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Strong on the Captain ?
Feel come March this horse will show us just how special he is.
Lets not forget how this horse went past Binocular when fighting fit, form upheld -).
Big Zeb a worthy winner last year but a double QM winner ? Not for me.
Master Minded a fantastic past winner but i feel we may have seen the best of him.
Sizing Europe a good winner in a poor Arkle where CCB bled.
Took all the 16,s i could and still think 10,s a great bet, thoughts ?
Feel come March this horse will show us just how special he is.
Lets not forget how this horse went past Binocular when fighting fit, form upheld -).
Big Zeb a worthy winner last year but a double QM winner ? Not for me.
Master Minded a fantastic past winner but i feel we may have seen the best of him.
Sizing Europe a good winner in a poor Arkle where CCB bled.
Took all the 16,s i could and still think 10,s a great bet, thoughts ?
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Cannot see any reason why Big Zeb cant win again.Best last season,and looked good the other day.CCB is not as good as him,and have seen nothing as yet to suggest he will be.
" CCB is not as good as him "
That has still to be proved, not seen him in any trouble yet, his only mistake over fences was at the last against last years Arkle winner when he was ready to press the button, imo.
On hurdles ratings theres every reason to hope he,s at least as good.
That has still to be proved, not seen him in any trouble yet, his only mistake over fences was at the last against last years Arkle winner when he was ready to press the button, imo.
On hurdles ratings theres every reason to hope he,s at least as good.
No,he has to prove he is as good as Big Zeb,which at the moment he is far from doing.
Last season BZ was winning the QM,CCB was running in the novice ranks and failed to win the Arkle,big difference.Yes he may bridge the gap of course,but he has it to prove.
Let's not forget that prior to Big Zeb's (fortunate?) Champion Chase win (Master Minded clearly not a force of old, Kalahari King wanting further, not much left that could have Champion Chaser pretentions.) he a dodgy jumper who hadn't beaten a lot. One swallow does not a summer make. His head defeat by Master Minded looks good but Punchestown form is notoriously dodgy.
Captain Cee Bee, for me, is the superior racehorse, shown by his winning of a VERY good supreme Novices's. He might have taken a bit of time to adjust to fences and has been unlucky with injuries, but now that his jumping is more assured, if he's fit and well in March then I just can't have Big Zeb ahead of him.
G'waaaan the Cee Beast
Captain Cee Bee, for me, is the superior racehorse, shown by his winning of a VERY good supreme Novices's. He might have taken a bit of time to adjust to fences and has been unlucky with injuries, but now that his jumping is more assured, if he's fit and well in March then I just can't have Big Zeb ahead of him.
G'waaaan the Cee Beast
Wind up surely!!
Unless you actually think a horse that last season was a novice that could not win the Arkle is better than the current QM winner.
Once they start jumping that is how they are judged,not by a novice hurdle win!!
When CCB has achieved what BZ has,then you may be able to justify your Superior racehorse comment,until then its an opinion with no substance.And to be honest-ridiculous.
And looking back at his QM win,he jumped superbly and was an impressive winner.It looks like he is now jumping fine and to me looks bl00dy hard to beat at 2m.
Unless you actually think a horse that last season was a novice that could not win the Arkle is better than the current QM winner.
Once they start jumping that is how they are judged,not by a novice hurdle win!!
When CCB has achieved what BZ has,then you may be able to justify your Superior racehorse comment,until then its an opinion with no substance.And to be honest-ridiculous.
And looking back at his QM win,he jumped superbly and was an impressive winner.It looks like he is now jumping fine and to me looks bl00dy hard to beat at 2m.
they wouldn't have you handicapping Joist. Got to do it on track first!
The Captain was injured in the Arkle, so cant really say he failed in it.
Budd- you've completely missed my points and just read what you've wanted to read.
Firstly, I said that CCB's Supreme Novices's win makes me think he is a superior racehorse- i.e., he has greater natural ability than Big Zeb- could Big Zeb have won that race? I highly doubt it. However, the fact of the matter is, that CCB hasn't reproduced this form over fences yet, probably due to injury. He was not right in the Arkle, and his subsequent win was impressive, and therefore at the moment there is little to suggest that CCB has lost any of his natural ability. Of course, until he comes up against the best then we can't be sure, but it's just my opinion. I can't really see any indication anywhere that he has declined since his Supreme Novices's win, he's just been a bit unlucky.
Secondly, I said PRIOR to Big Zeb's win, his jumping was not exactly inspiring and he hadn't beaten a lot. Stop being blinded by the title of 'Champion Chaser' and actually look at the race Big Zeb won- yes, it was a lovely performance on the surface. But Master Minded was clearly not at his best and Kalahari King wants further. No other horse in the race could have Champion chaser potential. (obviously imo, but I'd be intrigued to see what other horse in that race could be a Champion chaser).
