Kauto Star-2012 Ryanair Chase

The conditions of the race would certainly suit him.

Up to them if they want to risk the horse in the race or whatever - most tend to enjoy the experience.

Of course, very little to be gained for a horse of Kauto's standing to be running in the National but the idea seems attractive to me when I consider the alternatives. As I say, they could do worse than mull over it.

Same!

He's a supreme class horse, not some mut that's uncompetitive over Championship distances and so has to be run over the maximum trip!

Not a fan of the national, you might have guessed!

Kauto has never run in a Grade 3 Handicap in his life,
He's never been unplaced in a race when completing,
He's won a grade 1 race every year since he was 3,

Why on earth would they run him in the Grand National, he is a Grade 1 horse no a tactically campaigned dog looking for a big prize.

them, out there who know fcuk all about racing think the National is the best race. We all know it's The gold cup and champion hurdle.

I'll go over and kick Nicholls in the balls so hard he pukes if he even entered him.

Would be an interesting spectacle though CV? Kauto + Denman locking horns over those fences?

Should bring back Hedgehunter and Red Rum and you;ve got yourself a race!

The Hennessy, that's the only real Handicap. Proper horses like Denners can win that off top weight. Twice.

Then Whitbread would be 2nd best.

Kauto Star in the Racing Post Chase [smiley:crazy]

Nah, he'll get weight from Denman fto in the Hennessy

China Rock still wins though.

Kauto star will NOT win a Ryanair,absolute 100% total fact,at its best it was rated 191 by timeform,its latest rating is 168,thats a 23lb deterioration.
This years Ryanair winner was rated 166,im not sure if Albertas run has been given higher rating yet,but knowing that Kauto Stars level has dropped that much,its very difficult seeing him win anything at Cheltenham.
I can see why you thought that,i did actually think the same thing myself,but common sense tells you Nicholls will probably keep his runs next term to a minimum,and have another pop at the gold cup,its not beyond the realms of possibility that a fresh kauto might run into a place again,but thats a best case scenario.
One thing has to be said,and that is Nicholls is a genius at getting these horses ready for the big races.

I don't think that having avoided the handicaps until now they are going to chance him at the longest and probably least suitable of the viable handicaps. I think an Irish campaign based around the 3 mile grade 1 races would be interesting and he would certainly have a decent chance of winning them. If they want to attempt a handicap I think sandown is the best option. Doesn't anyone think an Irish campaign would provide a better opportunity for further grade 1 success albeit in slightly easier races?

We know he'll go down Royal or Hennessy then King George then Gold Cup.

anything can happen in racing, 2 horses could fall at Kempton and Kauto might battle out a win. He'll be aimed at the races that matter as long as he can do himself justice.

Yes he's over 20lbs below his peak but that was a mighty high peak after all.

If anything happened to Long Run God forbid, Kauto and Denman won't have much to find next year, in fact the rest will have to find it on them, I'm young and only following racing 6 years, but before this last Golden period of staying chasers, and I mean that, was a mark in the low 170's often well enough to win a Gold Cup. Okay so he's lost his kick, but whats to say he can't maintain his current level for at least another year, I reckon Denmans run on Friday would've won many a Gold cup and even Kauto's would have given the likes of War of Attrition and Kicking King something to think about. One other point about Long Run, he has had an awful lot of racing fo a 6 year old, and one never knows with French breds. That said I'd already consider him a great horse winning like he did on unsuitable going. I think the Gold Cup will be fough out next year between the Champion, Mikael D'Hageunet, Diamond Harry and Weapons Amnesty. Denman could come into it if something goes wrong with the champ. Afterall he never had a finishing kick to lose. Remember Kicking King and WOA never made it back to defend their crowns.

Give them both the same campaign as this season, it seems to have worked. If at any stage they look like theyre not enjoying it then retire them. 12 months is a long time in racing anything could happen, but these 2 certainly deserve another go at Gold

exactly, if something happened to Long Run, you'd never know what could happen. Incidentally, If Kauto and say Sizing Europe met in a 2mile race at Cheltenham, I'd back Kauto, even now, I'd reckon he could still lie up with him. i reckon Long Run could win a Champion chase as well, he was wrong after the Paddy Power remember. I don't think this is a great crop of 2milers and the Gold Cup horses are a different level. Peddlars cross could change all that though.

