may well have beaten him. Again. And that's not pocket talk, I had a good bet on HF that day.
He achieved nothing the like of what Kauto did, not in the same parish. Kauto was different gravy altogether, one for all ages. He was murdering real top notchers, not Thousand Stars, Rock on Ruby, Solwhit and the likes.
His longevity and willingness in a fight were huge assets, and like his 22 Grade Ones, they cant be taken from him.
But most of those Grade Ones were that in name only. One of the all time great hurdlers/NH horses??
Not in my book.
Not in Istabraqs league, not a bit of it.
HF beat Peddlers Cross and Rock on Ruby to win his Champion Hurdles. Fair enough, Istabraq was beating Theatreworld, but he was murdering him, and the rest. Had Rock on Ruby not got a brain dead ride in HFs second CH win, he may well have beaten him. Again. And that's not pocket talk, I had a good bet on HF that day.
He achieved nothing the like of what Kauto did, not in the same parish. Kauto was different gravy altogether, one for all ages. He was murdering real top notchers, not Thousand Stars, Rock on Ruby, Solwhit and the likes.
His longevity and willingness in a fight were huge assets, and like his 22 Grade Ones, they cant be taken from him.
But most of those Grade Ones were that in name only. One of the all time great hurdlers/NH horses??
Not in my book.
Not once in his entire career did Istabraq face anything above a mediocre horse. Yet Fly still won more Irish Champion Hurdles.
Fly holds a world record, Istabraq does not. That's the reality.
Fly holds a world record, Istabraq does not. That's the reality.
"Fly holds a world record, Istabraq does not. That's the reality."
The actual reality is that HF competed in a racing world which handed out G1s hurdles every day. In Istabraq era there were only the Champion Hurdle, Hattons Grace and AIG in the whole calendar and he still had 14 won. If you take away from HF all the Morgianas and December Hurldes which weren't there or were G2s in Istabraq era then Fly's record is not a record anymore with only 13 G1s. I can't imagine Istabraq at his best being beaten by the likes of ROR, etc.
Lets not even mention that in the last 2 years Mullins hold the best cards and kept them separated only to give Fly a swift road in Ireland, with UDS, Annie and Faugheen all capable of competing in the AIG and Istabraq Hurlde but were left at home to watch the grass grow.
Take nothing away from HF, he deserves many accolades he gets, but lets also not make him greater than he was in reality. I'm sure people in future will do that better than us when the formbook will be lost and won't understand that beating of ROR and Countrywide Flame by 2-3 lengths is not in the same parish of what Istabraq did in his time.
The actual reality is that HF competed in a racing world which handed out G1s hurdles every day. In Istabraq era there were only the Champion Hurdle, Hattons Grace and AIG in the whole calendar and he still had 14 won. If you take away from HF all the Morgianas and December Hurldes which weren't there or were G2s in Istabraq era then Fly's record is not a record anymore with only 13 G1s. I can't imagine Istabraq at his best being beaten by the likes of ROR, etc.
Lets not even mention that in the last 2 years Mullins hold the best cards and kept them separated only to give Fly a swift road in Ireland, with UDS, Annie and Faugheen all capable of competing in the AIG and Istabraq Hurlde but were left at home to watch the grass grow.
Take nothing away from HF, he deserves many accolades he gets, but lets also not make him greater than he was in reality. I'm sure people in future will do that better than us when the formbook will be lost and won't understand that beating of ROR and Countrywide Flame by 2-3 lengths is not in the same parish of what Istabraq did in his time.
People will defend whomever they revered more. Bottom line is they never raced eachother and both were among the best hurdlers to ever grace a racecourse.
Erm, those complaining that Hurricane Fly beat little and that Istabraq was better are forgetting that the latter competed in the weakest ever era of hurdling in the past 45 years (By far). He really had so little to beat.
Hurricane Fly beat several generations of pretenders, many of whom were serial Grade One winners in their own right.
His lesser performances at Cheltenham were the only conceivable blemish on his record, and to bag a couple of Champions ain't too shabby.
