Grand Crus - Magnificent

Quite a compliment Ekbalco, considering the stayers we have had around in the past few years.

I must admit he was hugely impressive, they way he just galloped away from the field was breathtaking, who knows how much more is to come.

The Stayers was not looking much of a race up until yesterday, now it is one to look forward too. Big Bucks has a very plausible challenger. I thought Nicholls was a bit flipant with his remarks on Grand Cru, he has got to be worried.

Certainly a brilliant performance Ekbalco. I think the chink in Big Buck's armour is that he shapes like a very high class chaser who prefers little fences (in the form of hurdles). Grands Crus looks an out and out hurdler and I'm convinced he has the ability to give Big Buck's the biggest fright of his life. There is no doubt in my mind he can get him out of his comfort zone. Grands Crus is like lighting over the flights and he has that determined low head carriage you look for in a stayer as it increases the efficiency of their breathing. Let's hope they both get there fit and well as the World Hurdle was lit up yesterday.

I fancy Grand Crus to beat Big Bucks, in fact it may be Big Bucks, like everything else this season, will struggle to get Grand Crus off the bit.

Each time Grand Crus goes to the races he canters around without any apparent effort and wins in very facile fashion. if he is not a champion, he is giving a pretty decent impersonation of one.

The way he was sawing on the bit so far out reminded me of Dorans Pride who was one of the easiest winners of the stayers' hurdle you would ever see.

In an era of Baracouda, Iris' gift, inglis drever and Big bucks...

One comfortable win and suddenly he's the best stayer of all time?

Not the best stayer of all time but he was extremly impressive yesterday. Whilst the race of the week has looked like being teh Champion Hurdle this really looks like one of the most exciting match races. Since Baracouda and Iris Gift.
I for one cant wait!!

He did look mightily impressive but you do have to question what he beat.

None of the principle World Hurdle market leaders were there, like Big Bucks, Mourad, possibly Oscar Whisky, Punchestowns, Khyber Kim, Karabak etc.

I think it looked more impressive than anything Big Bucks has done, but Big Bucks only ever does enough to win; and I can see that happening in the World Hurdle - not beating Grands Crus by much but enough to get the job done.

There is a very interesting line of form between Big Bucks and Grand Crus through Fair Along.

BB beat Fair Along by 37 and 34 lengths respectively in their last 2 Cheltenham Festival meetings and by a very similar margin at Newbury.Fair Along is as tough and consistent as they come and therefore a useful yardstick to assess form.

On strict reading of yesterdays race - where GC beat FA by a very similar margin - you'd have to say GC was within 3-4 lbs of BB on the form book.

Now,the style of running of BB may negate some of the logic however in a 3 mile race I believe actual form reading to be preference to sectional or other timings as the style of the race can vary so much.

My reading of GC is that if he can travel as well as he did yesterday h could be away and gone IF BB hits one of those flat spots that have become a part of his make up.

Could be the race of the Festival imho!

Hugely impressive viaibly (assisted, subliminally at least, by his colour) and the WH cash for him midweek suggested the stable expected yesterday's performance.  My only reservation would concern the ground. I'd rather see him on a quicker surface before coming to a conclusion on his talent.

Grands Crus looked unbelievably good yesterday. i was there and it was a breathtaking performance. Like a poster on here has already said if he isn't a champion he is doing a good job of looking like one! I think this horse will win the World Hurdle. I no thats only my opinion and I really respect Big Bucks and what he has done when I say this. The main reason for my opinion is based on how quick and accurate the horse jumps. If Big Bucks jumps sloppily this fella will punish him. My one reservation is his ability to handle spring ground like he has the winter ground. If he does it could be the end of Big Bucks magnificent unbeaten record. Fantastic for the Staying Hurdle division and racing anyway! Roll on the festival.

Steeple, if I read your post correctly, you think were all being suckered into belieivng that was impressive because the horse is a grey?

He was majestic, wasn't he?

I agree with the original poster about it being the most impressive staying performance of recent times. He was tanking throughout the entire race and beat some really good horses without even coming out of second gear. I would imagine he probably could have run another half-mile without blowing, too, the way he came up the hill.

