Al Ferof ?

Personally I think its clear that he wouldnt have beaten Cue Card, even at the top of his game, never mind SS.

i think its fair to say that mistake or not AF  was no where near his best on the day, clearly the best horse won! but im not havin that he wouldnt have beaten cue card if not on the top of his game

Three festivals in a row.......2>1 to cue card,are these two destined to meet every March?

Ryanair 2013 maybe,lets hope they both stay sound.

i doubt the nicholls yard will be coughing 3 weeks before next years festival

nothings clear as to where he would have finished as he made a race ending mistake.
He was always going to be travelling not as well as SS,we all knew that.What we dont know is the crucial bit,where he would have been at the end of the race.

Yep Ryanair is to me the most likely as i really aint sure about the Gold Cup trip,but until he gets beat running his race i personally would like to see him over 2m against the best at Cheltenham.

Suspect if he is well, he might run in the race at Aintree where Wishfull Thinking beat Medermit last season.

Step up in trip seems inevitable. No point in taking on SS over 2 miles and Ruby has already said what a great ride he'll be in the 2012 King George.

i doubt he is well and doubt he,ll be out again this season, he was absolutely cruising in front, but jumped so far away from the fence he basically landed on top of it, id bet he is as sore as hell and will need time to get over it.

i too feel its too early to right him off as a top notch 2 miler

yeh,i would be surprised if he werent a bit sore after that!! Lets hope he recovers well if thats so.

agree,its too early Alleged as re 2 miles,and such a shame we were not given the finish we wanted.
The way he was going at the time,i suspect it would have been a lot better finish than the one we got.

Al Ferof is a great jumper but he took off at the same time as Sprinter at the fence he made a mess of and unfortunately he can't quite make those jumps yet. I think he has a real future but I wouldn't be rushing him to be running over 3 miles yet he has plenty of pace. He could develop into a Gold Cup horse but I'm not sure he wants 3m2 yet. If he was mine I'd aim him at 2 and a half mile races or even some over 2 in Ireland. Could see him going well in something like the Ascot chase or even the Paddy Power earlier in the year (160 looks stiff enough though).

Al Ferof probably wants a bit of cut to be at his best like most Dom Alco offspring

I would put him away and look for some nice races around 2 and half miles with a bit of juice in the ground

masterminded ive just had to watch the race again just to make sure in slow motion at the fence in question,and AF is clearly in mid air before SS takes off, he starts his jump at the begining of the wings a clear 2 and a half horse lengths at least before the fence, looking at it again im surprised he made it over the fence

http://youtu.be/lz3ivr1cn8I

2mins 25/6 secs check it out in slow mo

Yes but sprinter was behind him mate they take off near on the same distance away from the fence I sky plussed the race & have watched it.

Genuinely flabbergasted at the pocket talk on here re Al Ferof.

Have any of you who backed the horse even asked yourselves why connections decided to change the tactics on him despite everything they bullishly stated beforehand being the opposite ?

Just gobsmacked here.

sorry dude AF is in the air before SS takes off, its there for all to see, AF  is on his way down as SS is taking off

Yes because sprinters nearly a length down going into the fence! FFS

Al Ferof is a great jumper but he took off at the same time as Sprinter at the fence he made a mess of and unfortunately he can't quite make those jumps yet

with respect - thats rubbish.

Go on then Budd explain why that's rubbish.. I have been right all season and you have been wrong so maybe it is you who is talking the rubbish. Sprinter is a jumping machine. Al Ferof is good in his own right but he can't stand that far off hence why he lands on top of the fence u muppet.

We'll never know what was going through Ruby's head 4 out. BG was just beginning to serve it up on his outer and SS too stood well off the ditch but cleared it easily because he accelerated into the fence. I've watched the re-run of this race several times and whilst SS has plenty of speed, it was jumping that won this race. I've never seen a novice jump the last 4 better.