The first thing to go in any horse, if he had any to start with, is his natural speed.

The evidence in both the King George and the Gold Cup that Kauto can't quicken like he used to is overwhelming.

o be competitive in a Ryanair speed has the upperhand on stamina being a shorter race.

In conclusion if Kauto Star suddenly found a new lease of life and had the speed to win a Ryanair then why would they drop him back in distance?
Face facts Kauto doesn't have stamina problems he has speed issues and dropping him down in trip could only make matters worse.

I hate to say it but his chances of even making the festival must be remote.

Didn't have a prob lying up with Sizing at Down Royal, easy 3 miles there or is it even 2m7, 2miles5 at Chelts would look ok for me. i think its almost as likely that he just couldn't go through the endurance barrier that the Gold cup demands any more which is fine. He is running against Grade 1 animals in the Gold Cup. The Ryanair lot are Grade 2 animals, look how close the shot to pieces Voy Por finished, Kahahari King? Poq went off favourite and I bet if you asked Paul Nicholls or Ruby what would happen if Kauto and Poq met in a match over 2m5f at Cheltenham next week, he'd say Kauto would devour him. When speaking about Long Run earlier in the season, he even stated that he'd love to see what Kauto would do to a paddy Power field off 11 stone. These are class horses lads and even though they aren't up to winning Gold Cups anymore, wherever Long Run isn't next season, I reckon these lads will still take a lot of beating

For me Kauto is regressing from race to race at the moment. And I wouldn't be surprsied if he disappoints on his next run, sad though it may be.

If there is one horse out of the two, then KS should be retired ahead of Denman,imo.

Good point maybe if Kauto Star had contested the Ryanair this year.... However I tend to agree with others though next year is probably a year to late.  I think he will get beat in next seasons Kng George (by Long Run) and they may retire him.

I don't understand why this Kauto Star vs Denman debate continues it must be clear by now that their respective peak performances need different conditions.  Denman is only "the best stayer" at Cheltenham over the Gold Cup distance.  Kauto Star is "the best stayer" righthanded on a flat track. Denman is versatile as he can win 3 miles+ graded races and handicaps.  Kauto Star is versatile as he has won graded races from 2 miles to 3 miles+ both right and lefthanded.  Denmans greatest races were the 2008 Gold Cup and the 2007/2009/2010 Hennessey.  Kauto Stars greatest races were the 2006 Betfair Chase & Tingle Creek, 2006/2007/2008/2009 King George and the 2009 Gold Cup.

I dont think Denman will run in the Henessy again. What is the point ? It will be very hard to win again now off his current rating against another batch of youngsters.

A soft ground Betfair Chase could be right up his street after a nice long break.

Unless the owner wants Denman in the race to keep 1833 from shouldering topweight, of course, but topweight have a good record in the race anyway.


Bit unfair on the horse,Denman, to send to the Hennessy again, when you know he cant win.

Personally I believe Kauto could operate now as a kind of higher class Monets Garden and could still mop up plenty of races.

The type of race that Kauto really wants now is one where the emphasis is totally on stamina. His ability to travel and jump served him well in the Gold Cup, but his lack of a finishing kick saw him left for dead as the race for the finish line begu. First the speedier Long Run was able to quicken past him and then the relentess Denman was able to gallop harder to the line. In a Ryanair, the pace would quicken more instantly and he'd have no chance. I agree with Sintonian - the regression that has so often been mentioned in relation to Kauto has finally happened. He may get very bad very quickly now.

In relation to my suggestion about the Grand National, I think it's a plausible idea. I agree with others that the National is just a handicap, and not the be all and end all of jump racing but a race over 4m4f on good ground has to be to the advantage of an elederly Kauto. Of course, he's a multiple Grade One winner and the National is usually no place for that category of horse but winning opportunites particurly ones that might capture the public's imagination are at a premium. Because he's such a precious horse, the risk involved is far greater but I do believe that if the Kauto who ran in the Gold Cup was to run in this year's National off a mark of say 160 (current top weight Don't Push It & 8lbs lower than Kauto's current rating), then he'd have a serious chance.

