Bloodstock & Breeding

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06 Jun 18 19:08
Date Joined: 11 Dec 10
| Topic/replies: 1,083 | Blogger: truehoncho's blog
It's about time the industry joined the 21st century. The nonsense of dragging mares around the country and spending large sums on swabs and tests needs to come to an end. That money wasted and going out of the industry is better put to prize money. In a world where the carbon footprint is obsessed about in every other industry the crazy practice of transporting mares goes on oblivious to it all. There are dozens of reasons it needs to stop and not one I can think of to keep the nonsense going.
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Report yer ma June 7, 2018 1:49 PM BST
Not a debate I have massively strong views on but to say there are no counter arguments seems a bit much...

AI in livestock and Non-TB involves a massively less valuable product - surely you'd accept control over Frankel / Galileo / Dark Angels semen going far and wide (!) has to be a concern to Stallion owners - its not insurmountable but its not nothing.

Overproduction is universally seen as an issue in TB breeding.  Costs (and unprofitability) are probably the only major limiting factor (given stallion number/books are not capped).  Bring down mare breeding costs will increase foal numbers - it certainly has with non-TBs.  Again not insurmountable but an issue.

Equine AI costs are not negligible   Vets are unlikely to drop costs where a more valuable product is being used AND they are probably going to have to be certified if some sort of control system is devised - adding cost.

I don't see any direct link between my costs going to stallions and prize money unless you suggest I pay the same under AI but the surplus goes to the levy.

Given the frankly pointless consultancy projects the TBA regularly funds I entirely agree a feasibilty study and suggested workable plan for AI would be worthwhile.  I could probably knock one out (ahem) in a few weeks if they'd like to give me 50k.  Cheers
Report kincsem June 7, 2018 5:39 PM BST
AI would result in thousands by one sire, and diversity gone.
Now you can't avoid sons of Northern Dancer in IRE/GB pedigrees.
This was caused by the importation of his sons in the 1970s and 1980s, with no or few mares by Northern Dancer imported.
Now the breed is full of sons of Danzig by Northern Dancer..

Billesdon Brook, English 1000 Guineas winner, four sons of Northern Dancer (Danzig; Nijinsky; Be My Guest; Sadler's Wells)
Alpha Centauri, Irish 1000 Guineas winner, three sons of Northern Dancer (Danzig; Lyphard; Nureyev)
Together Forever, English Oaks winner, two sons of Northern Dancer (Sadler's Wells; Nureyev)

My mare, four sons of Northern Dancer.(Danzig; Nureyev; Danzig; Sadler's Wells)
When she went to a stallion, the possible foal, six sons of Northern Dancer.(Danzig; Sadler's Wells; Danzig; Nureyev; Danzig; Sadler's Wells)
Three times she went, three times she was empty.
Too many sons of a sire results in barren mares.

And you want to ramp it up.
Report Big Black Cat June 7, 2018 10:25 PM BST
You'd need a very secure cryopreserver to keep a check on those very valuable straws belonging to Galileo and Dubawi.....
Report sageform June 8, 2018 3:58 PM BST
If the semen could be guaranteed to be from the named stallion, insemination by the owner of the mare without having to travel would make a lot of sense but as said above, verification would be a nightmare and there would need to be a limit on the number of doses sold per stallion, otherwise only 5 or 6 sires would be stood. And if long term storage is possible, would Galileo and Frankel manage to produce enough to keep them in luxury for 100 years?
Report sageform June 8, 2018 4:01 PM BST
For those not familiar with the process, I was once employed in a large pig breeding company who wanted some semen from Germany (before the EU) and someone brought a straw back in a biro in their pocket! Impossible to police.
Report truehoncho June 10, 2018 2:57 PM BST
Sorry for the delay in responding, I have been dragging mares over the A66 and down the A1!!

Kinscem, you simply put a limit on the number of foals allowed. It's so simple its stupid. In fact you could say that champion stallions or those with the highest strike rates could be allowed bigger books and then we would get more quality foals. As far as concentrating the bloodlines it would probably do the opposite, more stallions from abroad would be accessible. When the horse dies no more foals (there's and easy rule). With DNA testing nobody will begetting away with much. Yer Mar it costs about £200 for tests per broodmare. 8/9000 foals means well over 1.5 million to prize money if breeders put this in a breeders fund. All the old arguments are just that, old. They don't hold up in the modern world. On the other hand, you could make large parts of the country (highlands/islands) accessible to breeders where land is cheaper and people need work.
Report kincsem June 11, 2018 6:21 PM BST
It would work if there were enforceable limits on "covers'.
But the stallion farm / company that dominates today broke the old "rule" of 40 mares a season, and then doubled that with shuttling.
If they had a chance to have 3,000 "covers" from each of their stallions at 10k each that is where they will go.
There would be nil demand for the lesser stallions if everyone could have Galileo, Dubawi, Deep Impact, Justify.

Everyone wants clean oceans, but everyone uses plastic bottles.
The same with thoroughbreds, everyone wants a good horse, nobody cares about the breed.
Report sageform June 13, 2018 7:16 PM BST
smuggling semen would of course mean that you couldn't use the Sire's name but if you had a lower grade sire it would be easy to us semen from a top one on your own mare and clean up when it won a small auction race after you had bought it in. If all horses that have their debut run have DNA tests it would control it but that is a very expensive game.
Report truehoncho June 13, 2018 7:51 PM BST
I can't really see controlling semen distribution much of a problem All foals have a DNA sample taken when registered. I don't think you will ever get Galileo for £10k, in fact it may make him more expensive if there is an enforced limit of let's say 350 foals. I'm sure there are plenty of foreign customers that could increase demand and raise his price. The demand/supply curve isn't linear. It really isn't straight forward and I don't think it will make much difference to most stallions. It could make a big difference to controlling infection.
Report Formtwist June 13, 2018 8:14 PM BST
You can no more limit a sire's progeny under AI than you can under the current system. Restraint of trade rules stop that.
Report kincsem June 14, 2018 3:27 PM BST
You would have cool boxes going to Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, China, UK, France from Ireland.
Report truehoncho June 15, 2018 12:01 AM BST
and to Scotland
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