Sint,

Im not talking about tactics and whether AF would have won the race or anything like it,so cease with the Pocket talking jibes(yet again)!! Its not pocket talking as far as i am concerned,what happened,happened,thats racing.Of course i was disappointed not to see him at the business end as the race would have been a lot more interesting,and a lot of points that were made on here prior to the race hinged on the finish.

Anyway,i had no intention of starting a big debate,we had enough of that in the build up.

The reason i bumped this up was to discuss sensibly where they go with AF now,as my opinion is that the Arkle proved nothing as far as AF is concerned as his race was ruined too early.
So i personally would like him to have another go at 2m in the top company,although i do think it more likely he will be stepped up.Fascinating to see what his optimum distance will be eventually.

they took off at the same place but SS was behind so took off a fraction later....SS could make the jump and AF couldn't.

MM,no horse who took off from where he did would have cleared that fence,to say he cant quiet make those jumps yet is unfair,no horse could.
Stupid thing to say.
And enlighten me into what i got wrong all season- trumpet blower

im gonna watch it again

Bud don't answer my questions with questions. Why is what I have said rubbish? Are you saying Al Ferof can make those jumps because he clearly couldn't at Cheltenham whereas Sprinter clearly can and his jump at the next is even bigger. You can't say I'm talking rubbish it's not really fair. The worse thing is I was actually being complimentary about Al Ferof.

SS took off nearer the fence than AF,no doubt.

Worst* fecking spellcheck today

No,i am saying that i dont think any horse could have got over that fence from where he took off,so to say he cant make those jumps yet implying that others can is rubbish.If you were not implying that i apologise.

And what have i got wrong all season?

Just what this debate didn't need, a mistake at a crucial part of the race! I share Buds sentiment re having both jump round cleanly, not because I think AF would've got SS off the bridle, but because it would put an end to all this.
That notwithstanding, I'm gonna offer up my view 
Whilst it's clearly never ideal to make an error 4 out, I'm not sure that it was quite the 'stopper' that the AF backers are making out. Ruby didn't panic and start heaping on the coal straight away, indeed he seemed able to maintain a position just behind Cue Card for quite a few strides before Ruby started rowing. I'm not saying it didn't affect his chances, clearly it did, as the stayer in the field momentum would be important to him. But at best, I think he would've finished 3rd, the way that the first two finished their races off.
I'd be interested for the major staying races next year, but that is gonna be a tasty division, so could see them keeping him to the intermediate distance, where he could try and level the festival scores with Cue Card in the Ryanair.

DO,i dont think you have to be very biased to realise that was a race ending incident mate.

Yes it is a real shame that nothings been proved as far as what would have happened at the business end is concerned,but jumping is the name of the game and SS and CC did that better and deserved to be 1st and 2nd,of that their is no doubt.
Yep,right now i agree the Ryannair is most likely for AF and CC.
I still think Cheltenham over 2m is within his capabilities though,just hope i get the chance to see it next season.

Bud you clearly need to take those Al Ferof goggles off my friend Sprinter makes jumps like that all day long.. The fact he did on that exact fence says it all. You refuse to see things others have seen all season. Take your eyes out of those empty pockets and pop them back in before it's too late

Just watched it mate,he takes off nearer the fence than AF did,but whats the point?,you are as biased as im being accused of,so unless we can move on and discuss the future then thats it for me.

Yeah, it stopped him winning no doubt as SS flew home from there. But he had got himself upto only a length down on CC jumping the next, albeit under some pressure. He didn't have the speed to go with either Menorah or CC from there, how much of that was down to the mistake we will never know, except to say that he was coming back at them before the third last and then dropped back quickly when those two turned on the taps - only to stay on again up the hill.
It's not conclusive and the mistake clouds the issue, but I suspect he lacks the gears at this distance.

That aside, you must be gutted they swerved the CH with OW, Bud? He would've had to take a hand in the finish and I'd be all over him at Aintree. Travelled like the best horse in the race v BB, but went out like a light.

