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23 Nov 13 23:54
Date Joined: 22 Sep 10
| Topic/replies: 14,245 | Blogger: Over2.5's blog
Groves dead on his feet back turned head down carl woulda had at least another 3 pot shots. well done ref
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Report jc30 November 24, 2013 12:01 AM GMT
Froch was dead on his feet after Round 1. Should the fight have been stopped then? I agree Froch looked like he was gonna finish him but Groves shouldve been given a little more time.
Report paddletoe November 24, 2013 12:08 AM GMT
Stopped too early but Groves was tiring so much Froch would have got to him at the end of that round or in the last three.
With hindsight Froch comes away the big loser from the stoppage though. It made him the villain when he probably would have won a great fight and the only talking point would be how he took everything threw at him and came back to win.
Report jc30 November 24, 2013 12:09 AM GMT
Agree 100% with you there Paddletoe
Report DancingDenman November 24, 2013 12:12 AM GMT
Was'nt Froch exhausted too? Hardly bursting with energy was he.Used to love him but looked like a shot fighter tonight needs to retire.
Report paddletoe November 24, 2013 12:17 AM GMT
The irony is that with so much animosity before the fight Groves ends up not losing face if he ended up being stopped less controversially. Still don't think it should have been stopped when it was but if you are in the Groves camp the fight ended in the best way it could have for him for his career, the fact he keeps face after all the animosity in the build up and the fact he has won around the public for his performance in the ring and words and tears outside it.
Report Eeternaloptimist November 24, 2013 12:21 AM GMT
I'd disagree with that. Froch has always been a 12 round fighter and open to the right because he keeps his left low. The surprise was the power of Groves early. I think Groves put so much into those first four or five rounds that when there was a subtle momentum shift around the sixth Jim Watt totally failed to pick it up because he was wedded to the Groves was streets ahead narrative. By the eight Groves looked really tired to me and yet the first sign that Watt was truly aware of what was happening was just before the stoppage.

I think Groves is a very lucky lad. His stock will rise considerably on the back of this and he was saved from either a hard beating in the last few rounds or a concussive and possibly career altering knock out which I think was on the cards at the time of the stoppage.

Now he can come back aggrieved feeling he was robbed.
Report Eeternaloptimist November 24, 2013 12:21 AM GMT
Last post to Denman.
Report paddletoe November 24, 2013 12:29 AM GMT
Yes, Groves was definitely tiring badly from about the 7th round. The first sign was when he stopped calling Froch on.
Report paddletoe November 24, 2013 12:35 AM GMT
If you could freeze time I think Froch would win a rematch. The 36 year old Froch would be too strong for the improving younger fighter but a 37 year old Froch would be a different matter.
Report stevealan November 24, 2013 12:52 AM GMT
Eeternaloptimist 24 Nov 13 00:21 Joined: 28 Jun 10 | Topic/replies: 21,784 | Blogger: Eeternaloptimist's blog
I'd disagree with that. Froch has always been a 12 round fighter and open to the right because he keeps his left low. The surprise was the power of Groves early. I think Groves put so much into those first four or five rounds that when there was a subtle momentum shift around the sixth Jim Watt totally failed to pick it up because he was wedded to the Groves was streets ahead narrative. By the eight Groves looked really tired to me and yet the first sign that Watt was truly aware of what was happening was just before the stoppage.

I think Groves is a very lucky lad. His stock will rise considerably on the back of this and he was saved from either a hard beating in the last few rounds or a concussive and possibly career altering knock out which I think was on the cards at the time of the stoppage.

Now he can come back aggrieved feeling he was robbed.

Report Eeternaloptimist November 24, 2013 12:54 AM GMT
It's hard to say on that score paddletoe because there are so many variables. Froch is 36 but is he an old 36? We don't know. Some of B-Hop's best performances were at an older age than Froch. Groves knows he hit Froch with everything and whilst he put him down he couldn't put him away. Only he truly knows how much he had left but I think he was spent. If I'm right then fighters who lose comprehensively do so int he mind as much as the body and are often beaten more easily next time. Then there is the biggest imponderable of how much Groves takes from this experience and how much he improved between now and then.