By the way I'm not so much suggesting to run in the National. More a case of suggesting that the conditions of the race would suit. Which I think is fair.

I've just had to re-read the thread about 5 times.

Did someone seriously suggest running him in the GN?

Firstly, it's a stupid idea

Secondly, he'd put most of the field out of the handicap

Thirdly, it's a stupid idea.

If his Timeform rating of 168 is accurate and allowing for Phil Smith's leniancy towards horses at the head of the handicap (4-5lbs), all horses would carry their correct weights.

A stupid idea in what sense? Good ground, long trip - two conditions most necessary to Kauto running a good race - perfect.

Obviously, the horse is precious and the National is a demanding race. Which is why there will be responses like above. However, main point - conditions would be perfect for him. Not a stupid idea.

ignore him Viva, the guy is a plonker in the football forum.

fwiw, Kauto is in the 365 at Sandown.

Cheers Sint.

Provided Sandown's ground has good in it, then I think Kauto will take a lot of beating there.

It is nice for the debate purposes that Kauto is racing on into another season. It's intriguing but my gut feeling is that they will follow the same route as this season. Provided of course, he's still competitive in his races.

Although one other point is Nicholls' comment about Master Minded in the King George and if his participation have any impact on what way they go with Kauto.

In South african and Australian racing, trainers often tinker with old horses trips, often with great success. Does anyone think that maybe it is his endurance and resistance that are waning more than his speed, like when a boxer uses his punch resistance, or the way for example, Mike Tyson was basically a three round fighter for the last few years of his career. I thought Kauto travelled like the best horse in the Gold Cup, but maybe just didn't have the legs for the uphill climb. This is why I think maybe dropping back in trip might help him as he'll be meeting a lesser calibre of horse and won't have to maintain his effort for so long.

Said on here last year Kauto Star had absolutely no chance of winning the Gold Cup and proved right again. Ryanair chase next year is it? Lay time again then.

Retire the horse Nicholls - he's been there and done it. Nothing left to prove.

I think this debate proves that although Kauto is in a decline, its inconclusive whether its the stamina or the speed which is going. I agree that he travelled like the best horse for most of the GC, when he came round the bend to go up the hill he looked like the winner, and it was only from the last fence that he seemed out on his feet.

This would suggest that the GC trip does stretch his stamina, something I haven't always thought, but a lot have, and you can certainly make a case for it.
This makes running him in the National a non starter for me. Although his handicap mark has come down, he would still be top weight running over a distance too far for him, no matter how well he travels.
The Ryanair would be the better option, and although I initially thought he wouldn't have the finishing kick, perhaps he would still be able to win by being too classy and travelling at too high a cruising speed for the others to lay up? However I just can't get that enthusiastic about him winning a Ryanair.

I would still like to see him run in a handicap but the Sandown GC may be too far - however running in it may at least prove once and for all whether distance/stamina is more the issue.
I think I'd rather they ran him in some different races next season as suggested above by neill d, rather than try the same 3 race programme again. He would be extremely unlikely to win either the KG or the GC again unless there were injuries to Long Run and others. As I've said before I think an Irish campaign could bring about further success at the highest level - and it would interest me more to see him win some different races rather than finishing 2nd or 3rd or worse in races he used to win.

I think Paul Nicholls will have the King George in mind for MON PARRAIN after he wins either the Handicap Chase at Liverpool or the Whitbread with him....

He didn't have a stride for the last fence and took a short one before clambering over and losing all momentum. He was quickly 3l down and when he got back up to speed he was going as fast as Denman. I think they decided on the  wrong tactics by making the running with kauto. But it doesn't matter he and Denman had no chance with the winner, he was too fast for them.