I meant it stopped him having any chance of winning, btw

You make fair points DO,but like you say its not conclusive,and therefore differing opinions will surface mate.

I was glad they had a go at 3m with OW as they told me they would last Easter,and i had gambled accordingly,so wanted to see the race,and i think his presence gave us all a bit of excitement.

However he clearly did not stay and hindsight says he should have gone CH.Still hes young enough to have a few more cracks at 2m,although it could well be that hes stuck between the 2.
Would have been interesting though if he had run in the CH,clearly has the beating of Overturn.

id say adrenalin got him back up to cue card, have any of you ever played sport???? then when the pain kicked in he was spent, has anyone here ever jumped on a fence at 30 mph and then carried on running and jumping, with 11 stone on your back, its not my pocket talking its a genuine love for the horse, and i know he,s better than that.

have any of you ever played sport???? then when the pain kicked in he was spent, has anyone here ever jumped on a fence at 30 mph and then carried on running and jumping, with 11 stone on your back,



Head in hands man

Thing is Alleged,when we stick up for a horse that weve backed,we are thought by some that we are pocket talking,not much we can do about that,if thats what they think.Even when their is no doubt the fence ended all hope for the horse.

I know hes better than that as well mate,as far as im concerned hes already proved that,and i am sure he will go on to become a top horse at his optimum distance.

its not me pocket talking as im still spending his supreme winnings

the fence knocked the stuffing out of him.simples...
i,m sure he will be a force in top races

Budde, you are pocket talking because you are blatantly ignoring the evidence.

You say we were robbed of a finish, and we dont know how AF would have finished, but the tactics employed DO give us an idea as to what might have happened. This is what is being overlooked.

Why did experienced pro's like Ruby Walsh & PFN decide to change their tactics ? It has every bearing on the outcome of the race.

Why do you think they did it ?

Btw, the same argument was made for Peddlers Cross after Kempton. Next run he avoids SS and is stepped up in trip.

With the tactics they employed on AF in the Arkle he would have finished no better than third.

Excuse after excuse after excuse. You are pocket talking & you got it all wrong Sprinter makes horses look average and Sprinter forces horses into mistakes. Truth hurts

Not pocket talk,just immense disappointment,and really the problem with accusing me of pocket talking is that i am stating facts,in the race we were robbed of the finish because of a fence,that is true,and it dont matter who backed who.Still if you 2 want to carry on with yer accusations go ahead,if it makes yer feel better,i guess judging by yer laughing face MM,its done the trick for you,well done!!

Sint,
Absolutely no way of knowing where AF would have finished,so pointless saying he would have been 3rd- you dont know,just guessing.
You ask why AF was in front of SS,i dont know,but at a guess i would say cos they were trying to use their obvious stamina and get SS working hard earlier than he would like,but its only a guess and i was surprised to see it myself.
Having said that he was going well at the time of the crucial error and as ive said,we have no way of knowing what would have happened.
Yes you can summise,but alas we will never know.

Anyone actually wondered why a horse would take off early like that?
Jockey perhaps? dont see many loose horses do it.
Just a thought.

I hope i can ask that without being accused!!

Their stride pattern is huge and so whilst he was a long way out, I don't think there would've been room for another stride before the fence, without putting a short un in (you see this all the time when horses slow up and pop). Ruby was just turning the taps on and so the horse was probably responding to this and didn't adjust to meeting the fence on a wrong un and so just took off - Ruby certainly didn't ask for a long un. Sometimes jockeys do it, but often horses will shorten themselves up, to ensure getting to the other side in one piece. It seems that you're not the only one over-rating Al Ferof, Bud, the horse himself thinks he is Pegasus. 

