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20 Dec 17 13:06
Date Joined: 15 Jun 01
| Topic/replies: 21,720 | Blogger: sageform's blog
I have looked at all of the Frankel progeny in the RP database that have so far run (in any country) from his 2 crops.
Total to have run: 111.
Of which:
32 won first time out.
17 were second
12 were third
7 were fourth
43 were unplaced.

Many of the ones that didn't win fto have won in subsequent runs of course but they do seem to be good first time. Also worth mentioning that none of those trained by Aiden O' B won and few were placed first time.
Pause Switch to Standard View Frankel so far.
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Report Big Black Cat April 30, 2018 11:59 AM BST
Good performance from Cracksman yesterday, and I'd expect him to improve.  We'll see what he's really made of at the Curragh though.

Elaqarm has a big chance in the guineas, I agree.  That Godolphin beast who bolted up in the Craven looks pretty decent though.
Report sageform May 4, 2018 8:07 PM BST
Mori also favourite tomorrow.
Report Big Black Cat May 11, 2018 10:03 PM BST
Elaquarm ran well in the Guineas.  Seems to need further. Strange that he's going to the Irish guineas then.

Frankuus and Eminent rather fluffed their lines today though.
Report neill d May 12, 2018 1:27 AM BST
Trainer of Elaquarm is a huge limiting factor, can't win Classics painting by numbers; and I know he trained the dam before anyone says anything.

Wouldn't know what to make of Meade, Eminent seems to have a measure of talent but all the sire's worst traits too. They should maybe geld him and go pot hunting later in the year. I could see him murdering horses from the front on the tight tracks down under.
Report sageform May 12, 2018 11:11 AM BST
What looked like a very disappointing day for Frankel yesterday was saved by Ganayem who beat what looked a decent field of maidens at Nottingham. Eminent clearly had a problem, Frankuus has had an awful lot of racing while Hamful was a huge price in the market for his debut and ran like a long term project. Mirage Dancer failed to impress last year so has to improve to win the 2.50 at Ascot while Ejtyah is stepped up in class in the  Lingfield Oaks trial and La Figlia is visored for her handicap debut in Ling. 3.40.
Report sageform May 18, 2018 4:58 PM BST
More mixed results for Frankel recently. Thursday: Zabriskie was a very respectable third in the Dante, Sun Maiden won very easily from a modest field at Salisbury while Guild and Crystal King both looked very slow at Newmarket. Friday. Count Octave does not seem to be progressing. Wadisalfa won nicely but Herculean, although second, seemed unsuited by Newmarket. Surya a well beaten fifth but First Eleven at Newbury won so three winners for Frankel, all with nice 3yo's in 2 days.
Report sageform May 18, 2018 5:48 PM BST
And Baghdad (5.40 York) finished off the day in style with the fourth win by a Frankel 3yo in 2 days.
Report sageform May 24, 2018 12:12 PM BST
Two Frankel runners in Group races this evening. Without Parole in the Heron Stakes over a mile and Weekender (4yo) in the Henry ll over 2 miles. His progeny seem to take after Galileo rather than Kind, although being by Danehill, she could be expected to produce runners at a range of distances.
Report sageform May 24, 2018 12:16 PM BST
Sorry, I overlooked Silver Quartz in the Heron Stakes. He is not without a chance.
Report Big Black Cat May 24, 2018 2:46 PM BST
I saw an analysis of Without Parole and his maiden win a couple of weeks ago on ATR.  Apparently he registered an incredible speed figure on debut in his maiden.  They put a list of horses who achieved similar or better speed figures on debut and the were all pretty much G1 winners of some repute!

I'd expect him to win this race easily and be a very serious contender for the St James palace at RA.