For me it was one of those moments that just screamed champion. In that sense it reminded me of the way Denman destroyed everything he faced in the season when he won his Gold Cup; he just appeared to be in a bulldozing league of his own. Horses make fools of us all the time, but I honestly don't see Big Buck's living with this fellow. Besides, if they are worried about him, I'd have though Scu can track him before pouncing late as he looks to have more instant speed to me.

GI Mac, it reads as it reads, it's how you interpret it, I suppose. Subliminally is the key word, I think.

After yesterday i actually think that 3/1 is still too big.....but will be much the same on the day, BB'S huge reputation and the fear factor he instills in plenty will hold his price up....any lesser horse than BB and i think grand crus would now be fav.he pulled for so long and visibly looked full of running at the end.....BB hasn't raced against a horse that is still going forward to that extent at the end of his races....as to what did he beat.....i'd say ...pretty much the same level of horse that big bucks does.I know the ground is a bit of a concern but you do get the impression that connections are ultra confident they've got the real deal.

Thats how I interpreted it Steeple, cannot believe I would be thinking any diferently if the horse wasn't grey.

Interesting discussion chaps and it's flattering that many knowledgeable heads appear to share the same view as me.
He absolutely annialated a field of high 140/low 150 staying hurdlers yesterday and on that piece of form he looks unbeatable to me in the WH.
However,March is another day and the big issue for me is the ground - on Chelters good to firm I don't think he would run.The ground y'day was like cold porridge,very cold porridge - it will not be like that come March.
Nicholls post race comments were disrespectful and has, in a strange way, made me more pro-GC and I'm looking forward to him thumping BB.

Pipe quoted today saying he's not worried about the ground as Cheltenham's policy nowadays is to ensure it is safe jumping ground.
As for Nicholls' disrespectful comments I don't know what he said, but I do know he was disrespectful to Imperial Commander after the 2009 Betfair chase. It could be fear masquerading as arrogance. I don't mean that disrespectfully. We're all human and express our emotions in different ways.
Everything depends on Grands Crus repeating the feat. If he does he surely wins and his last three runs give me confidence his performance trend is upwards.

It was visually very impressive but the horse has won 2 handicaps and a grade 2, BB has 2 world hurdles in the bag and will make Grand Crus look ordinary come March, not complaining with the better price now on BB tho

There is a slight problem with that reasoning,Peddlers.

When Big Bucks went into his first World Hurdle he had won a handicap and......err, the Cleeve Hurdle.

lol at best staying performance in memory, did you only start watching racing last week or something?

Is Ekbalco, Philip Larkin or has he been fkud up by his parents?

GI Mac, I think it's a bit like watching football - if there's player with blond hair or a shaved head, he'd better be decent because he'll be noticed by everyone throughout the match.  I've no doubt whatever that GC is a proper horse when there's cut in the ground and would not be at all surprised to see him beat BB (though I think Khyber Kim, if he runs, could come late and do both of them).

But when a short-priced favourite is also a grey and of a pretty striking build too, everyone's eye is drawn(much more easily than if he were bay or brown)to how he travels through a race and to his jumping - two of the factors consistently mentioned about yesterday.

Anyway, we can do with all the superstars we can get, so I hope he'd capable of striding out with the same purpose and rhythm on good ground.  Going by his action, I have a slight suspicion that he will always be at his best with cut, but we will see.

Other than punchestowns name me a genuine 160+ horse that big bucks has beaten? Truth is we will find out how good Big Bucks is now. I personally think Grands Crus will beat him, but then again ive always doubted what Big Bucks has achieved simply due to a lack of credible opponents, and thats why i backed Grand Crus e/w at 16s a month ago.

If he was the best horse in training...why was it an afterthought to send him back over hurdles? I doubt you would see binocular put over fences....

Will be dissapointed if this beast doesn't beat Big Buck's, he was just so impressive on Saturday, don't think Big Buck's will be able to handle him.