Fair points DO,i was just wondering really,and not having a pop at Ruby.
These things happen,just wish they did'nt!!
I dont think im over rating the horse,i just wanted him to run his race and be no complaints win,lose or draw,and im gutted that did not happen.
Perhaps i should add that their is no intention of taking anything away from the performance of the winner on my part,and to be fair i could not anyway,he was extremely impressive.
Just wanted to discuss AF and his future really.

Ii don't think anyone was doubting Sprinter's jumping before the Arkle, I think everyone excepted that Sprinter was / is / and will be a better jumper of a fence than Al Ferof.

The debate was about whether Sprinter will struggle to get up the hill, and will Al Ferof do a "Supreme Sytle" run up the hill and fly past him on the flat.

We got one of the answers; and yes, Sprinter gets up the hill, but we did not have the chance to get the other question answered.

I have no doubt that Sprinter will be really hard to beat next season, at any track, but I would like Al Ferof to have another crack at him.  I don't want to see another Grade 1 race at the Festival with 5 or 6 runners.

Next seasons Champion Chase could be Sizing, Sprinter and Finians; with the Ryanair having about 25 in it!!  For racing, and for the Festival, I would love to see Al Ferof be given the chance to show what he can really do over 2m. 

Every horse can make a mistake; every one can under perform from time to time so I'm going to give Al Ferof another chance.  Don't get me wrong, I think Sprinter would beat him again, but I'd like to see a proper race develop.

And.....I was made up for Cue Card.  Gets quite a bad press for losing last year's Supreme, but ran a blinder and will be with him in next years Ryaniar.

For racing, and for the Festival, I would love to see Al Ferof be given the chance to show what he can really do over 2m.

Exactly my feelings.
I want to see if AF can give the best 2 milers a proper race at Cheltenham where i belive he is best suited at that distance. I have serious doubts we will though.

Ii don't think anyone was doubting Sprinter's jumping before the Arkle, I think everyone excepted that Sprinter was / is / and will be a better jumper of a fence than Al Ferof.

The debate was about whether Sprinter will struggle to get up the hill, and will Al Ferof do a "Supreme Sytle" run up the hill and fly past him on the flat.

We got one of the answers; and yes, Sprinter gets up the hill, but we did not have the chance to get the other question answered.

I have no doubt that Sprinter will be really hard to beat next season, at any track, but I would like Al Ferof to have another crack at him.  I don't want to see another Grade 1 race at the Festival with 5 or 6 runners.

Next seasons Champion Chase could be Sizing, Sprinter and Finians; with the Ryanair having about 25 in it!!  For racing, and for the Festival, I would love to see Al Ferof be given the chance to show what he can really do over 2m. 

Every horse can make a mistake; every one can under perform from time to time so I'm going to give Al Ferof another chance.  Don't get me wrong, I think Sprinter would beat him again, but I'd like to see a proper race develop.

And.....I was made up for Cue Card.  Gets quite a bad press for losing last year's Supreme, but ran a blinder and will be with him in next years Ryaniar.


well said well chief

yep,a darn good post and pretty accurate imo

no one more disappointed than me had CARPET EW with billys @7/1 anti post amazed when he made the mistake,
even more amazed when he cold'nt get in the THREE

Bit of a quandary here, SS got up the hill alright, but he got up the hill whilst under no pressure, but of course this is because he was superior, but do we want to see him have one day to fight tooth and nail to win a race to show he can battle really hard and can we witness this occurrence without crabbing the fact that he made hard work of it. In any case i think, to further his reputation as a top top class horse  we need to see him win when it goes wrong for him in a race,to react when making a mistake...to simply have an off day and be able to roll his sleeves up....kauto star had days like these and proved what a superstar he was and there will be a race sometime where SS will have that to face himself

i think it would be madness to run him at two miles again, after two conclusive defeats in grade 1 company the horse is very much exposed and has no progress left in him at the minimum trip...he needs to be stepped up to 2.5/3 miles if he is to extract the maximum out of his undoubted stamina,,he just does'nt have that extra gear needed to compete with the likes ss,fr and sizing europe in a battle of raw speed

for me the reason his jumping has been dodgy in his last two races is because he's being asked to travel and jump at a speed which is simply beyond his capability,,,inducing the errors we have seen from the horse,,,,when ss in the arkle and fr in the vc chase hit front and started to go through the gears al ferof was horribly outpaced on both occasions ,,flat out from along way out just to stay within a few lengths of those horses, this will pretty much be the story of his career if he stays over two miles

step him up in trip now and lets see what he can do given a true test of stamina.