I cant for the life of me understand why Elaquarm is going for the IR 2000G after what his trainer said after his run at Newmarket.  They will be taking on another batch of the O'Brien battalions, and although Saxon Warrior has Epson on his agenda, this lot won't be too shabby.  And will be specialist milers too.
Report Big Black Cat May 24, 2018 6:59 PM BST
That should have been his second start of course....
Report sageform May 25, 2018 11:38 AM BST
Plenty of excuses from connections for his unconvincing win yesterday but he did win a listed contest from 2 horses with similar RPR ratings. The time at Yarmouth might be suspect so talk of him being a Guineas winner were probably over the top but he could still be a Group 1 performer as could Gabr.
Report Big Black Cat May 26, 2018 7:11 PM BST
Elaquarm ran 'too bad to be true' according to his trainer today.  Or maybe he's not a miler and got outpaced.  Or maybe he's not as good as they think?
Report sageform May 26, 2018 7:25 PM BST
all of the above I think. At least Frankel did get 2 GB wins today. The Grand Vizir over 2 miles and Mirage Dancer over 12 furlongs looked thorough stayers.
Report Big Black Cat May 26, 2018 8:21 PM BST
They all appear to stay well don't they.  He is more like his dad than his mum it would seem. Elaqarm may improve over 10f or more.
Report sageform May 26, 2018 8:38 PM BST
BBC, you seem to finding it as hard to spell Elarqam as most of us do Happy His reputation came from the pedigree, the sale ring and the yard and not really from form. He won a Group 3 at 2yo and was a respectable fourth in the Guineas but that is probably as good as he is unless as you say he improves over longer distances. I backed him for both Guineas but he won't carry my money again unless he improves a lot. Mirage Dancer was surprisingly easy to back at Goodwood and took his time to get past Blakeney Point but then went right away. The string of placed efforts might have put some off but they were in much better races.
Report Big Black Cat May 27, 2018 7:46 PM BST
Indeed sageform!  I of course remember his mum very well, she was a pretty good filly.  Its no surprise to think with a miler as a mother and a sire who got 10f, himself sired by a staying influence (Galileo) that he'd need further than a mile to be at his best...
Report neill d May 27, 2018 10:28 PM BST
Trainer is a massive negative with good horses, horse ran like he wanted to just get the whole ordeal over with, I'd say they over-trained him. Would love to see that horse with Stoute or Weld.
Report Big Black Cat May 30, 2018 12:17 PM BST
Shamardal? Attraction? Double Trigger? Just off the top of my head.

I'm all ears though.  Always trying?
Report neill d May 30, 2018 3:12 PM BST
All ten plus years ago, look at the career of Lumiere for an insight. He had a really nice winner by Shamardal there at Windsor on Monday, I'll probably back it for the Coventry as I was very impressed by it. His handling of good horses is extremely suspect for me, huge peaks and troughs because of overtraining. I don't think he differentiates enough from what I've heard and underestimates how hard group 1 racing is. My guess would be that Elarquam had a very hard race in the Guineas and he worked him too hard afterward. He ran like a horse that just wanted the whole experience over with.
Report neill d May 30, 2018 3:28 PM BST
I would accept that some horses like Permian, Buritano and Heavy Metal thrive on the heavy routine, but I think that there are horses who need to be handled a bit more delicately. Possibly a bit harder to get the best work riders the further north you go as well which is a huge element of it. There is a long history of the Arab owned horses being overdone by their trainers, up to Appleby who looks to be turning things around now, and of course the likes of Gosden and Bolger who are geniuses.
Report neill d May 30, 2018 3:45 PM BST
You'll love this if you're a Johnston fan actually, he is an interesting read always.
Report Big Black Cat June 1, 2018 9:10 PM BST
I wouldn't put myself down as a fully paid up member of his fan club to be honest.  He comes over as miserable and dour sometimes.  I'll never forget when Soviet Song beat Attraction in the Falmouth and suffered her first defeat.  He would have understandably been a bit upset, but came across badly on his interview (looked like they went too slow, blah blah-which was rubbish as they were just outside the course record).

