David Pipe still seems very keen on Gold Glory for Grands Crus...

hope he goes in the Gold, will help make the market for Burton by attracting the ew money

I'd read that to say he'll run in the Gold Cup if one of Kauto or Long Run misses the race. But he's surely got even less chance of winning that he had a week ago with the re-remergence of Burton Port. It's entirely sensible to keep their options open at this stage.

Therealbandit

I hope he goes Gold Cup - leaves the way clear for Invictus in RSA

I agree Strontium. I reckon its 2/5 RSA.

I think its 1/5 RSA

ive had the feeling from the start they ll go for the gold cup and im more sure then ever. Just get the impression they think he can win it and he may well do...for me, the gold cup is odds on.

The run of Burton Point makes the bid more likely - if he should have beaten the favourite then so can we. Favourite should have been defeated for a third time in a row and there is coughing in the second favourite's stable.

If Long Run had run below form, then yes. But he didn't, so Grands Crus would now have 3 top horses to beat, not 2.

Your point about Kauto Star is perfectly valid, and exactly the sort of thing Pipe must have in mind in waiting to make his decision.

We will have to disagree about Long Run. I think everything went pretty well until the straight when you would have wanted to have seen him put daylight between himself and the opposition. That didn't happen and he should have been reeled in. I backed Burton Port in the RSA when he turned in a particularly shoddy round of jumping (admitedly AP ob board didn't help his cause) but he needs to put that behind him and overcome the second run back after an absence stigma. Some people clearly think Grands Crus has a mountain to climb - I do wonder how many of those are on big in the RSA - but the three you have put up are not entirely rock solid themselves. I am on Grands Crus for both races but betting aside it would make the Gold Cup a good deal more interesting if he took that route.

All fair enough DD. I'd say that given Long Run broke the track record on Friday the form is strong, and he could be rated around 180 for that performance through What a Friend, though I appreciate the rating is hardly rock solid. I don't have a penny on Grands Crus for either race. As you may have seen on other threads, I don't likle him for the RSA if he turns up there. If he goes for the Gold Cup he should be no shorter than a 25/1 shot imo, based on his form over fences, his inexperience, the record of novices in that race, my reading of him as a possible non-stayer, and the quality of the opposition. I'd expect Midnight Chase, Synchronised, Weird Al, What a Friend and Tidal Bay to beat him, let alone the "top 3".

I totally agree with strontium 100%. Pipe knows this, and despite all the talk, the RSA is nailed on imo

Long Run ran bang up to form last time and Nicholls reports that all is well with Kauto Star.
If one of them misses the race I'd say Grands Crus is an even money shot to go for Gold. If both miss it he is 100% going for Gold and if neither miss it then it's 100% RSA.

On the basis of the above Pipebet are :

Gold Cup 1/16
RSA 12/1

Let's look at the facts re this horse's entries....Betfair Chase (didn't cut up - pulled out), Argento Chase (didn't cut up - pulled out)
Laid my nads on GC in the Gold Cup. Am I worried? No.

"If one of them misses the race I'd say Grands Crus is an even money shot to go for Gold. If both miss it he is 100% going for Gold and if neither miss it then it's 100% RSA." - I wish I'd put it like that. And it makes Pipe's "wait and see" position absolutely right at this stage.

To be honest i have my doubts about him getting home in the RSA,and a lot more about him getting home in the Gold Cup.I do need to have another bet in the RSA so personally it would suit me if thats where he ended up,but whether he will or not reading that,i aint sure.
Gut feeling is if LR and KS stay in the Gold Cup,he will be in RSA,but if one or both dont,then he will be in GC.

My interpretation is the owners appear split and favour slightly different options so it is being left to the trainer. I have watched the Long run performance and feel he ran perfectly adequately, it seems to have been lost that he was giving Burton Port 10 pounds. The pipe quotes on the matter seem to vary day to day, my personal feeling is that they will feel that the RSA is the way to go, given that they have already run up to the level required to win.

That is not the case with the gold cup just yet where they might need more improvement.

I have no monetary interest in Grand Crus for either race although I am very much looking forward to his run.