For me another fighter would be like me racing Mo Farah. In a 10000 metre race I could beat him over the first 100 metres. Same I fear with Groves. I don't think he can keep Froch off him for the full 12 unless as I said earlier Froch suddenly ages.
Report sc1883 November 24, 2013 12:56 AM GMT
I would have my mortgage on Groves in a rematch, Froch had no defence and looked slow & ponderous. If he boxed smarter towards the end he could have coasted to victory
Report Eeternaloptimist November 24, 2013 12:56 AM GMT
My old mate stevealan. How are you buddy? Have you got over me taking your dinner money on Hatton? Laugh
Report patrick starr November 24, 2013 1:02 AM GMT
froch to me looked like he had plenty of improvement re fitness,the only thing jim watt called right was frochs attitude werent right imo,if he can beat groves in the shape he was in tonight,groves has zero chance next time if you expect froch to improve from the respect he will have gained for him tonight imo
Report sc1883 November 24, 2013 1:03 AM GMT
Froch looked in supreme shape prior to the fight, age is catching up with him end of!
Report patrick starr November 24, 2013 1:04 AM GMT
and im not saying froch was out of shape,just that i have seen him look in better shape
Report treble November 24, 2013 1:05 AM GMT
Think I will post this here too.

You wonder how much belief Groves will have for a rematch.

Groves fought to the absolute best of his abilities and although ahead on points, he couldn't stop Froch. Even if it wasn't stopped early, he was done and it would have been over eventually.

Before the fight, he genuinely believed he could knock Froch out or stop him. Now he's tried and failed. Can he truly make himself believe again that he can overcome Froch?
Report dukeofpuke November 24, 2013 1:20 AM GMT
imo its 50/50. groves would of learnt a lot and froch would of been  shocked how tough he match possible but does groves want to beat up an old man in a year or two. its time to move on to another agenda.if the froch/groves  camp want rematch  then thats fine as its only for money.but no future for groves if he takes it.if he wins we all say he beat a spent froch.if froch wins we say groves aint good enough.but we can all see groves is the future
Report thefarmer November 24, 2013 1:35 AM GMT
I think the key to this fight was Groves splitting with Booth. Groves was winning the fight easily and then got sloppy, trying to engage in an all out war with Froch. The lack of discipline has cost him here as the referee has needed little excuse to stop the fight. If Booth had been in his corner i doubt he would have deviated from the gameplan which was working so well for him. If Groves had continued to box the way he did in the first six rounds he would have won on points fairly comfortably. Although the way the judges were scoring the fight he was probably on a hiding to nothing.
Report book November 24, 2013 11:33 AM GMT
what a load of tosh,groves was in full control of fight from the 1st bell,the ref couldent wait to step in,obviously told to do so.
Report paddletoe November 24, 2013 11:52 AM GMT
Think whats been glossed over by the stoppage is the way two of the judges were scoring the fight. Almost certain Groves was never going to get a points win based on their scoring.

Imagine the judges scorecards could not have included the 9th round as it was not completed. So based on the scoring of two of the judges Froch would have won more rounds than Grove ( he had a two point start after the first ) and been level at worst and possibly ahead if the 9th round had been completed.
Report carlos monzon November 24, 2013 7:31 PM GMT
If that was the correct stoppage then they should never have fought at all.

I mean if ur gona have stoppages like that then y was cambell and lee fighting guys who were 50/1.

Guys were gona get stopped anyway so y fight. Just stop it as it starts to get uncompetitive. In fact boycott the fight there gona stop him anyway
Report carlos monzon November 24, 2013 7:46 PM GMT
Y do people fail to realise froch himself was dead tired after that attack. He was wasted. First time he comes forward they stop the fight.

Proper competitive stuff that.

Froch: I totally agree with refs decision, I had free shots on him.  U can't have that in boxing.

Froch: dnt know y a handful of people r booing, I excited everybody, its not my fault ref stopped it.

Fact is, handful of people were not booing cus they were family and friends of urs Carl. The rest of us are seething and booing with venom.

Froch 2 years ago on groves::    This guy is fearless, his streets ahead of me wen I was his age.  There is no fear in this kid. His the complete package, relentless and highly talented. Mature, calm, Speedy. Can't praise him enuff.

Froch 2 days ago:   Guys never fought any1, his immature, has no respect, got no chin, etc. etc.

I'm gona knock him out with a double right hand. Lollllllol.  Froch has probs never threes double right hand in his life, I mean a guy who is as slow as froch can land 1 right hand from the outside never mind 2.

Only time he lands his right hand is in the clinch and usually to the back of the head.

Wen was the last time froch fought cleanly. I think it was Taylor, no back of the head punches, froch is lost v shot Taylor. Lol. Same man was beaten by pavlik on PTs clearly abt a year earlier. Lol

Beat Abrahams cleanly cus he was sh it. Couldn't play dirty with that guy as he was a bull.
Report Jimmy Diamond November 24, 2013 8:05 PM GMT
Thought it was slightly premature at worst to be honest Carlos. All these people saying theyve never seen a worse stoppage have clearly never watched much boxing.