No-one has ever been able to tell me of a single top class two mile hurdler Istabraq ever faced. Not his fault, of course, but let's not pretend the level of his performances come anywhere near the Fly.
Hurricane Fly beat several generations of pretenders, many of whom were serial Grade One winners in their own right.
His lesser performances at Cheltenham were the only conceivable blemish on his record, and to bag a couple of Champions ain't too shabby.
No-one has ever been able to tell me of a single top class two mile hurdler Istabraq ever faced. Not his fault, of course, but let's not pretend the level of his performances come anywhere near the Fly.
Why does everyone say his performances at Chelt were lesser?
Far more realistic that they are as good as he is. Soft ground sprints around Leop and Punch beating Thousand Stars are no better than his CH demises.
Peddlers Cross or Rock o Ruby wouldn't have got near Moscow Flyer over 2mile over hurdles, and neither would they have beaten Limestone Lad over 2m4f.
Far more realistic that they are as good as he is. Soft ground sprints around Leop and Punch beating Thousand Stars are no better than his CH demises.
Peddlers Cross or Rock o Ruby wouldn't have got near Moscow Flyer over 2mile over hurdles, and neither would they have beaten Limestone Lad over 2m4f.
Disagree with both those statements. Quite a few handicappers more than got near to Moscow Flyer in his hurdling days. Great chaser though he was, his hurdles form was nothing special. As for Limestone Lad over two and a half miles, the one time he met Istabraq over that distance, he beat him!
Still awaiting a top class two miler that Istabraq beat. Could be a long wait.
Still awaiting a top class two miler that Istabraq beat. Could be a long wait.
Hurricane Fly has faced tough opposition all through his career, and I don't think his Grade 1's in Ireland were soft. Small fields, yes, but they weren't soft.
Solwhit and Jezki are both fine horses, and Solwhit would have given Big Bucks a good run for his money at their peak. Add Our Conor to the latter races, the up and coming star who couldn't beat an ageing Fly.
Peddlers Cross and Rock on Ruby are no mugs, and were rated in the 170's at certain parts of their career.
The Fly was well placed, as you say, and it's a shame Annie or UDS never faced him, but Nicholls never used to run Kauto and Denman against each other apart from the Gold Cup, so it's nothing new.
The Fly never fell or unseated in 32 races, and I can't ever remember him clouting one - his hurdling technique was brilliant.
Solwhit and Jezki are both fine horses, and Solwhit would have given Big Bucks a good run for his money at their peak. Add Our Conor to the latter races, the up and coming star who couldn't beat an ageing Fly.
Peddlers Cross and Rock on Ruby are no mugs, and were rated in the 170's at certain parts of their career.
The Fly was well placed, as you say, and it's a shame Annie or UDS never faced him, but Nicholls never used to run Kauto and Denman against each other apart from the Gold Cup, so it's nothing new.
The Fly never fell or unseated in 32 races, and I can't ever remember him clouting one - his hurdling technique was brilliant.
A fine summary, wellchief.
I would guess that The Fly probably beat more Grade 1 winners than any other horse, hurdles or fences.
I would guess that The Fly probably beat more Grade 1 winners than any other horse, hurdles or fences.
Jezki out for the season as well so a new season of hurdling begins without 2 past CH winners.
Have to confess I did not realise their were more grade1's in Ireland these days,although it comes of no surprise as their doors seem to be one come along fairly often.
Anyway 2 great horses HF and Istabraq,and not really right nor fair to compare generations by having a pop at one or the other.
Happy retirement fly,well deserved.
Anyway 2 great horses HF and Istabraq,and not really right nor fair to compare generations by having a pop at one or the other.
Happy retirement fly,well deserved.
How do we rate the great national hunt horses? For me it has to be based on ability, durability and longevity.