Does anyone know the stats for Pipe runners in the RSA down through the years ? I can't think of many offhand. I always get the feeling that this chase is really hard on novice chasers and there have been a lot of horses had injuries or rarely ran to form thereafter, having taken part.
Also some Trainers are reluctent to have this race as their prime target but won't admit it in public.
Its all about the here and now, Gold cup for me.

Cant remember him having many runners in recent years.
You may have a point that they dont like the race,if they have a potential star they may well not want to run him in the race.
But then would the Gold Cup be any better for him at this stage of his career??

Yes Our Vic I was on at 16s for RSA ffs going like a 1-10 shot from what i recall :(

Just remembered, Minnehoma won it for the Father in 92' but the horse didn't win again till 94' I think he missed the 93' gold cup through injury. Of course that proves nothing, the old boy went on to win the Grand National. I just get the feeling David Pipe is not a great lover of this particular race.

budd and say hello the pipes don't like the rsa and never have...comply and die finished second to trabolgan a few years ago but thats all i can remember...

For what it is worth I feel they should go the gold cup route I have no vested interest but feel the race needs some spice with kauto 12 and long run not that convincing to my eye and some exposed handicappers in behind them in the market...I don't agree that he will only run if one of the top 2 drop out...I think they are giving the race serious consideration because they, like me, feel the opposition are mediocre and he will have a valid chance...personally I feel he is a very good horse who will lob round on the bridle and then it is just going to be whether he gets home...I definitely feel he has a realistic chance of getting in the money and you never know from 3 out...I have to say I will back him ew if he takes up the engagement as personally think he is a classy individual, his demolition of champion court (who was fit) earlier in the season reads well to me...obviously whether he stays or not needs to be taken on trust but I feel I will get out in the run anyway as he travels so well..think he will stay myself.

In conclusion this battle hardened horse should take up the battle and give us a race to savour...the site of him lobbing on the snaffle at the top of the hill will excite us all...as will seeing what he finds off it.

Our Vic was favourite when Rule Supreme won at 28/1...

Given his style of racing pace is also going to be an important consideration. You are pretty sure Midnight Chase will go a resonable clip in the Gold Cup, not so sure with Last Instalment out of the way what is going to happen in the RSA.

Harry, where can you get access to pipes "media day". Iknow he is in the post tomorrow, wanted to have a look tonight if possible.

Seems to take a while to warm up over fences. Gets behind, ragged jumping. Whichever race if they go of fast he could just fall to pieces.

micky not sure pal that write up was off the sporting life website

its quite obvious to me that there gonna run him in the Gold Cup,if they had no intention of running him in the GC then he wouldnt still be entered for it,This "Were just keeping our options open" is a load of tosh,
id have it odds on he'll turn up in the GC,just my opinion of course

Pipe to leave Gold Cup decision on Grands Crus until a week before Cheltenham showpiece
By Marcus Townend

Trainer David Pipe has said the fatal fall of hugely talented novice chaser Gloria Victis in the 2000 Cheltenham Gold Cup will have no bearing on the decision whether to run fellow novice Grands Crus in the big race on March 16.

French import Gloria Victis, who was trained by Pipe’s champion trainer father Martin, broke a leg when falling two out in the race won by Looks Like Trouble.

The gelding had earned his place in the Gold Cup line-up with an impressive success in the Racing Post Chase and, having raced over fences in his homeland, the Gold Cup was his seventh race over fences.

He will line up at the Festival with only three runs under his belt, something for Pipe to ponder as he decides whether to take on Kauto Star and Long Run in the Gold Cup for which he is 8-1 third favourite, or stick to novice company and try to justify 7-4 favouritism in the RSA Chase.

Pipe said: ‘I remember Gloria Victis and it was a sad day as he was a very talented horse but you have to treat every horse as an individual and make a decision on that.

‘There are pros and cons (to running). Is Grands Crus going to be fit and well next year? Is he going to be sound? We have to decide if he’s ready for it and look at the opposition. Those are two things.

