Which was best, Denman or Kauto Star?

In fact Denman's only defeat to Kauto in the Gold Cup was after heart problems when he was doubtful for the race, was ridden with restraint unusually rather than setting a pace to test Kauto's jumping and true staying ability.

It's a question there's no right answer to. Both great horses. Kauto all class at various distances, Denman the powerhouse stayer. Ali or Frazier? I'll go for the former every time so it's Kauto for me.

^^^^^^^agree, but now not time to debate it for me

eric,how many gold cups has kauto won?and how many has denman won?
i think you may find the answer there

If only it was so simple evra! [;)]

At Cheltenham it has to be Denman, Only the most blinkered of supporters would oppose that imo, being more versatile KS would win hands down

Kauto Star has won twice as much money as Denman. Won 2 Gold Cups, 4 King George's and has been hailed as the best chaser in over 40 years and you have to ask.

On his day and 100% right round any course in the country nothing would get near Kauto Star. Not Denman not Long Run, nothing.

Kauto Star is a living legend Denman is his stable companion simple as.

But as mentioned before not at Cheltenham, never out of the first two and beaten by Kauto once, silly debate both two of the finest horses we will ever see, shame they were in the same era.

100% Denman like he was in 08 was pretty unbeatable if you ask me. I don't know you can debate it all day long. Kauto has probably achieved more in some ways but Denman is 3-1 up at the festival and the race he lost he was nearly dead that year and not right. I couldn't say who was the best as they are very different.

I've always believed Denman is the better horse,tbh. Kauto is a great horse in his own right, obviously, and had the versatility to go with it, but if you were to pair both of them together when both 100% fit, i'd take Denman everytime.

Yep I'd probably agree^

I'd go for Kauto but agree that Denman has the upper hand at Cheltenham. I suppose at their respecitve bests and at Cheltenham, Denman would win but at Kempton, Kauto would. So it's a debate that is sure to polarise opinion. The thing with Kauto, for me, was his consistency, versatility, longevity and healthiness. Which ensured he has been the number one force in jump racing for the past 5/6 years. Would Denman win Tingle Creeks or be considered worthy to run in a Champion Chase? Kauto's been racing since 3, two years more than Denman. He's also never had a single injury, bled once after this year's King George and had a scare after the 2008 Ascot Chase - that's it! But a fact that probably dosen't reflect fairly on Denman is that he's only won once since his Gold Cup - Kauto's won two Down Royal Champion Chases, two King Georges, a Gold Cup and a Betfair Chase since that day. An example of his consistency too.

Best horse-Kauto Star,only have to look at their respective race records,that tells you the answer.

One's French bred, the other's Irish bred, one prefers to go right handed, the other left, ones a relentless galloper, the others more a speed horse, one acts best on good ground, the other acts best on soft, one's had the assistance of Ruby Walsh all his career, the other's had a number of different jockey's on him...they're so different, which is why this is such an utterly pointless argument! It's like saying what more effective, a Ferrari or a Tank, it depends where you are and what the conditions are!

I prefer Denman, he's more my type of animal, but I wouldn't say he's better than Kauto Star, I wouldn't say he's worse!

thats why i tried to make it simple!!

Kauto was injured at Exeter in his novice year and missed the Arkle, pity he didn't win that Champion Chase as it would really help his case in the eyes of many. He Should have won it as well ya know, no disrespect to Newmill.

But he didn't because his jumping's always been a little suspect!!?

The performance that Denman won the Gold Cup with in 2008 would have beaten Kauto Star of any vintage : on that course and distance.  Obviously Denman would never have even been entered in a Champion Chase so different courses and different distances is oranges and lemons, BUT we can use judgement when comparing like with like and to me it is far too simple to say won 2 therefore better.  The cruising speed combiuned with the ability to stay the full Gold Cup distance was only tested in 2008 and Denman was clearly the winner.

i love them both.

Newmill v Kauto Star

Howdi v George Best.