I would say the best of the last 35 years are, in random order, kauto Star, desert Orchid, The fellow, dawn run,best mate, moscow flyer, istabraq, big bucks and hurricane fly. These were the real deal, really brilliant horses. Others have threatened to make that list but didnt make the cut on the grounds of durabilty/longevity such as see you then, long run, denman, master minded, sprinter sacre(though he could still get there
Some people put far too much emphasis on the Cheltenham festival when comparing horses... Desert orchid went there 8 times, winning once but he was way better than lord windermere. Best mate won more gold cups than Kauto star, who ran at 7 festivals, winning twice, but that didnt make him the better horse.Anybody measuring Hurricane Fly's ability by his Cheltenham appearances alone have completely missed the boat.
Those who say Hurricane Fly's 22 grade 1's were soft touches or were somehow carefully hand-picked need certifying. There are 4 open grade 1 hurdles run over 2 miles in Ireland each year as well as 4 in the UK. The Fly ran in these 4 races plus the Champion Hurdle every year for six years,when injury-free, up until this year's punchestown festival.There was no hand-picking there.I can only think of one, the Morgiana 2013 when he beat Marito that could be called a substandard grade 1. Each and every other race he ran was a proper grade 1 and of a far higher standard than the Fighting Fifth, Bula and Xmas Hurdles run in the same period across the pond. Thousand Stars never got the Fly off the bridle but was a top class horse himself who won 2 french champions,a morgiana,and nutted on the line in 2 aintree hurdles. But he wasnt in the Fly's league and the 3 times he finished second to the fly the horses back in third were binocular(twice) and rock on ruby.... 2 champion hurdle winners themselves.
Solwhit, Jezki, Our Conor, Go Native, Rock On Ruby, were all top drawer.How great would these have looked if the Fly hadnt existed. In the UK, The New One and My Tent are miles ahead of the rest. Faugheen and Arctic Fire have joined the party. Its a proper golden era for hurdlers. The standard has been light years ahead of anything Istabraq had to face and yet the fly stayed at the top for 6 years.
If you compare the Fly with Istabraq, 2 great horses and stop the clock at the end of their 9th years, ie Istabraq's last win.Both had superb records and I'd find it hard to choose the best... Istabraq raced 28 times winning 23. Beaten as a novice and by Pridwell and Limestone Lad. The Fly had raced 22 times winning 20, beaten by Solwhit and Rock On Ruby. But Istabraq had fallen twice as a 9 y o and his last win was all out by a head from Bust Out. He was clearly in decline as most top 2 mile hurdlers are at 9 and was retired after the following years champion hurdle. The Fly got 2 more seasons at the very top winning 4 more grade 1s as a veteran,beating Jezki, a champion hurdler in his prime and for that reason I would rate The Fly as the best hurdler I have seen.
Finally 2 points to finish a long homage to the king.... neither Un de sceux nor annie power would ever, not in a million years, have had a sniff in the last 2 champion hurdles. They were not nearly good enough.
Secondly the comparison with Fly and Kauto is futile but interesting nonetheless.Ruby... They were both at the top of the tree for 6 years.... they both regained their cheltenham trophies by beating those who dethroned them(ROR and Denman).... having been dethroned a second time they both came back in old age to regularly embarrass the young pretenders(Jezki and Long Run) and they both raced 31 times.Enough said
I would say the best of the last 35 years are, in random order, kauto Star, desert Orchid, The fellow, dawn run,best mate, moscow flyer, istabraq, big bucks and hurricane fly. These were the real deal, really brilliant horses. Others have threatened to make that list but didnt make the cut on the grounds of durabilty/longevity such as see you then, long run, denman, master minded, sprinter sacre(though he could still get there
Some people put far too much emphasis on the Cheltenham festival when comparing horses... Desert orchid went there 8 times, winning once but he was way better than lord windermere. Best mate won more gold cups than Kauto star, who ran at 7 festivals, winning twice, but that didnt make him the better horse.Anybody measuring Hurricane Fly's ability by his Cheltenham appearances alone have completely missed the boat.