‘Can he travel at the pace of the Gold Cup? I would say yes. Can he jump at the pace of the Gold Cup? I’d say that’s the only issue. He has jumped well and was impressive at Kempton. That’s what we’re looking into.’

‘We have to see what’s in the races and look at ground conditions.

‘I’m just keeping an open mind and we’ll all sit down and have a chat. I’m sure a decision won’t be made until seven to 10 days before the race.

‘It’s not that we’re not telling people - we’re keeping our options open – and if anyone wants to back him, they should back him ‘with a run’ for either race.’

Keeping an open mind: Pipe talks to the media at Pond House Stables
Pipe is hoping Dynaste can succeed where Grands Crus failed and pull off the seemingly impossible by preventing Big Buck’s from winning a fourth World Hurdle, even though he has twice been brushed aside by the dominant rival this season.

Pipe’s other Festival runners include 2010 Byrne Group Plate and 2011 Paddy Power Gold Cup hero Great Endeavour (Byrne Group Plate or Ryanair Chase).

Junior, winner of last year’s Kim Muir Chase and favourite for the Grand National could go for either the Gold Cup or the  JLT Speciality Handicap Chase, also a target for long-term absentee The Package.

Buena Vista is being prepared to try to win a third Pertemps Hurdle Final while Kazlian will be the yard’s only juvenile runner, either in the Triumph Hurdle, Fred Winter Juvenile Handicap Hurdle or Martin Pipe conditional jockeys’ Hurdle.
Cheltenham are preparing to start watering next Wednesday with ground conditions currently quicker than ideal ahead of the showpiece meeting which starts on March 13.

Clerk of the course Simon Claisse said: ‘Warmer weather is on the way and I think it will be 15 or 16C by the end of the week. We are currently good, good to firm in places and without between six and seven millimetres of water, we would be good to firm by Monday.

‘We have had a very dry February and we are trying to maintain the ground at good.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-2104442/Pipe-leave-Gold-Cup-...

Judging by the strength of some of the opinions on here, Betfair have missed a trick in not opening a "Which race will Grands Crus run in?" market.

My personal view is that he will almost certainly run in the RSA unless one of the principals in the Gold Cup don't get there, and that's the only reason Pipe is reluctant to commit at this stage.

Spot on fella. If you've any capacity on the lay side in the Gold Cup I'd get Grands Crus in your lay book.

Whilst the ground will obviously be safe, it has always been said that Grand Crus is better with cut. Each race is on the second day of the respective course and so very possible the going will be quicker than ideal. To my mind that may make him vulnerable in either race.

Though my pocket says goes for the GC, his best chance clearly is the RSA. The only way I see him running in the GC is if, as others mentioned, something god forbid happens to the front two or if it is soft when their concerns about jumping at GC speed would be somewhat alleviated

Reading this you would think Grands Crus was a poor jumper - he has effectively made one mistake - when he didn't come close to falling - in three runs. Not sure what you expect? He has been far more fluent than the likes of Bobs Worth and First Lieutenant. And Invictus, who I wouldn't rate a certain starter, was all over the place when he ran at Cheltenham. As for the Gold Cup both Long Run and Kauto Star have hardly been perfect themselves in the jumping stakes.

id be surprised if they dont go for the gold cup.

DD not sure if you were commenting about my post but I was only referring to what Pipe himself said in that jumping at GC speed was still up in the air and an unknown.

I'd agree as a novice he jumps very well.

Invictus definitely goes RSA, if all is well, and would suggest that it is a perfectly plausible explanation for his Cheltenham run

Skybet gone 1/2 on the RSA and 6/4 the Gold Cup on their RUK price request list

Invictus is on a £60,000 bonus. Thornton has already stated he can't beat Grands Crus. The betting alone tells you he has a better chance in the Jewson and while he remains in both races nothing is cut and dried. I think he may well be flattered by the Reynoldstown win and even if he can jump straight I have a feeling that a stiff three miles might not be his ideal.

by that argument, Grand Crus much shorter in RSA betting, so should go for that race whereas your previous post you seem to imply that he should go for Gold Cup.

