Un De Sceaux and Willie Mullins

He went over hurdles cos he was a Shiite jumper of a fence !

its impossible to say. his chasing career could have been different with henderson or any other trainer. the owner was clearly happy to win the world hurdle every year and always talked down the possibility of going over fences.

maybe they were schooling him over fences at home and he just wasnt jumping well. his hurdling was mustard in his later years.

chasing and hurdling are worlds apart

seems many are prepared to crab UDS because of the opposition he has faced and the races he didn't run in - WPM is clearly a very talented trainer but perhaps this is a case of not realising how good UDS actually is or maybe an owner who is not very assertive about raising his horse in class or another multitude of reasons HOWEVER notwithstanding good to firm going which it won't be on the first day of the festival unless the watering system fails! i believe UDS will win the arkle after romping the irish arkle this weekend

WPM is clearly a very talented trainer



and sometimes inept at the placement of his horses

For what it's worth, I've just been looking at Tues results of last year and Timeform have the ground as being Good to Firm. Number of track records broken I think that day as well so Prob stacks up.

If we get similar weather then there's every chance it could be the same this year

Tory that would put catch amongst the Mullins bankers? Re the going UDS wont be showing for sure or The Fly.

alleged22 20 Jan 15 21:51 Joined: 18 Feb 12 | Topic/replies: 3,867 | Blogger: alleged22's blog
WPM is clearly a very talented trainer

and sometimes inept at the placement of his horses

Absolutely no question what so ever that if I owned UDS I'd go pot hunting, who gives a flying fck about prestige prizes when Mullins has managed to get the owner £180,000 in prize money from is handful of hurdle runs while the horse was 6yo. Utterly stunning stuff.

Good to Firm


Number of track records broken I think that day as well





wasn't there a diferent method employed regarding the timings of the races resulting in the fast times........

Yep Tory - Vautour broke the track record, then Jezki broke it again. Was seriously quick ground, I'm hoping it comes up soft as always. I'd love to see Fly run a huge race at 11yo.

Absolutely no question what so ever that if I owned UDS I'd go pot hunting, who gives a flying fck about prestige prizes when Mullins has managed to get the owner £180,000 in prize money from is handful of hurdle runs while the horse was 6yo. Utterly stunning stuff.


if I owned uds and he was as good as they say id want the prestige  if im honest.....

Was definitely good ground though alleged,was really warm,nearly got the six pack out !

If Mullins warned he wasn't ready for a Champion Hurdle after only 5 career runs all on soft ground, that we'd go for 50k in France in March instead and and then 65k in April where we'd be sure he'd get his ground. I'd take the 115 thousand pounds. One hundred and fifteeen thousand pounds. Without even a hint of a question. The horse would have a new jockey and super quick ground and the best Champion Hurdle field see in a long long time to face as a 6yo. With the reasoning being, people wanted my horse in there to ensure a strong pace.

Of course trying to win money rather than chucking your horse into a race you and your trainer feel is too much too soon for him is something of a big big sin.


Highland Retreat goes to Limerick on 15th March for a €30,000 first prize Grade 2 Mares Chase. She'll get her ground and hopefully a very beatable field. But of course she should run at Cheltenham where we've no chance of prize money in an RSA. Or is Harry wrong not going for prestige??

Bit different Cv to compare,personally don't think uds would have ran last year on that ground,never mind win it,at least we will find out how good he is!

If they thought he was good enough for a Champion Hurdle he'd be going for it this year and not sending both UDS chasing. I think Mullins felt UDS would set up the race for others who could change gears on good ground, where galloping and jumping is far more achievable from the front over fences. I expect they schooled him and saw he was a natural over the fences and so felt he had to go chasing.

For me, nothing can beat a horse making all over 2 miles over fences. People just plain love it. Remember how excited people got for Sanctuaire after he made all in the Celebration Chase. I loved Twist Magic making all to win his 2nd Tingle Creek.

They have faugheen,agree regarding jumping though,looked ok apart from 1 fence,certainly is good watching a front runner,especially over 2 mile !

I must admit that whilst my pocket would like UDS to suffer a not very serious set back, but just enough to make him miss Chelt and have Vautour rerouted to the arkle, I am quite excited at the prospect of watching him do his thing in the arkle.

He's looked a natural jumper from his first fence and it will be great to watch.

I still think that the prospect of good or better ground coupled with some down hill fences could be his undoing but who knows

Downhill fences?What difference will they make?If your driving a car down a hill your gonna slow down,(or at least you should)
Do you not think one of the best jockeys to sit on a horse isn't going to have the brain power to do something similar?