Those who say Hurricane Fly's 22 grade 1's were soft touches or were somehow carefully hand-picked need certifying. There are 4 open grade 1 hurdles run over 2 miles in Ireland each year as well as 4 in the UK. The Fly ran in these 4 races plus the Champion Hurdle every year for six years,when injury-free, up until this year's punchestown festival.There was no hand-picking there.I can only think of one, the Morgiana 2013 when he beat Marito that could be called a substandard grade 1. Each and every other race he ran was a proper grade 1 and of a far higher standard than the Fighting Fifth, Bula and Xmas Hurdles run in the same period across the pond. Thousand Stars never got the Fly off the bridle but was a top class horse himself who won 2 french champions,a morgiana,and nutted on the line in 2 aintree hurdles. But he wasnt in the Fly's league and the 3 times he finished second to the fly the horses back in third were binocular(twice) and rock on ruby.... 2 champion hurdle winners themselves.
Solwhit, Jezki, Our Conor, Go Native, Rock On Ruby, were all top drawer.How great would these have looked if the Fly hadnt existed. In the UK, The New One and My Tent are miles ahead of the rest. Faugheen and Arctic Fire have joined the party. Its a proper golden era for hurdlers. The standard has been light years ahead of anything Istabraq had to face and yet the fly stayed at the top for 6 years.
If you compare the Fly with Istabraq, 2 great horses and stop the clock at the end of their 9th years, ie Istabraq's last win.Both had superb records and I'd find it hard to choose the best... Istabraq raced 28 times winning 23. Beaten as a novice and by Pridwell and Limestone Lad. The Fly had raced 22 times winning 20, beaten by Solwhit and Rock On Ruby. But Istabraq had fallen twice as a 9 y o and his last win was all out by a head from Bust Out. He was clearly in decline as most top 2 mile hurdlers are at 9 and was retired after the following years champion hurdle. The Fly got 2 more seasons at the very top winning 4 more grade 1s as a veteran,beating Jezki, a champion hurdler in his prime and for that reason I would rate The Fly as the best hurdler I have seen.
Finally 2 points to finish a long homage to the king.... neither Un de sceux nor annie power would ever, not in a million years, have had a sniff in the last 2 champion hurdles. They were not nearly good enough.
Secondly the comparison with Fly and Kauto is futile but interesting nonetheless.Ruby... They were both at the top of the tree for 6 years.... they both regained their cheltenham trophies by beating those who dethroned them(ROR and Denman).... having been dethroned a second time they both came back in old age to regularly embarrass the young pretenders(Jezki and Long Run) and they both raced 31 times.Enough said
Great post. I was guilty of undervaluing the The Fly. Not any more. Thanks for putting the facts down and putting me straight.
Now, can you give me the 1-2-3 for this years Champion Hurdle at Cheltenham.
Now, can you give me the 1-2-3 for this years Champion Hurdle at Cheltenham.
Unplaced 3 times (form 342) and only 8 horses have finished ahead of him in his entire hurdling career. Legend.
well it's all opinion,mine is that UDS would have won at least 1 champion hurdle,
How anyone can say with that sort of confidence he would be that far away from winning one is beyond me.
Judging by the time of the post I suggest a few drinks may have been had!!
How anyone can say with that sort of confidence he would be that far away from winning one is beyond me.
Judging by the time of the post I suggest a few drinks may have been had!!
Great post Firstimevisor, really well put and having read it it's hard to argue with most of it.
However, like Budd I don't think you can say UDS wouldn't have had a sniff in the Churdle. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but we all know he should have run in the 2014 Champion and then there wouldn't have been an argument would there? FWIW I think he'd have won.
However, like Budd I don't think you can say UDS wouldn't have had a sniff in the Churdle. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but we all know he should have run in the 2014 Champion and then there wouldn't have been an argument would there? FWIW I think he'd have won.
@shockster whoever argues that See You Then & Master Minded don't make the cut as a great horses is not worth reading. Denman & Sprinter Sacre were near invincible before their injuries as well but they had few years of proving their worth as great horses.
To top this off saying that UDS and AP weren't legible for CH when we all know they were purposely kept apart in fear they might overthrone the Fly. Had Fly placed in 2014 CH then neither Faugheen or Vautour would've been send hurdling and thats a fact because it happened the previous year with UDS and AP. Faugheen kept home on Irish CH, why? UDS kept away from `14 CH, why?