Another thing that made him look like someone who was a miserable sod was his responses to some questions in one of Elite's publications.  Apparently he doesn't allow his staff to have pet names for their horses-he insists on them calling them their full names at all times!  He wouldn't like us referring to Sovie, Jude and Zulu at all.....
Report neill d June 2, 2018 1:29 AM BST
Strange man, would have to respect him, though as we all do. Lake Volta today was probably evidence of another one flying under his regime. He'd a nice filly in the novice stakes at Goodwood too. His two year olds look very good this season. I'd be starting to stand him as the season wears on though, If he had something coming into autumen that looked something, I'd be against it all over as well as anything for the Classics next spring.

i didn't like a bit of Cracksman tody, strange for a horse so generous to run like that, I see similarities with Eminent and although he might have hated the place, he might too be coming to the end of his tether as a racehorse.
Report A_T June 2, 2018 9:33 AM BST
I was surprised they ran Cracksman at Epsom again - it was evident to many watching last years Derby he hated the track. Still he got up and won with FD only pushing - look dot have plenty in hand. I would expect Cracksman to be very hard to beat on tracks like Ascot and York.
Report kincsem June 2, 2018 11:16 AM BST
Still he got up and won with FD only pushing

You must have been watching a different race.
The race I saw Frankie Dettori hit Cracksman on the rear eight times, and another few on the neck in the straight?
Report Big Black Cat June 2, 2018 1:25 PM BST
Cracksman decidedly unimpressive to be honest.  Soft ground shouldn't have been a problem.  The track maybe otherwise.  That race will have taken quite a bit out of him.  I hope he hasn't left his season behind there.
Report sageform June 2, 2018 7:31 PM BST
I really didn't think that Cracksman looked as fit as he has been previously and he blew hard and stood with both front feet well in front of him which is a clear sign of a horse having a really hard race. They may have thought it would be an easy race and got caught out by the ground and by SDS tactics. The other fancied horses were beaten miles so it may be a good effort in hindsight.
Meanwhile Ganayem took a big step forward at Goodwood.
Report Big Black Cat June 2, 2018 7:58 PM BST
Cracksman reported to have banged his head in the stalls-and ran in a daze apparently.
Report kincsem June 2, 2018 9:20 PM BST
What are the Frankel excuses for the last in the Oaks and the last in the Derby.?
Report Big Black Cat June 2, 2018 9:26 PM BST
It must be a bit of a worry to the team that there's still only been one individual G1 winner in Europe (albeit a very good one).
Report kincsem June 2, 2018 10:22 PM BST
And that winner, Cracksman, and the Derby winner Golden Horn, both trace to the same dam, Lora, and she traces further down her dam line to the influential mare Tessa Gillian.
It makes you wonder where they got their ability.
Report Big Black Cat June 3, 2018 4:22 PM BST
Frankel has sired this 3rd individual G1 winner as Mozu Ascot won the Yasuda Kinen in Japan.  All from his first crop.
Report sageform June 7, 2018 8:15 PM BST
Elwazir, another nice prospect for Frankel, won over 10 furlongs at Sandown this evening.
Report lingbleed June 20, 2018 12:21 AM BST
Well will he have the champion 3 yr two years in a row......great first day at royal ascot for him. Group 1 miler in the locker, and the old rouge mirage dancer give him a listed win..... crackman tomorrow
Report sageform June 21, 2018 2:27 PM BST
Mirage Dancer was a bit of an exception to the general rule that Frankel progeny don't improve with racing imo.
Report Big Black Cat June 21, 2018 8:27 PM BST
Was Cracksman just a bit ill at ease on the ground yesterday.  Or was it something more than that.  JG talking about him being very interested in the fillies coming back from the DoC stakes, and he didn't look very interested in his job?

Frankel was pretty hot himself, and it was only that he was trained by a peerless master of his trade that his greatness was allowed to be shown over his tempremnet.

No criticism of Mr Gosden implied.  One of my favourite trainers, and a thoroughly decent bloke to boot.