I would also suggest that Ascot is a fairly stiff three miles.Yes the Jewson would seem easier, but take out out Grand Crus, nothing left in RSA to be that scared of imo. In truth I hadn't factored in the £60k bonus

Yes, I think Grands Crus is capable of stepping up to the more difficult option, not so sure that Invictus can do the same. King might be waiting to see which way they go with Grands Crus.

who says Invictus can't beat Grands Crus? Have they raced against each other? Didn't Invictus beat both the same horses that Grands Crus did?

They are just assuming aren't they? confusing

maybe the RSA is safer but this is the horse thought by many to be good enough to beat Big Bucks the best horse in training if he jumps soundly has too much toe for Long Run and would outstay Kauto.

umm,not sure staying is GC's forte myself,think 3m is his absolute max at the top level.

umm,not sure staying is GC's forte myself,think 3m is his absolute max at the top level.

Yes, but he wasn't good enough to beat Big Buck's and that was over hurdles anyway. Pus you're just guessing if you think he'll outstay Kauto.

Exactly. In the world hurdle he was running over the rest after the second last but didn't pull away from them like  a horse relishing even 3 miles at championship pace at Cheltenham. He may stay the gold trip. I have grave reservations myself but that isn't the issue. There is a difference between your stamina just about lasting and that distance playing to your strengths.

i would back him to outstay Kauto who was put to the sword by Denman and Imperial Commander

lockup, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but if you genuinely think GC would out stay Kauto you should perhaps be taking more water with it IMHO!

all about opinions my freind only time will tell.

cool - have a great festival...

you too Cobs if we all had the same views there would be nothing to discuss be lucky.

If they don't let GC go for the GC this time there may never be a better opportunity, if he were mine I know that I would take the chance. RSA seems to break so many horses anyway, so why not go for the big un. Kauto has done great this year but he has always been better over 3 at Kempton or Haydock even in his prime. LR has not shown any improvement this year and still has the same iffy jock on board. Go for it David, what is there to lose?

Going for the Cheltenham Gold Cup on the back of three novice chase runs would simply be insane.  You cannot even compare it to the ill fated Gloria Victis who had had 6 chases including a competitive handicap before he went there.  I'm sure they will come to their senses.

GC is a novice so im trying to work out why it would outstay KS & Long run ...or even have too much toe. Running a novice in a GC would be a mistake and long run in my opinion would outstay a horse that to be honest wont stay the trip. As you say opinions so we will see

This whole RSA breaks so many horses theory seems an interesting one to which the obvious answer is not if they are good enough. It didn't break Denman and it didn't break Long Run. Many horses get injured at the festival every year irrespective of race and others we simply don't know if they were that good in the first place. So who has it broken?

Seriously guys. I'm going to put this in a nutshell and see if it seems at all logical:

The RSA is such a tough race that we are going to go for the easier option. The Gold Cup.

Yeah, I cant believe people use the RSA being a "race that breaks horses" as a reason to go for the Gold Cup, which is an extra 2 furlongs against far better horses.

Going for the Gold Cup with this horse would be foolish. It's 1/5 for the RSA imo

If a horse can't take the heat in an RSA what do they think the Gold Cup will do to them?  The fact only 1 horse has successfully defended the crown since L'Escargot surely tells you how hard a race the Gold Cup is!

if they think Silviniaco Conti would have some sort of chance in the Gold Cup then maybe it would be worth going, or maybe Bobs Worth would have a shout

FFS Grands Crus is going to struggle to win the RSA let alone get near the front of the Gold Cup field

people getting ahead of themselves

Well said Judorick - for feck sake his form at novice level has taken knock after knock.Horse a massive place lay for me if it goes in the Gold cup.

Well said Judorick - for feck sake his form at novice level has taken knock after knock.Horse a massive place lay for me if it goes in the Gold cup.

David Pipe was talking about the race tonight and seemed to be defending a decision not to take on KS I would be amazed if he were to run in the GC, sounded like a definite no tonight....

If that is the case then sense has prevailed and those who have racings and indeed the horses best interests at heart will breathe a sigh of relief.