Aye, I know what you mean Steeple. Saying that I think we'd still all be impressed if GC was a bay or a chestnut.

I agree on the ground issue, he does have some knee action, but we'll never know until he's tried on decent spring ground. They said the same about MDH if I recall.

185+,183p their TFRs.

And errr...how many years was it that BB ran at the start of his jumping career with at least a  'soft' in the going ??? Amazingly 2 , with 18 races !  and given their hurdling styles which horse might be more comfortable on better ground , and more importantly fresh ground that can be watered after the start of the Festival. As MP says ' as long as its safe ground '.

lets have evens the bucks then gents

rather have 3's on GC

evs now

this is tremendous the banker of the meeting at evens ,keep betting grand cru chaps if big bucks comes of the bridle i will be surprised.

Where does people's Big Buck's confidence come from?

I'm not financially invested in either Grand Crus or BB, but it's undeniable that Grand Crus put in a top drawer performance Saturday, which is backed up on the ratings and gives him, with expected improvement, a real crack at Big Buck's. He beat some really solid yardsticks on Saturday, the ability of which is very similar to that of the horse which Big Buck's has been turning over time and time again.

So have I missed something? I must admit I think the prices are about right, based mainly on the fact that BB has been there, done it, and is a proven unbeaten champion. But I for one do not think him unbeatable in the slightest, I think he's made hay out of a weak division and has never faced a horse of Grand Crus' ability.

no bankers at Cheltenham

Well if they repeat the tactics on Grands Crus the last twice he has ran at Cheltenham, when he has powered on down the hill I suspect they will definitely get Big Buck's off the bridle. The injection of pace he has shown at that stage of his races has been impressive, and I believe it will catch BB out if they repeat these tactics, although at the same time I do wonder whether that might ultimately play into the hands of BB on the long run from the second last to the last.

A cracking contest in store nevertheless.

back the 2 of them large SIMPLES ??? its a match and as we all know as budd says cheltenham is a graveyard for shorties , so just back the 2 ov em ?????

mourad?? CG?

Bit of a cop out when Grands Crus will win.

i personally will stick with BUCKS and no one but no one will talk me off him evs CHARRGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
but sensible for some to save on the grey but not me @ this moment in time

I'll do a forecast Grand Crus - Big Buck's just to cover.

Looks like you'll be stuck in the Gorbals then cammy. Don't leave it too late.

and were is he evs TWEEDLEDUM ? A SMELL PORKYS

I backed Big Bucks at 4/7 nrnb with a major bookmaking firm. I now feel sick. Big Bucks has been emormously impressive for the last two years, but when has he ever done anything as impressive as Grands Crus did on Saturday ? The answer imo is never. And when it come to tactics, Grands Crus looks sharper doesn't he ? Sharper acceleration, sharper jumping. I demand an immediate end to all rain, snow and frost, and a ban on watering due to global warming or some other nonsense.

Can't wait for Big Buck's to drift to evens. don't rate anything Grand Crus beat on Saturday, it was impressive to be fair, but Big Buck's always just does enough and doesn't need to cartwheel around twenty lengths clear

have a feeling BB has not faced anything as good as this one

The champ is now out to 2.08. Blimey.

What has struck me today when reviewing grand crus' 3 wins this year is that when For Non Stop reappears i will be most interested! The run at the paddy power meeting looks astonishing in the light of what has happerned with Grand Crus since,talk about mission impossible!Although beaten on his only start since that came in a grade one hurdle when he reportedly had missed lots of work due to the weather in the lead up to the race.Off a mark of 135 he must be amongst the best handicapped horses in training

Formline through Restless Harry is particularly interesting imo- beaten 10 lengths by Grand Crus and 6 lengths by Big Bucks.

I'm not a big collateral form man, but everything seems to indicate that Grands Crus really is not far off Big Buck's, if at all. When we also weigh in that Grands Crus is clearly still improving and would appear to have more speed at the crucial 2-out stage of the race, it would be absolutely no suprise to me to see GC travelling easily approaching 2 out, BB being niggled, and for Grands Crus to put the race to bed from a staying on Big Buck's.