Trying to make Fly a better horse than Istabraq by denigrating his rivals easy to debunk. Fly is a great, won 2 CH but telling us that Istabraq faced easier competition when Hors La Loi(CH `02 winner) was how many lengths behind him in `00 CH ? Theatreworld runner-up in `97 CH, 5 lengths behind Make a Stand then beaten by 12 lengths in `98 by Istabraq. What did Fly beat in `11 ? 1 length Peddlers Cross who was a good horse admittedly but not greater than either Hors la Loi or French Holly who were how many lengths behind Istabraq in `99 CH ? Then beaten in `12 by a good gallop up front who the Fly never met in Ireland and then beaten the same horses in `13 with the Soft ground on his side and hugely against ROR. Then a new generation comes along in `14, beats them with his flat speed in Irish muddy surface & slowly run races and comes short on CH day for which Jezki was primed for. An even better generation came in `15 and did well to come 7 lengths behind an unfit Faugheen who was kept home watching grass grow instead of having a prep run in the Irish CH.
To top this off saying that UDS and AP weren't legible for CH when we all know they were purposely kept apart in fear they might overthrone the Fly. Had Fly placed in 2014 CH then neither Faugheen or Vautour would've been send hurdling and thats a fact because it happened the previous year with UDS and AP. Faugheen kept home on Irish CH, why? UDS kept away from `14 CH, why?
Trying to make Fly a better horse than Istabraq by denigrating his rivals easy to debunk. Fly is a great, won 2 CH but telling us that Istabraq faced easier competition when Hors La Loi(CH `02 winner) was how many lengths behind him in `00 CH ? Theatreworld runner-up in `97 CH, 5 lengths behind Make a Stand then beaten by 12 lengths in `98 by Istabraq. What did Fly beat in `11 ? 1 length Peddlers Cross who was a good horse admittedly but not greater than either Hors la Loi or French Holly who were how many lengths behind Istabraq in `99 CH ? Then beaten in `12 by a good gallop up front who the Fly never met in Ireland and then beaten the same horses in `13 with the Soft ground on his side and hugely against ROR. Then a new generation comes along in `14, beats them with his flat speed in Irish muddy surface & slowly run races and comes short on CH day for which Jezki was primed for. An even better generation came in `15 and did well to come 7 lengths behind an unfit Faugheen who was kept home watching grass grow instead of having a prep run in the Irish CH.
A valid defence of Istabraq Timtin, and all noted. I think that Firstimevisor was more about longevity. Both horses were fabulous and I actually agree that some of HFlys latter G1's were soft by not facing his own stable stars. However, he still had to beat the rest and he did that at 11yrs old whether it was a soft race or not. Impossible to say at their peak who was best, we're all just guessing. FWIW Sprinter at his best is the best I've seen since I started watching in the early 80's, but it was too brief like Masterminded.
I think it says a lot about the Fly that he could win two Champion Hurdles on ground much faster than ideal, where he was effectively playing away from home.
When he had his ideal conditions he was almost unbeatable, and it's just unfortunate for him that his ideals were not replicated on the biggest of stages.
Because of the unique conditions of the festival (fast ground and undulating track) it makes us underestimate ones that didn't act too well around there, and overrate some who thrived at that one particular meeting.
Quick examples of the top of my head are Conti and Albertas Run. Conti has never been good around Cheltenham but is a fantastic horse, and is very underrated in my opinion. Albertas Run could not normally buy a win throughout the season, and would then come into his own in March, its just some are lucky that the organisers decided that Cheltenham on fast ground as the venue of the cup final.
When he had his ideal conditions he was almost unbeatable, and it's just unfortunate for him that his ideals were not replicated on the biggest of stages.
Because of the unique conditions of the festival (fast ground and undulating track) it makes us underestimate ones that didn't act too well around there, and overrate some who thrived at that one particular meeting.
Quick examples of the top of my head are Conti and Albertas Run. Conti has never been good around Cheltenham but is a fantastic horse, and is very underrated in my opinion. Albertas Run could not normally buy a win throughout the season, and would then come into his own in March, its just some are lucky that the organisers decided that Cheltenham on fast ground as the venue of the cup final.
fair points chief as always.