Froch clearly outboxed but then again, Carls strengths have always been his strength, chin and toughness.
Report Shrewd_dude November 24, 2013 8:16 PM GMT
Definitely worst stoppage I've seen in a world title fight.
Report tobermory November 24, 2013 8:45 PM GMT
It was actually Froch's own tiredness which put Groves on the ropes in the first place ; huge swing from an off balance, leg weary Froch  , missed , and his body collided with Groves .

Groves was at that point very tired himself , but was not being staggered by punches.
Report alabaster crashes down November 24, 2013 9:11 PM GMT
wow carlos you've lost the plot mate. The stick Froch is getting is nothing short of a disgrace in my book.

Yes the scorecards were pish, yes the stoppage was a bit premature, neither of those things were Froch's fault were they?

It was a fairly dirty fight full stop, its laughable to pretend only Froch was responsible for the rough stuff, you're listening to Jim Watt too much.

End of the day Froch got caught early with a massive shot that 95% of supermiddleweights would never have got up from. He then got his arse handed to him for the next 5 rounds and shipped some massive massive shots and the bloke still had the balls and heart to claw his way back into the fight. It was an inhuman display of strength and courage and his reward was to be booed by 20,000 idiots.

I'm gutted about the stoppage really because another 30 seconds and there'd be no arguments that Froch had pulled off one of the greatest come from behind victories ever.

It was a tremendous fight and both men deserve massive plaudits.
Report tobermory November 24, 2013 9:15 PM GMT
Very debatable to say the least that Froch was gonna stop him anyway !

He was booed for his charmless interview i thought
Report Topboys November 24, 2013 9:24 PM GMT
Think thats pretty much spot on alab. In my eyes Groves threw everything into them 6 rounds and couldn't put froch away. Very well done to Groves though I've been eating humble pie all day as I thought he was going to be smashed. I do think the KO wasn't far away and the referee stopping it may have done Groves a favour as he may have lost the battle but he won the war for sure.
Report carlos monzon November 24, 2013 9:31 PM GMT
Of course it wasn't the worst stoppage ever,  Chavez Taylor, tyson v rudduck and Carl William etc Jesse ferguson etc.

But the thing is groves was hit by a good looping wild tired right hand which hurt groves. But that was earlier, groves was firing back. Ok can't complain too much about that.

But what I'm complaining about is the fact that grovves has hammered froch everytime his sparred him. Every1 in the camp new this. Look at mcrackens face before the fight. Look at the way froch was loosening up before the fight. He was dead tight.

Secondly, y was groves made out to be the bad guy like usual. Froch gave him a chance, how his just a little boy, like he shouldn't be getting the fight???  Answers r clear, groves made the fight, he was mandatory, he the 1 who got paid peanuts.

Thirdly, the bloke groves has been totally honest about everything jimmy, yet froch has just contradicted everything his ever said, check out the utube clips from 2 years ago.

4) so y does every1 hate groves when his called the ugly kid and bad breath boy all along. He has consistently broken down the fight time and time again.  All froch says guy dnt respect me, he will find out, I'm the tough guy. I deserve to be respected. For f00k sake the guys fighting u.

He dnt respect u cus all the other guys r sh1t compared to groves as groves has sparred and dominated them all just like  has done to u mr froch!!!!!

5) y all the boos for a young super star who has won everything and fought every challenger possible, y were the media so cold towards him.  Shows u what the media can do right.

6) y did froch need to bring the judges, his **** ref, the media and the promotor for a young 25 year old boy who has just left his trainer, uv tanked him in sparring, knocked him down sparring etc etc all for a man who has no chance.

7) what a stylish victory Carl, fantastic performance and u can't even go and shake his hand never mind embrace him, instead he refused to shake his hand  and never would have if it wernt for the media, mcracken, Hearn.

What a fantastic warrior u r Carl froch. Stylish elbows, back of the head shots, hitting in the holds, hitting wen the ref calls break. Look at ur face in the mirror Carl. It's not that bad. Others have had worse.

Love frochs jab last night, the one wen he jabbed and pulled his head back, as if it was to say if u dnt hit me I won't hit u. Wicked jab that mr froch right from the start.   U ever seen froch jab like that before???  Reason was groves.

Duke turtle was always right about u, whatever was I thinking wen defending this guy.
Report carlos monzon November 24, 2013 9:44 PM GMT
How many clean punches did froch land in the 1st 6 rounds.

Rounds 1 and 6 were groves, 2 4and 5 were pretty comfy. Only rounds u could give froch were rounds 3, 7,8.  All very debatable.