I wouldn't be too hasty in writing off BB. For all his quirks, he probably has the best engine in racing. He carried 11.7 as a 5-y-old in the Hennessy and would have gone close to winning it had he stood up.  On his first outing after that, back over hurdles, he gave Don't Push It 16lbs and a beating and he's undefeated in his last 10 races.  He's won five Grade Ones and five Grade Twos and can only beat what turns up.  GC's pace will almost certainly help him travel better and concentrate more but the grey's talent gives us yet another festival challenge to relish.

If the Ground is g/s or worse and it was 3s id say it was the EW bet of the meeting


I cant remember a year where the ground will be so vital in all the big four events

Zil, bet you also can't remember a year when we got an accurate going description

LOL, this will make you laugh, according to the going stick readings history, Saturday was quicker ground than Binoculars champion hurdle win

hard to be confident about either, personally i feel both will come off the bridle and BB to find more on the run in. both brilliant beasts.

29Jan11    Chl 24GS C1HG2 22K  11-0  6/14 32L, Grands Crus[33/1]11-4  Brian Hughes  143 *  * 
  27Nov10    Nby 25GS C1HG2 28K  11-0  3/6 5½L, Big Buck's[33/1]11-8  Brian Hughes

Iknow its Arcalis,and he can be a bit iffy re formlines,but thats a lot of diffence in distance with only 4lb less

Big Bucks has beaten what's been in front of him and in the main they have been pretty much what was in front of Grands Crus on Saturday. People who have followed BB wil believe he can cope with an improver like GC. I am in the camp of the new pretender myself thought he destroyed some fair horses and I think 3/1 NRNB yesterday at Ladbrokes was mighty value.

Budd, the only real value that collateral form holds for me is if it goes through a consistent horse. Arcalis is most certainly not a consistent horse!

no he aint joist i agree,i was just pointing out the large difference in distance,thats all.he did run a similar type race in both races,dropping out and then running on at the end.Anyway its certainly not a negative for GC,but some might take it as one for BB.
At the end of the day,one horse beat him,the other annhialated him,take it how you like.

Obviously a scintiallting performance. His hurdling is the thing I am most taken with. Very rare to see a Staying Hurdler quite that fluent. He'd jump better than most of the CH field for me.

I dont want to try and crab the horse in any way, but the only note of caution I would have is can he really out stay BB? He left the field for dead at the bottom of the hill, but actually never extended his lead from the final bend. Some may argue the race was won and nothing else was required, but I actually think he was tiring. I could see him pulling away from BB at the same point, but the champ getting back up. His speed at the key part of the race won him that, against BB, I think he'll need to prove he is an out and out stayer too. And I'm not sure he is.

The ground wasnt too bad when he won at Haydock. I actually think better ground will help him as it wont become such a war of attrition and he can use his better tactical speed. As I say, dont want to criticise him after such a brilliant performance, but I'd still be a BB backer myself.

Agreed , shades of Binocular earlier in his career .


It almost makes you wonder whether PN might have CH making the pace , however , the only thing about the Cleeve , that few seem to mention is that GC was actually switched from side to side of the field between hurdles , to stop him getting there , personally I think he wins further running in a straight line .

Good summary, Can't Catch Me, and a very fair view to take, imo. Punchestowns in the WH and Mighty Man in the JS Hurdle at Aintree both got first run on BB and were able to extend away from the rest of the field going for home. But their game tactics only served to draw BB more into the race and they ended up being the target that, arguably, BB needs in order to tease out his best effort and to see him make full use of his raking stride and powerful engine in a demanding chase to the line.

If a line-up of the best horses beaten by BB was compiled, it would make a better field than the one Grands Crus beat at the weekend. It would include Punchestowns, Mighty Man, Kasbah Bliss, TFR, Blazing Bailey, Powerstation (on good ground at Cheltenham, a pretty useful stayer) and Karabak. On what he showed at the weekend, Grands Crus would be well worth a place in that field alongside BB. Whether he could skip away from them around the final bend quite as easily as he did on Saturday, is another matter.