Not if he's simply a passenger, which is what he essentially is with UDS

ruby is a passenger on most horses.

Good man Cacique. It took you over seven years to think up that gem.

lets see what smashing does for the form

Wins well.

I think he'll have everyone converted come Sunday evening. I think he's gonna do a demolition job and then win the Arkle by over 10l. He's a relentless machine, he just goes such a gallop from the flag fall and maintains is all the way to the line.

Smashing who he slaughtered lto just won a beginners chase by 29l today.

Really looking forward to seeing him in the flesh - I think Clarcam is a huge price at 9/2 getting 10lb on Sunday and will back him accordingly, but I am very excited to see UDS.

I know Willie likes to give multiple entries but can someone give me the scenario which means Un De Sceaux will run in the JLT which he's got an entry especially after he has told everybody he is a dead 2 miler?

What is the point of the entry???

I understand re Vautour why 2 but UDS???   I fail to understand.

He enters all his novices in all races. Always has always will.

Assume the thinking is if the horse gets a tiny setback, like a small stone bruise and misses the Arkle and then Vautour is ruled out of the JLT. He'll let UDS hav a shot at the longer trip. It's why he always entered Quevega in the World Hurdle. His exact words were if she got lost on her way to the track or something like that.

Nuts if you ask me CV.

Why is it nuts? What harm is an entry doing?

I'm a tight Yorkshireman and it's a complete waste of money which I appreciate Ricci can afford.

It's not about the cash for guys like RR he has more than enough of that is about the kudos he receives when his silks scoop up the races as the festival, he's a lucky guy with some standout horses it's exciting times for him on the run up to the festival and hes correct to keep all his options open.

UDS
FAUGHEEN
VAUTOUR
ANNIE P
etc, etc wow just wow.

He doesn't own UDS mate.

UDS ????

OOPS TOO MUCH VINO SILLY ME........

After beating Smashing hard held by 12L last time, some posters labelled the race a "donkey Derby".
After Smashing has now won by 29L can we presume UDS might be pretty special. Or was today's race a Grade 3 donkey Derby?

That's just collector,he gets a tad carried away with his dislike for UDS cos he backed Vautour for the Arkle.

started to get excited about UDS in the Irish Arkle, glad I kept the faith after he fell first time as the prices stood up well for a while after. Just fingers crossed he is as good as I imagine. Think it will be a cracking race, had a watch of the Gilgamboa video last night and thought he jumped very neatly so certainly worthy opposition.

I think UDS will be odds on in the Arkle and probably every race he ever runs in again tbh. He is utterly relentless and a superb jumper, nothing will be able to go with him.

The skill with front running is judging the pace and knowing when to kick on, when to slow up and fill your horse up, see R Walsh in last 2 Supreme Novice Hurdles. But UDS is different, he can just go hard from the start and keep it going all the way to the line. Horses will be running on empty if they try to go with him from the start. Normally jockeys let a horse who is going too fast too early get a big lead knowing they will come back, but they won't.

He is something very special and I think (and hope) we will see one of the all time most memorable 2 mile case performances.

buddeliea
buddeliea 22 Jan 15 21:33 Joined: 19 Mar 04 | Topic/replies: 11,141 | Blogger: buddeliea's blog
That's just collector,he gets a tad carried away with his dislike for UDS cos he backed Vautour for the Arkle.

Don't have a dislike for UDS mate. Just asking what he has done compared to Vautour? As for backing Vautour for the Arkle, I'd rather put the cash down then come on here day in day out and harp on about a horse that I have not even backed. You're on here every day mate talking about UDS yet when I ask you say you've not even backed him. Why not? If he is so good. When Hurricane Fly won his first Champion Hurdle I backed him to win 2 holidays...Bayern Munich Champions League...Lord Windermere RSA....what is the point exactly about dreaming and talking about a horse everyday in life as a gambler (as you are) and then when he goes up and does the job all you have to say is "**** all" when people ask how much did you have on it and then they say "erm but youve been goin on about him for months ffs"...grow a pair mate.  I read all last years forum and again you're on about him running in the Champion Hurdle day in day out. Are you upset cos you done your dough on him last season? You seem to, yet again, forget I have Vautour for the JLT also (9/2). Would also add that I would like to actually see UDS in a Grade One before we start talking about him being odds on in every race for the rest of his days. Hurricane Fly has won 21 Grade 1s and wasn't odds on in them all so that is rather a silly thing to say....

bud don't reply to him, just ignore it.