I said earlier I don't think it fair to compare generations by having a pop at either of these great horses.
But those that do want to do that, try and do it right., and compare them over the 2m distance imo.
Don't bring up pridwell beating Istabraq in a bog over 2and half miles. Fly beat Solwhit and Thousand Stars in a fair amount of races,it can be argued that both of those were better over further than 2m.
We can all state things to try and prove one is better than the other,but never can prove the case.
Over 2m on Good/soft ground at their peak............good luck to anyone trying to work out who would win.!! Dead heat? That will do me.
I said earlier I don't think it fair to compare generations by having a pop at either of these great horses.
But those that do want to do that, try and do it right., and compare them over the 2m distance imo.
Don't bring up pridwell beating Istabraq in a bog over 2and half miles. Fly beat Solwhit and Thousand Stars in a fair amount of races,it can be argued that both of those were better over further than 2m.
We can all state things to try and prove one is better than the other,but never can prove the case.
Over 2m on Good/soft ground at their peak............good luck to anyone trying to work out who would win.!! Dead heat? That will do me.
Buddilea, I'd settle for a dead heat too. The fly has absolutely earned the right to comparisons with the all time greats, including Istabraq.Its just that some people deny this.
We should not hang labels on the top hurdlers as regards their distance.Is a "specialist" 2m hurdler not just a nice way of describing a dubious or non stayer? I can think of very few top notch "2 milers" who wouldnt stay 3m. Istabraq regularly switched between 2m and 2.5m all through his career.The fly beat Solwhit over 2.5m. National hunt horses are stayers and 2 miles is not a sprint. Solwhit beat Punjabi, Quevega and Sizing Europe in a 2m grade 1 as a 5yo, weeks after Punjabi's champion hurdle. He won 4 other 2m grade 1s and after being beaten 4 consecutive times by the fly, charles byrnes decided he wouldnt take on the fly again and if that meant stepping up in trip then so be it. When he won the world hurdle and the aintree equivalent, he beat smad place roughly 5 lengths each time, not by superior stamina but by superior speed. These were 2 of his "soft" grade 1s. The difficult grade 1s were when he faced the fly!
My point about the defeats to pridwell,limestone,solwhit and r o r was that any horse can get beaten on a given day by a horse they would ordinarily beat. Golden horn lost to arabian queen at york this year but would you expect the same result if they met again? He isnt just judged on that one group 1
I dont believe Fly was really ground-dependent... it never became an issue of debate until he was 9. Maybe it affected him in later life but I'm not convinced-he won several on good and was beaten on heavy.Regardless of the fly, there seems to be an increasing trend towards dismissing soft or heavy ground form as irrelevant...good ground performers seem to be flavour of the month for some.But jumps racing is essentially a winter sport, the proper season runs from october to april. Unless there is a dramatic climate change, 95% of all races run in that period will be run on soft or heavy.As wellchief said, the typical ground conditions at cheltenham in march are no more "championship conditions" for the jumpers than longchamp in october represents championship conditions on the flat. Up until the late 70s the festival was invariably run on heavy ground. It was the constant risk of abandonment that brought about the extensive drainage programme. This actually worked so well that, unintentionally, the ground becomes so fast in march that it now usually needs watering.
Timtin, in my opinion, annie wouldn't have had the speed to threaten the big guns in the champion h. If she had the necessary turn of foot she would have picked off more of that.And she did stay. UDS didnt know how to race when he was hurdling. No way could he have beaten that lot when he was running with the choke out. A few weeks after cheltenham he ran in a grade 2 in france and won a nose getting 8 pounds from the runner up. That was the first time he faced a decent horse. As for Faugheen not being fit!! Now i'd say willie got it right all year...the fly did win those 3 great races after all. Would faugheen have won them at that time of his career, just out of novice company taking on 2 seriously talented battle-hardened champion hurdle winners? Maybe but i would be far from certain, and even if he had, would he have been the same horse in cheltenham or would he have flattened out? Your guess as good as mine.Different horses, different constitutions.