If u look at the 1st 6 rounds take out the holding and hitting, back of head shots, gloves elbows, grazing shots, cuffs and puffs, how many clean punches u count from froch.

I count 23 punches for froch. I count at least 70 for groves, with groves landing the better shots as well.

Round 7 and 8 were close as groves was foolish as he tried for the ko and good job too cus he was never getting the decision and he knew it and in trying to do so he was tiring, but good thing for groves is Carl was gone too.

I mean looking at it and knowing the 2 there was no way froch was stopping groves. Groves is smart, if he was taking a bad tanking he ain't afraid to take a count. He did it v Anderson and that was worse, he got banged clean by degale and wobbled much worse.

He was tired, but Carl IMO was more tired and battered. 1 shot to the temple that's all it was, no damage done at all as fight was stopped all Carl did was throw 2 shittty shots and at the same time groves threw 2 shots which were better and harder but difference was froch landed his and groves never. That's all it was right there
Report alabaster crashes down November 24, 2013 9:58 PM GMT
I take it you had a decent bet carlos? I think it's colouring your judgement. To say there was "no way" froch was stopping groves is ridiculous, he may or may not have done, Froch was obviously coming on and George clearly fading. I totally agree he should have been given longer but you seem unwilling to even admit he was under the cosh when the ref jumped in.

All the stuff about their personalities aint for me really, they both made arses of themselves in the build up but really, who cares?
Report Shrewd_dude November 24, 2013 10:25 PM GMT
Alabaster I've been a Froch fan and although I backed Groves to win when Froch went down and was tagged early doors I said to those I was watching with I really hope he doesn't get Ko'd or stopped as given his career he doesn't deserve to end it not that. But the guy was a complete and utter tit in that interview after. Still the greatest respect for him as a boxer but after that it's quite clear the guys an **** and deserves stick for that which I think much of it including the booing of him was for.

To sum it up don't expect to take the piss out the fans by saying the ref did a good job when he was abysmal and cheated everyone out of what was building up to be an excellent fight and not get some grief for it.
Report carlos monzon November 24, 2013 10:31 PM GMT
Tbf any1 can be knocked out anytime but based on the evidence showed there and in sparring, groves was over the worst of it and Carl was defo more tired and battered IMO.

Apart from the guys who complied the odds, most punters on ere no way was froch a favourite in this fight.

Absolutely noway. Groves has been smashed more in amatuar contests, was fairly shaken v degale, and silva cut had him panicking but froch just landed 2 punches, that's all he landed. The worst was over.

The dirty tactics were awful

Groves never ran like he claimed he would
Report Angel Gabrial November 24, 2013 11:39 PM GMT
Froch did too much talking after that fight and has lost the repect of many neutrals and maybe some of his fans are now neutral or even think he is a tit.

I am yet to hear a boxing pundit worth anything to agree with Froch.
Report Angel Gabrial November 24, 2013 11:42 PM GMT
Just to add

Why the referee grabbed George Groves and put him in a headlock while Froch was allowed to punch Groves in the ribs is unusual, surely it is the dominant fighter that needs to be held off as to protect the vulnerable fighter! The referee seemed confused.
Report dustybin November 25, 2013 10:17 AM GMT
Sorry angel that's nonsense.
They were going on about that on sky and it's totally clutching at straws.
The ref was on the other side of groves so when he made his decision to step in and stop it he grabbed groves and pulled him away protecting his head.
Ideally he should have walked around and stepped between them, but seemingly he felt groves was in danger and felt that was the quickest option.

I still thing they need a standing count in the rules, which would have meant this debate wouldn't have been required IMO.
Report carlos monzon November 25, 2013 2:05 PM GMT
Dustybin ill tell u wats no sence and complete joke it's u.

Look at ur last sentence, give him. Standing 8 count. 

It's professional boxing man, y on earth r people asking for a standing 8 count in a situation where people would be going beserk if this is an amatuar bout never mind a huge ppv event where frochs purse goes into the Millions.

I mean standing 8 count, wtf man wats next headgear, less rounds.

Now as to  comparing Perez v muhamadov, muhamadov was in fact complaining about headaches and a few other things. Groves didn't give a f00k about anything
Report dustybin November 25, 2013 2:28 PM GMT
No, a standing count would be applied as and when a ref decides they need to stop a fight, instead of stopping it wrongly they give em a count like they been knocked down.
If after that time they havnt got the ability to defend then its all over.
Report pan07 November 27, 2013 12:18 PM GMT
great interview with adam booth talks about the standing 8 count. agree with everything he says.
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