You mean those who have backed it for the RSA presumably, Eternal Optimist.

Brave man who backed it for the gold cup , it was always going o be a slim chance, and to be fair he hasn't said for definite I guess this is because the owners are trying to push it , it did sound as though Pipe had  won the battle..

sankara

For them also I'm sure. If you are referring to me I see no value in a horse I'm not certain will be suited by either race. Paradoxically had they gone for the Ryanair then I almost certainly would have backed the horse at the right price.

Gold Cup?

RSA?

Ryanair?

Hell throw in the Croiss Country Chase why not?

He was declared for the Argento Chase on Trials Day and then pulled out. Was declared for a novice chase on the original (abandoned) Newbury Saturday. Hasn't been declared for anything else since. Did he need a prep or not and if so, would it be against seasoned Grade 1 /2 chasers or beating up a bunch of novices, over what distance?

What does the owner(s) want from the horse? What do they want from the trainer? (Buy a dog and bark yourselves by the looks of things). What does the trainer want?

Throw in the Pipe's patented 'Trappist Monk meets Yoda at his most obtuse' approach to Public Relations and you've got , a riddle wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

For those of you doubting that the RSA can break horses the following winners of the race have never been the same since the race:

Weapon's Amnesty, Cooldine, Star De Mohaison, Trabolgan, Rule Supreme, One Knight, Hussard Collonges.

Before you start slating posts get your facts right.

To add to my last post, these winners were all in the last 10 years, not to even mention the losers who were not the same.

It's well known the RSA is a hard race but that's irrelevant because we don't know what running in the harder, longer gold cup would have done to those horses.

Trabolgan came out to win the Hennessy the nest season, perhaps the Hennessy broke him?   Cooldine!!  2nd in the Irish Hennessy beaten a neck the following season before running in the Gold Cup.  Never the same after the Gold Cup.  Wonder which race broke him?

PS you can add Bostons Angel to your list!

correct missed him!!

If you look at the last 10 winners of the Gold Cup you do not see such a war of attrition, the form is in the book, I would not run a good horse in the RSA, simple. The stats don't lie.

Nice little pun there.

What about War of Attrition? Denman? Imperial Commander? Kauto took a year to get over imperial's Gold Cup. Long Run doesn't look the same horse (jury out!). Pleanty of horses never run as well again afer their first Gold Cup.

That said, you make a fair point about not running a good horse in the RSA. But that's not a reason to run him in the Gold Cup as an inexperienced novice. Better to wait another year perhaps?

part of the problem is the going, it is too quick for staying chasers since they over drained the track

They claim the drainage just makes the ground the same all the way round - without it there would be fast bits and boggy bits. It isn't the same drainage round the whole track apparently, just where it was needed.

Know what you mean about Imperial and WOA but not Kauto, he has been round the block and run in more GC's than you care to remember. On Denman it was probably the RSA run that quickened his demise!!!

Personally I think you are all (YOU'RE ) missing the point

It's very hard for many many a horse to bounce back from a hard race at the festival.  Whether it be a RSA or GOLD CUP

horses are running at a pace that they don't normally encounter at any other race of the season

I've never bought into a novice running in open company as a problem.  If they are mature enough they will handle it. Every horse develops at different times

For me GRANDS CRUS has proved he can run fast enough at championship pace ( last years stayers) and has proved he can jump at pace.  When he won the race at kempton and injected pace half way, I don't believe they would run any faster in the gold cup. 

It's just a question whether can run that fast, long enough

Lost - re Kauto, I've read quite a persuasive arguement that Imperial's Gold Cup was brutal and took a lot out of all the major players - Imperial himself, Demman and Cooldine, as well as Kauto (who in this scenario took a year to get over it).

Brandy - you make an excellent point that "It's very hard for many many a horse to bounce back from a hard race at the festival." It's likely that any such race will be the most demanding a horse has yet faced and therefore to represent where many horses will peak.