Grands Crus seems such a game horse, it has to be questioned how much is left in reserve when he crosses the winning line. By contrast, BB appears to run well within himself and yet has still found a way to win at top level repeatedly, albeit in many cases against markedly inferior horses. BB lengthens so well when pressed in a finish that he probably covers the ground a little quicker than it may seem; I am not sure he is ever going to be out-sprinted in a finish in the stayers' division, other than over a comparatively short distance. If he is to be beaten for speed, there is perhaps a case for thinking this is more likely to happen through a speedy hold-up horse swooping late and mugging BB near the line. That is not really Grands Crus' style.

But it would be wrong to think BB's isn't vulnerable to a quality horse like Grands Crus. BB's hurdling under pressure isn't always the smoothest. He almost gave it away with a poor (flustered or rushed??) jump at the last hurdle when chasing down Punchestowns in the 2009 WH. Grands Crus may well have the edge in that department and it could prove significant if it comes to a tight finish.

Although BB has not achieved great things on the clock (a highest TS of a relatively modest 147), a widespread view is that he could find much more if pressed to in a more strongly run race. I think it likely he could find much more if such circumstances arose, but a note of caution would be that I am not sure he had that much left at the end of his race against Punchestowns in the 2009 WH, albeit that the race did climax with what was quite a long, driving finish. Grands Crus has achieved even less on the clock (early days for that one, of course), so we don't know just how much of a stayer he would prove if the conditions and pace of the race turned it into a really demanding test of stamina.

The point is often made that BB hits flat spots, which potentially make him vulnerable against horses that have greater tactical speed. The extent to which he hits flat spots may be slightly exaggerated. On better ground, in more truly run races, BB mostly travels very sweetly, as far as I can see. One potential downside though to riding a horse like BB who has such a big engine is that it is easy to get there too soon. But equally there is danger of over-compensating for that by sitting a little too far back and thereby making yourself more vulnerable to a horse that can quicken well from the front at key stages in the race. If the pace isn't particularly strong in the WH this time, Walsh will possibly need to be particularly astute with his timing and positioning of BB, if he is to cover adequately the danger of Grands Crus getting to the front and then quickening again in a dash for the line.

Grands Crus looks a fantastic prospect. At odds a little above evens, however, I would see BB at the bet.Worth keeping one eye on the other contenders though, if only because the two at the front of the market are creating such big prices about the rest of the field even before we know exactly who will line-up on the day. In the extreme case of having Punchestowns, Khyber Kim and Mikael Dhaguenet take up the engagement (not to mention Fiveforthree, Oscar Whisky and Solwhit), the prices on the day would likely look very different to the current odds about the front two in the market. Mourad is also a fairly generous price for a horse that is hard to assess against the English form, but clearly is progressive and may be improving to a far greater extent than his current odds for the WH suggest.

Excellent post as ever aka.

I was there on Saturday and was obviously very impressed, and having re-watched it was similarly impressed. However, I do think if the race was run in the WH like it was on Saturday, GC would give BB a lovely tow into the race, and then BB would power past in the run in.  Ruby has said he thinks BB would go close in a champion hurdle, so he is not short of speed himself, and the way GC ran so keenly, I think it will be difficult for Tom Scu to hold him back. After the race he said he just wants to please you and go faster and faster, so it could be difficult to hold him.
Also I thought Bensalem ran a great race and although I dont think he will trouble the front 2, I havent thrown away my ew w/o BB voucher yet. Have saved on the will hill chase at 20s tho after King intimated they could go chasing.

On better ground (assuming GS handles it well enough), there might be enough pace on for Grand Crus to race with his usual keenness without it being difficult for the jockey to prevent the horse pulling his way to the front earlier than ideal. In that scenario, it might deliver the jockey the option of coming with a later run than was the case in the race on Saturday and tactically that might be the better way of seeking to beat BB. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

As Albion Dan points out, GS seems such a keen going, willing horse, he might not be the most tractable or versatile tactically. But the pace was nothing special on Saturday, so a faster pace on better ground in the WH might see him in a different light and not pulling himself forward quite so much.