And Howdi- of course
Firstly, I said that CCB's Supreme Novices's win makes me think he is a superior racehorse- i.e., he has greater natural ability than Big Zeb- could Big Zeb have won that race? I highly doubt it. However, the fact of the matter is, that CCB hasn't reproduced this form over fences yet, probably due to injury. He was not right in the Arkle, and his subsequent win was impressive, and therefore at the moment there is little to suggest that CCB has lost any of his natural ability. Of course, until he comes up against the best then we can't be sure, but it's just my opinion. I can't really see any indication anywhere that he has declined since his Supreme Novices's win, he's just been a bit unlucky.
Secondly, I said PRIOR to Big Zeb's win, his jumping was not exactly inspiring and he hadn't beaten a lot. Stop being blinded by the title of 'Champion Chaser' and actually look at the race Big Zeb won- yes, it was a lovely performance on the surface. But Master Minded was clearly not at his best and Kalahari King wants further. No other horse in the race could have Champion chaser potential. (obviously imo, but I'd be intrigued to see what other horse in that race could be a Champion chaser).
And Howdi- of course
Im on the cee bee train much better hoss than big zeb
id imagine that the article in the rp yesterday about what barry geraghty said, having read it seems aimed at captain cee bee
fackin love the captain, if only he didn't bleed 
Will back him though
Will back him though
Also there was nothing fortunate about Big Zeb's Champion Chase win. I was against the horse as much as anybody as I didn't think he had shown anything near the ability to merit the hype surrounding him (apart from Punchestown '09, when I though Master Minded was over the top)
Captain Cee Bee still has it to prove to get to the level of Big Zeb/Master Minded (don't think we saw the bet of him in the QM) but if there's one who can, it's him. Very lightly raced for his age and undoubtedly a high class beast, I'd say he's definitely the value in the race at this stage
Captain Cee Bee still has it to prove to get to the level of Big Zeb/Master Minded (don't think we saw the bet of him in the QM) but if there's one who can, it's him. Very lightly raced for his age and undoubtedly a high class beast, I'd say he's definitely the value in the race at this stage
Captain Cee Bee beating Big Zeb in a bumper 4 years ago giving him 7bs may back up the OP's argument 
Ok,could any of you CCB fans who think he is a better horse than BZ give me one piece of form that backs that up over 2m chases.
We can all have our opinions,fine,but to say a horse is better than another,i think that needs to be backed up,and for the life of me i cannot see it.
Hurdles form and Bumper form is the way to find out the best 2 mile chaser!
Not for me.
We can all have our opinions,fine,but to say a horse is better than another,i think that needs to be backed up,and for the life of me i cannot see it.
Hurdles form and Bumper form is the way to find out the best 2 mile chaser!
Not for me.
Well stop it,i am trying to be serious here.
Naughty chap!!
Naughty chap!!
Once again Budd, reading what you want to read. Take a deep breath and look at what I wrote.
Firstly, I said that CCB's Supreme Novices's win makes me think he is a superior racehorse- i.e., he has greater natural ability than Big Zeb- could Big Zeb have won that race? I highly doubt it. However, the fact of the matter is, that CCB hasn't reproduced this form over fences yet, probably due to injury
FFT- you think there is nothing fortunate about Master Minded running below par and the opposition other than that, being poor?
Firstly, I said that CCB's Supreme Novices's win makes me think he is a superior racehorse- i.e., he has greater natural ability than Big Zeb- could Big Zeb have won that race? I highly doubt it. However, the fact of the matter is, that CCB hasn't reproduced this form over fences yet, probably due to injury
FFT- you think there is nothing fortunate about Master Minded running below par and the opposition other than that, being poor?
No. Forpadydeplaster is as useful a yardstick as you can get imo
Right,firstly i dont give a monkeys about hurdles form over chases when we are talking about the best 2 mile chaser last season.If you had said CCB was the superior hurdler,fair enough,but superior horse? sorry,not having it.
Secondly,if CCB has not reproduced his hurdles form over fences yet,how on earth can he be better than the current Champion Chaser??
Time may change things of course,but CCB has to prove he is up to QM level still,as he has not run at that level yet.
As for the QM last season,i happen to think it was one of the best performances of recent years by the winner.
Secondly,if CCB has not reproduced his hurdles form over fences yet,how on earth can he be better than the current Champion Chaser??
Time may change things of course,but CCB has to prove he is up to QM level still,as he has not run at that level yet.
As for the QM last season,i happen to think it was one of the best performances of recent years by the winner.
Well, I do give a monkeys. If you want ignore one of the best Supreme Novice hurdle winners of the last few years as a pointer to a racehorses ability, then fair enough and good luck. I don't understand why you can't see that if a horse is exceptional over hurdles, he doesn't suddenly lose that ability by going over fences. CCB has just been unlucky enough with injuries to reach that level yet. Of course I'm speculating slightly but I've always said IMO and never made any assumptions, you've just read what you wanted to read and got your knickers in a twist on the basis of the number next to Big Zeb's name being larger than the one next to CCB's.
I'm saying CCB has the ability to be better than Big Zeb as a chaser, I've not said anywhere that he has proved it yet. This is an opinion of mine, based on his overall previous form.