KS was obviously the classier and achieved more than Denman, who is obviously a brilliant horse in his own right. History will undoubtedly show KS was a superior beast - the best chaser I have ever seen without a shadow of a doubt.

at his best i dont think denman would get near k star round kemp any where else close over 3m+ .denman never did it for me would love to see him over the big jumps could have won some grand nat

Quite surprised no one mentioned the act Ruby said Kauto was a sick horse in 2008 and had left his race at Ascot.

If he was wrong then PN must have wasted his time changing the seasonal plan and missing out a valuable race he had won the year before.

There is no way on this planet had Denman gone back 20 lengths in 2009. He upheld the form with Neptune Collonge or maybe you guys think both horses ran 20 odd lengths below there best. That would be a bit of a coincidence would it not.

Nothing but Arkle would have beaten Kauto Star in the 2009 Gold Cup the acceleration he showed of that top bend is what made him the greatest chaser since "Himself" graced the turf.

Denman was a top class chaser but too much emphasis was put on te so called relentless gallop that never really took place in 2008. "We weren't going that fast" Ruby Walsh.

Denman won the Gold Cup because he was by far the best horse in training after Kauto Star but he lacked that magical turn of foot that separated Kauto from all others.

BTW Everytime people ask which is best the same two words come up from Denman lovers "At Cheltenham" Well we aren't talking about one course or one race we are talking about which was the better racehorse and the record says it all > Kauto Star by a mile.

Kauto fans could easily bring Kempton into it and say if Denman had run in the 2008 race getting 10lbs he wouldn't have blown wind up Kauto's backside but Kauto fans don't have to because he's done it all at any trip you care to mention.

It is clear that whenever a pace has been on at Cheltenham that Kauto stars jumping and true staying ability, where the balance is tipped from finishing speed/stamina to stamina/finishing speed, have shown their limitations.

Denman is easily the better of the 2 at trips above 3 miles. I would say at 3 miles and below Kauto was far superior as the finishing speed/stamina balance was tipped back in his favour.

3-1 to Denman wasnt lucky, it is fact at trips above 3 miles.

nice chat to have lads. two horses i have love watching. It is like kevin keegan and kenny dalglish. Who was better. Different styles and ranges of ability. same with these two legends. I love the king george as a race and i will always like kauto the most. but we are privalaged to have watched both horses.
Relentless galloper against the speed horse over any distance, both brilliant jumpers from the best yard to teach horses to jump, but both with weaknesses that allows us to indentify with them.
The two horses that will will define this period of horse racing.
I think there is at least 1 more grade 1 victory in both them.

Denman's gold cup win was one of the best (if not the) best performance I have ever seen.  Denman on C&D but C&D only.  Therefore you have to say Kauto Star is/was the best all round horse.  Denman's connections knew this without even tyrying to find out the hard way and never put him up against Kauto Star anywhere esle but at Chelts.  Speaks volumes

silly logic that is Larry. They have different owners and if they wanted to win the King Geroge they would have gone for it.

Denman went and won two Hennessys as it played to his strengths, it was not for avoidance of his stablemate.

So they didn't want to win the King George?  And I'm the one with 'silly logic'?

Pretty sure that Harry Findlay even said so himself that they couldn't beat Kauto Star at Kempton

Both exceptional horses, we've been spoiled to have them both at the same time - but Kauto for me.

2 Gold Cups (plus a second and third place)
4 King Georges
2 Tingle Creeks
15 Grade 1s all told
3rd best chaser ever on Timeform ratings, an OR of 193
Over £3 million in prize money including the Betfair bonus

A once in a generation horse with a wonderful combination of speed and stamina.

It'll be great to see them in that new Veterans' Chase that Gillespie is going to introduce at the Festival in 2013. What a way to kick start that one- two 13 yo legends....

Denman in the Foxhunters next year. What's Kauto going to do to fill in his time?

Kauto and Denman are effectively 1-1 at Cheltenham excluding this year when neither was at their respective peak but both ran brilliant races with little between them. The question is, would Denman have beaten Kauto over 3m or so at Aintree/Punchestown? The answer for me is no.