eh??

hes a novice thats got any amount of improvement,so not exposed as yet.
He jumped ok at Ascot which was a prep race for the Arkle,and made one mistake at Cheltenham which ended his chances.
Horribly outpaced after making that error is fair enough i would think.
Lets see how he does when alls well and he runs his race.
Thats the time to judge,not on a race he was not 100% or on a race he plainly ruined by taking off too soon.

im more than happy to make a judgement here and now on what i've seen from the horse, he's not good enough over two miles, that we can say for certain

you can say it if yer like,thats your choice.Personally i think its far from certain.
i will make a judgement based on the horse performing at his best without making a race ending error.
Think thats only fair.
Each to their own.

The danger we're running into here is that first it was peddlers who had his race finished after the first fence, now it's AF who makes an error,the danger is that SS twice now doesn't get the full credit he deserves, we can't talk about making mistakes as if it is a sort of side issue to the race itself that can stop a horse showing his true colours at the end of the race, the jumping is the all important part of the game.

In theory every time SS runs a race we may well get horses that make bad errors whilst trying to compete, we could see him waltz away to a string of victory's whilst some are stating that such and such had his race finished prematurely.The strange thing is though ,if it was SS who made the shocking error i don't think that excuses would be made , i think he would be hammered for not being the horse he was cracked up to be in the heat of battle.

And i'm saying all this not as a total fan of the horse, i am still not convinced that if a horse could keep tabs with him during the race he might just crack at the business end if the jock has to really dig deep, it might take him making a bad mistake during the race though to sort of level the playing field a little

Budde, not laughing at all. Im just genuinely amazed people cant see or read between the lines here re this horse being a 2miler. So much evidence that says the opposite, from his novice hurdles days to his jumping, to his trainers change of plans mid-season,change of tactics in the Arkle, all the quotes re King Georges etc. Body language of jockey during the races.

If you think his run at Ascot was genuinely a prep, then I shall just give up.

Not much of a strategy for sticking to 2 miles in the hope that the monster makes a mistake, assuming he is there of course. Given natures way that horses develop, SS is likely to make more physical improvement from 6 to 7, than AF is from 7 to 8. Unless fatty Hales insists that the horse remains at 2 miles, he will (quite correctly) go up in trip. To be fair to Colin Tizzard in respect of Cue Card, he had this sussed immediately after the Arkle.

Just to make my point clear before, I rate Sprinter Sacre much higher than Al Ferof over 2 miles over fences.  I didn't have a penny on Al Ferof in the Arkle or in the Supreme last year.

I think Al Ferof probably will be better over further in time, but I'd still like to see what he can achieve over 2m; as I don't think he is a spent force, and see no reason why he needs to have an extra mile in his races at the moment.

At the time of his defeat by Finians I was one of a very small number of people on here who was critical of the run, whereas everyone was saying it was an excellent prep run for the Arkle.  My opinion has completely changed since Finians won the Champion Chase - for a novice to only be beaten by 3.5 lengths by a Champion Chaser over a track less than ideal is no poor performance.

I think Sprinter would have beaten Somersby and Finians that day, but that does not detract from the fact that it was still an excellent run from Al Ferof in hindsight.