Agree with you strong except KAUTO. he was travelling well (maybe too well) when he smacked one very hard. Was never going after before he took a neck breaking fall. I thought he was a gonna.. I think that's what took the stuffing out of him. But yes we are on the same path as the festival is an ultimate test that many a horse can not bounce back from

Brandy - Kauto's heavy fall is the theory I prefer too - I read the idea above on here but can't remember who posted it. It's plausible though because it was a very hard race. I also thought Kauto was a gonna in that fall - and if it hadn't rained so hard in the hour before the race I still think he would have been.

It was me stront that made that case.  All the horses that went with the pace seemed to be hurt by it.  Carruthers and Calgary Bay as well as Cooldine and Denman.  Both those 2 have done far better this season than last, seemed to take a lot out of all of them.

Ah, thanks thieves. as I say, I think you made a very persuasive case - just with Kauto there is also the crashing fall and the new front running tactics as other possible explanations for the decline/revival. We'll never know for sure.

PN has said from th outset that last season that Kauto had been making a strange noise when he was doing work at home.

Not sure if that would be related to the fall, but sounds like a breathing problem. Can't see how a breathe problem would sort itself out without an operation?

In fairness I wouldn't fancy GC if he turned up in the GC, there is a reason novice races are in the fixture list imo. Also, at Kempton he beat SC who ran like the couch at Ascot, and Bobs Worth who im convinced needs 5 miles up the side on Ben Nevis. Granted the time was good but he was next under presure in that race. I know this could sound stupid, but I'd run him in the Jewson. The RSA breaks animals imo, so I wouldn't been to keen on that. Gold Cup, novices don't win them.

I know the Jewson doesn't hold the presitge etc, but they would get a fair chunk of cash, he has the speed for the trip and it would be the easier race.

He's not entered for the Jewson so it's not an option.

Lostaniron

For those of you doubting that the RSA can break horses the following winners of the race have never been the same since the race:

Weapon's Amnesty, Cooldine, Star De Mohaison, Trabolgan, Rule Supreme, One Knight, Hussard Collonges.

Before you start slating posts get your facts right.

And before you issue such confrontational rebuttals I suggest you make doubly sure that you get your own facts in order. The most promising horses often don't contest the RSA. It is usually the toughest and often battle hardened with your list providing ample evidence of one or both of those being true. Out of your list Weapons Amnesty has been a sad loss which proves my earlier assertion that horses do get injured in any race at the festival. Outside of that the one thing which distinguishes all the others is that despite the fact that in order to prove their toughness and readiness for that race they had plenty of the juice squeezed out of them in terms of improvement for the future.

Even so not one of them failed to subsequently produce a mark which was better than the offical mark given for their RSA run with most of them subsequently winning other races. Given the fact that most run somewhere between the mid 140's and early 150's in the RSA which puts them way off gold standard and the fact that their scope was often limited by them being campaigned quite hard to get the experience in for a rough and tumble race like the RSA it is hardly surprising that not too many gold cup winners emerge from the race.

As I said horses which do have the requisite class will. Denman received a mark far above average despite a relatively easy campaign both as a hurdler and chaser and despite the fact that the RSA course will not have played to his strengths in the same way as the gold cup course the following year. In terms of profile I'd say that Grands Crus is the kind of classy individual I would be wrapping in cotton wool with a view to allowing him to strengthen again over another summer. Like I've said previously the ideal race for him would have been the Ryanair had they really wanted to step out of novice company.

Lostaniron, as you know, Grands Crus is a novice. If you are making the point that the RSA is a harder race for novices than the Gold Cup, you need to compare the record of novices in the RSA to the record of novices in the Gold Cup.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two novices who were "never the same again" after running in the Gold Cup. They were called Ten Plus and Gloria Victis.

I've never bought into a novice running in open company as a problem.  If they are mature enough they will handle it. Every horse develops at different times

For me Brandy nails it with that sentence.

If a horse is mature enough it will probably handle both races ok,and thats the crucial part-maturity.

The reason horses can be affected by the RSA is cos they are novices extending themselves before they are fully developed,and on that basis running in the Gold Cup would be even worse,stands to reason.

Trainers have to know what their horse is capable of and enter them accordingly,and i suspect its this subject that gets owners and trainers on different wavelengths,as we have had in the case of Grand Crus.