On your argument so far Budd, lets hope I never catch you using a novice chaser's hurdle form to back up their claims in a novice chase if they're so unrelated
That's fair enough if you think it was one of the best of recent times. Personally, I don't think he beat much/favourite didn't turn up and was flattered. Opinions innit.
I'm saying CCB has the ability to be better than Big Zeb as a chaser, I've not said anywhere that he has proved it yet. This is an opinion of mine, based on his overall previous form.
On your argument so far Budd, lets hope I never catch you using a novice chaser's hurdle form to back up their claims in a novice chase if they're so unrelated
That's fair enough if you think it was one of the best of recent times. Personally, I don't think he beat much/favourite didn't turn up and was flattered. Opinions innit.
And assumptions is the wrong word, ffs. I meant definite statements, not assumptions.
Now who is reading what they want to read??
Read my first sentence above again.That is not comparing novice hurdlers for novice chases,its comparing a novice Hurdler with a Champion Chaser over fences!! Of course i would look at hurdles form when looking at horses starting over fences.Ultimately though it is down to jumping ability though,and the best Hurdlers dont always make the best chasers.
I am judging Big Zeb on his achievements on a racecourse amd CCB the same.And my conclusion is that Big Zeb is the better,dont mind if you disagree,like you say opinions innit.
Read my first sentence above again.That is not comparing novice hurdlers for novice chases,its comparing a novice Hurdler with a Champion Chaser over fences!! Of course i would look at hurdles form when looking at horses starting over fences.Ultimately though it is down to jumping ability though,and the best Hurdlers dont always make the best chasers.
I am judging Big Zeb on his achievements on a racecourse amd CCB the same.And my conclusion is that Big Zeb is the better,dont mind if you disagree,like you say opinions innit.
Actually, you're reading what you want to read again. Getting quite bored of discussing something that the other person doesn't seem able to comprehend. I never said you were comparing novice hurdlers and novice chasers, I was simply making a point regarding your logic of ignoring CCB's Supreme Novices's win. You'd look at a novice chaser's hurdle form as a guide to it's ability as a chaser. Therefore, why do you suddenly forget this when the horse is no longer a novice?
I'm not arguing with your opinion, I offered one of my own which you then had an issue with and I'm happy to talk about. But it does get tedious when you don't take the time to digest what I'm saying. You're looking at racecourse achievements and think Big Zeb is better, absolutely fine and in a very literal sense, true. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture, speculate a bit, find some value and oppose the favourite.
I'm not arguing with your opinion, I offered one of my own which you then had an issue with and I'm happy to talk about. But it does get tedious when you don't take the time to digest what I'm saying. You're looking at racecourse achievements and think Big Zeb is better, absolutely fine and in a very literal sense, true. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture, speculate a bit, find some value and oppose the favourite.
I am not ignoring CCB supreme win,not at all.
I just dont see it as important as you thats all.
What i do Joist is when they are both chasing i then dont really look at theIr respective Hurdling campaigns,i tend to just concentrate on how they cope over fences mate.I do understand your points and apologise for maybe not making myself more clear.
I like to look at the bigger picture myself in trying to find value,and i am in no way saying CCB cannot win the QM,just right now i dont think he is as good as BZ,he may turn out to be though especially if, as you say,he shows his Supreme form over fences.I am currently of the opinion that BZ could run up a sequence in the QM,dont see that amount of great opposition to be honest,but thats at the moment!!
I just dont see it as important as you thats all.
What i do Joist is when they are both chasing i then dont really look at theIr respective Hurdling campaigns,i tend to just concentrate on how they cope over fences mate.I do understand your points and apologise for maybe not making myself more clear.
I like to look at the bigger picture myself in trying to find value,and i am in no way saying CCB cannot win the QM,just right now i dont think he is as good as BZ,he may turn out to be though especially if, as you say,he shows his Supreme form over fences.I am currently of the opinion that BZ could run up a sequence in the QM,dont see that amount of great opposition to be honest,but thats at the moment!!
Fair enough, no worries.
Best of luck and I'm sure there'll be plenty more debates in the next 4 and a half months or so
Best of luck and I'm sure there'll be plenty more debates in the next 4 and a half months or so
Maybe Dan,but i have a feeling we have seen the best of MM.
42 posts on this topic before Master Minded is mentioned tells it's own story IMO.
id be concerned about pfn stepping him up in trip. i dont see any logic behind it and as bad as jono is goin, id have albertas ru instead
10yos don't win Champion Chases (MF did but he's a tad special)
So ten year olds do win the Champion Chase then .
Although i,m certainly not saying he can be mentioned in the same sentence as the great MF.
Lets be honest, he'll be as fresh as most lining up.
.Although i,m certainly not saying he can be mentioned in the same sentence as the great MF.
Lets be honest, he'll be as fresh as most lining up.
Well according to this blog so far it,s a two horse race, 10-1 seems even better value !
If this horse was a women i would of married it and had 6 kids with it..My fav horse in training by far just hope he doesnt burst a blood vessel on us again..If all goes well the Captain will show them who the true champ is..
we shall have a good idea when he meets the big boys,look forward to it.one of the intriguing things of this season amongst a fair few,as usual!! Great stuff.
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