But I wouldn't for a minute believe What A Friend would beat kauto off levels. Kauto tried to win the race, not run on for a place. He's still one of the top chasers in the land and can still win another couple of grade ones.

ballydoyle you wernt right he finished 3rd hardly meant he had no chance does it

CV, Kauto was certainly up with pace throughout, but he didn't make the running really. He tried to stretch them from about 6 out which was asking too much of him. IMV thats because 3m2f stretches him to the limit stamina wise. Although he met the last wrong he didn't make a big error, and Denman still went away even when he had righted himself. Only at the line did the distance start to narrow when I think even Denman started to feel the pinch or Sam eased off him knowing he was booked for 2nd.
I agree he's still one of the best around, and can still win grade 1's but now think that a slight drop in distance may actually help and some different races such as the Lexus or the Irish Hennessy would be interesting.

Isnt the ground usually a bit desperate for those races though Resner???


Think KS jumps a awful lot better on decent ground

I think unless it was heavy (which I admit it often can be) he would be fine. I agree he's better on better ground but with the winters we are having these days there isn't much decent ground around in this country either. He's won on most ground types and more than him not going on Softer going it can suit other lesser horses more and bring them into it. I would just rather see him campaigned a bit differently.

How about the Mackeson

Not sure if you're serious, but hadn't thought of that, would tick the distance & handicap boxes. Only thing with that is it would probably be a tough first race of the season.

He still has a huge class edge on evrything bar Denman and Long Run imo, I like Diamond Harry and Mikhal 4 next season as well but there ain't much out there to fear

Is he going to have many easy targets though?? Other trainers might not be so scared to have a crack at him, esp on easier ground.

Depends what happens on his run this spring...

I'm sick of this stamina nonsense. Kauto is one of the most stamina  laden staying chasers ever. Just because only two horses in his entire career have out stayed him Denman and Long Run doesn't mean he lacks stamina. He is two years on from his peak for god sake.

Kauto  dictated the pace of the second circuit. Tactics of a stayer worried about younger faster horses.  The horse had only ever got the 193 rating  because he out stayed that king george field in 09. His brilliance has been in maintaining such a high speed long after  his rivals have cried enough.  If the 2009 gold cup shows anything he has buckets of stamina.

It is truly baffling how people still believe a dual gold cup winner doesn't get the extended 3m. Baffling.

Here is something that is a fact, F A C T, all gold cup winners stay the distance, dual winners cement that fact even more.  You cannot win a gold cup if you do not stay, it's as simple as that.

Its just interesting CV, That people are trying to guess what PN will do and what you would do if you had the Horse.

Id keep him away from soft ground for a start. The Owner wants a handicap(or so he stated earlier) so this years Whitbread could be a possible. He isnt going to be that easy to place(assuming Long Run stays sound and in form)

Who would have thought that Denman would only win one race after his Gold Cup success???

CV, you're missing the point. I did not say he doesn't stay I said in response to the National being suggested as a target, that I feel the Gold Cup is the limit of his stamina. You may disagree, but thats just your opinion.

I also said that the high cruising speed still seems to be intact, which may mean he can outclass horses over a slightly shorter distance, without having to stretch his stamina to it's limit - which could possibly at the age of 11 be decreasing. This is just my opinion, I'm not stating it is a fact, as I think that until we see him run at either a longer or shorter distance we won't be able to say for sure.

Why does everyone automatically assume that the speed goes first rather than the endurance?

My point simply is, just because kauto has enough stamina to go and try to win the race doesn't mean average grade one winners who almost collar him like neptune and what a friend have more stamina. It's simply that the horse is good enough to run fast enough for longer to win over the guild cup trip. Kauto could hack around  sandown and kill them at the end in a whitbread easily.

I'm saying that as a general statement, not as a response to anyone.

Well he's certainly been given a chance by the Handicapper now to try it. What PN does now will be interesting as he imo, is not going to be that easy to place him to win races at the very top level

I would give the old boy a retirement from Grade 1's now. Turn him out in a field for a few months,then go hunting with him,and then aim him for next years Foxhunters,if thats allowed.Dont see why not.
Reckon the horse would love that.
He owes absolutely no one anything,and deserves a nice gentle time now.

But them i'm a sentimental old git!!

Zilzal what do you think PN will do now? I still get the feeling he will run in the same races next year. They also seem to be leaning toward punchestown rather than sandown if he runs again this season. I think punchestown is the better option personally as although I'd like to see him run in a handicap I think 3m5 is too far regardless of the type of race.