Right now, Un De Sceaux surely has a profile that is begging people to take him on especially at 2/1. There has to be far better options for the €20 punter.

We'll know more after Sunday or at least I think I will. My opinion on him right now would be he makes the odds for others in the race and if he turns out to be the machine some are saying, then fair enough, I'll take that one on the chin.

I'm not sure is it ever a good strategy to go backing sub 2/1 on novice races at Cheltenham. At least I try to avoid them.

For the sake of the Cheltenham Arkle, I hope UDS doesn't run away with the Irish Arkle.

If he does Gilgamboa will probably go JLT, and he would have already beat Clarcam when giving 10lbs.  That only really leaves Josses Hill in opposition, with possibly Vibrato Valtat.

Ideally, I'd like Gilgamboa and Clarcam to give UDS a good race, otherwise as good a race as the Irish Arkle is, it could wreck the Cheltenham one!

I hope Apache puts in a solid round of jumping in prep for the JLT.

Not touching anything in any race that's 4/1 or shorter. Not enough upside, lots of downside.

So forget making meaningful money on UDS. Enjoy him. He's the highlight of Tuesday for me. Can't wait to see him.

Intriguing arkle trial on sunday,this horse could have been called Marmite.
Never jumped a fence left handed in public.
Never raced on good ground,which it will not be sunday.
Will he settle if taken on?
How fit will they all be with 6 weeks to d-day.
The only part of another horse he has seen, was from below.
Despite the hype he still has a few questions to answer.

Well..dare I say it, I'm looking forward to seeing Gilgamboa!

Right now, Un De Sceaux surely has a profile that is begging people to take him on especially at 2/1. There has to be far better options for the €20 punter.

Spot on SYT,and main reason I aint backed him antepost. When he were half decent price i weren't sure he would run,missed the boat as they say.

Im looking forward to seeing Gilgamboa as well Duffy,as a £20 punter hes one I have backed antepost,along with JHill and Sgt Reckless.

Yeh CV,every now and then a horse comes along that simply excites,and UDS being a front running catch me if you can is about as exciting as you can get imo.
Just cant wait to see him in a top race.......its not all about punting for me,this is my hobby as well.
I aint saying I would not want one of mine to win,course I do,but I really want to see UDS run and if that stops me winning with one of mine,so be it.
Anyway hes in some covering accas, so all would not be lost.

I will add that I have not had a penny on UDS after last years Champion Hurdle "fiasco".  Didn't want to burn my fingers again, but can't wait to see him on Sunday and at Cheltenham. Yes missed the boat but still the spectacle is worth it.

First Grade 1 in the bag, More to follow.

Very impressive.

Yep.
Sprinter and Sire looking over their shoulders!!

Think they will have to be looking in front of them Budd

WOW - at last something to come along to pep up the 2N Chase division, would even be good enough to take them on in the Champion this year.

As he been mentioned he faces two problems. oufies pal has mentioned that the last horse to make all in the Arkle was Anaglogs Daughter in 1980. I'll admit that Champagne Fever came damned close to breaking that stat last year. I remember this issue being said about Fair Along in 2007. The answer was that he didn't have to front run and he didn't in the end. He also didn't win the Arkle in a year that worked out atrociously (e.g. Twist Magic and Don't Push It in strong contention when both falling two out).
The other issue as Tory has mentioned is that he's fallen. Tory has said the last winner to do that was Moscow Flyer in 2002. In fact, you have to go back to Klairon Davis to find the one before that.

Also no course form,but think only dangers will be in front of him.

DHB - Really clutching at straws to try knock him by dragging up inferior horses who happened to front run and fail. Talent matters many more times than running style.

To be touching odds on now would be unwise due imo to 3 things.

1) He might have a setback and miss the race, you lose your bet.
2) He's never raced at the track and the 3rd last fence down hill catches many horses out.
3) While his action and how nimble he is on his feet would point to him being better on better ground, you have to factor in that he'll be going slightly quicker and as such needs to jump quicker
4) The atmosphere may possibly get to him

I know this is nit picking, but when a horse is odds on in a Novice Chase you have to factor a little bit on each of the possible questions you have left. As a rule of thumb, just totally avoid very short horses at Cheltenham.

But for me, not only does he look one of the most amazing 2 mile chasers we've seen, he also has essentially no legitimate rivals. He just needs to jump round.