^Let alone Kempton

3-1 to Denman last time I checked at Cheltenham. Excuses obscure any argument, the full package takes everything into account. Denman was the better staying chaser at trips above 3 m , Kauto the best chaser at up to 3 m.

Given that Kauto came down once it's fairer to say 2-1 (both animals had valid excuses in 2008 and 2009) and in this years GC Kauto rode what was in my opinion his best race around Cheltenham. Took it up and did the donkey work most of the way at a decent enough pace, got a bit tired up the hill and got a little squeezed out at the last but kept going all the way to the line at a course he isnt supposed to like.

Compare to Denman at Punchestown.....

Jumping ability is a massive part of a chasers makeup. How can you ignore that?

Whos fallen more in the last two years Eric ??

And which one can't travel right handed at all?

which one has won top class chases over 2m,2m4,3m,and 3m2??

and the only time out of 4 meetings Denman was beaten by Kauto over a staying trip was the season he had a heart problem, was thought to be missing the race, was ridden in a strangely restrained way yet amazingly still came 2nd. All well it probably would have been 4-0 to Denman at trips above 3 miles without the heart problem.

3 miles and under Kauto was much better. Poor jumper though hit a fence in every other race costing him his chance in a quarter of them.

Yet still Kauto has the better record in the Gold Cup (2 wins, 1 second, 1 third vs 1 win and 3 seconds). And Kauto has won 15 Grade 1's to Denman's 3.

Both wonderful horses, but only one has won repeatedly at the highest level over a range of trips and courses (flat and undulating, left and right handed).

15 grade 1's to 3,and people debate which is best!!

The number of Grade 1s either horse won is irrelevant. Denman could never have hoped to match Kauto's tally as he started later in life at the top level and has had fewer races over his racing career. Think strontiums comment sums it up best.

The number of grade 1's is relevant when judging how good horses are,although not the be all and end all.
Agre with Strontium also,sums it up well.

How can you say the number of Grade 1s won makes that much difference. Kauto has run in 20 so far, Denman in 8, so the comparison isn't a fair one. Kauto is however a far more consistent and versatile horse in my opinion.

It is ALL about the trip.

You cant compare Master Minded with Denman as they are totally different trips. Similarly you need to break trips down with these 2 as it is obvious to anyone other than the most biased fan that Denman 3-1 was a better chaser at trips above 3 miles, his Hennessy record emphasises this trip preference for Denman also. At 3 miles and below Kauto is extremely likely to have been the better though there is less evidence.

I know we're not going to agree about this Eric and there is no right answer. You've made your opinion very clear on this thread and others. I entirely agree with you that Denman's Hennessey wins off top weight were awfully impressive and his Gold Cup was awesome.

The question asked was which horse was better, not which was better at trip x (at least that's the Q in the title - I can't see the first post of the thread as I write). However, your point is interesting. KS has only ever run further than 3 m in the Gold Cup (5 times) plus one Bowl Chase, so your comparison is almost exclusively based on "the trip at Cheltenham", rather than just "the trip". It's obviously a shame that the two never met in the Hennessey or King George.

I'd prefer to take more into account than over/under 3 m (which strikes me as somewhat arbitrary), such as course variation, handedness, etc. For me, winning two Gold Cups, two Tingle Creeks and four King Georges is the better record.

I'd also note in response to Arkle's Shadow that KS has won 5 more Grade 1 chases than Denman has won chases altogether (albeit from 27 runs vs 19). You're absolutely right to point out that KS has run in a lot more G1's than Denman, but form your numbers their win percentages are 75% and 37.5% respectively.

Finally, I'm enjoying the discussion.

A long debate for a question with a clear cut answer. Passes the time I guess.

AS,
We are debating how good horses are,so their record in races is important.
Strontium's last post sums it up,the question was which one was best,and looking at their respective race records its quiet clear,well to me it is.
If the question had been which is better over 3m plus then we have a different debate.

The point of the thread is to highlight that horses are only the best over given trips ... unless you are Arkle.

The title clearly posed the usual badly thought out question ... the first post clarified it has to be broken down to trips to answer the question ... unless you are Arkle (however Flyingbolt will dispute that if you drop to 2 miles).