Seriously guys he only has one peer in grade 1's and that's Long Run. He could go and win the Punchestown Gold Cup, Down Royal, The Lexus, all this year if he wanted to, possibly another Betfair Chase.

^^^^^^^^^ Agreed He'll win everything Long Run isn't in, Mikhael would be the only horse in ireland who could give him any bother and he mightn't even be chasing then, Jesus, thats a race I'd love to see actually.

bother in Ireland I meant, also I'd be wary of Diamond harry, but the rest......... 1 more year at the top table I say

umm,what on earth has Mikd done to deserve to even be mentioned??
Can think of at least 4 irish chasers that maybe do,and he aint one of them.

CV,honestly mate i dont think he will be cutting it at Grade 1 level next season.
The youngsters have arrived.

Punchestown gold cup is very winnable this season. While he has a fair chance back at down royal. He's still rated 173 after all.

That's a distinct possibility CV but this talk of the Ryanair is a complete no no. If PN thought he was good enough to do himself justice in the Ryanair he'd run him in the Gold Cup plain and simple. Man has never shirked a challenge in his life.

As far as one poster saying he's in the Bet365 I think someone should tell him he's in it every year but he never runs it. PN surely won't send him there when the Punchestown gold cup is over the perfect trip and looks to be an easier race.

I think he would have won the RSA if he stood up on a line through Jessies Dream

Jessies Dream best bostons angle this season yet lost in the rsa. Form lines on improving chasers are not solid.

Mikhael was going to beat JD so easily at Fairyhouse, that I would consider that he is some way in front of him

and the rest, I think bostons improved for the fast pace as did JD I suppose, but I reckon Fairyhouse was the only time MD ran his race this season and I'm of the oppinion he looked set to build on that finally when falling here, If they decide to stick to chasing with him, I'm going to take the hint and back him next time, I thought he humped well till the fall and was expecting him to win. I'm taking a position as they say

It is hard to tell with some horses when they start regressing a bit, esp after a summer break as they get older.

Dessie went from winning a King George and then a handicap off 183 beating Nick The Brief whilst giving him 15lb(NTB Won the Irish Hennessey NTO) and finishing a honourable 3rd in the Gold Cup to not being at all competitive at all on his final three runs which was then retirement beckoned.

Just think of it in Human terms, its harder to keep or regain a level of fitness as you do get older

Kauto's form has clearly declined this season compared to last.

Therefore, I wouldn't be confident that he will retain his current level of ability next season, or even if his regression won't take an expotential like decline.

Talk of Long Run being the only horse better than him is very premature. We won't be sure until he runs again.

If he was, then I agree the races in Ireland might be easier won than the ones in the UK, but the ground is unlikely to be suitable.

Ground in ireland in may will not be suitable? I know it rains a lot here but it's not a fcking swamp. It'll be good ground, we always have warm may and june. Plus kauto  acts on all ground. Punchestown gold cup is defo winnable given china rock and pando are finished for the season.

As for next year down royal is always an easy grade one to win and he'd have place claims at kempton you'd think.

I was refering to the chase races in Winter - John Durkan, Lexus, Hennessy.

Current weather conditions here - well I guess the Punchestown will be run on good ground. I agree with a repeat performance of Cheltenham, the Punchestown race should be easy pickings.

Nice break too, he's better with breaks between his races. I'll be there, hope imperial commander comes over too.

Hes regressing,and that wil increase even more in the coming months.Cannot beat father time.
Younger legs have already made their mark,and their are more round the corner.Its time to retire imo,or have some fun in hunting.
He deserves it. And we have had more than our pound of flesh,thats for sure.
Do we want to see more of what happened in the King George??
Course we dont,but thats certainly possible if they keep going to the well.