He's always looked like a staying 2 miler rather than a speed 2 miler.  That mistake four out was definitely a race ending moment, but he was still going well at the time of the mistake.  I'd say it was his first bad run as a 2 miler over hurdles or fences, so for one that allegedly needs 3 miles, he's done OK so far.

I just don't want next year's Champion Chase to be a 5 or 6 runner affair.  Apart from Sizing, Sprinter and Finians what else is there out there? The beaten Arkle horses like Cue Card and Menorah won't face Sprinter again, Peddlers won't be there, the Jewson horses look like stayers, there are loads of exposed Champion Chase runners (I'm so Lucky et al) and Big Zeb has ran his last race at the festival.

Surely it will be good for racing if Al Ferof ran in the Champion Chase because there is still that change he can reproduce his Supreme Novices run and fly up the hill and put it up to the big three?  Or shall we just forget about the race now, give the victory to Sprinter and let Sizing and Finians argue over second and third?

* still that chance

Desmond Orchard     20 Mar 12 17:16 
Ruby certainly didn't ask for a long un. Sometimes jockeys do it, but often horses will shorten themselves

I'm not too sure, looking at it , it looks to me as if walsh makes a motion that looks like he's asking the horse up.

yes, it was at that point going into that fence that the pace really quickened, both walsh and geraghty squeezed their horses and asked for a big one, SS took off at pretty much the same distance away but was a fraction behind at the time and because of AF's mistake, it is overlooked somewhat.

Sint
Think we all know that AF will be stepped up in time,and he will probably be better for it,but it remains my opinion that he would have been very competitive in the Arkle had he ran his race,nothing will sway me from that.
That was his chosen target as a novice and judging by his race behind FR thats fair enough i feel.
I really dont think he would have been 100% for that race,they would have left something for the Arkle imo.

Duffy,
No way is what i am saying meant to detract from Sprinter,as ive said before i just wanted to talk about AF and his future.He is a real goodun and a very exciting horse and cannot be crabbed.
All i wanted to see was both horses run their race.Then we could all be satisfied.

Duffy,if thats true about Walsh asking,then hes at fault cos the horse obviously was not capable of making it,and he should know,should'nt he??

I've watched it again on slow mo. There is bound to be some better judges than me on here, but it looks as if AF changes his legs a stride or two before he takes off, his stride pattern is certainly 'off' on the approach, which may be why he met the fence on a wrong un. Perhaps due to the 'squeeze' that Duffy sees? So, perhaps I've been unkind to the horse. Those suggesting that SS took off from the same place certainly are, he was at least a length closer to the fence, although he did put in a huge jump in his own right and of course cleared it with some to spare.

To me the case in closed here and Al Ferof is clearly not a 2 miler at the top level. When Ruby sends him to the front he is aiming to press on and make it a stamina test but Sprinter Sacre covered the move with incredible ease. Al Ferof was then taken out of his comfort zone (yet again over 2) and was forced into a mistake. Again I will say it is a lot easier to get over hurdles when you are flat out than fences.

Does anyone seriously believe on all known evidence without the mistake Al Ferof would of been bang with Sprinter jumping the last?

Thats the whole point Barnesy,whether you believe it or not,we will never know.
Comfort zone?? What evidence do you have that he was out of it,he made the mistake whilst still going well at the time.And no evidence that he was forced to make that mistake.
Its just opinions that we have,and unfortunately none of us can prove them right or wrong for sure.

Barnesy,is the form of Finians the top level over 2m this season? Hes just won the QM,the top 2m race of the season,that evidence dont count mate?? AF about 3 lenghts behind him.