I'm just wondering if its all getting a bit too much for him?  These Frankels seem to have a shelf life maybe?  If its just a case of soft ground then fine, but he's not going to get it in the KG is he?

What price he gets retired and bundled off to stud?
Report Big Black Cat June 21, 2018 8:29 PM BST
Without Parole his second European G1 winner.  Eminent looks a busted flush and as for Ela...... well who knows?
Report sageform June 22, 2018 7:13 AM BST
Despite my reservations about how long his progeny last, Frankel is second to Galileo in the sire table with effectively only 2 crops running for him as I have not seen any 2yo's yet this year.
Report sageform June 22, 2018 8:57 AM BST
another good chance for a Frankel Group 1 with Veracious in the Coronation. She is the dark one in a field of classic winners.
Report sageform June 22, 2018 4:26 PM BST
Huge price for Veracious after Sir Michael's comments and she was outclassed by the winner but I collected on the place bet and if she wasn't ready today, how good is she?
Report lewisham ranger July 2, 2018 10:48 AM BST
99 percent of horse racing success is breeding, it's in the genes, you look at galileo and his stats were astonishing. once you get a blue-blood galileo you can't go wrong can you, obviously most of them go to O'Brien and he's hardly going to mess them up.
Report lewisham ranger July 2, 2018 10:50 AM BST
Frankel already started well, already got a 130 horse in cracksman early in his stud career, for all galileo's consistency as a sire he only got two rated over 130, frankel being one of them of course.
Report sageform July 6, 2018 11:54 AM BST
The next expensive Frankel 2yo has a debut today when Fox Premier lines up in the 3.00 at Sandown. Both divisions of this have some very well bred contenders. Is the Dewhurst winner running today?
Report Big Black Cat July 7, 2018 10:58 AM BST
Lewisham ranger-Galileo may have only got 2 over 130, but just look at all of those lovely Group 1 winners.....

Cracksman got his 130 under extreme conditions-look at his last couple of races-it wouldn't surprise me to see him retiring to stud before it all goes horribly wrong....
Report sageform July 14, 2018 3:14 PM BST
Two 3yo handicappers by Frankel hacked up this afternoon. Both from really good mares, trained by Owen Burrows for Sheikh Hamdan and heavily backed. Both potential Group horses. Made my day as I beat SP by a wide margin on both.
Report sageform July 20, 2018 4:56 PM BST
Surya by Frankel out of Sariska plodded home over 14 furlongs at Haydock today. He looks just right for a jumping sireHappy
Report blackbarn July 26, 2018 3:46 PM BST
Tasleya - a very nice (apparently) Hamdan/Rouget 2yo filly.  Due to run on Sunday at Deauville in a race for unraced fillies.  Nice pedigree, out of Mashoora - a Group winner and G1/2 placed.  The dam won THIS race in a canter in 2011.
Report sageform July 26, 2018 8:55 PM BST
Thanks, will look out for that.
Report blackbarn July 29, 2018 2:55 PM BST
Report sageform July 30, 2018 8:11 AM BST
Sadly with family here and Sunday lunch it slipped my mind! Well done for spotting it. Frankel 2yo's have been a bit thin on the ground so far this year.
Report blackbarn July 30, 2018 10:34 AM BST
No bother sage.   She was green but quite impressive.  Here is a link -
Report sageform August 4, 2018 10:57 AM BST
Most attention will be on Goodwood today but there are some very nice pedigrees on show elsewhere.

Newmarket 3.15 Dubai Beauty by Frankel-Minidress. Might find it hard to beat Posted by Kingman who has a good run already. Twist n Shake is another Kingman from Helena Springfield.

