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Superb write up Cyclops of my favourite all time great.
Also had some wonderfull flat performances 2 Chester Cups Ebor hcap under 10-0 but his best ever performance on the flat imo was in the 1978ish Tennet trophy @ Ayr when he gave Le Moss subsequent dual Ascot Gold Cup winner around 27lbs and just got beat about a neck |
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Thanks Geoff. Yes, that was extraordinary. From memory, it was the Doonside Cup, but I'll defer to you if you're sure. I know he won the Tennent at some point. Had there been more races for him over his optimum 1m5f/1m6f his amazing flat record may well have been even better. They spent quite a long time trying to make him into a Cup horse though he never quite got home over those trips (the unique Chester notwithstanding).
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Cyclops thats funny as I always used to think it was the Doonside Cup until a fellow Pigeon fan put me right.
Altho im sure he did win the Doonside Cup & Tennet Trophy along with 2 Scottish Champion Hurdles @ the track plus 3 Vaux Gold Tankards @ Redcar to go with his dual champion hurdles & chester cups. What a horse made the hair stand on the back of the neck. Probably (pro rata) had my biggest ever bet on him in the 81 champion £18 backed from Nov onwards from about 7/2 downwards. Have a wonderfull DVD compilation that I put together of him somewhere tucked away. Francome was interviewed regarding Peter Easterbys instructions pre race he said Peter told him dont win to far! |
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Yes, shame there's not more footage of him available. Some of those races would be great to see again.
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Great memories lads, was in the Lygon Arms one night when the great horse won the Champion all the connections were there, a great time, met Peter and Mick a few weeks ago by chance and had a quick chat about that night and the PIGEON, 30 odd years ago but seems like yesterday.
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For me, he remains the best 2 mile hurdler we've seen. No horse will probably ever be asked to even attempt the feats that he achieved but, as with Arkle, those races are the ones which emphasise his greatness. As a come from behind horse, it was often impossible to know how far he was superior to his opponents yet, handicapped with immense burdens and shrugging them off with impunity, his greatness was truly defined.
Indeed a very warm tribute to a great horse. However the rewriting of history and the comparisons with Arkle pay scant respect to that horse's superiority other ALL others and ignores the fact that Sea Pigeon had to wait until the Golden Age of Hurdling was in its twilight years before he could win the top hurdles crown. NIGHT NURSE MONKSFIELD PERSAIN WAR COMMEDY OF ERRORS LANZAROTE BULA were all Champions rated higher by Timeform than Sea Pigeon and had retired from hurdling (excluding Monkfield, he himself having to wait his turn) before Sea Pigeon had his time in the limelight. Even then, his task was made easier by the tragic death of Golden Cygnet who, as a novice, was about to give Sea Pigeon the first of many beatings when falling in the Scottish Champion Hurdle. The best hurdler we have seen? No, not for me. |
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dont think he was the best hurdler of all time but is my favourite racehorse of all time always gave you a run for your money used to love them battles with birds nest an co
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Brings back lots of memories and you are 100% correct loper. I was at Ayr when Golden Cygnet, fresh from his Supreme victory, was cantering all over an established field, when he fell fatally at the last. We will never know the heights GC might have scaled but let's just remember the great Sea Pigeon
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He would have won 3 champion hurdles if jonjo hadn't fecked up in 79,he panicked after Kybo fell and got there far too soon but hey ho,my favourite ever horse along with Nijinsky.
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Yep Willie established field certainly was as Pigeon was also accompanied by stablemate dual champion Night Nurse you dont get hcap hurdles like that any more.Winners of 4 champion hurdles in a hcap.
Anyone recall the winners of 6 champion hurdles in a hcap?? |
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i've said this on another (unread ! ) thread . how i wish there was a 'proper' northern challenge nowadays at cheltenham. it goes without saying that chatting to peter easterby and then young tim in the bar years later peter remembers that francome ride as a real frightening moment . then you think of all the dickinson horses ....
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great write up can remember his races well :-) great horse
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loper, I made no comparison with Arkle, simply pointing out the way in which handicaps can sometimes showcase talent more accurately than conditions races.