Budde I don't want to get into a protracted argument with you as, to me, it seems you don't want to take on any points that don't fit with your own point of view. I will just give you the evidence I have used to make the conclusions in my last post that you disagree with:

a) to of beaten Sprinter Sacre or indeed got close to him he would of needed to be better than any Arkle winners in my living memory and indeed better than a few of the Queen Mother winners.
b) every time I have seen him race over 2 miles he has been, to my eye, flat out along way from home. Ruby Walsh has seemingly concurred with this when discussing the horse. The Ascot race was over 2m1f on soft ground and seemed to much of a test on the day for eventual Queen Mother winner Finian's Rainbow, yet he was still outpaced at a crucial time.
c) my own experience of national hunt racing tells me that horses are most likely to make a mistake under one of three scenarios - they are tired, have lost concentration or are going quicker than ideally they would want to be going.

As you say we cannot know 'for sure' what would of happened, but given this evidence I am happy to conclude that the right horse won the race.

No, personally I rate the Arkle winner better than this year's Queen Mother. That is open to debate I guess.
What I am fairly sure of, as I eluded to in the last post, is that Finian's was below his best that day as conditions were not ideal.

No worries Barnesy,i really have no problem with differing opinions as long as mine are respected as well.
I do listen and take on board what you and others say,and i dont profess to know it all and accept i may be wrong.But as always its the horses and the races that tell us, not what we say on here,and unfortunately the way the race panned out,as far as I am concerned,nothings conclusive.

Anyway,to be honest i am done with this now.
I neede a rest from it all,see you around October time!!

Be lucky everyone.

/

Fair enough, you clearly have a lot of love for this horse and I hope he can repay your faith again in a big one (over further imo! )

Good luck

I've watched it again on slow mo. There is bound to be some better judges than me on here, but it looks as if AF changes his legs a stride or two before he takes off, his stride pattern is certainly 'off' on the approach, which may be why he met the fence on a wrong un. Perhaps due to the 'squeeze' that Duffy sees? So, perhaps I've been unkind to the horse. Those suggesting that SS took off from the same place certainly are, he was at least a length closer to the fence, although he did put in a huge jump in his own right and of course cleared it with some to spare.

at last someone watching the same as me, i was begining to think there are a few on here with visual problems, because when i had it on pause AF was clearly in the air and SS 4 legs were clearly on the ground, seems we,ll see AF over 2 miles again this year

alleged....people are getting confused with taking off at the same time and taking off at the same place

AF did take off sooner..just, but if you looked at the spot that SS took off from and compared to the spot that AF took off from they would be pretty much at the same place......when they took off is immaterial.

SS was behind going into the fence...they weren't level.

imo its jockey error he should have realised he was on a wrong stride asked the horse to shorten stride and pop the fence, yes he,d have lost a few lengths, but he,d still have an engine under him, instead of trying to long jump the 4th last, possibly injuring the horse and losing a dozen lengths

Am pretty amazed by this ongoing debate - what does it matter where Sprinter and Al Ferof were in relation to the fence when they took off?

Sprinter Sacre is a sensational jumper and a sensational horse. Al Ferof made a bad mistake, which cost him any chance he may have had, because he is not as good a jumper as the winner. Isn't that all there is to it?

Al ferof asked to go quicker than he likes, hence mistake, he's a stayer and will end up in gold cup next year.

NAFC in the Gold Cup,finnish

Would not have framed in the Arkle even without the mistake.

Tomdeane, no I dont believe it is. THEY changed tactics for a reason despite saying the complete opposite before the race. Yes, the mistake was a bad one, but he never had the pace to get the beating of the others in the race anyway, you can see it in his running. Niggle,nudge,shove,push,kick ... yeah he is an arkle winner alright!

No major mistake today but he never looked like winning. Menorah confirmed the Arkle form, he did jump better and was the best backed horse in the race. Can't believe that AF isn't better than that but suspect it wil be next season before we find out.

Time to accept he isn't as good as many of us thought IMO.

Made a bad mistake at Chelt,and would not be the 1st horse to fail at Aintree after the festival.

Still think he will prove to be a good horse,particularly at Cheltenham where i think suits him best.

Lets see next season.

I agree he will end up being good.... But short of top class I think.