When will they flip-flop please?

i waz there at chelts and cheered grand c home and hope to do same come march

Superb posts as always, aka. Dont have access to full TS ratings, but a TS of 149 for BB does seem quite modest. What are the highest TS ratings achieved in the past few years by staying hurdlers? This division seems  to contain the quirkiest of horses; ie those not giving their "true" running even in G1s. Baracouda won many races by being held up, Inglis  Drever always, but always hit flat spots and as for Bannow Bay...  Iknow John Randall reckoned Mighty Man was the champ in this division a couple of times. Do any staying hurdles always produce honest end to end gallops or are they invariably tactical affairs? Sorry for all the questions (open to all btw), but would like to hear any opinions.

I have read this thread entirely and rewatched the last 3 races of GC, although he is eager to get on with things I would not class him as keen going and he certainly does not take too much out of himself early doors. He travels exceedingly well in his races and will benefit from a stronger early pace than he has so far experiences in handicaps and non championship races.

GC has the potential to win either by dictating the pace from the front or by tracking BB and waiting for a flat spot and then kicking on. If the flat spot does not happen then GC should be able to outpace BB as he seems to beable to quicken off a decent gallop.

I feel GC is now the bet of the festival and holds all the aces in this race.

come march if the ground is more good than good to soft big buck's will win. If more on the soft side u will see a new champ in grand crus only time will time gl all!

nervous times for those who backed BB thinking he was a banker

he aint now,if he ever was anyway!!

may not be after March,as he faces a couple he has never faced before.Both look real threats.

i take it you mean the best 3m hurdler around.

Ribellaro - in terms of TS ratings for staying hurdlers, the one stand out rating in recent years is Inglis Drever's 175 for his win in the 2008 WH. Baracouda in the 2003 WH and Iris' Gift in the 2004 WH both achieved TS ratings of 161. Big Buck's TS ratings for his WH wins are 131 in 2009 and 139 in 2010. Inglis Drever's other two WH wins achieved TS ratings of 141 and 148.

I suspect Big Buck's is well capable of achieving much higher TS ratings than he has posted so far, if and when he meets the appropriate race conditions to produce a really fast time for the going, though I guess that should never be taken for granted. Clearly, the WH is usually a fairly true run race, but the pace in the first two thirds of the race is often insufficiently testing (on the drier Spring ground, at least)to turn the finish into an out-and-out grind to the line. Some deployment of tactics or tactical speed in the final third of the race, in that context, can be very effective.

Jetcrowts - I would agree, 'eager' is a better word for Grands Crus than 'keen going'. On what he has shown so far, he looks a reasonably easy ride overall and where he has pulled a little in the early stages of his races this season it would be easy to excuse that in terms of the pace just not being quick enough for him - a problem that is less likely to arise in the context of the WH.

On Saturday when GS got nearer the front and started to see more light, he clearly wanted to get on with it and the jockey (sensibly, probably) quickly let out some rein and allowed the horse to bound on in front turning for home. What we don't know is how the horse would have reacted if the jockey had wanted to hold on to him a bit longer at that point and had applied restraint. In the WH, off what is likely to be a faster pace, the same situation might not arise. But I am not sure Grands Crus will ever be a horse on which it is easy for the jockey to finesse things with in riding the finish; it may be more a case of letting the horse get on with it and hope he is good enough, when the pace picks up and the field starts to thin entering the final third of the race.

I think we'll see the emperor Big Buck's isn't wearing any clothes this year.

I think we'll see the emperor Big Buck's isn't wearing any clothes this year.

. . . but he'll still have his Porsche engine

Well thats hard to work out really,as you have to compare horses at different distances and hurdles and chases. i do know that BB is running in a less competitive area,and one that most agree is the less rated,certainly compared to Churdlers and Gold Cup and QM types.
So i cannot have any horse being the best,just the best in their field.

Odds on by March!!!!

Big Bucks will have this horse for dinner when their heads go down.