Clearly that's 4 things

That's 4 CV !!!!

all four valid reasons , just an aside the two best Arkle winners of the last few years Sprinter Sacre and Simonsig went off SP of 8/15 and 8/11 so whether UDS will shorten up alot more between now and cheltenham must b fairly unlikely. PP must be preparing the Cheltenham special around him or Douvan

Hope so,if hes evens or better............nah he wont be.

I don't think he will be Paddys special. He has already easily beaten his closest rivals. I'm thinking 4/7 at the very best.

Paddy Will do UDS, Faugheen or Douvan. Most likely UDS to generate some betting interest in the race as I imagine most punters who haven't bet will stay away or bet small.

Someone will take him on on the Tuesday morning with a silly offer for small stakes.  They'll be hoping he tips up and it will generate publicity.  CVB bang right not to back him now. If you're not on like me, we've missed the boat.

An important skill in this game is knowing when you missed the boat and price is gone. I mean Douvan, UDS, Faugheen all unbackable prices now.

Vautour at 3/1 is maybe a shade of Value imo, I think he's a 2/1 shot probably. Valseur Lido was inferor over hurdles, he was also ridden to win the Drinmore and beat Real Steel by 12l when that horse jumped so badly left for so much of the race. Vautour was going to beat that horse by 8 or 10l on the Bridle over same trip going left handed. I'd have Vautour a decent bit clear of Valseur Lido tbh.

See UDS is back in the market for the Champion Chase on here,taken out when he weren't entered,now put back in.
Supplementary option week before the race....would they take that option if SS and SDG are non runners or have doubts re their ability to produce their best??
Hes also available with a run on oddschecker.

Interesting!!!

not a chance in hell he runs in the queen mother.

the arkle has the potential to massively cut up - it's going to suit UDS even more letting him do his thing out in front.

champion chase they've got champagne fever, who they'll want to lead or be very prominent with. special tiara, al ferof, unxizandre, hidden cyclone. all will want the lead/be prominent.

he can have a clear trouble free round in the arkle

Any person who wants can have a horse added to the market. It's about as interesting as paint drying. Mullins and Ruby have already said Arkle. He is going to the Arkle.

I've got UDS 6/1 NRNB for QMCC but think I'm only going to get my money back.  I thought they might send him there and Vautour to the Arkle but the way Mullins enters all his horses for every race tells you how unlikely it is that he will supplement.  You'd have thought though that they'd enter him in the QMCC instead of the JLT.  Makes no sense to me.

He will have a clear trouble free round whatever race hes in.

When I asked for a horse the other day they said no, as he weren't entered.

So I understand him being taken out when he weren't entered,but bringing him back??

And why is he priced up with a run??

Clearly some are of the opinion he could run.

Anyone would think a horse has never been supplemented before.

I think the horse would have every chance in the QM,so do those that have priced him up at 3/1 with a run.
Maybe those closer to him may think that as well.

As for Mullins and Walsh,yes they have said the Arkle,but they can easily change,and really all they have to say is that the QM is there for the taking......I would understand that.
It would be with doubts over the top two chasers of the past couple of years.

the queen mother is a far more difficult race to win

he will have completely his own way in the arkle

do you really think mullins, the guy who kept quevega to the easiest race every single year is going to put a novice chaser in the queen mum?

absolutely no chance whatsoever

So what horse is going to be in front of him? or even alongside him??
Don't think theres a horse in training that could do that without harming its own chance.

Fair point about Quevega but this is a totally different horse.
As for the novice chaser bit,what does that matter if you are lengths ahead?? he will still jump the same fences.
And hes a darn good jumper anyway.

No chance,yet hes available with a run.

Clearly their is a chance,maybe a slim one.......but he is 90 on here.

theres a big difference between dispatching inferior novices and then stepping up to the QM.

yes others may comprimise their chances but the jockey on the aforementioned leaders/prominent racers will all know they need to hassle him to beat him and it could be a nightmare race for UDS.

UDS is very good yes but lets take it one step at a time...he's had 3 chase starts, fallen in one. it would be mad to send him for the harder race when the easier one is there for the taking.

the bookies could price up my c*ck and balls winning the gold cup but they aint gonna run

Budd, there were doubts about SS & SDG when the entries were made.  They entered him for the JLT!!!!! WHY?

It's just not logical to supplement now IMO.

Don't agree at all.
Think the harder race will be the one that UDS is in.
In other words I think without SS and SDG hes the best 2m chaser around.Its possible he may be the best with those if they aint as good as they were,and it does look like SS aint.