Horse looks one to be wary of imo...folded quicker than a cheap millets tent...people must remember how warm he got at cheltenham and this was another very tame performance...i'd say they will give him a breathing op but he now has big questions to answer in regards his attitude...time will tell us more but he cannot be bet with any confidence in the future...his form now with astracad and for non stop also doesn't look top class at all imo and i for one will be against him until he gets back on a progressive run but he copped out at cheltenham and now this against imo just grade 2 horses...

the case will continue but the jury is out and i for one say, take him down your honour

I was had big time on this horse, went to a preview evening prior to Cheltenham where John HAILES (Owner) was really bullish about his chances for the Arkle and Gold cup next year. I had it a treat. Backed him for the Arkle then lumped on yesterday. That 10/1 Supreme win profit has soon turned into a loss.

Send me down your honour for listening to an owner!

Sat on the next table to Hales yesterday. He looked seriously p1ssed off!

Really disappointed with Al Ferof yesterday. He had a pretty easy race at Cheltenham after he made his mistake. I thought he would really improve for the step up in trip but he looked very one paced. Menorah was brilliant yesterday & I wasn't surprised he confirmed the Arkle form but Al Ferof couldn't even beat Crystal Bonus. I'm wondering whether the horse needs to be held up off a strong ace perhaps as the last couple of runs they have been rather aggressive & he has found very little at the end of his races. Even so I'm not sure he will be quite as good as first thought.

yeh,some fair points,and he has disappointed no doubt,but the change of tactics,as you say MM,have not done him much good,and thats one of the reasons imo why he has disappointed.
I never backed him yesterday,was too short and it werent at Cheltenham where he was trained all season for.
I shall reserve judgement till i see him next season,no harm in giving these horses chances,as long as it dont hurt the pocket.

Budde, I admire you resilience. An admirable quality!

It wont be to long before people are talking about this horse as a Paddy Power contender in October!

Umm,admirable as long as it dont turn into stubborn punting just to try and get proved right and make a point!!

I wont be backing him till i see how he is next season,and one thing i never do is write a horse off that performs below par at Aintree after running at the festival.

Hes a young horse that aint done too bad so far in his career.

Maybe he is just a better hurdler than he is a chaser?

To me, it doesn't look like he is having that much fun jumping fences.  His best performance was in the Supreme, in what will probably go down as a vintage Supreme.

I think he'd have a better chance in placing in the World Hurdle than he would the Ryanair or the Gold Cup.

I think he is a fantastic jumper tbh wc. Jumped beautifully at Aintrea and looked a real natural. Don't think that's the issue myself. Wouldn't be surprised if its a wind issue.

Dont forget he werent far behind the Champion Chase winner at Ascot.

It could well be simply a case of being over the top at Aintree.He was still going well in the Arkle when he made that mistake taking off too early.
I see one bad run from him,and how many horses have done that at Aintree over the years after Cheltenham - a lot.

His jumping of fences is fine(long as he takes off at the right place!!)Hes jumped well round Sandown and Cheltenham,so see absolutely no problem there.

Time to judge is next season lads,thats fair on the horse imo.

CCM and Budd, you both make valid points.

The only slight issue I have with his jumping is when he gets put under pressure, otherwise I agree he jumps great.  That may be because the distance is too sharp, it could be a wind issue or I could be talking crap

Its just his style of running over 2m means he is usually flat to the board earlier than others, and when he is like that I think he is more prone to an error or two over fences, whereas when he is flat to the board over hurdles he can clear them easier.

You are right Budd, that the form of the Ascot race looks strong through Finians, so for a novice it was a great performance.  Like you, I haven't written him off, but the jury is still out until I see him contest a finish in a proper Grade 1.

Fair points from you as well mate.

Another thing that has been touched on is the change of tactics in his last 2 races,dont think thats done him any favours.
Im convinced hes best ridden from off the pace using his strong staying ability,as he was in the Supreme.
Hope thats how hes ridden next season.