Newmarket 5.35. Swiss Storm by Frankel out of Swiss Lake won on debut but disappointing since. A half brother, Ghalyoon by Invincible Spirit runs in the 3.20 at Chelmsford.
Report sageform August 4, 2018 2:53 PM BST
Mekong by Frankel landed a 30k prize at Chelmsford. Home bred by Philip Newton.
Report sageform August 4, 2018 3:18 PM BST
Dubai Duty did well to beat the 2 by Kingman who were second and third.
Report sageform August 31, 2018 7:08 PM BST
Midi did well to beat Spanish Archer this evening and being out of Midday, should be in demand as a stallion even if he does not progress to Group class.
Report sageform September 11, 2018 12:51 PM BST
Just compared Frankel and Nathaniel who were contemporaries Their stud fees are wide apart. Frankel £175000, Nathaniel £20,000. How is this justified?

Frankel has Cracksman rated 130, his best to date.
17 runners with an OR between 110 and 120
13 more between 100 and 110.

Nathaniel has Enable at 128.
just 2 on 110.
12 more on 100-109

The gap is bigger than I had expected and on the face of it, Frankel is clearly superior to Nathaniel so far.
Report truehoncho September 11, 2018 4:43 PM BST
Neither are great in my opinion.
Report sageform September 12, 2018 8:15 AM BST
3 crops (really 2.5 as many 2yo's will not have run yet) is not enough to make a strong judgement. Mares are an important part of their success or failure so far (I thought that Frankel's first crop contained some that were expected to be 2yo's and have not trained on) while Nathaniel has been used to produce proper stayers.
Report lewisham ranger September 14, 2018 10:30 PM BST
I know he has late maturing types but Frankel has been v disappointing with his two year olds this season. either that or stables are holding them back for the late season newmarket maidens as in fairness he's had very few runners.

that filly yesterday bombed out in the may hill as well.
Report sageform October 26, 2018 3:34 PM BST
Outbox yet another late maturing Frankel stayer. Only ever exerted himself when asked and looked 20/1 in running but won easily. He will go up to 105 at least on that effort.
Report sageform October 27, 2018 10:07 AM BST
Another important test for Frankel today when £2.5m filly King Power runs at Newbury.
Report deadbrain59 November 9, 2018 11:03 AM GMT
frankelina haggas
Report roadrunner46 November 9, 2018 8:10 PM GMT
so frankel who continues to rewrite the record books as a sire as well as a race horse. has reached the landmark total of 20
northern hemisphere group winners this year, faster than any other european stallion in the history of the pattern.Wink
Report sageform November 26, 2018 8:56 AM GMT
for whatever reason Frankel seems almost incapable of producing AW winners. Three of his progeny have run recently, all favourites, and none have won. Frown has been favourite at least 3 times but is still a maiden. Frankel's GB flat wins score for Jan, Feb, Mar and Nov in 2018 has been zero so far. John Gosden seems to be taking a while to catch on to this as he has run 2 well bred newcomers in November.
Report sageform November 28, 2018 2:49 PM GMT
Frisella the latest Frankel 2yo trained by Gosden to get beaten when well backed. They just don't handle AW.
Report sageform January 23, 2019 8:47 AM GMT
Still just 1 GB win since November 1. Not many runners but plenty of beaten favourites.
Report deadbrain59 February 21, 2019 11:36 AM GMT
gantier runs tonight,woolly,11/4 handicap,has a derby entry.
Report roadrunner46 February 21, 2019 7:36 PM GMT

Feb 21, 2019 -- 5:36AM, deadbrain59 wrote:

gantier runs tonight,woolly,11/4 handicap,has a derby entry.