We should not hang labels on the top hurdlers as regards their distance.Is a "specialist" 2m hurdler not just a nice way of describing a dubious or non stayer? I can think of very few top notch "2 milers" who wouldnt stay 3m. Istabraq regularly switched between 2m and 2.5m all through his career.The fly beat Solwhit over 2.5m. National hunt horses are stayers and 2 miles is not a sprint. Solwhit beat Punjabi, Quevega and Sizing Europe in a 2m grade 1 as a 5yo, weeks after Punjabi's champion hurdle. He won 4 other 2m grade 1s and after being beaten 4 consecutive times by the fly, charles byrnes decided he wouldnt take on the fly again and if that meant stepping up in trip then so be it. When he won the world hurdle and the aintree equivalent, he beat smad place roughly 5 lengths each time, not by superior stamina but by superior speed. These were 2 of his "soft" grade 1s. The difficult grade 1s were when he faced the fly!
My point about the defeats to pridwell,limestone,solwhit and r o r was that any horse can get beaten on a given day by a horse they would ordinarily beat. Golden horn lost to arabian queen at york this year but would you expect the same result if they met again? He isnt just judged on that one group 1
I dont believe Fly was really ground-dependent... it never became an issue of debate until he was 9. Maybe it affected him in later life but I'm not convinced-he won several on good and was beaten on heavy.Regardless of the fly, there seems to be an increasing trend towards dismissing soft or heavy ground form as irrelevant...good ground performers seem to be flavour of the month for some.But jumps racing is essentially a winter sport, the proper season runs from october to april. Unless there is a dramatic climate change, 95% of all races run in that period will be run on soft or heavy.As wellchief said, the typical ground conditions at cheltenham in march are no more "championship conditions" for the jumpers than longchamp in october represents championship conditions on the flat. Up until the late 70s the festival was invariably run on heavy ground. It was the constant risk of abandonment that brought about the extensive drainage programme. This actually worked so well that, unintentionally, the ground becomes so fast in march that it now usually needs watering.
Timtin, in my opinion, annie wouldn't have had the speed to threaten the big guns in the champion h. If she had the necessary turn of foot she would have picked off more of that.And she did stay. UDS didnt know how to race when he was hurdling. No way could he have beaten that lot when he was running with the choke out. A few weeks after cheltenham he ran in a grade 2 in france and won a nose getting 8 pounds from the runner up. That was the first time he faced a decent horse. As for Faugheen not being fit!! Now i'd say willie got it right all year...the fly did win those 3 great races after all. Would faugheen have won them at that time of his career, just out of novice company taking on 2 seriously talented battle-hardened champion hurdle winners? Maybe but i would be far from certain, and even if he had, would he have been the same horse in cheltenham or would he have flattened out? Your guess as good as mine.Different horses, different constitutions.
fair pints made their mate.
My point was that IF one wants to compare 2 horses from different eras trying to work out which was best,, imo they should do it over the distance they won their best races over and the distance they were best known for on ground they were best suited to,probably good to soft would be fairest I guess. So for me it's better to just compare over 2m in their optimum conditions.
As for UDS, we really don't know do we,his trainer never put him in a top hurdle race against the other top horses.
So for me it's a visual thing,and what I saw was possibly the most exciting hurdler I've ever seen......just love front runners over the 2m distance.
What I am pretty sure of,he's wel on his way to doing that over fences,imo he would have done the same over hurdles,but it's only my opinion.
My point was that IF one wants to compare 2 horses from different eras trying to work out which was best,, imo they should do it over the distance they won their best races over and the distance they were best known for on ground they were best suited to,probably good to soft would be fairest I guess. So for me it's better to just compare over 2m in their optimum conditions.
As for UDS, we really don't know do we,his trainer never put him in a top hurdle race against the other top horses.
So for me it's a visual thing,and what I saw was possibly the most exciting hurdler I've ever seen......just love front runners over the 2m distance.
What I am pretty sure of,he's wel on his way to doing that over fences,imo he would have done the same over hurdles,but it's only my opinion.
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