The pipes are an experienced outfit and should know what GC is capable of and at what stage of his develoment he is at,and the owner really should let the trainer have the final say-be stupid not to imo,especaiily with a horse that looks as good as this one could be.

Drumadowney undertaker, 4th in the CGC, was thought he was just back to his bad old ways when P/Up on his reappearance but shortly after he collapsed and died on the gallops.  Ten Plus wasn't a novice when he was killed in the race, thought he actually missed the race when antepost favourite as a novice?

eternaloptimist,

We all have our opinions and mine have been voiced on this thread. I feel that the RSA does affect the careers of a lot of horses and I would not let one of mine run in the race.

I am a big believer that if you are good enough you are experienced enough. My thoughts on the GC are that all the major players have question marks over them and GC would have a great chance, they may never get such another chance depending on many factors.

Out of interest, in the ask the experts section of the Paul Jones book they said RSA (12), Gold Cup (3) and Ryanair (1).

Lostaniron

I fully appreciate that everybody has their own opinion and none is more valid than anybody elses. I respect and agree with your view that the RSA is a tough race as indeed are all at the festival. As I implied, if I thought I had an inexperienced potential future gold cup horse I too would be wary of exposing him against other toughened novices for whom the pinnacle or near to may be the RSA. What I was questioning was your apparent assertion as fact, evidenced by a list, that the race had ruined those horses when the evidence seems clear that this wasn't the case. Which suggests to me that whilst there are some issues with the race the perceptions of it are generally the more problematic than the reality as long as you have a horse which is suitably experienced.

You are speaking sense eternal and I think he will run in the RSA. It will be interesting to see how his career unfolds after the race. Your last sentence confirms that if you are going to a race like the RSA lacking experience, which GC is over fences, then this is the type of horse that does not progress over the years. As you said he is a potential GC contender so the RA may be the better choice.

In essence he seems to have the wrong profile for a RSA horse I just feel that the GC this year lacks strength in depth and this fella could capitalise on any errors or underperformance in the big 2. Appreciate though that this route could also harm the long term future of the horse.

You can argue about whether the RSA or the Gold Cup has damaged more horses all you want but the relevant thing is that the RSA is a novices race, run over two furlongs shorter than the Gold Cup, which is the most extreme test of staying chasers in the calendar.

No-one can know what would have happened to all the RSA winners if they had run in that year's Gold Cup. My own feelings are that very few of them would have placed, and that damage done by the nature of an RSA would have been at least as severe running in the Gold Cup.

I can understand running the horse in the Gold Cup if the trainer thinks it can win it, but there is no logic of running a horse in the Gold Cup because the RSA is a damaging race imo.

GC was a novice hurdler last year didnt stop people saying he will beat the best horse in training BB so it can only be the fences then that is the problem as BB is a much better horse than Long Run or Kauto.

This is my point exactly, he may never getter a better chance.

Carvills Hill was my favorite horse of all time. I always felt that the 1989 Gold Cup when he was a novice was his best chance to win the Gold Cup. It was heavy ground and even though he fell early, i always felt he had his optimum conditions that day.It is always remembered for Dessie's and Yahoo but I only remember it as the one that got away for Carvill's.
History shows afterwards that he never won a Gold Cup.
Grand Crus may never get a better chance to win the Gold Cup.

lockup

The reality (rather than what people may or may not have thought beforehand) is that once again Big Bucks just did enough and an all out Grands Cru beat several mid 150 horses by about 3 lengths after travelling like he was going to eat them until he hit the hill.

I'm almost beginning to hope they run the horse because he will make a better price for Long Run and I will be in again.

lockup - Grands Crus wasn't a novice hurdler last year, and that is why he ran in the World Hurdle. If Grands Crus is that good the RSA won't bottom him (though I never like the idea of a novice going into Cheltenham without a run in the calendar year). Denman managed it and was even better the next year, and there seems to be some people around that think Grands Crus is going to be somewhere near that level (I have my doubts).

Any news yet! has martin lol made he's mind up, gold cup or r.s.a