Really don't care how many races hes had to be honest.
Ive already seen enough to convince me.

No idea re the JLT shock,strange one, but the trainer does that.

Supplementing Makes perfect sense to me mate, I think he would win it.

take UDS out of both races. would you rather face that arkle field or the champion chase field? no brainer, and then take into account their preferred running styles

let UDS walk the walk in the arkle before dreaming of QMS. he if destroys the arkle field, they can wait for punchestown to take on the best. doesnt all have to be about chelt.

The year Sprinter Sacre won the Arkle do you not feel he was good enough then to beat Finians Rainbow in the Queen Mother.


I do.

Budd, I think UDS could win the QMCC and have a 6/1 bet, but IMO don't think they'll supplement.

the point is not what the horse could win, but what is right for the horse. its a massivre question to ask such an inexperienced chaser no matter how good they look

This is a horse that will be out in front,no doubt about it. So your 1st point to me is not relevant...it would be if he were in amongst horses,he clearly wont be.
It makes no difference to him what calibre of horse is in behind. Yes they would have more chance of catching him in a QM, but if they think hes better than the opposition than they wont be worried about that. If they don't he would not run anyway.


Look im just summising about a horse that is available at 90.
And giving my opinion on why it COULD happen,I really don't think it WILL happen though.

But I will say, if he were mine I would be keeping a close eye on the runners in the QM.

They won't supplement him I'm sure.

Personnally I have no trouble with a novice going for a championship race. He has proved he can jump well, he has an engine and front runs.

I'd back him if was entered, no doubting.

let UDS do the talking in the arkle.

he looks very good but the way you go on he's the best horse that's ever lived! of course it matters who's in behind. the likes of hidden cyclone, speical tiara etc would go like the clappers to inconvenience him. you think they'll all let him just bowl along in the QM?

the arkle is different, full of novices who arent going to pressure him from the off

Each to their own mate.

I don't know why you think the opposition will be happy to let go on uncontested in The Arkle but won't in another race.

Western Warhorse posted a time 1 second faster than Sire De Grugy last year.

the difference in the arkle is that the jockeys will take into account their horses are novices and wont force them

like the arkle when sprinter won it, al ferof blundered his chance away but menorah and cue card were not pestered to go chasing sprinter sacre when he went off on his own.

who can compete for the lead with him in the arkle? his main market danger cant even jump!

They simply will not contest the lead in the QM,they know it would damage their own chance.
They would lay off him hoping to catch him at the business end.
He don't need to win an Arkle to convince me,hes already showed me,ive seen it with my own eyes.

Hes convinced me he as at least the 3rd best 2m chaser around,at least.

Still,if nothing else at least its livened up the forum tonight!!

22 new posts discussing UDS in the Champion Chase!!!!

I will give you £100 cash budd if UDS runs in the Champion Chase. No catches. Just please give up on the UDS for Champ Chase disucssion from this thread.

Tell you what mate
I will not post any more unless others do,thats the best I can do.

So a fiver at 90 plus the bet I had start of the season at 50,and 100 quid from my ol mate.

COME ON WILLIE...........ya know it makes sense!!!!!!!!

cv stop being an old miser...you spent an age discussing bloody statistics on the other thread. now THAT is boring!

Wicketd

If SDG and SS are missing/not the best I would be pretty sure that WM would fancy his chances wth Champagne Fever anyway so I cant see UDS in Ch chase.

True,but then he may know UDS is a better 2m chaser,i think he is and I would say so do most people.

I think he is the best but only if the QMCC field came completely apart would WPM consider the race (based on his handling of this horse and novices in the past) - as another poster stated, UDS can always run against open company at Aintree/Punchestown and let's not forget the hugely lucrative Auteuil races in April through June which are more likely to have softish ground

That was absolutely brilliant.
No worries re ground or jumping round Cheltenham, pretty much bombproof.

Wonder if they will step him up to the big boys at Punchestown??

Just hope this horse stays sound, we are gonna have some fun watching the new superstar of 2m chasing..

Well done Budd...you've liked him for ages and yer man has delivered.

I didn't think he was as good as they all thought but that was sheer class yesterday. A top horse.

Thanks mate.

We saw 3 proper serious class racehorses yesterday,the future looks exciting for us.

Flawless performance, and a joy to watch. I thought Ruby deserved an awful lot of credit for the way he got the horse settled and he gave the perfect ride. Ruby was brilliant yesterday and it was as  good a days racing as I can remember at the Festival. Lots of horses to look forward to!