Neill d, I backed Mdh, and while he was travelling nicely, it was a long way from when he fell so it's impossible to say he would have won imo. Does anyone else think he has problems with his legs? He's fallen twice this season and both times he seemed to jump the fence well enuff only to crumple on landing.
If kauto is to run again this year then I think punchestowns would be fav and a clash with imperial commander would certainly be very interesting and perhaps show us how much he has left at this point. Although a couple of you have pointed out that guarantees nothing when it comes to next season

^^^^^^interest theory on the legs, I just thought Ruby had him settled well and in a lovely rythm and Rupert was already done for. thought he'd have won from there though ya it was early

i don't think that connections would insult kauto and run him in a ryaniar....if he isn't good enough for the gold cup itself, then that would be it......i really can't imagine in my wildest dreams that are last memories of him would be in a race of that calibre.

Remind me of See More Business's end of his career....

I don't see a problem with Kauto Star running in the Ryanair chase apart from what I wrote earlier about him being 12 next year.  The Ryanair is a grade one and if I owned him I would be trying to add to the total.  Incidentally has any horse previously won more than fourteen grade one chases?  Down Royal, King George and Cheltenham will be the order of service for the next year and if he under performs in a race immediate retirement.

No chance he will run in a handicap or again this year.

Don't know about hurdlers but defo no chaser has won as many G1's as Kauto. The ability to win the tingle creek and ascot chase while being a staying chaser was a very unique talent which helped him win so many.

Punchestown it is then. If imperial commander can make it this could be a cracking race.

I hope IC comes over, would be a crackin good race.

Pity Pandorama and China Rock are out for the rest of the season.

Yeah shame about those two, I would imagine the ground would be too quick for joncol too. Outside of kempes not sure where the Irish challenge would come from. A big leap of faith is required to imagine cooldine pushing kauto, perhaps the likes of forpady or tranquil sea would step up in trip, who knows.

I'd say both those and jy vole will run. I'm sure Planet of Sound will come over again.

Which horses did you mean CV?

Jy Vole was hacking in the race last year before tipping up!

Forpady & Tranquil Sea. Jy Vole barely gets 3m on good ground, and Tranquil just doest see out 3m imo. Pady was wrong in the King George so will prob give 3m another go at Punchestown. He's not a 2miler anymore and stands no chance against the 4 Champion chase horses.

Would certainly make for a more intriguing race with them both in it. Im not convinced forpady would want this type of distance, but like you i suspect they will give it another go as he wasn't right last time. Tranquil sea I am a fan of, I think if he gets to grips with the quicker ground he may stay, he certainly stays 2m4f in a bog. Still would have to improve to get near kauto though. If he's anywhere near this years Cheltenham form then only imperial commander should get close.

Would not be backing Kauto now.He is definitely regressing as age catches up with him,and thats only going to get worse in the coming months.Its a sad fact of life i'm afraid.Yes,he showed in the Gold Cup he can still compete at this level but he is not the horse he was,and as he gets older it will become more apparent,and that much harder to finish off his races,which has already started.
He has been on the go an awful long time now,and now its showing.

Of course,having said that,it still depends on his opposition being good enough.

I wouldn't be backing him budd, but as they have no intention of retiring him I will certainly be supporting him. I do think though that the ground the shorter distance and possibly going right handed should all play to his strengths. And unless IC does show up the opposition doesn't like it will be the strongest. The age is a factor as at this age things could deteriorate very quickly, hence why I won't be backing him, that and the fact that without IC he will probably be too short, but judged on his last performance he would probably be tough to beat

yeh,think he will always have our support.But when a horse like What A Friend almost beats him at levels yer know he aint the same.Same with Denman,look what he did to WAF in the hennessey a year and a half ago.

Been racing since he was 3yo, he's won a grade 1 race every year since he was 4. He's been racing for 9 years. NINE and can run a 173 in the Gold Cup at 11. Total freak of a horse, we almost forget he won 2 Tingle Creeks it feels an age ago.

Anyway, he'll probably be an unbackable price but man will he bring a tear to my eye if he won one last time on my soil.

The greatest ever for me, just that tinge of regret that he made that mistake at the 8th last year or he'd have won the 3rd Gold Cup he deserves.