Laugh war tiger the best bet of the dayWink

Report roadrunner46 February 21, 2019 8:33 PM GMT
and the runner up LTO  to war tiger hoses up less than an hour laterLaugh
Report sageform March 1, 2019 8:32 PM GMT
Tiger Eye gets a second AW win today so my theory that Frankel offspring can't operate on AW is wearing thin.
Report roadrunner46 March 2, 2019 1:51 PM GMT
its been a busy week for frankel's progeny on the AW the impossible 1-2-3Laugh
Report deadbrain59 March 3, 2019 8:43 AM GMT
frizella entry Chelmsford Thursday,k abdulla
Report deadbrain59 March 6, 2019 7:12 PM GMT
Report deadbrain59 March 7, 2019 8:38 PM GMT
WON 1/4
Report sageform March 16, 2019 3:00 PM GMT
Tiger Eye going for the treble this evening.
Report roadrunner46 March 16, 2019 7:40 PM GMT
if only treasure me had a 10lb claimer on board she might of got her nose in front todayLaugh f/c 8.58
Report deadbrain59 April 28, 2019 4:24 PM BST
master of reality won 33/1
Report sageform May 8, 2019 3:24 PM BST
Mehdaayih looks a classic contender. Also a couple of very nice Frankels ran in France at the weekend.
Report sageform May 24, 2019 5:55 PM BST
Frankel really needs one of his 3 contenders to win the Oaks as his progeny are not quite cutting it at the top level this year.
Report ImSoLuckyLucky! May 31, 2019 7:36 PM BST

Oaks winner with Frankie on board

Report sageform June 17, 2019 6:43 PM BST
Shammah (6.10) was a relatively rare thing these days. A Frankel 2yo winner over 5 furlongs.
Report sageform June 18, 2019 5:10 PM BST
And then next day he sires the winner of the Ascot stakes over 2.5 miles on soft!
Report Big Black Cat June 18, 2019 5:27 PM BST
Bet that won't be on the flyer for next year though eh sageform? GrinGrin
Report sageform June 22, 2019 1:28 PM BST
Possibly not but if you had a 6 furlong, a 10 furlong and a 14 furlong winning mare which would you send to Frankel? He seems to add stamina to the progeny of a mare so I would send the sprinter if I only had one nomination (theoretical of course)
Report Big Black Cat June 22, 2019 5:16 PM BST
You know that Coolmore have had much success breeding his dad to speedy mares. I'd go the same way TBH.

Elite bred Marlinka ( dam of Marsha) to Frankel, so I hope so!
Report sageform July 12, 2019 3:11 PM BST
Kings Advice at Newmarket was 50th win for Frankel in GB this year. Yet another over 14 furlongs. They seem to get better with age and distance.
Report A_T July 13, 2019 10:24 AM BST
G1 Falmouth Stakes winner
Report sageform July 13, 2019 7:45 PM BST
Not a great Group 1 but they all count.
Report sageform August 16, 2019 2:27 PM BST
Frankel 2yo's have been quiet so far but Quadrilateral made a very promising start at Newbury.
Report sageform August 24, 2019 12:45 PM BST
Frankel has 4 shots at the Ebor, all with realistic chances.
Report sageform August 24, 2019 3:06 PM BST
Correction 6 Frankels in the Ebor!
Report A_T August 25, 2019 11:18 AM BST
Logician looks a good one for next year
Report truehoncho August 25, 2019 3:38 PM BST
He does seem to get plenty of slow horses out of fast mares. Stamina seems his forte.
Report Big Black Cat August 25, 2019 10:06 PM BST
That's bad news if you've let him cover your 5f listed winner and dam of a dual G1 winning 5f sprinter!
Report sageform August 27, 2019 8:58 PM BST
Stamina and going no faster than good.
Report sageform September 17, 2019 6:09 PM BST
Deal A Dollar was the 71st GB win for Frankel putting him sixth in my sire table based on 2019 GB flat wins. Very good score for a fourth season sire with 3.5 months still to go. Bated Breath 63 and Nathaniel 54 are next among that crop. Yet again, a Frankel is showing stamina in abundance.
Report sageform September 22, 2019 10:05 AM BST
Quadrilateral looks one of the best Frankel 2yo's from this crop. A first classic winner perhaps.
Report A_T September 22, 2019 1:32 PM BST
apart from the Oaks and St Leger
Report sageform September 22, 2019 2:30 PM BST
Sorry, I meant the Guineas but thanks for reminding me.
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