I meant this thread to be an appreciation, not to start a "who was the best?" thread. There could easily be plausible cases made for half a dozen hurdlers since Persian War. However, I would take issue with Timeform's extraordinary ratings for top hurdlers. Indeed, I now boycott the main entrance at Cheltenham since they stuck those ratings in full view! No idea how they would argue their case, but maybe of more relevance is that both Fred Winter and Fulke Walwyn were independently asked who the best hurdler they had seen was and both answered "Sea Pigeon." Winter, of course, trained Lanzarote and Bula. (Sea Pigeon's biography by Bill Curling). I would also argue that Sea Pigeon was not being cantered all over by Golden Cygnet at Ayr; he was in his slipstream, about to make his move. In the event, he was hampered by Golden Cygnet's fall, had six lengths to make up on Night Nurse and did so, despite conceding seven pounds. Peter Easterby said he thought he'd have won anyway. The race is on You Tube (enter Golden Cygnet). And, finally, I stressed "the best two mile hurdler". Once the course was shortened, he won two Champions with dismissive ease and I'm sure he'd have outspeeded Monksfield not only once, but twice, had the alterations been made earlier. Geoff m, The Royal Doulton hurdle (now Swinton). Monksfield, Night Nurse, Sea Pigeon. |
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Thought I'd bring this up again, as Cheltenham approaches, for those that like a wallow in history to stir the blood.
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Been re reading The Ditch At The Top Of The Hill this week. I love NH
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Great write up Cyclops..im sure that sea Pigeon was withdrawn on the eve of the 75 Champion as a 5yo on account of the soft ground.. the year Comdey of Errors regained his crown
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Indeed he was. Just a novice that season.
The following one he was also withdrawn when a fancied third favourite at around 8/1 (from memory). On that occasion, he was bitten by an insect two days before the race, which was won by Night Nurse from Bird's Nest, on the quick ground that Sea Pigeon loved at that stage of his career. |
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In their book A Century of Champions, John Randall and Tony Morris ranked Sea Pigeon the tenth best British or Irish hurdler of the 20th century.
Great memories. |
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He gave Le Moss 27 pounds and just got beat ????????
how come he was rated so much higher than this multi Gold Cup winner ....and three times victor over the awesome Ardross . I take it Le Moss was a work in progress. |
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Le Moss had won the Queens Vase @ Ascot as a 3yr old on his previous outing and received lumps of weight due to the wfa scale which favour 3 yr olds over longer trips in mid summer.
I think the trip was 1m 7f lucky for Le Moss it wasnt a furlong shorter as Pigeon was lethal over 1m6 on the flat. |
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loper, I don't think Tony Morris has ever seen a jump race and Randall is a strange bookworm. The opinions of Walwyn and Winter hold just a little more weight in my view.
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I'd take the opinions of an independent assessor any day before a jockey/trainer which opinions are almost always subjective.
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Depends who the assessor is.
But when those trainers are assessing a horse to whom one of them could have put up a rival (Bula) then I see no reason why that view does not merit respect, particularly when Walwyn and Winter were the outstanding trainers of their era. |
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of course they commend respect but that's why there's an referee in football with an objective view, the players/trainers won't ever be able to judge things on their merit because they'll mix their subjectiveness with reasoning.
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All views as to the merits of racehorses are subjective. Whose views you give weight to are as well. My point is that Walwyn/Winter were far better placed to assess these merits than the two characters cited.
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Yes but their views in the book were based on Timeform ratings which trainers/owners use themselves as an reliable independent source. Also when Morris and Randall wrote the book Istabraq had yet to perform at the highest level, otherwise he would've been on 2nd place along Persian War and Monksfield.
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Timeform is a long way from infallible and I'd refer to the main thrust of my argument, i.e. that Sea Pigeon showed himself comfortably superior to Monksfield when the Champion Hurdle distance was reduced to two miles and probably to all others. It was his misfortune that an extra furlong and a steep uphill climb was thought necessary for so many years. What he did, on many occasions, has never been matched in my opinion.
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