But will any horse put up a 186 followed by a 193 in the same year? Probably not

What a load of bollox! Cant argue with the first Gold Cup beat nothing and deserved to win it.2009 had 2 horses to beat Denman,and we all know about Denmans illness and prep for the race,and the other horse was Neptunes who sustained an injury during the race and never raced for over a year after that GC. A very hollow victory IMO.I will not talk down kauto's fantastic performances in the King Georges that he won or his Tingle creek victories as they were his forte but the betfair chases??? Once again his main adversaries were at home tucked up in their stables leaving Kauto to struggle to beat the Exotic Dancers and Snoopy loopys of this world.Beat trees at Down Royal and was all out to beat the mighty Lami a neck in the Aon,dont scream top notch stayer to me. Im sorry but his trainer insured that he had the easy route until he had no choice but to run his top horses together.
Please dont bother throwing the last Betfair victory at me with his beating of Imperial Commander because if Denman was in another camp he would have picked them both up and carried them over the line
Kauto Star is one of the best horses iv seen and deserves to be rated alongside the likes of Dessie but an Arkle? Never in a million years.He would never have beaten a fit Denman on a galloping lefthanded track and that includes Haydock,although the trainer would have you believe its a tight track now which would mean that the other 100 or so trainers in the country are numbsculls for sending there horses there
Kauto now needs an absolute maximum of 3 miles on a righthand course on decent ground to show anything like he has in the past.

CV,i think you mean he MAY have won his 3rd gold cup.
IC was pretty much faultless that day and hard to say who would have won.
They are there to be jumped though.

The argument that Kauto beat nothing at Cheltenham or Haydock is very lazy. You could look through ever single Gold Cup winner's form from the dawn of racing and pick holes in their wins, just as you have done.

For what it's worth, L'ami and Snoopy Loopy at their respective peaks were genuine Grade One chasers, and Exotic Dancer is comfortably in the Kicking King / War of Attrition bracket.

When Kauto won that King George in 2009, there's no way any horse would have lived with him, not even Arkle, let alone give him 17 pounds or whatever, that the ratings suggest he would.

The greatest jumps racehorse of all time - I would say so.

no one knows who was the greatest of all time.And your 3rd paragraph is just your opinion,no way that statement of fact, as it appears to be, can be backed up.

Exotic Dancer was a very good horse, I would have him ahead of KK and WOA, WOA was only top class for half a season and if you want to get into the horses Best Mate was beating.............. Kauto's era was the high watermark for staying chasing in the last decade imo. If you want to get into how lucky he has been with regard to his Gold Cup opposition, he was equally unlucky not to have a Champion Chase on his CV.It is versatility that masrks him out, The fact that Denman's Gold Cup came close to finishing him is in some ways a testament to how good a horse Kauto is.

With Masterminded now likely to go King George then Ryanair, there seems certain to be a change of plan for Kauto, assuming he stays in training that is. Judging but what Clive Smith said(one bad race and thats it), if Punchestown doesn't go well he may not be around next season after all.

However lets assume all goes well at Punchestown, where do people want to see Kauto campaigned next year?

Ireland reading between the lines

i think he's gone. end of the road after one more run.

kauto and denman can't run in the wretched ryannair...it would be an insult to them both.

^ agreed

Both horses have NOTHING more to prove, and should be retired

^ imo

Denman will surely run in the Hennessey to keep the weight down for 1833 who Nicholls is convinced is going to win it.

Wild card - Denman in the Foxhunters in 2012.

As for Kauto, I hope they let him retire with the grace and dignity the great champion deserves.

If Denman runs in the Hennessey, it certainly won't be to make the weight for anything else!

If he runs in the Foxhunters, i'll personally slap Paul Nicholls

Denman would of course have a chance in the Henessey on his own merit, but I think they'll find it hard to resist having him control the handicap for a horse in the same ownership who they really rate for the race. Nicholls basically said at the Festival preview evening in Cheltenham in March that Kauto or Denman would run in the Hennessey for 1833's handicap benefit.

agree with previous posts let kaoto retire if he gets beaten first time up

Denman hennessey not if he cant win please - both deserve to be looked after

Nicholls now saying Denman will run in the Lexus + Gold Cup then probably retire.

Deman wins the Gold Cup on the snaff - retires top legendary status.

and I wake up

Be great though

Sure would